Project #4: My own Natalie Portmans Yey! (90% finished, [Done for now])

[Raptor550]

So I am replacing the raptors with Natalies. everything I'm using seems to be breaking down, I went to the hardware store and they had 12" wood clamps for $2.00 each so I bought 4. 2 of which broke immediately on first use. Somethings also wrong with the router I borrowed so that's no good. the last two holes I did where with a drill and a file *grumbles* but I am pretty happy with how they look considering all the hang-ups.


Here are the the main pieces cut. I am using wkhanna design because frankly I love the shape and wouldn't improve upon it (within my woodworking skill). About that, I am still pretty novice at woodworking, and as an artist by trade, its pretty aggravating having an eye for detail and no skills to back it up.



I was able to round the insides alright, and I have thick heavy MDF backing the baffles.



Here they are as the stand now. Some wood filler is drying on one of the hole where the guide slipped off and I cut about 3-4mm to wide, D'oh! They will be Red just like Bill's but I was thinking about maybe putting sparkly black granite on the tops. Either that or a 4 inch wide stripe of natural wood.

[PoorboyMike]

Looking good Raptor! I really like that design too. :T

[Raptor550]

DOES ANYBODY KNOW HOW TO FIX ROUTERS HERE?

or at least troubleshoot?

[---k---]

Well, it really depends on what is broken, no?

[PoorboyMike]

DOES ANYBODY KNOW HOW TO FIX ROUTERS HERE?

or at least troubleshoot?

Like --k-- says, it really depends on what is wrong. Can you describe the problem? What brand is it?

[Raptor550]

The brand is Ryobi.



right now it wont turn on, but when It does turn on you can hear its on because it has a super quiet electric hum like when you leave a TV on but lower pitched. it will spin up and try to work sometimes successfully if you:
-jostle it
-tilt it on its side
-leave it alone for a few hours
-try to change the bit out forgetting its on because it acted dead as a door nail before
-vainly pretend like its working by running the bit along the desires edge to be beveled (spinning the head can get it started)
-pray

sometimes when I flick the switch it will just barely start up and while its winding up I put it next to wood, if it feels the resistance it will come to life full speed for the durration it is chewing on something.

[ThomasW]

Unless it's simply the brushes (doubtful) this isn't a DIY fix. Get it to a repair center or toss it and by a new one.

Does using a different speed setting at start up have an effect?

[Raptor550]

I just checked, changeing the speed apears to have no effect

[---k---]

http://www.amazon.com/Hitachi-KM12VC-Horsepower-Variable-Collets/dp/B0002ZZWX8/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/102-0217405-4029749?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1185805804&sr=8-2

I like mine. Good mid-size router. Great price, I paid a lot more at Lowes.

Looks like the big Hitachi finally went up in price.

[Brian Walter]

From your description is sounds somewhat like a loose or badly worn brush(s), but I agree with Thomas, take it in and have it checked out or simply buy a better one. It'll be hard for you to return the broken one to whomever you borrowed it from in it's present condition.

[Dennis H]

The sloping baffle looks nice but there may be a problem. How high is the tweeter above the floor? MTMs should have both woofers at equal distance from your ear. Depending on your chair height, you may need to tip them forward a bit to get the best sound.

[Raptor550]

your right Dennis, the tweeters sit kinda low, allbiet higher than you are seeing because of the 3 inch stands.

I took a lazer level and mesured and ear hight should be reached at about 6-9 feet away sitting in a standard sized couch. Im hopeing that Nat P's have a flexible sweet spot. I will get them as close to ideally positioned but I wont fret it if they are 6 inches higher or lower then my ear.

[ThomasW]

your right Dennis, the tweeters sit kinda low, allbiet higher than you are seeing because of the 3 inch stands.

That's not the point. As Dennis indicated the NatP crossover is designed (optimized) for a non-sloping baffle. Having one woofer farther back than the other screws up the time alignment of the drivers. The problem is that of 'phase' discrepancy since the sound from the bottom driver will arrive before the upper woofer.

This is why we don't encourage 'innovation' or 'creativity' when people are building the designs in the sticky threads....

[wkhanna]

The sloping baffle looks nice but there may be a problem. How high is the tweeter above the floor? MTMs should have both woofers at equal distance from your ear. Depending on your chair height, you may need to tip them forward a bit to get the best sound.

Raptor is using my cabnet design, which has a 5 deg slope to the baffle.
I, too was concerned how this might degraded the SQ.

I find that my Nat P's have a fairly forgiving sweet spot in vertical dispersion, but my design put the tweeter right at ear-level at my seating position when a line perpendicular to the baffle at the center of the tweeter was run to that location. And as far as time alignment (or should I say mis-alignment) of the woofers due to the sloped baffle, I propped the rears of the stands to make the baffle perpendicular to the floor and my ears could not really notice any change in SQ. Actual measurements may tell a different story, but I have yet to purchase the required tools to do so.

[Raptor550]

I had some trapizoid floorstanders in Seattle and a few degrees tilt is very hard to hear, I could really tell the differnce that much so Im not to worried about it. how long was your port length again bill?

[speedle]

Regarding this little debate, just a question re: ThomasW's answer earlier. Aren't things OK as long as both woofers (and all 3 drivers for that matter) are the same distance from your ear, and your head is perpendicular to the baffle in the vertical dimension, regardless of the actual angle vis a vis the floor?

I have found MTM's to be fairly sensitive to this issue, and was concerned with my setup, on top of the bass bins. But, since I am leaning back slightly in the chair when I listen, and both woofers are the same distance from a nominal location where I sit, i.e. my ears. I always believed it would be alright.

[Dennis H]

Aren't things OK as long as both woofers (and all 3 drivers for that matter) are the same distance from your ear, and your head is perpendicular to the baffle in the vertical dimension, regardless of the actual angle vis a vis the floor?

Yup.

[Raptor550]

Well I finished the crossovers today





You can take a look to see if it looks right.



I am using cardboard and then nailing it to wood later, cardboard seems nice because you can make the holes really easy. One of my friends said that it could catch fire, I guess maybe that could happen. But I can rest my solder on cardboard and it wont take to flames so I am not too worried. Should I be?

I scored some size 12 w/g speaker wire from habitat for humanity. 12 feet for 50 cents. not bad for being a solid copper wire. For the tweeters I'm using an old extension chord. Its 20/16 AWG I assume that's strands/size. Do you think these wires will work well?



I also attached the tops, I am waiting for the glue to dry, tomarrow I chamfer the baffle with 45's. I want these at least playing tomarrow. It looks like untill I can get the router running I wont have a ported box. I wonder how it will sound sealed?

[JonMarsh]

Those inductors and the larger caps are heavy.




Your layout looks OK, but corrugated cardboard as a base material for the crossover really concerns me - my usual construction is on 1/4" HDF (Home depot or other big box stores), parts hot glued down, some wiring hot glued down (vibration can cause stress cracks over time, especially with foil inductors, for example). The resulting assembly is very inert, dead, and won't be prone to micorphonics or physical issues if you're moving the speakers or even if you knock them over (hopefully on a carpeted floor).


These images are from the Modula MTM, the big brother to the NatlieP; the crossover boards can be mounted with industrial grade velcro, or if you test carefully before installing (with frequency sweeps connected to drivers in the cabinet through the port), then you may just hot glue them down. Don't use screws (unless they're brass) or especially nails- Nails are ferromagnetic and may interact with the crossover coils.

[ThomasW]

I am useing cardbord and then nailing it to wood later, cardbord seems nice because you can make the holes really easy. One of my friends said that it could catch fire, I guess maby that could happen. But I can rest my solder on cardbord and it wont take to flames so I am not too worried. Should I be?

A friend's adopted son turned the volume control on the Aragon 8008X3 amp powering his MTM's to "11". The result was ignition of the power resistors in the crossovers and melting of the dacron damping into black blobs inside the box. Fortunately the design was a sealed box so the fire self-extinguished do to lack of O2. I shutter to think what would happen should this occur with a cardboard substrate for the crossovers and a ported box...

[Hdale85]

Cardboard mixed with any electronics is a nono in my mind.

[Raptor550]

Oddly enough before I ever made a crossover I assumed caps were really heavy, but for their size they seem surprisingly light, inductors on the other hand...

Don't use screws (unless they're brass) or especially nails- Nails are ferromagnetic and may interact with the crossover coils.

wow, thats really good to know, I never had any idea that microvibrations could do that but it makes sense. I have some brass screws I think. Thanks so much Jon for looking over my layout. looks like I now have to find some hot glue. About the cardboard, do you think their is some sort of flame retardant in spay form I could use on it? Also, I see you are using GE caps, where do you get those? why do you use them?

A friend's adopted son turned the volume control on the Aragon 8008X3 amp powering his MTM's to "11". The result was ignition of the power resistors in the crossovers and melting of the dacron damping into black blobs inside the box. Fortunately the design was a sealed box so the fire self-extinguished do to lack of O2. I shutter to think what would happen should this occur with a cardboard substrate for the crossovers and a ported box...

8O, All I have to say is wow. I don't know how I am going to take my crossovers apart. for now my Nats are going to be un ported due to technical difficulties.

ps.

Ported boxes lined with glass are not cannons shooting particles into space

I know this is from another forum, but I laughed pretty hard when I read this Thomas.

[ThomasW]

There's no fireproofing spray, throw away the cardboard and mount the parts on Masonite or similar material.

The GE caps come from a Madisound closeout special. It's been going on for years so they only have a few values left.

FWIW high-end caps like the AudioCap Theda are VERY heavy, and VERY expensive.

[Raptor550]

what about some good 'ol asbestos? maby I could make my speakers into asbestos cannons

I just finished champhering and sanding.

[Raptor550]

Can you say: "Ohhh yeah!?"..


I added some more internal bracing and put everything together. For now I am finished. when I get some more money I need to put some finish on them. I will also need to port them. I had them playing while I had the bottom cracked because I was messing with them and they had great bass, so I will have that to look forward to. I had them open because in my haste I had switched the woofers and tweeter :E -that's a lesson on the value of crossovers right there, they played the absolute least ideal parts for each speaker. If machines could vomit, I'm sure that's what they would sound like.

In the mean time they sound excellent and they are still being broken in! Many thanks to the Dark Lord and the Empire, this will surely crush those rebel scum and there little dogs too! Thank you Jon and Thomas, and the rest of the gang on here. ;x( Also thanks to @Wkhenna, for letting me be your slanty-Nat pattawan.
Enough people have described the NatP sound on here so I will just say this: Its all true, go build one now! Here's some pictures for the kids.







May the danceing Nanna ever show my joy:dancenana:

[JonMarsh]

Glad to hear you've got your tunes going, and thanks for the kind words.

I'm still working on how to shoe horn 8 lb. of stuff in this new design into a 5 lb. cabinet... :W

Jon

[Raptor550]

Have you tried a mallet? whats the smaller size for?

[Hdale85]

I think he's talking about the 3 way crossover that has to fit into the PE 1 Cu Ft enclosure.

[TacoD]

Wow great build, just put a clear coat on the cabinets. The wood stain is already very nice.

[wkhanna]

With plagiarism being the greatest form of flattery, I must say those don't look bad at all.
I do hope you got rid of the cardboard! That is a real No-No!
I was glad to share my AutoCad files and the few things I learned while building them, and hope you enjoy your 'Slanty-Nat's' as much as I do mine

[PoorboyMike]

What happened to your socks?



:B :B

[wkhanna]

Oh gosh! I hope he didn't mount his xo's on them!

[Hdale85]

No but he's xo's are still mounted to the cardboard for now he says. Said he couldn't get the components off.

[PoorboyMike]

Maybe he wears wool socks and placed them below the xovers as a fire retardant?

[Hdale85]

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Raptor550]

Har-Har-Har guys, The Nats blew my socks off. ...DUH! :roll:

Anyways I played metal-core on my nats nearly as loud as my amp would go for two hours ;b> , after that point while they were still playing I opened up the bottom and all the resistors were not at all hot. and this is in 101 degree weather! I could even touch the copper that would normally stay scorching hot for 30 seconds after heat was removed. Dennis did help me find some flame retardant spray. $15 a bottle. So due to the lack of warmth in the resistors, the unbearable loudness I pushed them to and the availability of fire retardant I think I will be OK.

I will however go back and glue all my pieces down because what Jon said about microviberations does sound like a problem.

Sadly my computer is having a problem with a corrupted system file so I am having to use my Danon CD changer (MY big library is gone) grrr. my computer runs RAID so getting the windows repair disk to work is a royal pain. *grr again*

[Operandi]

Under normal operating conditions fire isn't a likely problem but the cardboard deteriorating over time would be a concern to me.

Oh, and great looking speakers, are those brass screws on the baffle?

[Raptor550]

yup brass screws, thanks for the complement