My Natalie P Journey Continues

[wkhanna]

With my most sincere thanks to The Maestro (Jon Marsh) I now have the blueprint to, as The Maestro so eloquently put it, 'Dude UP' my Natalie Portmans.

Why this man, with so, so much on his plate would give up the time, effort & genius to help us out is simply beyond my comprehension.

Thank You, Thank You & Thank You a thousand more times, Jon. ;x(

NatalieP Deluxe for Bill....

OK, making some progress this Saturday, my comp day yesterday got blown off by my boss, but today is wife his probably keeping him busy and at bay... :W


So, what we've got here is an updated schematic proposal for Bill, considering his plan to use the nice and spendy Scanspeak tweeter instead, which is about 4 dB more efficient. And some nice shiny new expensive caps in the crossover, too. Not being one to leave well enough alone, I also have dreamed up a more deluxe version, using a zobel network for the tweeter, which makes things a little more happy in the tweeter roll off. Sort of the OCD approach to a NatalieP, as if one really wanted an Ardent, but was settling because that dip Jonmarsh can't ever seem to finish the Ardent design, and besides, your wife wouldn't approve that much money for crossover parts!

So, first the "standard" upgrade, without the zobel network added:







Quite respectable performance for a budget setup (a few more things tweaked slightly in component values), but no way to fix that unsightly bump in the response of the tweeter that arises from it's Fs impedance peak around 500 Hz.


Next, the slightly higher priced spread:





Mmm,mmm, good!




And just for good measure, the usual sanity check with a reverse connection of the tweeter:



Nothing to complain about there...


well, you could probably build this just on my LspCAD sims and things SHOULD work out just fine, but if you're not in an all fired hurry, I should be able to get parts on hand in early October to build a test channel, (excepting the SS tweeter, which will be a slightly less sensitive version) and build and test this out by Halloween. Right now my discretionary budget for September is tied up in a couple of parts orders for the Isiris midrange re-build, and in a ludicrous amount of new gear to support the music server- as they say, I'm all tapped out! Can't even afford a new guitar this month, not one!!! :roll:

[Hdale85]

Dayton SS6620? Is this some new driver? lol

[JonMarsh]

Bill's Plan, maybe mine?

Actually, Bill is planning on using the SS D2904-7100- and what I did was cobble up a simulation model based on measurements of a similar SS tweeter (the D3004-6620, which I have, and have measured ). But I adjusted the sensitivity to reflect what the 7100 does, which is about 94 dB SPL for 2.83V.



All of this got me thinking, because I do have the original Modula MTM enclosures around, with the front panels NOT glued in, and the RS180's. Now, I think I have some Bamboo panels that could be milled for new front panels- and I believe the old front panels are NOT glued in. So, it might be possible for me to build up an actual pair of the "new, improved, deluxe, duded up NatalieP", which I could use as monitors for my music learning and recording activities I'm getting setup. And that way, we could prove out the design under supervision, too.

It depends on Bill's timing, because the issues for cash flow for parts still exists, and though I have the 6620's, for true correlation, I should get a pair of 7100's.

But a piano black and bamboo MTM set might be just the ticket.

And darn, I found a good deal on an Epiphone Lucille on eBay this evening, too!

[Hdale85]

I believe Bill said he's not rushing them, something about by years end. Although at the same time it appears that Dan already ordered the drivers and enclosures? lol

[JonMarsh]

could make sense to buy drivers now...

I believe Bill said he's not rushing them, something about by years end. Although at the same time it appears that Dan already ordered the drivers and enclosures? lol

If Dan bought the silver version of the 71000 while it was available on sale at Madisound, then that would make sense to have moved quickly on them. At the moment, they're out of stock, and what the price would be on back orders is an open question.

For this project, a souped up NatP, I probably would have suggested the air circa 6600, at lower cost, but then the 71000 at the price at Madisound was about the same.

Regardless, your comments are helpful- sounds like the time frame I can muster will be useful for them. Most likely the only tweaks needed might be the value of R3. Heck, I'm even thinking about throwing the set of 6640 Be tweeters at this; I can't for the life of me figure out what ScanSpeak is thinking with the 7140, as it doesn't appear to have an excursion or distortion benefit, the area is the same, it just has a much more screwed up frequency response and a bigger faceplate!

But for off the shelf response from 1800 Hz to 20 kHz, the 71000 looks like the part to go with. very good measured performance at 30 degrees off axis, too- getting out to 15 kHz is not trivial.

[Hdale85]

So are you saying you think the 6600 was a more appropriate choice? The 7100 is a good bit more than the 6600, like 75 bucks more or so? Or the 7100 is better, just more expensive?

[wkhanna]

Neither one of us has yet ordered the SS D2904-7100's, or the 'nice shiny new expensive caps' or the Mundorf M-Resist Supreme resistors.
Dan has the Cabinets & the RS180's only.
So any 'adjustments' will not effect our builds at this time.
Our timetable is flexible.
We are a patient lot, us padawans.

[Evil Twin]

So are you saying you think the 6600 was a more appropriate choice? The 7100 is a good bit more than the 6600, like 75 bucks more or so? Or the 7100 is better, just more expensive?

The main "better" of the 7100 is 2 db higher sensitivity. Souled up motor, basically. Unless the distortion is also better than even the 6620, I do not believe the slight increase in measured smoothness and off axis response is worthwhile- just room placement and lack of room treatment could completely negate the advantage.

However, Mr.Marsh and other might say, "If some's good, more is better, and too much is just enough!"

[Hdale85]

Well I'm not building the speaker, so it's obviously up to them lol, but seems if the difference is likely to be negligible then why not save the bucks?

[speedle]

Very exciting thread! I guess I should start saving up for tweeters. :-)

[JonMarsh]

Well I'm not building the speaker, so it's obviously up to them lol, but seems if the difference is likely to be negligible then why not save the bucks?

One man's negligible may be another man's mountain... it all depends on the rest of the system implementation and setup. Me, my favorite SS tweeter is the 6640, but that's even more spendy. The 71000 is very smooth and has quite nice 30 degree performance- similar to my diamond tweeters with their hidden little deflector.

[wkhanna]

The original options given us were the Scan Speak D3004/6600-00, the D2904/7100-03, and the Beryllium D3004/6640-00.
We decided on the 7100s, given we would only be using the best grade xo components but were not ready to pony up over $1k just for tweeters despite the bragging rights that come with them.

With that said, it seems a bit pound wise but penny foolish to worry about saving a $160 on drivers (6600's vs 7100"s) when we are incorporating the 'good stuff' in the xo's.

I guess for me, it has as much to do with matching the effort to the budget. I am a middle of the road kind of guy. & I don't see the practicality of putting the most expensive tire on my daily-driver, but at the same time I would not put some eccono-brand on when I deal with a 90 mile commute each day.

Still, maybe not a fair comparison. The bottom line is, I know I am going to have to live with these for a while (even if some day I complete something like the 'Three Way' or 'Ardent'). And if I were to consider anything in the retail market today, based solely on every speaker I have heard over the last 8 years that would fit in my room, stretch my budget to absolute maximum & require a good while to put away enough to purchase them, it would be the Joseph Audio Pulsar. While the JA's may sound slightly different than the 'duded-up' NatP's, I doubt I will not be just as happy with the NatP's, if not more so. I say this based on how my current Natalie Portman's compare to the JA's I just heard a few months ago. For whatever reason, my 'Twins' (NatP's) complement all my current equipment & the room they are in incredibly well. It make sense to me when they say, 'do no harm' & if it's not broken do not fix it'. I'll upgrade these the best my budget will allow for now, while still incorporating my duel subs. Then latter, some day down the road, maybe a three-way build will happen, but I will be good with what I have for now.

These are going to be my 2-ch music transducers for a long time. Essentially, it is going to be just me, sitting in the same place every day, wanting to get the most enjoyment I can from my music. I am not willing to take any shortcuts that I will regret a year or two from now. If Jon thinks this is the best course to take in this price range & form factor, then that's all I need to know.

[JonMarsh]

Wise outlook, IMO. :T

[speedle]

I recall reading something on Dave's speaker pages that the 6600 was a better value for the money. Is the 7100 more than the 6600?

[wkhanna]

Is the 7100 more than the 6600?

By ~ $80.

But as Jon put it, sometimes value is in the 'ear' of the beholder. :W

[speedle]

I agree, yes. I have an intense interest in this thread because I intend to totally copy the result!

[JonMarsh]

By ~ $80.

But as Jon put it, sometimes value is in the 'ear' of the beholder. :W

Bill, check out the link by Jonasz to Troels's newest tweeter tests. Great choice of parts, most of my favorite SS tweeters, including the 71000.

[benchtester]

I recall reading something on Dave's speaker pages that the 6600 was a better value for the money. Is the 7100 more than the 6600?

I love my 6600. But my first low-order 2-way needed extra crossover parts to pull down the low-end extension. If I bought Jon's expensive level of components, the 7100 would almost save money. :W

[JonMarsh]

Update with Link

Just adding the link to Troels here:

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/ScanSpeak-tweeters.htm

I'm still looking at all those curves and wondering if he doesn't have an above 20 kHz roll off compared with my ACCO Pacific instrumentation mic, which is pretty much flat to 50 kHz. Update: OK, I found this little fine print note where he acknowledges that his CLIO mic is down -1db at 20 KHz and -5db at 30 kHz. Alles klar.

I still have a working CLIO system but haven't used it in ages... Fuzzmeasure rules! :W

The WORST part of this is that he's piqued my interest in testing the 71000 AND the 714000.

[Rbrockman]

I've decided to participate in the journey as well. This build seems to meet most all of my needs at the moment, and will be a nice upgrade from my current Modula MT 2-channel system .

I would like to begin ordering some parts, while realizing that some of this is still a work in progress. If I were to build these as sealed cabinets - would anything need to change to optimize the build? I'll be using subs to augment them.

Is it safe to order the following?
*) PE 1.0 cu/ft curved cabinets (plans include strengthening these)
*) RS180 woofers
*) SS D2904-7100 tweeters - would like to ensure there are no plans to change these....
*) cross-over components - I understand a few small resistor tweaks may still be required

What wattage should R3, R4, and R8 be? I've cooked these before in my Modula's, so want to ensure they are large enough.

I'd be interested in any thoughts on "no compromize" xo components.

[wkhanna]

Excellent!

This is my spreadsheet that, as far as I know, is still valid (minor resistor tweaks aside as you noted)

I am modifying my existing xo, so not all the ox components are listed but these are the ones being 'duded up'.

6 ea 8.2 uF 800V Jantzen Superior Z PE

2 ea 2.2 uF 800V Jantzen Superior Z PE

2 ea 10 uF 400V Jantzen Z-Standard PE

2 ea 2.2 uF 400V Jantzen Z-Standard PE

2 ea 1.8 ohm 20 Watt RMS Mundorf M-Resist Supreme Mad

2 ea D2904/7100-03 4 Ohm ScanSpeak Revelator Mad

Keep us posted!

[Hdale85]

So roughly 300 in crossover parts upgrades?

[JonMarsh]

Thanks for putting the list together, Bill.

I checked and I do still have the piano black enclosures, mine are much older, date from the original project design, but I can probably get bamboo board at my local Rockler in Pleasant Hill and do new custom front panels. Will look at ordering the tweeters in November- too much going on this month already!

Actually, I've got some giant bamboo cutting boards in my wish list at Amazon that are big enough to carve the front panels out from (24" long). 2" thick... appeals to my sense of massive front panels... :W



Vegetables not included...

[Rbrockman]

Putting together my xo BOM. C12, the 60uF is a fairly large cap. 68uF is common and 12% from the recommended value - close enough?

Currently looking at a 68uF Clarity ESA here. Any other cap recommendations for C12?

Also, do R1-R4 all need to be 20W?

Thanks!

[JonMarsh]

C12 is just part of a zobel for tweeter impedance control at resonance- not directly in the signal path, so a more standard cap is OK. Considering Fs can vary a bit too, and this is a fairly board band impedance rise, 68 is probably fine, though 60 is optimum- combine 27uf and 33 uF (Dayton Metalized Polypropylene, for example, total for both is ~$24.50).

[speedle]

Yippee! Has the circuit layout changed at all, or just the values as stated above? OR did I miss that somehow?

[JonMarsh]

Just values. Topology is the same.

[Rbrockman]

C12 is just part of a zobel for tweeter impedance control at resonance- not directly in the signal path, so a more standard cap is OK.

Thank you for the guidance on C12 - that provides for some significant savings.

Do you have input on the wattage best suited for R3, R4, R8, and R9?

[JonMarsh]

10W minimum. But if you're going for an upgraded design like this, I'd suggest using the 20W Mundorf's - they're now my favorites. Higher power resistors will have a more stable value under higher power dissipation stress- you shouldn't see any issues here, but let's just say the only resistors I've heard that are as transparent (but which cost much more) are Duelunds. YMMV, of course, and associated equipment and all that certainly has an impact.

[speedle]

I would be much, much obliged if someone could provide a link to the tweeter in, say the Madisound, PE, or Meniscus catalog. Seriously, I'm a wee bit confused, and that's not a place to be when dropping the large coin.

[JonMarsh]

At Madisound. Note very smooth overall response and excellent 30 degree off axis response (green).

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/scanspeak-soft-dome-tweeters/scanspeak-revelator-d2904/7100-03-wide-surround-black-face-plate/

Troel's test for dispersion of the 71000:



You can also get very good results with the less expensive SS Air circa D3004/6600-

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/scanspeak-soft-dome-tweeters/scanspeak-illuminator-d3004/6600-aircirc-tweeter-textile-dome/

It has about 2 dB lower sensitivity, and will require a slight adjustment to the attenuation network. Easy to work out.

[speedle]

Thanks for that! I'll have a look and see what we can do here.

[wkhanna]

I found this after digging around some old files of my original build....thought it might be helpful.....

[JonMarsh]

I'm pretty sure that's buried in the thread somewhere, too... a shorter cleaned up build thread or a little editing on the existing one may be in order some day.

[wkhanna]

I'm pretty sure that's buried in the thread somewhere, too...

That is in fact where I originally sourced it.
For those of us who are not as adept at reading schematics (ME's like me), it proved V useful.


Also note that the two RS180 woofers are wired in parallel.

[Finleyville]

For those of us who are not as adept at reading schematics (ME's like me), it proved V useful.

Don't sell yourself short wkhanna! If you can dodge a wrench you can read a schematic. er...or something like that. :P

[Rbrockman]

There is no progress without a picture.....

A bit of fall color to compliment the new Nat P crossovers

[JonMarsh]

THAT is a great picture! The artist in my GF will appreciate this, me thinks, and the photographer in me appreciates it greatly! Thanks for posting! :T

[wkhanna]

Those look gorgeous!

Nice photo, too.
V creative!

My progress is has been hampered by funds diverted to a digital clocking project, a power conditioner purchase (thanks Dan!) & 4 new tires for my car.


But you have motivated me to get my xo parts order placed ASAP!

[Rbrockman]

Motivation was the goal! I now have all of the drivers for this project, but PE is back ordered on the piano black curved boxes so I'm now in waiting mode.

In the mean time, I'm listening to the old but still very good Modula MT's. Even thinking about upgrading the crossover components in them as well!

Recently I upgraded some of my source components which have helped these little 2 ways really sing. I had been using an old usb->spdif converter which I had always thought was a bottleneck in my system. I am now using a WaveIO board which gives me usb->I2S directly into a TP Buffalo DAC at 32 bit-perfect playback at up to 384 kHz. Audiophile adjectives aside, this now sounds great!

[JonMarsh]

Motivation was the goal! I now have all of the drivers for this project, but PE is back ordered on the piano black curved boxes so I'm now in waiting mode.

In the mean time, I'm listening to the old but still very good Modula MT's. Even thinking about upgrading the crossover components in them as well!

Recently I upgraded some of my source components which have helped these little 2 ways really sing. I had been using an old usb->spdif converter which I had always thought was a bottleneck in my system. I am now using a WaveIO board which gives me usb->I2S directly into a TP Buffalo DAC at 32 bit-perfect playback at up to 384 kHz. Audiophile adjectives aside, this now sounds great!

good source components are SO important! :T Congratulations on the upgrades! :B

[wkhanna]

good source components are SO important! :T Congratulations on the upgrades! :B

+1

I have read a lot of happy reports from TP Buffalo DAC owners.

[Rbrockman]

I'm happy to report that these new Nat P (v2) speakers are alive and making some beautiful music. I built these in the PE gloss black boxes - they've been backordered and just came in this week.

What I noticed upon playing the first track is how smooth that tweeter is. Wow - I'm liking this already! However, the tweeter sounds much more recessed than with the Modula MT I'm comparing it to. I matched levels and hear a distinctly louder upper range on the Modula MT. Maybe I'm running the tweeters too hot on my Modula build.

I'll let them play for a while the next couple of days and then provide some further commentary on what I'm hearing. Might have to break out the measuring gear....

[wkhanna]

Excellent progress!

I am bogged down with holiday tasks & expenses along with my rubidium clock project.
I predict a flurry of activity in the new year.

[JonMarsh]

I'm happy to report that these new Nat P (v2) speakers are alive and making some beautiful music. I built these in the PE gloss black boxes - they've been backordered and just came in this week.

What I noticed upon playing the first track is how smooth that tweeter is. Wow - I'm liking this already! However, the tweeter sounds much more recessed than with the Modula MT I'm comparing it to. I matched levels and hear a distinctly louder upper range on the Modula MT. Maybe I'm running the tweeters too hot on my Modula build.

I'll let them play for a while the next couple of days and then provide some further commentary on what I'm hearing. Might have to break out the measuring gear....

Glad to hear about the progress! :T

Feel free to do some adjustment to taste with the resistor padding levels- production tweeters can vary 1-2 dB in sensitivity. I have some Modula MTM's that I'm going to convert to this project for the music room (playing music, on instruments, that is) pretty soon, so I'll be setting up to do some correlation measurements also.

And most important, we need pictures! :W