My First DIY: RS180/TBFCG - a progress report and journal

[Raptor550]

Hello, this is here im going to be posting my stuff.

Our story thus far:
After moving to Ohio I had no sound setup, and virtually no money. After staring at the madisound frequency responses for an amount of time I would rather not disclose I found some speakers I wanted. While earching for information on these speakers, a kevlar SS and a VifaXT I stumbled onto some forums. After much staring at more graphs and charts and sifting though a TON of audiophile nut-job ramblings, reviews, and squabbling written by people (often with more money than reason) I found Zaph, my web vicarious tutor! I was led by his charts and graphs and my pocket to the Dayton RS180 and Vifa D26 -err make that Seas TBFCG. From there Came to this forum, and I had high hopes for Jon Marsh's Modula MT -but my wallet book was weak...

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It looks sound, cost effective, and if I really want to, it uses many of the same parts as the Modula MT so I always have the option to switch between designs.

So far, I have a cannibalized KLH box gutted and refinished. As you can see I damaged the face a bit in enlarging the hole for the seas tweeter, I've never used a jigsaw before and this one had a bent blade.



I also have speaker stands nearly finished, they are cut, beveled, and stained They only need be assembled.



Off I go to PE to get my stuff!
Dayton:

Zaphs Dayton RS180/ Seas TBFCG measurements:

[Raptor550]

The Diagram

Now to take on those crossovers! Armed with my precision layout, and a pinch of reckless abandon I'm ready to go!



As you can clearly see, from the diagram: the swilrygig goes to the thingamabopper that meets up with the woofer and the other whirligig

-meanwhile-

The tweeters "+" splits off into two doodads one goes into dirt while the other becomes a thingymajig and a swirly, its only the swirly that gets power.
Assign some values to all of it and "viola" thats ammore'!:g>

[Raptor550]

Construction

Jay_WJ: it's only the "thingymajig" that gets power (+) in the tweeter circuit, rather than "swirly." Isn't it?

-I stand corrected.

So now after After desperately searching for this inductor placement map(Thanks Chas), and getting a very foolishly burnt finger I have my crossovers! TAA DAA:


You can see how it flows with this diagram. (one resister is on the bottom):



Many people let me know this was a no-no (thanks guys):



"Connectors should never touch even if they are shpped pretty like that!"
Now to test them!

[Raptor550]

1st days impressions:

I'm all hooked up, I am running a turtle beach Riviera soundcard, I have a respectably hefty Dayton Y RCA adapter. My amp is a Kenwood Ka7100, it has a conservative 70rms and a *very* low noise floor for its price, and finally, some high end 14AWG speaker wire.



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After 4 hours listening:
I wish I had test equipment. I think somethings wrong, it seems kinda quiet, I think the new crossovers may be making the efficiency lower, I don't know it sounds alright but its like theirs something missing, its definitely clear and I can hear all sorts of subtleties but I was expecting more. **thinks to self**: "this demo song sucks, why did I even add it to my test CD? lets take a look at my notes.. la-da-da 'Panning and Imaging', hmm, this song sucks at panning i wonder what the difference would be if I turned it to mo... :gah: "
SWEET ARCTIC MONKEYS! I'VE BEEN RUNNING MONO!!!

Umm - I'll get back to you guys..

8 hours later...
OK, so I'm an idiot, -OH well, at least I am an idiot with good speakers.
I do not have a well disciplined ear, it takes me several days before I spot all the things wrong with a speaker but so far these are great. I listened to the drivers with the KLH X first, it wasn't terrible, its hard for me to tell immediately whats improved with the new crossovers as I couldn't do an A/B test, -but I assure you, things are better. Here's me enjoying my nearly complete speakers:



What I heard
In Air's song 'Venus' off the CD 'Moon Safari' you could immediately notice their slight French accent. It appears that there national heritage is only obvious in hifi:
shadow - shawdu
lover - luv-aire
you could - yu ch'uud
To make sure I double checked with the web - Verified: yes, they ARE INDEED a French band!

In Cowboy Bebop's theme by The Seatbelts 'Tank', I noticed 4 distinct trumpet parts. Before I only heard a "mass-O-trumpet". Again I went onto the web to verify. Yup, The band has 4 trumpet players.

For Transients I listened to Becoming the Archetype and Immortal Souls, two very disciplined hardcore bands: The speakers faithfully reproduced the heavy staccato slams of noise while preserving the intricate chord changes of each instrument and transitioned from fortissimo rhythmic strumming and screaming to piezzo violin and piano and then back again. I wanted also to see at what level the precision noise turned into formless racket. My ears gave out before the speakers did.

For immersion I put in "Tortoise: It's all around you": This CD had a ton of fun little things to hear with a high grade system, If you haven't heard it GET IT! Anyways, the bells in it were produced very realistically.
Furthermore, the deep 40 & 46hz bassline was heard well having distinct notes.
'Pink Martinis' version of "Bolaro" was exquisite, It would seem to fit in this category. the speakers seemed to like the song. The piano, bongos and upright bass and the harp in the recordings linger in the hall exactly like there supposed to. The harps were wonderful!

US Airforce preforming "pennies from heaven", was smooth and the Seas tweeters held the trumpets at their loud 2828hz where they normally would loose there definition and fuse. My sister (a trumpet player) commented that she could now notice the strain of the trumpet players on that note now.

For voice It was Sara K- 'If I could feel your blues' and Fiona Apple - 'The first taste': These were a real treat because they sounded very transparent. With the crossovers you could here there lips smacking, there breathing and even there tongues sticking to there dry mouths as they sung.

Thoughts:
I think the greatest things these speakers do is resolution, very little goes unheard. I have heard higher resolution speakers but they were 12 grand.
Midbass and the body of the music is SO clear. They kept the experimental and often busy 'Youngblood Brassband' and 'The Bad Plus' musical -which can be very challenging when the get "roudy".

Also the bass is very palatable, though I wouldn't say "velvety" though, not like SS anyways. These speakers can hold there own without a sub, you can still feel there sound waves hit you But if you have a good sub Id still use it. If you have a so-so sub however I think your better leaving it out because it will not blend well, at least for music and these do the job good enough.

Jay_WC - The system sensitivity is about 82 dB / 2.83 v

as far as I can tell this is the only drawback these speakers have

Back to the slightly pronounced lip smacking I mentioned, I don't mind it but I am wondering if its too much and needs to be tamed? I wonder about Jay's suggestion of switching the 8uf thingy with a 7 would help, I could also make the R10 doodad a smaller ohmege. The back of the enclosure still needs sonic barrier right now I just have foam, so that might fix it right there. If anyone else if familiar with Fiona apple or Sara K maybe you could tell me what they sound like on your system.

I really don't have the experience yet to twiddle with stuff this good and immediately hear what I've changed. So until I get a chance to drive down to the nearest boutique store or have a DIY guy over for lunch, I'm not going to change anything. I am still figuring out placement, and how much I should toe them in if at all.

I had two of my neighbors over. Teasing about the size by the Cerwin Vega 'bumper' stopped outright once the music started. He was surprised and I think a bit humbled. Both guys said that they have never heard speakers so clear and were surprised at the little speakers output. I would love compare these with the esteemed Modula MT's and other larger speakers. DIY'ers in Ohio should say hi.
Let the dancing nana show my pleasure! :dancenana:

[ctakim]

You sir, are too funny! Thanks for the informative and most of all entertaining post. Nice job on the speakers and crossovers, too.

[Mazeroth]

I, too, enjoyed the post!

Glad you're enjoying the speakers and welcome to the DiY party.

Whereabouts in Ohio are you living? I'm in Columbus.

[Raptor550]

In by downtown Dayton, I don't have a car but sometimes my sister and I go up to Columbus for swing dancing. have you been to that genesis audio?

[cobbpa]

Good impressions! Raptor, have you been to Audio Etc. in the Miamisburg / Centerville area? They have some nice rooms & speakers to check out.

[Finleyville]

In Air's song 'Venus' off the CD 'Moon Safari' you could immediately notice their slight French accent. It appears that there national heritage is only obvious in hifi:
shadow - shawdu
lover - luv-aire
you could - yu ch'uud
To make sure I double checked with the web - Verified: yes, they ARE INDEED a French band!

In Cowboy Bebop's theme by The Seatbelts 'Tank', I noticed 4 distinct trumpet parts. Before I only heard a "mass-O-trumpet". Again I went onto the web to verify. Yup, The band has 4 trumpet players.

For immersion I put in "Tortoise: It's all around you": This CD had a ton of fun little things to hear with a high grade system, If you haven't heard it GET IT! Anyways, the bells in it were produced very realistically.
Furthermore, the deep 40 & 46hz bassline was heard well having distinct notes.

Air and The Seatbelts are some of my favorite stuff! Good form!

Great job in the DIY arena. I hope that this First Taste will not be your last. Plus I hope just to read some more of your witty posts. :B

[Raptor550]

Finally - yeah, there good stuff. I have been listening to Blue Man Group's Audio & Complex. They sound phenomenal, very fun CD's to show off to people with :-D

I put my new stands together, they need more stain and gloss and some molding added too:



I tell you though, proper speaker placement makes a world of difference. They are imaging better than they used to now that they are at the proper height.

after a week I have come to the conclusion that they will definitely need a sub along with them. I am still very happy with them, I am less happy about my previous mp3 recordings however, they all clip!

Whats happening Cobbpa? I need to drive to that Audio etc. and do some comparisons, good to know there's a place like that close by.

[joecarrow]

I'm glad you're so happy with the results, it looks like a good experience.

If you think you need a sub for normal music, I strongly suggest trying the RS180s in ported boxes like the Modula MT. I have the Modula MT, and the only time I really wish I had a sub is when I'm listening to electronic music with extreme synthetic lows (I don't really have pipe organ music), or when I'm watching movies with LFE.

The RS180 is a really capable driver, and I was surprised by how natural the bass was in a properly designed ported box. Normally I wouldn't settle for less than a transmission line, but these things made me calm down about that. When I build my next system I'll try for transmission line or dipole, but for the time being I'm quite happy.

[WillyD]

If you think you need a sub for normal music, I strongly suggest trying the RS180s in ported boxes like the Modula MT. I have the Modula MT, and the only time I really wish I had a sub is when I'm listening to electronic music with extreme synthetic lows (I don't really have pipe organ music), or when I'm watching movies with LFE.

I would like to add that even with my ported Modula MTs, I very much enjoy the added depth/extension of my Sonosub. The past few days I have been running without the sub, and the experience is hardly the same...and that goes for almost all types of music.

[joecarrow]

Maybe I don't know what I'm missing :B

All I know is I can hear the low string on a bass guitar nice and clear, and that's what I call "good enough" for the time being. I definitely believe you that there's something added from a sub, but on a tight budget I think that ported boxes might get more satisfaction for the buck than an entirely new sub and amp- just in this particular case.

[mazurek]

For my first speakers that I built without a router, I got some adhesive backed felt from madisound to fake flush mount them. It doesn't look very nice, but it looks like you have grills.

[cobbpa]

Hey, good to see you got the stands mostly finished up! I just got your PM yesterday after a busy weekend. My phone's battery is dead & I'm getting my charger tonight..you'll hear from me probably in the next couple o days. :T Sadly (well, from your perspective mainly) we hung up my uncle's Modulas as the 6th & 7th channel, so we won't really get to hear them in stereo as a direct comparison. But on the positive side, a friend of mine has a pair of B&W speakers he might bring along to compare (603s..I think). Hopefully I can get him to bring those and work that out sometime soon, I'm excited to hear yours!

[joecarrow]

I'd be really interested to see how the Modula MTs compare to the 603s- the 600 series B&Ws really looked (on paper) like they would have been excellent for my needs, and close to the best commercial performance you can get in the price range... also close to the most I'd spend on commercial speakers.

Too bad I'm not in Ohio. Please post with any comparison; it'd be really nice if you were able to get all three lined up in one room for stereo comparison. BTW- I understand if that's too inconvenient.

[WillyD]

Maybe I don't know what I'm missing :B

All I know is I can hear the low string on a bass guitar nice and clear, and that's what I call "good enough" for the time being. I definitely believe you that there's something added from a sub, but on a tight budget I think that ported boxes might get more satisfaction for the buck than an entirely new sub and amp- just in this particular case.

Don't get me wrong, the Modula MTs do have very impressive bass for a 7" single driver two-way. I remember firing them up for the first time and being totally surprised by how much bass capability they had.

But after having them crossed over at 80Hz for so long to my 15" sub, taking the sub out of the picture and running them full range was nearly as satisfying. I was basically missing an entire octave of reproduction, not to mention the sub can handle the <80Hz range with much less effort.

[Raptor550]

Wow, a whole lot of chatter erupted while I wasn't paying attention!

The RS180 is a really capable driver, and I was surprised by how natural the bass was in a properly designed ported box.

The Bass is very natural, and its still present, don't get me wrong, but with my tiny enclosures the roll off is evident after 100hz, and to hear 40hz well you have to have em cranked. I don't have the cash for anything right now, my statement was more for people considering building this design.
I really should try these again with the port (take off the cardboard & re insert pipe). One thing I like about these guys is to me they seem to be really fast and pretty darn clean, I'm reluctant to meddle. The reason I mentioned a sub was because I went to the goodwill and and picked up some speakers that looked suspiciously DIY. They were the size of modulas and had an 8" woofer, They definitely had more depth even if they were extending only 10 - 15hz lower then mine, they were also more efficient, but the mids and highs were a little less good then mine. At $6 for the pair made me wish they wernt quite as good as they were, but they did look butt ugly (think 1960's tweed). I doubt with my size of enclosures I will be able to achieve that depth. The goodwill speakers has this really weird "train howl" at exactly 261hz I wonder if there wasn't an air leak, it was weird.

More extension only really matters to me when I listen to trip-hop like The Cardigans & portishead, or I have some more ambient stuff like Air or Sigur Ros. Sometimes its just nice to pick up the extra harmonics from a cello or an upright bass too. Allot or "pop rock" stuff you hear on the radio like Muse has allot of electronic Bass in it too. I'd have to agree with Willie, Subs have there place in music, if only in moderation.

Wow, it would be interesting to hear B&W's side by side! I'm stoked!

[Dennis H]

Yeah, an RS180 in a small sealed box starts rolling off about 80 Hz. Perfect to blend with a sub but a little bass-shy without.

[Raptor550]

Speaker stands are nearing completion! My sister came out to help me Put on some coats.



The first one was put together wonky so I just made the other one symmetrically wonkie to compensate.