My Natalie P Journey Begins

[wkhanna]

BR has me inspired!
Just finished the 1st xo.
Critics of any errors in my wiring are welcome (IOW - is this correct?)
Is there any concern with running hook-up wires too close to inductors?

I hit Harbor Freight around 9:30 this morning; four 12" and six 24" bar clamps and two packs of heat shrink tubing for < $35.
I told my wife never to let me go there unsupervised again, as EXTREME restraint was required and my will was tested to near limit!

BTW, she has recently began referring to my Nat P's as the 'Twins'!
And I don't think it is meant in an affable tone?!?!

[Ecir38]

wkhanna , i would like to make a suggestion to ask ThomasW if he could change the name of your thread to something like My Natalie P Journey begins. If i wasn't just goofing around i probably wouldn't have picked up on your thread in relation to the Natalie P. Might i also suggest when you get yours done post some pics and a link to this thread in the Natalie P mission accomplished thread so any nOOb's can use your thread as a referance too.

XO looks fine to me. Keep up the good work :T .

[wkhanna]

Should Sir Thomas decide to do so, I have no qualms at all.
When I am finished (yha, like we ever get finished, I am already planing my dual 10" sealed subs) I will post in the mission accomplished with a link to a detailed album similar to the way you did, the intent being to help nOObs like me with their first build.

Thanks for the xo inspection.

Now stop playing on your computer and go listen to your Nat Ps!!!!!!

[ThomasW]

The forum software often won't take renaming threads after they've been around a while and have a lot of posts. But incase it does I've renamed it. And eventually it may accept the new name.

[kingpin]

Hey Bill.

You bringing those Nat P's up here for us to listen to or do I have to rent a truck and bring my bad boys down there so we can listen to them. :B

Looking good btw.

Mike

[wkhanna]

Well, unlike you, I am taking ‘baby steps’. While my Nats (being my first venture into realm of DIY) would hold up as surrounds next to your ‘Bad Boys’, it would hardly be a competition! In fact, if you turn it up a little, I may be able the yours from here!

And thanks for the words of encoragement!

[kingpin]

Well, unlike you, I am taking ‘baby steps’. While my Nats (being my first venture into realm of DIY) would hold up as surrounds next to your ‘Bad Boys’, it would hardly be a competition! In fact, if you turn it up a little, I may be able the yours from here!

And thanks for the words of encoragement!

I would have taken baby steps also if I knew what they were.
Honestly though, without CJD being kind enough to build the co's for me it probably wouldn't of happened. :T
Although when I build my "Project Overkill Center" I plan on at least building it myself. 8O

[wkhanna]

Hey Bill.

You bringing those Nat P's up here for us to listen to or do I have to rent a truck and bring my bad boys down there so we can listen to them. :B
Mike

Let's just meet in Chris's front yard at 6:30 AM on a Saturday and serenade him!

[wkhanna]

I got info on another:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php?p=318402&postcount=486

Where Jon Marsh recommended NOT running your HF and LF leads next to each other if the individual + and- leads are NOT twisted together. So I have rerouted my leads to the HF and LF terminals. I will twist the + and - wires together from the terminal blocks to the individual speakers when I make the wire runs to each speaker.

The first pic shows my initial routing. The LF leads are on the top right and the HF leads are on the bottom right in both pics.

[wkhanna]

Both xo's completed. I do not have any test equip other than my Fluke DMM, and simply taking resistance readings will not tell me if they are OK. I'll find out when I power the speakers for the first time in the cabinets, I guess.

Time to learn how to use the router/Jasper jig today. My 3" Precision Ports will be bottom mounted, so I am going to try flush mounting the flange on some scrap pieces of BB for now.

[Evil Twin]

I used a Force Mind push on Jonmarsh to convice him to change the name, AND used a Force Mind Push on the forum software, and the result is quite apparent and satisfactory.

Most impressive, if I say so myself...


So the journey may continue...

[wkhanna]

As I arose from a restless sleep this morning, I thought I detected reverberations in the Force!.

And now I know my dark Lord is monitoring my efforts!
I can only hope to not disappoint the Master.
The consequences of failure can not even be imagined!
Pray that this journey to acquire only novice skills and use of the Force not be my last!

[kingpin]

As I arose from a restless sleep this morning, I thought I detected reverberations in the Force!.

And now I know my dark Lord is monitoring my efforts!
I can only hope to not disappoint the Master.
The consequences of failure can not even be imagined!
Pray that this journey to acquire only novice skills and use of the Force not be my last!

Are you sure you're are not still sick Bill.
I think you should check for a fever. :B :rofl:

[Ecir38]

I think he has entered the dark side :rofl:. btw the xo's look great. What kind of board are they on? Looks like stained and cleared mdf from the pic.

[wkhanna]

All I can say is, so far it has paid to invest in good quality tools.
The 621 performs like a well tuned race car. And the dust collection works far beyond any expectation.

OK, I did 'cheap out' on the bits. I couldn't help it! Last week when I went to Harbor Freight, they had a pack of 3 HSS 1/4" spiral bits for $6. I figured I would use them to practice. Today I bought a Bosch 1/2" straight flute at Lowes for $18, since I never ordered the good ones from MLCS.

Well, I can't stop now! I did screw up when I changed from the 1/8 to the 1/4 bit and forgot to compensate on the Jasper jig. Lesson learned!

Well, my trial run went OK other wise, and the Precision Ports fit like a glove.
I'm ready to cut both tower bases for the ports. And yes, I will get those other bits ordered ASAP!

[bob barkto]

Bosch bits are probably quite a bit better than anything from MLCS.

I'll probably ruffle a few feathers with the following...

I think I have about 80 some odd router bits from a dozen or so makers at this time. I've gone through many more in my career.

And of of all of them, the only ones to ever -fail- were from MLCS.

Years ago they had a 3 bit special, 1/4" straight, 1/2" flush trim and 3/8" roundover. It was a great deal, ~$20.00 for all three carbide tipped bits.

I chucked the 1/4" into my router and proceeded to cut some 12" long grooves 3/8" deep in soft pine. On the third pass the bit bent. Not a pretty sight I assure you.
Later that day came the roundovers. This time the only thing that failed was the bearing, after just a few feet of cutting. No real danger this time, but it did spoil more work.

I tried the flush trim bit some months later (you thought I would have learned by now?).
The bearing failed after a few feet of trimming some 1/4" plywood.

Lesson learned.

I like Wisconsin Knife Works, Whiteside, Bosch, Freud, Porter Cable, CMT, Amana and a few others. But MLCS is not in my bit box!

Just thought I'd share a little of my experience.:E

...Today I bought a Bosch 1/2" straight flute at Lowes for $18, since I never ordered the good ones from MLCS.

...
And yes, I will get those other bits ordered ASAP!

[wkhanna]

The Bosch is ½" shank x 1" and made a much cleaner cut than 1/8" HSS. I was running at full speed with both and feeding V slow. No burning occurred in either case. Price a Lowes is not that bad for the Bosch, except for the $45 3/4" round-over. Maybe I’ll just keep getting the Bosch and enjoy the convenience of buying locally when and as I need the different styles.

Thanks for your input Bob.

[bob barkto]

The prices for Bosch bits at Lowes are very good IMO.
$45 for a 3/4 roundover is still a good deal. Bits that size/quality are ~$60.00 normaly.

Carbide is prefered for both cleaner cuts and longer life. Especialy in MDF.
HSS will dull very quickly.

The Bosch is ½" shank x 1" and made a much cleaner cut than 1/8" HSS. I was running at full speed with both and feeding V slow. No burning occurred in either case. Price a Lowes is not that bad for the Bosch, except for the $45 3/4" round-over. Maybe I’ll just keep getting the Bosch and enjoy the convenience of buying locally when and as I need the different styles.

Thanks for your input Bob.

[Ecir38]

I agree prices aren't bad but they just don't have a great selection other than the standard bits. I sure would be nice if Rockler was a little more national. Some of these guys are lucky to have rockler in there area.

[bob barkto]

I am too lucky.
A Rockler, Woodcraft and Harbor Freight within a 1/2 hour drive.
Bad for the budget, but great for the tool addiction.

Back in the day all I had was RA Ness, who are closing shop, and Sears.:M
Ness was great. Had all the cool tools. But with no competition prices were a bit high.
Still they could, and most importantly would, get things that are still rather unobtainable to the weekend warriors among us.

I agree prices aren't bad but they just don't have a great selection other than the standard bits. I sure would be nice if Rockler was a little more national. Some of these guys are lucky to have rockler in there area.

[Dennis H]

Nationwide? No problem.

http://www.rockler.com/

http://www.woodcraft.com/

http://www.harborfreight.com/

[wkhanna]

btw the xo's look great. What kind of board are they on? Looks like stained and cleared mdf from the pic.

Some time ago, I worked in R&D designing, fabricating and testing residential and commercial circuit breakers. The material I mounted my xo’s on is composite phenolic, some scrap I had left over. It is used in power distribution as an insulator, since it has very high dielectric characteristics ( nonconductive material in high voltage environments ). It is made of biased layers of a linen material with a binder. Some types use epoxy and the green stuff you see circuit boards made of is one type, typically referred to as G10 and can be sourced from McMaster-Carr, or industrial plastics supply houses. There has been some discussion elsewhere here about using if for cabinets due to its rigidity and damping characteristics. Of course the big drawback being $. This stuff is not cheap, and I sure don’t have enough to build cabinets, unfortunately.

[wkhanna]

I agree prices aren't bad but they just don't have a great selection other than the standard bits.

I guess I’m lucky to be in a somewhat metropolitan area, our big hardware stores seem to have most if not all the styles required for cabinet building

[wkhanna]

Both xo's glued down. I sure hope I don't have replace/repair much. That hot glue sticks, and these puppies aren't coming loose for many years of above average SPL. At least I hope so.

[speedle]

Some time ago, I worked in R&D designing, fabricating and testing residential and commercial circuit breakers. The material I mounted my xo’s on is composite phenolic, some scrap I had left over. It is used in power distribution as an insulator, since it has very high dielectric characteristics ( nonconductive material in high voltage environments ). It is made of biased layers of a linen material with a binder. Some types use epoxy and the green stuff you see circuit boards made of is one type, typically referred to as G10 and can be sourced from McMaster-Carr, or industrial plastics supply houses. There has been some discussion elsewhere here about using if for cabinets due to its rigidity and damping characteristics. Of course the big drawback being $. This stuff is not cheap, and I sure don’t have enough to build cabinets, unfortunately.

Wow, those are truly cool crossovers you've got there! Your background shows in the execution, that's for sure. :T

[wkhanna]

I have a question concerning speaker cut-outs for dual-panel baffles.

My cabinets are ¾” BB ply, and the inner baffle is surrounded by the top, bottom and sides making it 7 ½“ wide. I will be using a ¾” piece of solid poplar for the outer baffle 9” wide. Could I tack screw the inner BB baffle to the outer poplar baffle, drill the 1/8” holes thru both for the jasper jig dowel pin, then take them apart and do the routing for the speakers on each panel separately?

My only reasoning is to avoid making progressively deeper cuts for the speaker cut-outs through 1-1/2” of material at one time, which would require a 2” long bit.

One other alternative would be to make my first cuts progressively deeper to just over 3/4“, then flip the glued panels over and finish the cuts on the other side.

Anybody tried any of these techniques?

[dlneubec]

I have a question concerning speaker cut-outs for dual-panel baffles.

My cabinets are ¾” BB ply, and the inner baffle is surrounded by the top, bottom and sides making it 7 ½“ wide. I will be using a ¾” piece of solid poplar for the outer baffle 9” wide. Could I tack screw the inner BB baffle to the outer poplar baffle, drill the 1/8” holes thru both for the jasper jig dowel pin, then take them apart and do the routing for the speakers on each panel separately?

My only reasoning is to avoid making progressively deeper cuts for the speaker cut-outs through 1-1/2” of material at one time, which would require a 2” long bit.

One other alternative would be to make my first cuts progressively deeper to just over 3/4“, then flip the glued panels over and finish the cuts on the other side.

Anybody tried any of these techniques?

I've used the second technique and it has always worked well, with one exception. Unless you drill the jig hole with a drill press, it is likely that the inner cutout won't perfectly match the outer coutout, say mabe you have a 1/8" shift or so. This is not a big deal as long as the driver still fits, but you can't be sure until the cutting is done.

Here is how I have solved this problem and addressed the issue of driver breathing room at the same time. I cut the outer cutout to about 7/8" deep or so. Then I cut the inner larger and 3/4" deep, causing around a 1/2" lip or shelf back from the outer hole edge. Then I also chamfer or roundover the inside cutout's inner edge. This gives the driver a lot of room to breath, yet provides full support. It also gives you a flat shelf to work with if you are using T-nuts (I don't, I use hurricane nuts).

If that's not clear, here's an examnple. Let's say you have a 5.5" dia. driver cutout. You cut that out to 7/8" deep. Then from the backside you start with a 6.5" dia. cut, 3/4" deep. Then you cut another at say 6" diameter, and so on until you reach the outside cutout and the piece comes free. You end up with a 1/2" shelf all the way around the driver cutout, 3/4" deep or so. Then you chamfer or roundover the inside cutout another 1/2" or so. The total space needed inside is 7.5" in this example. You can adjust the shelf and chamfer size to fit your driver and cabinet conditions.

[wkhanna]

Then I will use my bench-top drill press, I have enough clearance for the baffles, and rout the front and back after they are glued and screwed.

Thanks for your help Dan!

[speedle]

That's exactly what I do, and as long as I'm careful it really works great.

[wkhanna]

Despite holding forth on my husbandly duties, I made significant progress this weekend.

1. Completed the cuts on all exterior panels for second cabinet.

2. Routed both Precision Port mounting flanges on cabinet bases.

3. Laminated the poplar outer baffle to the BB inner baffle. I applied glue to the poplar plank and the BB both, after I had drilled pilot holes for wood screws and clamped 'guide rails' to reposition the two after the glued was laid down. Instead of trying to clamp the two pieces together, I just ran wood screws to secure them.


4. After the speaker holes were routed, I used my jigsaw to cut the clearance ‘ears’ for the tweeter terminals.

Next, cut braces and fab the enclosures for the tweeters, cut access holes on rear panel for xo access, then trim the excess from the baffles on the table saw, then flush trim and round-over with the router after they get glued.

[kingpin]

Good work there Bill.
I love the pic of the wine glass, followed by the shot of the wine glass and the Marlboro pack.
Next shot should be the speaker, Marlboro pack, glass of wine and of course some cheese. :rofl:
Looks like you have something good going on.

Mike

[wkhanna]

Why is it? Nobody ever notices the 'Altoids' ?
And you missed the 'Cheese' cloth, too!

[wkhanna]

Just a couple more pics of the baffles:

[speedle]

Are you going to roundover the inside, rear of your woofer cutouts? Reflections are bad in little tunnels like that, I understand. Oh, and those are Altoids?

[kingpin]

No man their not altoids, it's cheesecloth.
I second the motion for cleaning out the rear of the cutouts.
I used a 3/4" chamfer bit.

[wkhanna]

I plan on picking up a 3/4" 45 deg chamfer, and a 3/4" round over bit at Woodcraft on Saturday.

[Brian Bunge]

You could save a lot of money by ordering the bits from MLCS. I used to buy bits from Woodcraft but they're just way too expensive compared to MLCS's prices.

[wkhanna]

Our Woodcraft store carries three or four different brands, from Whiteside and Freud, to their store brand, and the Lowes in the same shoping center has a nice selection of Bosch. Between them all, I can find what I need at similar prices to MLSC. Are they as good as MLSC? I donno? The $16 Bosch 1" x 1/2" straight flute has held up well so far, as has the 1/4" solid carbide spiral flute Freud I got for $17, and the 1" x ½" flush trim Woodcraft brand.

But I will try the MLSC bits eventually.
Thanks for the feed back, Brian.

[Brian Bunge]

Hey if you've got that many brands at fairly similar prices then go for it. I do remember the whiteside bits being the ones I'd bought before. If you ever look at the larger roundover bits (larger than 3/4" radius) then make sure you check out MLCS first. Some of the prices I've seen for a similar Whiteside bit were pretty steep.

[wkhanna]

Yep, from looking around MLSC has good prices on the larger bits, and they have some nice deals on sets, too.

Has anyone tried their 3-flute style yet?

[wkhanna]

Got Clamps?

Also, look close, you’ll see the reason for my modification of the adage, ‘measure thrice, cut once’.

Tweeter backing plate was my first try at 'free-hand' routing.

[ThomasW]

Progress is our most important product.....

[Outfitter]

So Bill, what are your plans for the feet? What kind of clearance is needed with the bottom port?

[wkhanna]

Current design.

IIRC, our esteemed moderator and ET recommended at least 2" clearance for bottom firing port.

[Ecir38]

Now that is sweet, can't wait to see the final product.