looking for help with DAC/AMP for B&W 683's

[capall]

Hi all, just came across your site recently after purchasing a pair of 2013 B&W 683's (series 1 I believe they're now called) and looking to upgrade the rest of my system.

I'm currently using a 10 yr old Sony AV receiver with 100w/ch (no optical input), fed from the analog out of an airport express via Ethernet. I'll probably replace this with a sonos due to their streaming services integration, and will look to use the optical out instead.

The system is in my living-dinning room and is also open to the kitchen, approx 12'x30'. Listening choices range from classical/U2/white stripes/blues, and enjoy it loud on occasion and is usually 70% music,20% TV,10% movies

I want to focus on getting as good 2ch as I can within my budget, but I may decide to go to 5.1 in the future, which complicates the path I take a bit. If I do I'll just use mid range in-wall rear speakers due to space restrictions and that movies are only about 10% for our TV watching. My budget is under $2000 and am trying to decide on the separates vs Integrated route and how I might add in an avr. I'm trying to work through these options



1. high end AVR for everything
2. mid range AVR for center/rears with front pre-amp outs into Integrated DAC/Amp with HT bypass for better 2ch performance
3. mid range AVR for center/rears with front pre-amp outs into separate dac into an Integrated DAC/Amp with HT bypass (not sure if a separate dac is worth it within my budget)
4. mid range AVR with pre-amp outs and a separate DAC/PRE/Power Amp units
5. mabe even combine an avr with a 2ch power amp, but would this need to be a high end for good 2ch quality, in which case the 2ch power amp might be out of budget

From reading up, it seems rotel is a good match for these speakers, but I'm not sure of the best way to go within my budget
thanks everyone

capall

[PewterTA]

I have to say with your budget, I'd look at getting one of the Yamaha Aventage receivers (rx-a830 or rx-a1030 range)... then couple that with an Odyssey Khartago (Plus or Extreme if you can get it) 2ch amp - which should all fit in your budget. That would give you great performance for HT use, it's 2ch Performance is pretty darn good (not as good as a nice $1k+ DAC, but still good) and having the power of the Odyssey Amp to drive your speakers... can't really get much better!

It will easily perform as well as the Rotel and sound almost identical...but have more features (HT side of things) and be able to drive your current speakers and a line or two above what you have.

I've gotten two people this same exact setup and they can't believe how much better the sound is and they've shown off their system to friends that can't believe the sound they have.

[madmac]

70% music is a BIG number and therefore, I would honestly forgo the 5.1 surround aspect of things and get a good 2ch amp for your B&W's. Movies and TV sound perfectly fine in 2ch stereo anyway.

Rotel and B&W speakers have often been considered a great marriage sound wise. Going from a Sony to a Rotel amp will yield a very pleasantly, surprising result sound wise!. You'll be impressed.....trust me!.

[capall]

thanks for the suggestions guys,

I haven't heard too much on the yamaha receivers, other than they're pretty good for HT and surround. Will their dac and the Khartago amp really compare to that of an integrated amp. I came across the RA1570. I guess I just have to listen to them. I'll see if I can find a dealer with that amp. A one box setup would be beneficial alright, if I'm happy with the 2ch, but almost all reviews seem to push people quite quickly away from receivers for 2ch setups and the Integrated dac/amps seem to have come a long way in the last few years.

thanks
capall

[madmac]

I used Yamaha amps and receivers for years and they are fine. I never really thought that an Amp could make any real difference to a sound system other than it's watts per channel rating, but I was wrong. I found that out quickly when I upgraded to Rotel.

[PewterTA]

It will perform as well as the Rotel if not outperform the Rotel. Yamaha re-designed their aventage series to compete "basically" with the range Rotel sits in. If you go up to the 2030/3030 models, I think they sound almost identical to the sound Rotel is giving in the 15 series. Where they don't have Rotel is in the amplification portion. Their amps are good... but Rotel has a slight bit of musicality to their amps that I really like. This is why I suggested Odyssey... I've demoed the Khartago right next to various Rotel amps and honestly, there's not really any difference. I mean there might be a SLIGHT difference, but only able to be distinguished with the amps side by side switching back and forth. Otherwise you could put them behind a cutain and I doubt anyone would know.

Only thing I'll give Odyssey over Rotel... is there's a quickness to the Odyssey amp that I don't think Rotel quite has. Like I said before... it's VERY VERY VERY close. I'd give the Rotel an ever so slight "more musical" side and the Odyssey has the ever so slight "Quickness" side. Other than that, they are identical. Of course this is with Rotel's top of the line and Odyssey's bottom.

Price is where you get the goods though. Yamaha sells far more than Rotel which keeps costs down. Odyssey is a small manufacturer (Klaus and his wife assemble the amps themselves) and their profit margin is much smaller than what Rotel does. So you basically get everything of Rotel...but fit it right into your price range.

[capall]

Thanks Guys for the info,

I have had another thought. If I decided, at least for the moment to put all my budget towards the RA1570, and just go 2ch TV audio, and forgo a AV Receiver altogether, will this setup work and what would the limitations be? My TV has both analog and Toslink out so connecting as follows...

blu ray - hdmi - TV
DVR - hdmi- TV
TV Toslink optical out to input on RA1570
Sonos coax optical out to input on RA1570

And then use the RA1570 to switch sources.

My concern here is on the audio quality of the TV's optical out, will there be any sync issues, will it have problems with blu-ray audio, will it have problems with HD audio form Vudu/netflix?

thanks guys

[madmac]

I use the optical out on my TV with no audio/video sync issues (with TV signals). In most cases, You can also fix and sync issue if there is one via the TV's menus. Whether you can slide the HDMI audio signal sent to the TV though it's Optical out is another matter altogether......I've never tried that.

[Antioch]

I would think about used Bryston gear. It has a 20 year warranty that follows the unit to a new owner. On Audiogon there is a Bryston BP 25 preamp and 3B ST amp for sale for $1,995. That will really put you in another league from Yamaha or Rotel and the Bryston eqt. will allow the speakers to reach there full potential. The preamp still has 8 years of warranty left. Even if you later decide to upgrade the amp that preamp will last a lifetime. Not sure if it has a phono stage. There is nothing wrong with Rotel or Yamaha they just will not deliver the same level of performance. The seller will split the amp and preamp.

[capall]

Thanks guys,
Can you clear up something form me. I've been reading a lot on dvd and blu ray audio formats, still a bit confused, but beginning to narrow it down. If I wasn't using a receiver (to gain 5.1), and say took the optical into a rotel RA1570 directly form the TV optical out or even from the Blu ray player optical out, I would have the option of using 2ch PCM or Dolby Digital (and possibly DTS), and that with the 2ch PCM the audio quality would be lossless and be approx the same quality as dolby True HD, but just to 2 channels. And dolby digital would be a step down as its lossly.

Point here being If I don't want to go surround sound, but want HD audio for blurays, (and best available for DVD), do I even need a receiver at all?

thanks

[madmac]

It is my belief that you are correct. With my PS3, I get hi res audio in 2ch (My receiver does not support HDMI and therefore no DD-HD or DTS-HD). In the PS3 settings menu, I choose PCM as the audio out in 2ch and get 24 bit audio as a result via it's optical out.

Therefore if you are happy with 2ch Hi-Rez audio, you indeed do NOT need a receiver.

[capall]

thanks, if just sticking with 2ch then, or at least starting out, this means i could skip the receiver and get the Rotel first, and use it to switch the sources (sonos, dvd, sat), and get the 2ch lossless sound for movies. can always add the receiver later for 5.1

[sklassen]

thanks, if just sticking with 2ch then, or at least starting out, this means i could skip the receiver and get the Rotel first, and use it to switch the sources (sonos, dvd, sat), and get the 2ch lossless sound for movies. can always add the receiver later for 5.1

rotel has a nice new amp,1552mk2.I use it for surrounds but ran it for a while on my mains and it sounds pretty good.They also have a matching pre amp that I haven't heard and I think a more powerful mk2 amp..Emotiva has a great 2 channel pre amp with all the bells and whisles as far as connections and a ht bypass. its tuff to beat at its price range.I run the analogue outs from an oppo 95 to the emo and a processor then to my amps.the emotive smokes the theater processor in two channel playback for less than a 3rd of the cost.

[Stoney]

Have you looked into Emotiva at all? I've been pleased with mine driving a 600 S2 system.

[capall]

Thanks guys for all the help,
had to put my search on hold for a while, and now back to it. I've done a lot of reading recently and to Stoneys' question, not really looked at Emotiva, but they do seem to be suggested quite a bit, so I'll check them out.

The Yamaha 3030 or 3040, also seems to be a recommended option, so i'll look into them.

Anybody have any feedback on the use of say a Denon x4000, which can be got now for about $700 or so, new.

Also I see quite a few of the Marantz SR series avr's on sale, especially factory refurb on accessories4less..which seem to be a step up in SQ for music over the denon, (soundandvison (I think) tear down review shows higher caps etc for the marantz over the sister model Denon)
SR7005 $1,599.99 $649.99
SR6006 $1,199.99 $499.99
SR7007 $1,799.99 $699.99
SR5008 $899.99 $499.99
SR7008 $1,999.99 $899.99
SR5009 $899.99 $549.99
SR6009 $1,299.99 $849.99

Another question, what are the factors that help you decide whether to go with a receiver or separates for these speakers. Is it that fact that for a medium size room, and for approx $2K, a high end receiver would equal or better a separate pre/pro + amp combo.

The more I understand the better chance I have of making an informed decision.

I'm also coming back to some of your suggestions, of forgetting the 5.1, and just go with 2 ch for both music and movies..in which case would a center channel or a sub make any difference?..and if so would I still need a receiver for this?


Thanks for all your suggestions,