800 Series Owners: Do you bi-wire your speakers??

[Kal Rubinson]

Agreed for the most part but measurements can be a double edge sword and you know that. Please read the article!

I have read it and corresponded with Jim about it some time back.

Same here, the fronts of my B&Ws like you do. It could be that you don't own some of the speakers in your other systems, unlike your B&Ws, so what's the point right? I wouldn't put your Paradigm Studios in the same class as your B&Ws either so the expense of bi-wiring would probably be disproportionate and unjustifiable.

It seems that you presume that I do so out of preference, as opposed to personal indifference.

It's your "insistence" that changing out the cables is too inconvenient that gets me going. As if the monolithic monster amplifiers that you have reviewed not so long ago were more convenient to get into place and hook up. Yeah right, like that is a convincing statement. So what you really are saying is that you are a push over? That's what I call LAME. LOL

Why change them out if I have no preference? It has nothing to do with the effort involved but, rather, that I have no motivation to change.

Kal

[Race Car Driver]

I tri-wire my B&Ws.

[RebelMan]

I have read it and corresponded with Jim about it some time back.

What was the outcome of that discussion?

It seems that you presume that I do so out of preference, as opposed to personal indifference.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Why change them out if I have no preference? It has nothing to do with the effort involved but, rather, that I have no motivation to change.

If you exercised what you believe then what motivated you to change them in the first place? Virgin use or gullibility?

[Aldo]

:blah: :blah: :blah: Cable Talk! :blah: :blah: :blah:
No way out!
:argue: :argue: :argue:


But, I bi-wire.. well... I four-wire! :B :B :B

[Aldo]

Anyway I absolutely love my Bifocal kimber kables!
At first I could not hear the difference, until i take them out 1 year latter, that day I know what those cables can do!
I'm shure there is a difference! and no subtle one!

[Russ L]

IMHO, it is more likely to be a marketing, than an engineering, decision. Kal

My dealer's B&W rep told me that B&W keep gold plated posts and Kevlar speakers because they believe the consumers will get upset if they change to more sonically advantageous materials as recommended by the engineers. I know I like the look of the speakers better the way they are. The human eye sees yellow the fastest of all colours. A marketing decision to draw the consumer's attention or coincidence? Regards, Russ

[Relentless]

B&W keep gold plated posts and Kevlar speakers because they believe the consumers will get upset if they change to more sonically advantageous materials as recommended by the engineers.

please someone tell me this is not true.

[colinjohnson]

Interesting thread... My preference is not to bi-wire. I've tried both bi-wire and bi-amp and in my view you shouldn't need either. If the runs are short and the amplifier has sufficient umph then that should be all you need. Adding more pairs of wires alters the response by changing the capacitance and/or inductance of the load seen by the amplifier. The longer the wire the more effect it has. This effect may be heard as a boost of the high frequencies or a change in the tone at the cross-over points. On one set-up I tried the mid range was decidedly muffled using bi-wire cables. Reverting to a single pair fixed this problem. The back emf issue mentioned previously is supposed to be handled by the Zobel network across the speaker terminals on the inside of your amplifier.

I also believe there is significant hype from the cable companies to sell us more of their grossly overpriced products.

That's my view.

[misterdoggy]

I biwire for the same reason many of us do = because its suggested to be the best

[Kal Rubinson]

What was the outcome of that discussion?

I accept Jim's analyses but, still, I have yet to find a test of its audibility. Note that the effect he demonstrates is not likely to account for the anecdotal reports which usually stress increased clarity in the two separated speaker legs rather than a change at crossover.

If you exercised what you believe then what motivated you to change them in the first place? Virgin use or gullibility?

A bit of both, mostly instigated by a cable manufacturer.

Kal

[dknightd]

There is no doubt that biwiring can theoretically have a effect on sound.
The debate is can you hear it. I have not YET. Maybe I have not tried hard enough,
or maybe my lowly 703s can not show the difference. Like Kal, and others, I tried it, and have
no motivation to go back to compare. I could not hear the difference when I
switched wires, so, I have no motivation to go back and try again. (at least not yet)
I finally convinced my wife that in addition to treating the first reflections
on the walls, I also needed to treat the ceiling. Spend your time and money
on treating the room and wife - trust me - it will gain you way more than changing cables.
At least that has been my experience.

[Greg Gale]

The engineers and not the marketing people want to keep the Kevlar drivers...

My dealer's B&W rep told me that B&W keep gold plated posts and Kevlar speakers because they believe the consumers will get upset if they change to more sonically advantageous materials as recommended by the engineers. I know I like the look of the speakers better the way they are. The human eye sees yellow the fastest of all colours. A marketing decision to draw the consumer's attention or coincidence? Regards, Russ

I attended a preview of the new Signature 40th anniversary speaker and asked Dr. John Dibb who is responsible for the design of this speaker and many other in the B&W range the question of why they have not upgraded materials for the Kevlar midrange when they have now changed the woofer to Rohacell and the tweeter to diamond. His response was" the marketing people keep begging us to change to something other than Kevlar but until we find something better we will stick with it". He claims they have researched many different materials but found Kevlar to be superior.

[RebelMan]

Damn Greg, I wished you would have asked him the million dollar question too. Maybe then Kal would get the objectivity he is looking for.

[Kal Rubinson]

Damn Greg, I wished you would have asked him the million dollar question too. Maybe then Kal would get the objectivity he is looking for.

Mebbe. I think this will never be resolved by ad hoc statements, even from people like Dibb. What a company does is often apparent; why they do it rarely is because there are so many people and factors that contribute to the outcome.

Besides, we still lack published objective data on the audibility, regardless of the mathematical/electical analyses.

Kal

[RobP]

Besides, we still lack published objective data on the audibility, regardless of the mathematical/electical analyses.

Kal

Will we really ever get this? I think if we did, someone would dispute it. This type of topic always ends up chasing its own tail.

[RebelMan]

Besides, we still lack published objective data on the audibility, regardless of the mathematical/electical analyses.

I can accept this statement. It also seems Jim would concur at the close of his exposé...

"Thus we can conclude that there may be a small effect due to bi-wiring, but the above tends to imply it may normally be so small as to have little significance. In order to say more, a detailed model of specific realistic systems, and/or some precise measurements, would be required. These might reveal a more noticeable effect in some cases,..."

So why hasn't Jim or better yet Stereophile taken it upon themselves to prove or disprove the theory? It isn't like Stereophile hasn't stuck their neck out on certain cable claims before. Where was the objectivity coming from in those conclusions? :roll: Don't they have an obligation to search for the truth or is it all just for show (and tell)? :W

It's disgraceful when some aspects of this hobby are accepted on the basis of subjectivity alone and yet other aspects are rejected without the required objective proof. Where was the objectivity testing in the Kubala-Sosna cables your chose? Or could it be that was just another case of cable manufacture imposition?

[Kal Rubinson]

I cannot speak for the magazine, only for myself; so contact John Atkinson if you wish.

As for my cable choices, the reasons behind them are clearly spelled out in the published comments which, btw, I do not consider reviews (except in one case).

Kal

[RebelMan]

I cannot speak for the magazine, only for myself; so contact John Atkinson if you wish.

Despite this, it stands to reason that someone needing objective data would look for it in their own back yard, no?

As for my cable choices, the reasons behind them are clearly spelled out in the published comments which, btw, I do not consider reviews (except in one case).

I believe your choices and the comments supporting them were based on personal preference only, no data. Hence, my failiure to understand the dichotomy of your position as it pertains to bi-wiring. Why not take take a similar opposition on cables that you do on bi-wiring? That there is no difference because there is no data to support it. It makes no sense Kal.

[Kal Rubinson]

Despite this, it stands to reason that someone needing objective data would look for it in their own back yard, no?

I would if there was something there.

I believe your choices and the comments supporting them were based on personal preference only, no data. Hence, my failiure to understand the dichotomy of your position as it pertains to bi-wiring. Why not take take a similar opposition on cables that you do on bi-wiring? That there is no difference because there is no data to support it. It makes no sense.

I think you need to read between the lines. My comments are intentionally subtle. :W

Kal

[RebelMan]

I think you need to read between the lines. My comments are intentionally subtle. :W

I'm with you notwithstanding the elusive trail you blazed. :W

[ka7niq]

I own Matrix 801's.
I have tried them both ways.
I THINK the tweeters are a bit more detailed, and image is a BIT better bi wired.
I run true double wires, no jumpers here.
I LOVE my 801's :T

[Briz vegas]

I will start by saying that I am not that technically informed when it comes to cables - I am going by gut feel and lay persons logic.

Some cable companies offer biwire or single wire configurations using the same cable but with 2 or 4 connectors at the end. The 2 halfs of the wire are separate until you get to the amp end of the cable.

I am concerned that this sort of "bi-wire" by effectively splitting a cable in two will potentially have a detrimental effect. The reason for my concern is that I believe the difference between models in the cable brand I use is by adding more conductors in the more expensive cables. I am also thinking maybe the tweeter and woofer will not put even demands on the cable.

On the other hand I see that stereophile reviews this brand of speaker cable in bi-wire configuration.

I do wonder if a biwire configuration using a more expensive model cable may in reality be like using the lesser model cable biwired - if that makes any sense. A true biwire of this cable would require 2 cables a speaker, which means double the number of conductors of a non-biwire setup.

I don't like my chances of audioning bi-wire and non-bi-wire configurations with the cables I am interested in. On top of that bi-wiring using two separate runs of the model I am interested in would be too expensive.

I will ask around a bit to see if the dealer etc has any comments on this, but I do wonder.

How does Cat cables offer bi-wire cables - is it with 2 cables per speaker?

[Briz vegas]

Well it seems I can buy biwire and use them in either biwire or shotgun configuration but simply inserting or removing the jumpers on the speakers. I will try this when I audition my cables and see what difference it makes to my humble ears.

If I get biwire it is easy enough to swap between the two modes as the mood takes me (assuming I can hear a difference). I am told there is a trade off but will try it for myself.

:T

[Kal Rubinson]

Well it seems I can buy biwire and use them in either biwire or shotgun configuration but simply inserting or removing the jumpers on the speakers.

???? With the jumpers on the speakers, it is neither biwiring nor anything other than doubling up on cable thickness.

Kal

[george_k]

Just thought I'd relate the experience I had a few years ago.

I read up the bi-wiring theory and agreed with it (in theory). So I went out and purchased additional cabling.

I tried bi-wiring my 603/S3 (back when I still had them), I left the system bi-wired for a few days...I noticed absolutely no difference. So I un-biwired my system and used the excess cabling for something else.

My conclusions from this experience:

1. Maybe the theoretical benefits of bi-wiring aren't that apparent in real world listening (possible)
2. Maybe my ears aren't sensitive enough to note the difference (possible)
3. Maybe my speakers weren't revealing enough to reveal the difference (possible but very doubtful)

My philosophy on the matter:

Focus time, energy and money on tweaks and upgrades that you can actually hear.

[Briz vegas]

???? With the jumpers on the speakers, it is neither biwiring nor anything other than doubling up on cable thickness.

Kal

As I said this cable comes as either biwire or shotgun (double thickness if you like). Inserting the connectors makes it no longer biwire cable. Taking a glass half empty perspective the biwire is half thickness. (It may make more sense if you look at my profile to see what Br@nd I am using. As I said they use more conductors as you move up their product range. I was trying to be non-brand specific to avoid any sort of promotion of the product).

Anyway I will listen and see which I prefer. No doubt it will be the most expensive option.

[wgriel]

Anyway I will listen and see which I prefer. No doubt it will be the most expensive option.

Heh, isn't that some kind of universal truth? :lol:

[Gerald]

Over the years I have owned and tried the M805, N805 and subsequently new N805S both bi-wire and single wire with jumpers as a part of various front end systems.

I have found that I lose a certain top to bottom cohesiveness in the sound when bi-wiring. Over the three generations of 805's I refer to I always used Nordost, Cardas or QED cable, eventually setting down on a QED Genesis bi-wire. I forget what it was earlier on but for the original N series it was the QED Silver Anniversary, and then the QED Genesis used in both single and bi wire configurations.

Each time I bi-wired the same thing occured. I gained something nice in the punch and slam of the system but lost a certain musicality as a result. Using the single wire configuration the musicality improved at the expense of a bit of slam.

With the N805S I use the Chord Signature speaker cable with matching Chord Signature jumpers. I believe this is the best overall speaker wire configuration to date in my system.

[Briz vegas]

:smackbutt:

I will not mention cable brands on this forum
I will not mention cable brands on this forum
I will not mention cable brands on this forum
I will not mention cable brands on this forum

I have been told that shotgun benefits the lows and biwire improves the highs. Still waiting for those cables to become available for a demo.

Hope you have your rosary beads handy for you cable uttering sins. Although I am told that if you thread your beads on cat silver tails your prayers are more likely to be answered. If you biwire your rosary beads........I will get chucked off this forum for making religious jokes (or more likely for just making bad jokes).

[aquaanox]

I had bi-wired my 600 s3's and CM7's with supra ply 3.4 cables and noticed absolutely no difference. Now i have XT's and they dont have a bi-wire option so i dont have to think about it

[username_deleted]

I think it really depends on the amp(s) you use and the brand/type of cables.

Together with an editor of mine we were listening to the 804S this evening.
He's reviewing them right now. I went there with 2 Lyngdorf Millenniums to hear the sonic difference between his Paraound JC 1's and the Millennia.

Well, the overall sonic difference was very clear when we started to bi-wire.
My editor Rob uses Kimber KS3033 (copper reference). The sound was bloomy and very "live"-like. Later we listened with the Millennium amps and again with his JC's, but put a KS3038 (silver reference) to the bass units and the KS3033 to the mid/highs. Boy, this was a complete different story!

The sound was more detailed, refined, more polished and not bass heavy. More punch and added transparancy, just more sofisticated music reproduction.

Off topic: I'm having very much difficulty on finding the right amp on my 802D's. Listened to the JC1's, the Millennium (bi-amp), Halco Logic, Rotel RB1091 and next week I'll auditione PASS LABS...

Kind regards

Marco

[Gump]

The Grand Poo-Ba at B&W recommends Bi-Wiring in my 803D's manual. Who am I to question the Great Wizards at B&W, obediant servant that I am?

And this is one issue that doesn't keep me awake at night :Z (although there are several others that do 8O )

[Kal Rubinson]

The Grand Poo-Ba at B&W recommends Bi-Wiring in my 803D's manual.

Now, there's a title one never sees on an organization chart. :W

Kal

[Briz vegas]

Finally got to play with some loaner cables and power cords etc for a couple of hours last night (wanted to do more this afternoon but there is a very loud party next door- listening is impossible)

To my ears, and my ears only, biwire is better. Shotgun is more in your face and there is some harshness in the upper frequencies.

I expected my loaner cables to improve things across the board but was a little disappointed with the limited improvements to bass and I though the cymbals were splashy - it was not as together as I expected. I added an aftermarket power cord to the amp. Nice improvement.

I jumped a few levels and put in better speaker cables/interconnect - Ok but still not near what I heard with my friends even more expensive cables. As I had an extra gee whiz power cord I put it on the CD player -not much difference.

I was getting a bit disillusioned by this point as I could not get a decent slice of the sound I had heard 3 weeks ago. Was I not remembering accurately. Finally I put that extra power cord on my CD players Flatcap2 external power supply - OK now we were cooking with gas.

Finally the sound left little to be desired - only problem was the price of all those cable upgrades was as much as my CD player (not including its external power supply).



I need to get a cheaper obsession

Keeping in mind that I would need to purchase over time I would replace components in this order
1. New speaker cables to match my current good quality interconnect
1. Power cord for amp
(take your pick between these, maybe even power cord first - equal but different improvements)
3. Power cord for CD power supply
4. better speaker cables
5. better interconnect (don't know why 4 and 5 were not the other way around but it just did not work for me the other way)

[ChrisssB]

Hi ppl
All this debate got me really curious so last Saturday afternoon I thought I should give it a try. Mind you that I do not use anything fancy (won’t mention any brands).
Its just the 12 awg copper cables I used back in the days when I was sold over HT (now I'm only into stereo). Since I used to have a 5.1 set-up, I had plenty of cable somewhere in the attic. Another thing worth to mention is that I have my 2 channel set up in a smallish room (about 3.2 X 4.2 meters) where my 804S did do a fine job but as you probably already think they were dangerously flirting with what we call bass heavy.
Not much though, because I used many fine tricks I learned from you ppl (thank you for that), marble plinths, thick carpet etc…
To cut a long story short I used 2 runs of the same cable (for every speaker) for biwiring….and the difference was more than noticeable! Everything was better imaging, mids, highs etc…Felt like bass reduction at first but it was bass control to my ears. The change was so pleasant, I’m slapping myself for being such an idle and not done it sooner! (actually its quite the opposite, I’ve been working like a dog…and had no time…)
Anyway it was so good that I was even worried and even looked at the jumper wires that came with my speakers, if they had some kind of problem (cut or something else)! Also I should mention that I had the connections right (before biwiring that is …no phase inv or anything).
So I came to blame the smallish room (my set up was not as good as it would be in another room) that made the difference so obvious!
And maybe THIS is why to some ppl biwiring makes no difference and to others does make (to different degrees): cause our rooms (the factor we usually forget to put in the equation) are different and of course the components involved! The better, the less impact! (in my case components are great but the room..far from it)
I think it makes sense: in physics a borderline (or is it marginal?) situation can give vastly different results under minimal differences.

Best regards Chris

[Briz vegas]

Well I took the plunge and did the whole stage one upgrade (power cord and speaker wire).

Listening last night I was pretty darn happy. Its more of an improvement than I originally thought. I know I can go 3 steps up from here without changing electronics or speakers (in fact I could keep improving my wires with small improvements each time getting more natural sounding). I'm happy to settle here for a good long spell as its a pretty good place to be.