800 Series Owners: Do you bi-wire your speakers??

[nick.h]

Hi,

First up, this is not a brand vs brand thread.

Just wondering of those who have the 800 series speakers, who uses bi-wire cables? If not, do you use the jumper cable which comes with the speaker? Or another one matching your speaker cable brand?

Reason I ask, is I would have thought when using a highend cable it would be best to bi-wire, instead of using a lower grade jumper cable, yes no?

Remember, no brands!

[Stevebez]

Currently I dont ...

I think I might bi-amp the centre channel and bi-wire the mains as the speaker cable I am running supports it ... gotta be carefull on the phasing tho.

I doubt it will make much diff sonically - but hell lets give it a try why not!

[Karma]

Yes, Sort Of....

HI nick,
On my 805S based 5.1 HT system the fronts and center are biwired, the rears are not. Since I design and build my own cables, I can mention the brand: "My Cables".

This is a controversial subject and there are many folks who think there is no advantage. I'm not one of them at least for the cases with which I have experience and where I have spent a great deal of time evaluating cables which is mostly on my own systems.

Sparky

[RobP]

Nick,

I also Bi-wire my speakers, I believe that in my setup that it did make a slight difference for the better.

[Glenee]

Yes, On the Fronts Not on the rears.

[Sounder]

I installed a bi-wire setup and noticed improvement. however... I also upgraded the cable at the same time. I believe I got the most benefit from improving the cable, not so much from the biwire.

That said, I recently got a new amp, and now I bi-amp. Bi-amping made a significant difference. And, it was nice to be able to split the wires in the biwire setup and have two runs built into one jacket. I was able to keep the higher quality cables, while having two parallel runs to each speaker in one neat package.

Point is, if you get good cables, you can probably get a better quality cable and better results by spending the extra money on a standard set than you'd get by investing in the bi-wire. On the other hand, if you think you'll ever bi-amp, then you may want the double runs later.

[Kal Rubinson]

I bi-wire the fronts (802D) but not the rears (804S). It has made no difference but who wants to change cables again and again.

Kal

[Tommy]

Yes I biwire my 805S

[beden1]

I bi-amp the front three speakers.

[Race Car Driver]

Yes I do, just because I have extra wire and the amps are within 3 feet of the 802s.

[nick.h]

What size spades to the 800 Series take 1/4" or 5/16" ?

[Cruxis]

I have 803D's bi-wired, and I do hear a pleasant difference.

[SoCalCM]

No. I don't biwire my 802Ds and do use the jumper thingy that came with them. The amp is a long way from the speakers. I read quite a lot of opinions on this and there was no consensus -- so I figured if there was a definite improvement, then there would be a consensus. Since there isn't, I saved the money.

[RebelMan]

What size spades to the 800 Series take 1/4" or 5/16" ?

Either will work but I prefer to use 1/4" for the tighter fit. I bi-wire the fronts but not the surrounds. There is a difference but it’s not audibly significant. However, cumulatively little tweaks like this can add up to something sonically tangible.

[ShadowZA]

I bi-wire the L, C & R but not the surrounds.

[jericho]

I be wire the 800D's and the HTM-1D, very slight difference

[chin kwan]

I bi-wire my front three as well (N803 and HTM1) but single wire the rears (SCM1)..

Yes, I did notice it's a touch cleaner but for a lot of $$$$$.. (supplied jumpers are included with the speaker= free)

[scanido]

I bi-wire my front 803S since i hot new cables, but the difference i've noticed was probably the newer cables.

[wca156]

I bi-wire the fronts and have done so since I got my 803S. I don't know if there is a difference since they have always been bi-wired.

[gross30]

All of my speakers, 801 s3, front, monitor s9i, rear, paradigm c3, center, are all bi-wired. I vote yes !!!

[BWzes03]

At this point in time, my speakers are single wired, but I would like to upgrade to bi-wired, since it allready made a significant difference bi-wireing my DM-603's.

However, the upgrade will come at a significant cost, which I do not have the budget for at the moment, having just moved into my new home....

This is a system build around Rotel seperates and N804's btw....

[Briz vegas]

Yup!

[gostan]

Bi-wire the LCR, but not the surrounds.

[Relentless]

I have read conflicting opinions on bi-wiring. I wonder if getting a jumper for the 800D is worth it since the plate connecting the terminals is silver already(or just chrome plated)?

[tboooe]

I was thinking of passively vertically biamping my speakers. In the process of researching options I came across this post by Charles Hansen of Ayre on another forum. In a nutshell he thinks biwiring with two physically separate runs of speaker cables will give almost the same improvements as passively vertically biamping. I am going to give this a try.


< < performance comparison will look like when vertically biamping a "biamp/biwire recommended" speaker like Vandersteen with two stereo amps like V-5 vs biwiring with a pair of monoblocks like MX-R > >

There are several variations on this theme. Here are my experiences:

a) "Internal" bi-wiring (a single cable where some of the conductors feed the tweeter and some of the conductors feed the woofer) only provides about 1/3 the benefits of "external" biwiring (two completely separate runs of identical wiring).

b) Bi-wiring with non-identical cables is stupid. It just leads to incoherent sound. The idea that you can use a cable with "good bass" on the woofers seems attractive from a theoretical standpoint, but doesn't work in real life.

c) External biwiring achieves about 80% to 90% of the sound improvement of passive bi-amping when using identical amps and identical wires. The extra amp will give a *little* bit of extra dynamics, but nothing in proportion to the increased cost (*twice* as much!).

d) Vertical bi-amping (one stereo amp per speaker) sounds slightly more dynamic, but horizontal bi-amping (one stereo amp for the woofers, etc.) sounds noticeably more coherent.

The bottom line is this:

1) Bi-amping is terribly cost-ineffective. You are always way better off to get one good amp than two less good amps.

2) True (external) bi-wiring improves the sound significantly. The added cost (unless you are talking about stupid cables that cost more than a good amp) is money well spent.

[RebelMan]

Nice find tboooe. I agree with Charlie and have gone on record saying as such. I use two identical cable runs for bi-wiring each channel as well.

[RedWolf]

I biwire my speakers as well. I did find a sonic improvement in the highs, but slight. I know this because I replaced my wire with an identical brand/level when I went to biwire.

[RNKC]

OK, so tboooe's / Charles' post notwithstanding, it seems the general concensus is that bi-wiring makes little to no sonic difference at least with 800 series speakers.

So, why then does B&W (and others) offer the choice of bi-wiring?

[Kal Rubinson]

So, why then does B&W (and others) offer the choice of bi-wiring?

One highly-placed B&W exec told me that "the dealers were demanding it." :E

Kal

[RebelMan]

One highly-placed B&W exec told me that "the dealers were demanding it." :E

Kal

That sounds a bit fishy to me Kal. Since when are dealers telling the engineers what to do? Passing on wish list information from their client base I can accept but heeding dealers frivolous demands, I don't think so.

There are numerous other speaker brands carried by the same dealers that sell B&W's and I don't see them running with dual binding posts. I would rather have seen Dr. John Dibbs or Dr. Peter Fryer provide you an answer to the question instead.

I believe what the exec told you but I have trouble buying into what seems like a "brush off" answer to me.

[Kal Rubinson]

That sounds a bit fishy to me Kal. Since when are dealers telling the engineers what to do? Passing on wish list information from their client base I can accept but heeding dealers frivolous demands, I don't think so.

Well, why not? Do you think B&W doesn't listen to their dealers? Dealers want to sell more cable and, although I am not a proponent of biwiring, there is no performance compromise involved.

IMHO, it is more likely to be a marketing, than an engineering, decision.

Kal

[RebelMan]

What incentive does that give B&W? Of all the B&W dealers that I have known or dealt with in twenty years past, NONE have ever pushed bi-wiring on me. They have offered to sell me interconnects and cables, sometimes pricey ones, but that was the extent of it. I tend to agree that some marketing is involved but on the basis of an engineered option. I wouldn't agree that it was on the basis of marketing alone.

[Kal Rubinson]

Well, obviously, we do not know what went on behind B&W's doors and have only whisps to grab. Sure, it is an "engineered option" but we still have to question who put it on the "to do" list.

[RebelMan]

Agreed. That's why I think a visit to the "doctor" would help to cure our ill's. :lol:

[dknightd]

As long as the crossover supports biwiring, as a speaker maker you'd almost be silly not to spring for two extra binding posts. The cost is small, and some people think there is a benifit.

[RNKC]

I agree that it's much more likely a marketing thing than an engineering one. It's a pretty easy sell for a higher end (and thus, higher priced) speaker to show the back with 4 binding posts instead of 2. The immediate conclusion that anyone would come to is that 4 must somehow be better than 2.

Anyway, I don't bi-wire my speakers. I have considered it for the mains (N802) but after reading this thread, I think I can safely skip the bi-wiring.

[misterdoggy]

Hi Guys,

I thought I would post this for general knowledge. Comes from the "Horses Mouth" and passed on to you

The whole concept of bi-wiring is to reduce the distortions present within the hifi system, similar in a way to those consumers who use balanced XLR's as opposed to single ended RCA leads.

The issue is created by the bass drivers themselves, they are their own worst enemy. As the bass drivers produce movements to produce sounds, they are at the same time producing a current called "back-EMF" (produced by the coil in the permanent magnet), the higher the volume, the greater the excursion and in turn the greater the "back-EMF" produced. And to make matters worse, the more bass drivers you have in a given design, the greater the "back-EMF".

It is this "back-EMF" which contaminates the signal which goes through the short jumper-links (if you use them) and colours/distorts the upper frequency information. Simply using jumper links made from your existing loudspeaker cable does not eliminate the contamination existent from the "back EMF"

By sending dedicated cables to the upper sections on a loudspeaker separate from the lower section (bi-wiring), you are effectively separating the crossovers, and the "back EMF" is dissipated enough within the cable lengths to be non-existent.

Of course, by design, a 3-way loudspeaker will benefit greater than a 2-way loudspeaker as the "back-EMF" is separated from the midrange & treble as opposed to just the treble unit in a 2-way loudspeaker.

"Back-EMF" is present in every loudspeaker. No matter how good their design, nothing will filter out the "back EMF" produced by the bass drivers voice coils.

How you, the listener, interpret those micro-distortion reductions is down to your judgement, also how loud you play your systems, how much your room interacts and of course how revealing your system is.

[misterdoggy]

Bi-wiring would be more apparent at higher volumes where the back EMF produced by the high excursion of the bass drivers would be affecting the mid and high frequencies resolution, and also down to the bass content of the material being played.

Jacques Lousier Trio - Baroque Favourites - track 2 I have found reveals the benefit of bi-wiring at it's very best!

The double bass is so dominant that it makes the bass units excursion high and the back-EMF masks the piano and hi-hats resolution, however in bi-wiring the resolution is at normal level as the back EMF is dissipated through the run of cables thus has no effect on the mids and highs. similar in a way to not using the bass drivers in the system. It is the addition of the bass drivers that introduces the issue.

does that make it clearer?

[Kal Rubinson]

Hi Guys,

I thought I would post this for general knowledge. Comes from the "Horses Mouth" and passed on to you

The whole concept of bi-wiring is to reduce the distortions present within the hifi system, similar in a way to those consumers who use balanced XLR's as opposed to single ended RCA leads.

Balanced wiring does not reduce distortion so this argument is a non-sequitur.

The issue is created by the bass drivers themselves, they are their own worst enemy. As the bass drivers produce movements to produce sounds, they are at the same time producing a current called "back-EMF" (produced by the coil in the permanent magnet), the higher the volume, the greater the excursion and in turn the greater the "back-EMF" produced. And to make matters worse, the more bass drivers you have in a given design, the greater the "back-EMF".

It is this "back-EMF" which contaminates the signal which goes through the short jumper-links (if you use them) and colours/distorts the upper frequency information. Simply using jumper links made from your existing loudspeaker cable does not eliminate the contamination existent from the "back EMF"

By sending dedicated cables to the upper sections on a loudspeaker separate from the lower section (bi-wiring), you are effectively separating the crossovers, and the "back EMF" is dissipated enough within the cable lengths to be non-existent.

Excuse me but that is nonsense. The back EMF is dissipated at the virtual ground which is created by the low-impedance at the amp's output. The only way that the cable can "dissipate" any such EMF is if the cable had such a high resistance that you would find it unsuitable for audio.

"Back-EMF" is present in every loudspeaker. No matter how good their design, nothing will filter out the "back EMF" produced by the bass drivers voice coils.

Of course, but that doesn't make your arguments about it valid.

Kal

[misterdoggy]

Hey Kal,

Haven't heard from you in a while

The post was sent to me by a tech who works at B&W in the UK factory, reads our forum, but does not post directly due to conflicts. I am sure he will read your responses and respond in kind.

[Tim-Ann]

Hi there,

Sorry to butt in but I've been following this thread and have just Bi-Wired my 802's so was curious as to B&W's view on Bi-Wiring.

Below some of the response sent to me from B&W Product Support, UK.

Hi Tim,

Many thanks for your email enquiry regarding recommending bi-wiring speakers.

In general we would always suggest that bi-wiring loudspeakers has the potential to improve the overall sound of most hi-fi systems and we strongly recommend it.

The whole concept of bi-wiring is to reduce the distortions present within the hifi system, similar in a way to those consumers who use balanced XLR's as opposed to single ended RCA leads.

Yours sincerely.


I'm not sure if it is correct to publish the Support Staff name so I haven't.

Hope this hepls, Tim.

[Kal Rubinson]

Hey Kal,

Haven't heard from you in a while

The post was sent to me by a tech who works at B&W in the UK factory, reads our forum, but does not post directly due to conflicts. I am sure he will read your responses and respond in kind.

I see the quoted post which is quite weak in explaining anything technical, although such was not really its intent. I would welcome his response.

BTW, while I am not a proponent of bi-wiring, I do understand that many like it and I would not take issue with a personal preference. (In fact, I am a de facto user of bi-wiring.) What gets me going are explanations that do not explain anything.

Kal

[RebelMan]

BTW, while I am not a proponent of bi-wiring, I do understand that many like it and I would not take issue with a personal preference. (In fact, I am a de facto user of bi-wiring.) What gets me going are explanations that do not explain anything.

Gotta love ya Kal but your position borders on the line of hypocracy. :W

It has been scientifically proven that there is a difference between mono and bi-wiring. Whether that difference is audibly relevant is the only question. The only answer to which is subjective.

I offer you this interesting read... Bi-Wiring From Amplifier To Loudspeaker

Enough of the LAME excuses Kal, it's time to step out of the closet and admit that you are (and have been) bi-wiring for the same reasons that the rest of us do it. :W

[Kal Rubinson]

Gotta love ya Kal but your position borders on the line of hypocracy. :W

It has been scientifically proven that there is a difference between mono and bi-wiring. Whether that difference is audibly relevant is the only question. The only answer to which is subjective.

Audibility is the only issue, of course. However, that can be tested objectively and should be. Until then, I (like the rest of you) will trust my own ears.

Enough of the LAME excuses Kal, it's time to step out of the closet and admit that you are (and have been) bi-wiring for the same reasons that the rest of us do it. :W

Nope. I only bi-wire three speakers of the total of 13 (not counting subs) in use in my 3 systems. And that at the insistence of the cable manufacturer.

Kal

[RebelMan]

Audibility is the only issue, of course. However, that can be tested objectively and should be. Until then, I (like the rest of you) will trust my own ears.

Agreed for the most part but measurements can be a double edge sword and you know that. Please read the article!

I only bi-wire three speakers of the total of 13 (not counting subs) in use in my 3 systems. And that at the insistence of the cable manufacturer.

Same here, the fronts of my B&Ws like you do. It could be that you don't own some of the speakers in your other systems, unlike your B&Ws, so what's the point right? I wouldn't put your Paradigm Studios in the same class as your B&Ws either so the expense of bi-wiring would probably be disproportionate and unjustifiable.

It's your "insistence" that changing out the cables is too inconvenient that gets me going. As if the monolithic monster amplifiers that you have reviewed not so long ago were more convenient to get into place and hook up. Yeah right, like that is a convincing statement. So what you really are saying is that you are a push over? That's what I call LAME. LOL