Velodyne DD-12 to complement B&W 600 series or something else?

[nikos]

I've been running my 5.1 setup based on the B&W 600 series (604's, LCR600, DS6) without the .1 for a little while and I'm considering getting the DD12.

Anybody using this sub?

Should I be looking elsewhere?

Is it a consensous that the DD12 is better bang for the buck than the B&W equivalent for the money?

Thanks,

Nick

[Dmantis]

I've been running my 5.1 setup based on the B&W 600 series (604's, LCR600, DS6) without the .1 for a little while and I'm considering getting the DD12.

Anybody using this sub?

Should I be looking elsewhere?

Is it a consensous that the DD12 is better bang for the buck than the B&W equivalent for the money?

Thanks,

Nick

I don't think so. B&W makes very nice subs. They are very musical. If you buy a sub from Velodyne, B&W's compared price sub will be more musical.
Now the DD12 is a very nice home theater sub, it shakes the place and does it proudly. But musical they are not. Years ago before the Digital drive series, Velodyne subs where ery muscial. I liked them alot. I have alot of experience with most of there subs from year to year.

Dan

[stewfoo]

I don't think so. B&W makes very nice subs. They are very musical. If you buy a sub from Velodyne, B&W's compared price sub will be more musical.
Now the DD12 is a very nice home theater sub, it shakes the place and does it proudly. But musical they are not. Years ago before the Digital drive series, Velodyne subs where ery muscial. I liked them alot. I have alot of experience with most of there subs from year to year.

Dan

I would respectfully disagree with this. I am a huge Velodyne fan. B&W has not really been in the same league with the DD series. The amazing ability to match sub with the mains is incredibly valuable. There is a british forum that has extensive testing with most subs on the market and the DD series from top to bottom destroys whats out there.

I started with a REL Stentor, which is supposed to be an "audiophile" sub. Let me tell you, when I switched to the DD-18 I was simply amazed at the job it did both in HT as well as 2-ch stereo (digital out/using Classe ssp-300 processor ).

I am totally impressed with the DD's musicality (highest servo control) as well as it to rattle your inside with HT.

I have 12 foot ceilings and a 3500 sq foot house (single story) with a completely open viewing room... and that sub pressurizes the entire house!!! Trust me, It rocks
Stew

[audioqueso]

I don't think so. B&W makes very nice subs. They are very musical. If you buy a sub from Velodyne, B&W's compared price sub will be more musical.
Now the DD12 is a very nice home theater sub, it shakes the place and does it proudly. But musical they are not. Years ago before the Digital drive series, Velodyne subs where ery muscial. I liked them alot. I have alot of experience with most of there subs from year to year.

Dan

I don't think you have had the pleasure of owning any of the new sealed subs from Velodyne.

"...very nice home theater sub, it shakes the place and does it proudly. But musical they are not..."
Far from the truth. These subs excel so much more in music. I use to owned a ASW600 when I had my 600 setup. I moved up to the 805s, and searched for a couple of months for a sub that was execellent with music. I auditioned subs from Klipsch, to SVS, to Paradigm, to Velodyne, and a few others. I had planned to use it for HT as well, but I was not concern for HT performance. I only auditioned subs for music. I did audition the DD-10 vs the SPL-R 1000. The DD was a bit more definted, and definitely extended lower, but for the price difference, I did not need that much. I was initially going to go with the SPL-R 1000, but I had found a great deal for the SPL-R 800 and I only paid $100 than what I paid for my ASW-600 (and Tweeters told me it would take 6-8 weeks to order it in cherry). I had my doubts with an 8" inch 1000watt sub, but I took my chance and bought it. I have absolutely no regrets. Plus the cherry matches my 805s perfectly. It's very impressive and definitely has more muscle for HT than the ASW-600 did. I play all types of music from classical, to balads, to hip-hop, to house, to rock, to jazz, everything pretty much. I love how it performs with all types of music.... especially how fast it reacts to house/techo music. Very tight and punches hard.

The B&W sub I had was nice, but definitely not worth the price.
Is the DD12 a better bang for the buck than the B&W equivalent for the money? Yes.

[stewfoo]

Also, the DD series has been out for quite a while and there is tons of profit margin in that line... If you shop it you can find HUGE discounts.. I purchased my DD-18, which lists for $5k, for $3.8k. I just bought a second DD-18 for an even better price (new). I am a bit of a bass head. But truly my system is balanced at all db levels. It just has tons of bass headroom.
Stew

[zorg]

may wish to also consider the new SVS PB12

review here

http://www.audioholics.com/productre...B12Plus2p1.php

[Elmac]

I don't think so. B&W makes very nice subs. They are very musical. If you buy a sub from Velodyne, B&W's compared price sub will be more musical.
Now the DD12 is a very nice home theater sub, it shakes the place and does it proudly. But musical they are not. Years ago before the Digital drive series, Velodyne subs where ery muscial. I liked them alot. I have alot of experience with most of there subs from year to year.

Dan

Sorry but I also have to disagree with this
Just orders DD12
and unfortunatly it outperform B&W subs for both HT and music I listyn to DVD-A in DTS 96/24 and watch about an hr of diffrent movies.
And man was I impress
Elmac

[stewfoo]

Elmac,
Did you go through the full calibration process?? It is a bit time consuming. But the RTA shows you such small changes in room accoustical response... i.e. when I open and shut adjoining bedroom doors..etc It truly is a great line of subs.. It eliminates the itch for upgraditis. After going to avtalk.co.uk ( a british forum) I was pretty sold on this sub.
Stew

[scottielee]

the DD12 is very musical to my ears, especially when i listen to piano, cello, and drums. i have one DD12 and a pair of Signature 805. i almost forgot that i previously wanted two subs.

[akhter]

I don't think so. B&W makes very nice subs. They are very musical. If you buy a sub from Velodyne, B&W's compared price sub will be more musical.
Now the DD12 is a very nice home theater sub, it shakes the place and does it proudly. But musical they are not. Years ago before the Digital drive series, Velodyne subs where ery muscial. I liked them alot. I have alot of experience with most of there subs from year to year.

Dan

Couldn't disagree more. I use my DD12 (to go with my N804 L+R and XTC Centers) for almost half the price of a ASW850. In fact my B&W dealer told me to go with the Velo as he could give me better discount--I don't think valuewise the B&W 800 series subs can touch the Digital Drive series, especially with the fantasic calibration tools they provide. Dont' get me wrong...the B&W subs are great. I also happen to think the DD series is very musical and actually not very HT suited. For HT/ high SPL I would personally consider SVS subs. I did audition REL and B&W subs before going with a DD12.

On a different note, I think the DD12 is overkill for 600 series. My friend who has 604 also bought the B&W ASW675, with I think is one of the best subs in the $1000 price range, and it blends perfectly with the 600 series. I haven't actually heard a DD integrated with a 600 series, but if I had that kind of money for my setup, I would upgrade my fronts first and get a more modest sub...my 2 cents.

[audioqueso]

I haven't actually heard a DD integrated with a 600 series, but if I had that kind of money for my setup, I would upgrade my fronts first and get a more modest sub...my 2 cents.

+1
If it's just a sub you are looking for I would actually recommend the SPL-R series for the 600 series. The DD might be a bit overkill.

[nikos]

Thanks to everybody for the multiple opinions on this.

Is there such a thing as too much bass?

I listen to purely electronic music that is by default very bass heavy.
I really was fond of the remark of Tequeso's comment "I love how it performs with all types of music.... especially how fast it reacts to house/techo music. Very tight and punches hard." since that is what I'm going to be using it for.
Plus the eq...since I have a "weird" room...

Ofcourse the HT rattle will be nice.

My setup is less than 6mo old and not quite ready to get rid of the 604's...
I'm not as interested in the loudness of the bass, as much as a very tight accurate low punch.

I might even be crazy....and be looking at an eviction notice soon...as I currently live in a apartment

I just dont want to buy something that would be awesome today and not have to upgrade later when I eventually get different fronts....

How much are you guys paying for the DD12?

Nikos

[Boone38]

I would agree with the other posts that the DD12 is a better sub for both the HT and 2 channel. I have listened to the DD. SPL and the B & W. I have owned both in the past.
Currently I have the 804s and shopping for the right sub. Looking at the DD12
or the 15 as I have a very large room to fill.

I would also agree that the dd is too much for the 600 series speakers. As for the over powering of the speakers? I do not think you can have too much base as most you can dial down. A better way to think of it is can I use the sub to its full potential. A 12" sub will go to 20 htz and still be a good match to your 604s. If you go larger the sub can go lower but you may not be able to use all of its potential and yes can be over bearing.
A larger room will of cousre need a larger sub. My room is about 25'x20' and I have the 804s on the long side. The DD12 will fill this nicely.

Good luck

[Angioguy]

Dd-12

Inasmuch as I love my B&W's, I would have to say that I think the Velodyne DD-12 is simply better than any sub B&W has to offer-- it is truly a superb piece of equipment, from the digital software permitting room correcting equalization, to its full-featured remote control, this company makes incredible subs. Their reputation is second to none... I listened to B&W, Rel, Revel and a few others-- whether it's for music or home theater, this sub does it all!

[gross30]

I haven't heard the B&W subs, but I am using 2 Velodyne DD 15's with B&W 801 matrix series 3, and am very pleased. HT bass is incredible with these subs, and 2 CH in my opinion, is excellant also. Whichever sub you decide, I'm sure you will be pleased, as they both make great products.

[RH Customs]

I would go with the ASW 600 or ASW 650. I'm running a ASW 300 with my DM 303's and man the 300 is awesome both for music ( my primary interest) as well as movies. B&W's make the best subs in my opinion.

[JimTW]

I see several of you praise the DD-12. Was wondering if you'd consider
the DD-10 equally as impressive or if the DD-12 is one of the special
Velo subs.

Tks!

[stewfoo]

The entire DD line is awesome. I use a DD-18 with a second on the way.. When I was in car audio it was always a given that smaller subs were "tighter" or more controlled. Servo control changed these rules. My DD-18 is amazingly controlled especially with the highest servo setting.

[norpus]

The entire DD line is awesome.

Agreed with the DD sub - they do sound good and go nice and low.
Low sub bass is important to both music and HT and often people don't know what they are missing till they've heard a great setup. Then no arguments - they just go and buy what they have just heard. There is also little substitute for cubes if you have a big room - then you'll need the bigger sub. OP, consider the DD a step in the right direction for your upgrade path of the next 10 years
And for the record, the big sub worked wonders for my 600 series based system before I upgraded the mains

[Stevebez]

I got 803D's and DD12 ... absolutely fantastic combo in theatre AND music. Music is what really blew me away ( I guess I was expecting good theatre). 803's running off Rotel 1092 (500x500). So in 2.1 I am totally "digital" in amplification and let me tell you this is where the future lies. Anyway I digress....

I cannot comment on the B&W subs but this DD-12 is the tightest bass I have ever heard this side of ... well a DD15/18 :W . Not boomy at all but punchy and accurate. I never take it off the max servo setting - have no need as there is 3kw of peak power in this puppy, and also there is no point to turn down the accuracy.

I have to say (and agree with whats been said) with yre combo I think DD-12 is overkill.

[neil w]

how are you guys connecting your dd subs for 2 chanel use

cheers neil

[gross30]

I have a RX-Z9 HT amp, and it has (2) LFE outputs, one for right and one for left, or if you choose mono. (single sub) With (2) Velodyne subs, you can run them as a "chain" or left and right respectively. You just have to adjust each sub seperately on initial setup if you run them left and right. With the onscreen setup, it was a breeze to setup.

[ZX10 Guy]

My Meridian has the possibility for multiple sub configurations. I can theoretically have 3 subs running in my system. I'm currently running 2. I have a HGS12 I'm running full time with both music and HT. I have a HGS15 I use for LFE when I'm watching movies. For simplicity sake, I'm pulling the cabling for the L and R sub into the HGS12 and leaving it up to the sub to sum the channels together. The configuration works great. Will be even better once the DD18 arives which will replace the HGS12.

[neil w]

sorry guys ill be more specific
i use a g68 for ht and a naim 552/500 for two chanel
ive bought a dd18 and can understand the lfe for ht use, how can i connect it to the naim amp for 2 chanel use
when i use the rel it was soldered in at the amp end of the speaker cables
but the dd18 has speaker conns for left and right , can i conect these into the back of my n802 or has it got to be the amp

cheers neil

[Stevebez]

how are you guys connecting your dd subs for 2 chanel use

cheers neil

I cross the pre-pro sub output at 60hz this then feeds into the dd12 software which is really pretty smart and squaring things up and smoothing it all out. (requires some auto & manual Eq-ing to get it spot on).

The other way is to have the front full range and the dd12 full range and then blend the output via the DD12 software ... this is perhaps the best method as you make best use of the fronts, but will be more of a limitation on the fronts if the amp does not have enough headroom ...

To be honest I dont know which way I have it set to at mom ... !!! But will check - all I know is it sounds really tight and fast down low. I need to try this alternative 2 again now that I have the Rb1092 rotel amp (frm a rb1080).

Pre-pro is Rotel 1068.

[akhter]

how are you guys connecting your dd subs for 2 chanel use

cheers neil

I have an Arcam AVR300 and I much prefer the "Stereo Direct" mode than any DSP mode for 2ch CD playback so I connect the FL + FR pre-outs to my DD12.

[Stevebez]

Update re sub connection:

I currently run my front 803D's at 60hz crossover from the pro/pro, and pass full range to the sub. I then EQ the sub to blend with the fronts... I am thinking about crossing the fronts at 40hz and then blending the sub, but have not had time to try this out. This may be better and give a less directional bass output from the sub which is at rear of room ( ops: ). I may even try it with fronts in full range (large) setting and see how this compares ...

I have the fronts at 60z 'coz I was runing it off a RB1080 which just did not have enuf guts to get the very lows out of the 803's. The RB1092 has got plenty guts for this now...

The 803's in full range bypass (i.e. sans sub) off the 1092 has plenty of low end for music ... but no rumble for movies...

Rgds Steve.

[stewfoo]

how are you guys connecting your dd subs for 2 chanel use

cheers neil

I use the digital outputs from my sources and let the DACs of my classe divert signal to the sub

[WI Rotel]

Velodyne makes great subs but I must concur they are not as "musical" as BW subs. If its wall shaking you want sunfire is even better. Many video fans don't really like BW subs because they lack room shaking low extension, however, they are the most transparent and sonically acurate you can buy. The larger subs are very powerful and expensive, my expirience with the PV1 is that its sonically beautiful but its output is limited even with its 500 watt amp, that's why I bought 2 (so it was expensive anyway!). one thing to consider is that 1 sub unless placed in the center of the listening area may not be enough. if your listening area is not square and you have the sub at one end of the room, you won't know the exact position of the sub, but you will definitely notice that one side of the room is more bass heavy than the other. Another point is if you set your crossover to 80hz the directionaly of the sub is even more noticeable. Happy shopping!

[ZX10 Guy]

Velodyne makes great subs but I must concur they are not as "musical" as BW subs. If its wall shaking you want sunfire is even better. Many video fans don't really like BW subs because they lack room shaking low extension, however, they are the most transparent and sonically acurate you can buy. The larger subs are very powerful and expensive, my expirience with the PV1 is that its sonically beautiful but its output is limited even with its 500 watt amp, that's why I bought 2 (so it was expensive anyway!). one thing to consider is that 1 sub unless placed in the center of the listening area may not be enough. if your listening area is not square and you have the sub at one end of the room, you won't know the exact position of the sub, but you will definitely notice that one side of the room is more bass heavy than the other. Another point is if you set your crossover to 80hz the directionaly of the sub is even more noticeable. Happy shopping!

I can't see how you're saying the Velodyne DD series is less accurate and musical. From the servo control and sampling of the voice coil movement to the room EQ capabilities, I would say the Velodyne package is hard to beat.

[stewfoo]

Velodyne makes great subs but I must concur they are not as "musical" as BW subs. If its wall shaking you want sunfire is even better. Many video fans don't really like BW subs because they lack room shaking low extension, however, they are the most transparent and sonically acurate you can buy.

OK. This is crazy talk. We need to ID you now. You must be a dealer or work for Equity. At least other REPs of the B&W group that post in this forum make legitimate knowledge-based claims. I hate to make things personal in this forum. But, you are either: A.) just writing to see yourself write.. B.)you are just misinformed C.) You are working for the B&W Group.

All I ask is that you base your claims somewhere in the vicinity of reality.

[Aussie Geoff]

Stew,

We don't allow posts in this forum to get personal... That (if you must) should be done by PMs or Emails...

To me WI Rotel seems like he has bought two PV1s (which he acknoweldges ae expensive) and is passionate about their quality. Equally there are others that are passionate about their Velodydne DD's or SVS (I love my twin Dali SWA-15s'). That's OK. You can be pasionate about your sub too. It doesn't make others wrong - they are just opinions about things like "musicality"...

That asside - I'd take the DD-12 over the PV1s' but then I'd take the B&W 855 over the DD-12 and then the DD-18 over the B&W... So I like to be flexible

Geoff

[WI Rotel]

Stew,

We don't allow posts in this forum to get personal... That (if you must) should be done by PMs or Emails...

To me WI Rotel seems like he has bought two PV1s (which he acknoweldges ae expensive) and is passionate about their quality. Equally there are others that are passionate about their Velodydne DD's or SVS (I love my twin Dali SWA-15s'). That's OK. You can be pasionate about your sub too. It doesn't make others wrong - they are just opinions about things like "musicality"...

That asside - I'd take the DD-12 over the PV1s' but then I'd take the B&W 855 over the DD-12 and then the DD-18 over the B&W... So I like to be flexible


Geoff

Please note that I didn't mention the PV1. I was reffering to BW subs in general.

[WI Rotel]

OK. This is crazy talk. We need to ID you now. You must be a dealer or work for Equity. At least other REPs of the B&W group that post in this forum make legitimate knowledge-based claims. I hate to make things personal in this forum. But, you are either: A.) just writing to see yourself write.. B.)you are just misinformed C.) You are working for the B&W Group.

All I ask is that you base your claims somewhere in the vicinity of reality.

Dear stew, musicality is in the ear of the beholder. At no time have I implied that velodyne sucks. My first sentence actually extols them. BW woofers and subs attempt to eliminate all harmonic distortion from the cabinet, cones and hardware. No othe speaker maker can boast to beat BW harmonic bass distortion levels (check the 802 specs in that regard) thus to some they sound a little sterile. In fact its not sterility at all but rather the utter absence of any additional sound that was not in the recording to begin with. In video, these imperfections are unimportant, in fact the are welcome to increase the dynamic effect. Thus my description of velodyne as slightly less musical. This is after all the BW forum you wouldn't expect most guys around here to be completely unbiased against our own gear would you?

[ZX10 Guy]

No othe speaker maker can boast to beat BW harmonic bass distortion levels (check the 802 specs in that regard) thus to some they sound a little sterile.

I just don't know where to even begin with this statement. I guess I'll let actual measurements speak for me.

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=13377&start=0&rid=0&SQ=0

[ZX10 Guy]

Here's some more measurements done with the updated DD software:

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=18356&start=0&rid=0&SQ=0

[WI Rotel]

A picture speaks a thousand words. The publication you quote is testing outdoors. Im not an electical engineer but even I know that speaker measurements have to be done in an anechoic chamber!

Here is a nice demo of what Im reffering to:

http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.techfeatures/ObjectID/3A7556CF%2D4779%2D11D4%2DA67F00D0B7473B37

The PV1 does not use matrix. instead it uses an even more revolutionary concept more appropriate for its size which makes internal bracing unnecessary:

http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.techfeatures/ObjectID/5519940E-37B8-4F28-B946AC19F5EB4C48

[ZX10 Guy]

A picture speaks a thousand words. The publication you quote is testing outdoors. Im not an electical engineer but even I know that speaker measurements have to be done in an anechoic chamber!

These were measurements done in the tester's room. Scroll down. Here's his narrative concerning his in room testing:

"To follow up my earlier point about measuring in-room, here are some comparative plots taken with one of my DD-18's measured in position in my room. I actually set the subsonic filter to 35Hz, 6dB slope to help to tame the room gain a bit with this new software - this was not necessary with V2.0. The response was then EQd reasonably flat up to 80Hz and a series of sweeps performed at progressivley higher levels, as measured at my normal listening position (about 2.4m away). Just for a change, these charts are unsmoothed, partly to demonstrate the depth and narrowness of the suckout at 93Hz in my room. I need to treat this with bass traps when I get around to it.

Ignore everything above about 80Hz, especially the 93Hz suckout. Also note the effect on the distortion plot of applying boost from a couple of EQ sliders around 50-55Hz (3.5dB and 4.0 dB respectively) and 2.5dB at 65Hz. Headroom gets limited as shown on the Power Compression chart, and distortion is higher due to the greater demands on the amp/driver, as well as the fact that I am not totally correcting the dip in the fundamental by limiting the boost, and the complex effect of the room interaction itself.
"

[WI Rotel]

These were measurements done in the tester's room. Scroll down. Here's his narrative concerning his in room testing:

"To follow up my earlier point about measuring in-room, here are some comparative plots taken with one of my DD-18's measured in position in my room. I actually set the subsonic filter to 35Hz, 6dB slope to help to tame the room gain a bit with this new software - this was not necessary with V2.0. The response was then EQd reasonably flat up to 80Hz and a series of sweeps performed at progressivley higher levels, as measured at my normal listening position (about 2.4m away). Just for a change, these charts are unsmoothed, partly to demonstrate the depth and narrowness of the suckout at 93Hz in my room. I need to treat this with bass traps when I get around to it.

Ignore everything above about 80Hz, especially the 93Hz suckout. Also note the effect on the distortion plot of applying boost from a couple of EQ sliders around 50-55Hz (3.5dB and 4.0 dB respectively) and 2.5dB at 65Hz. Headroom gets limited as shown on the Power Compression chart, and distortion is higher due to the greater demands on the amp/driver, as well as the fact that I am not totally correcting the dip in the fundamental by limiting the boost, and the complex effect of the room interaction itself.
"

Looks very nice but yu are ignoring the little problem in th 50 -70 hz area which begins around 80db and becomes a significant suck as the level goes up. That my friend is cabinet resonance. BW's do not suffer from that type of "imperfection" due to patented techniques described above. The ultra major suck at 90 Hz is known as second order resonance and it also inherent to the enclosure. Again these findings are on electrical measurement, to the ear they are simply slightly different "tonalities" which may be liked or disliked by the individual listener. To some these "imperfections" add character to the sound to others they are better known as coloration. BW mantra is the perfect reproduction of sound thus coloration is frowned upon. Some folks like it, some don't. A nice demonstration of these techniques can be aesily done with the PV1 (no charts necessary) Blast a PV1 with any music at full blast while touching the enclosure. You will not feel a thing better yet put a glass of water on it and look at the ripples! Do that on any other sub and see how you end up wet :rollhead:

[ZX10 Guy]

Looks very nice but yu are ignoring the little problem in th 50 -70 hz area which begins around 80db and becomes a significant suck as the level goes up. That my friend is cabinet resonance. BW's do not suffer from that type of "imperfection" due to patented techniques described above. The ultra major suck at 90 Hz is known as second order resonance and it also inherent to the enclosure. Again these findings are on electrical measurement, to the ear they are simply slightly different "tonalities" which may be liked or disliked by the individual listener. To some these "imperfections" add character to the sound to others they are better known as coloration. BW mantra is the perfect reproduction of sound thus coloration is frowned upon. Some folks like it, some don't. A nice demonstration of these techniques can be aesily done with the PV1 (no charts necessary) Blast a PV1 with any music at full blast while touching the enclosure. You will not feel a thing better yet put a glass of water on it and look at the ripples! Do that on any other sub and see how you end up wet :rollhead:

Could you post up some real numbers instead of pointing to marketing hype? So far you haven't provided one ounce of real measured evidence to support your statements.

BTW, if you think I'm a B&W hater, I'm not. I have 2 N805s, 4 N804s, and a N HTM1.

[RobP]

WI,
I can appreciate your enthusiasm for the B&W product, I am a B&W owner and advocate of their product as well, but only because it suits my taste and I think that they present a great value in terms of performance to price ratios compared to other brands, but are they perfect? (this answer may get me voted off of the island) No. There is no perfect speaker. Just perfect opinions from their owners and creators.
I used to own a B&W ASW850 sub and thought it was perfect, I touted how perfect I thought it was, I even had exchanges with other members over those same charts that you posted, I thought that everyone should sell whatever they had and buy one, because it sounded perfect to me, that was until........I heard the Martin Logan Descent, then all of the sudden, my 850 didn't sound so perfect anymore, in my setup the ML brought out more bass detail, played lower, was more accurate, and took my system to a whole other level than the 850 ever did. I was really surprised to find this out, was I wrong about the B&W being perfect? :scratchhead: Or was I wrong about my perfect opinon of it?


BTW, I would recommend the use of a coaster under your glass on that PV1. :W

[akhter]

Looks very nice but yu are ignoring the little problem in th 50 -70 hz area which begins around 80db and becomes a significant suck as the level goes up. That my friend is cabinet resonance. BW's do not suffer from that type of "imperfection" due to patented techniques described above. The ultra major suck at 90 Hz is known as second order resonance and it also inherent to the enclosure. Again these findings are on electrical measurement, to the ear they are simply slightly different "tonalities" which may be liked or disliked by the individual listener. To some these "imperfections" add character to the sound to others they are better known as coloration. BW mantra is the perfect reproduction of sound thus coloration is frowned upon. Some folks like it, some don't. A nice demonstration of these techniques can be aesily done with the PV1 (no charts necessary) Blast a PV1 with any music at full blast while touching the enclosure. You will not feel a thing better yet put a glass of water on it and look at the ripples! Do that on any other sub and see how you end up wet :rollhead:

Lol thats a fanboy response. I had the pleasure of listening to both a PV1 and a Velo SPL-800R, and they were about the same in performance, although the B&W looked much nicer (but it was more expensive too). Comparing PV1 to a DD (even the small 10" one) series sub and refereing to marketing hype (revolutionary product blah blah) as the reason is useless. Go have listen and compare please (as I did). I heard the DD10 to be on a completely different league to the PV1 (ended up getting a DD12). Don't get me wrong, I am not against B&W or even the XT series (I have the XTC center) along with N804--but I believe in making expensive buying decisions based on listening tests, not on marketing hype, or other people's reviews.

With subwoofer's, room acoustics play a major part, not just cabinet construction, and thats another area where B&W is lacking. Even they recognize it and have been trying to develop a digital correction system (like the DD) for the 800 series sub, but have yet to manage to get a product out the door. The sub (ASW865 i think) with the feature they list in the 800 series brochure have yet to make an appearance.

I know you love the PV1, and its a great piece of equipment, and for the size, it produces great bass. When I was shopping for a sub, I didn't want a great sub, I wanted the best I could have had under 3k, which the PV1 was not.

[mike c]

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=14971&start=0&rid=7164&SQ=1152870852

there were 4 b&w's tested at AVTALK

check out the distortion measurements.

[WI Rotel]

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index....&SQ=1152870852

there were 4 b&w's tested at AVTALK

check out the distortion measurements.

Thanks I couldn't find any reviews by just googling them. :T

[WI Rotel]

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index....&SQ=1152870852

there were 4 b&w's tested at AVTALK

check out the distortion measurements.

Yep
Absolutely 0 distortion from 50 HZ up pretty darned imppresive. As noted no cabinet resonances. There is distortion under 50 due to the fact that the bypass filter is off. I guess now we have electronic proof (not that it was needed) of the what I was describing before. :T