amps or speakers

[snowball]

in a hypothetical situation,where one must choose between spending more money on amps or speakers what would be your choice?

ex:

804s and classe
or
802D or 803d and rotels

[deke]

Personally, I'd go with your second option, but it depends on what you are upgrading from.

I remember reading in some Robert Harley article that you should spend about 1 1/2 times the amount you spend on your electronics on your speakers. Perhaps others can comment on this general rule of thumb.

[snowball]

actually i am upgrading from zero :P

[miner]

Your speakers will only produce what is given to them - spend $$$ on electronics (to a c3ertain extent). In my auditioning trials I found that Classe' was more 'elegant' sounding but for the $$ difference between Classe' & Rotel, Classe' did not sound $5000 better (Rotel RC-1090/RB-1092 vs Classe' CAP-500 & CA-2200).

[jim777]

I think that an old thread already covered the electronics versus speakers ratio.

If your idea is to complete your setup later, get the 802D's or 803D's now but getting better electronics later will make so much difference.

Don't forget, the source (CD player for example) especially if you use it's analog outs, is also very important. My system sounds very ordinary if I use a 800$ DVD player instead of a great CD player...

And my 703's sounded worse than 603s3's when amplified with a Rotel RC1070/RB1070 combo instead of the McIntosh MA6500 I got.

I would go for 802D/Rotel *only* if the idea is to get a better amp (and source?) later down the road

[miner]

I think that an old thread already covered the electronics versus speakers ratio.

If your idea is to complete your setup later, get the 802D's or 803D's now but getting better electronics later will make so much difference.

Don't forget, the source (CD player for example) especially if you use it's analog outs, is also very important. My system sounds very ordinary if I use a 800$ DVD player instead of a great CD player...

And my 703's sounded worse than 603s3's when amplified with a Rotel RC1070 instead of the McIntosh MA6500 I got.

I would go for 802D/Rotel *only* if the idea is to get a better amp (and source?) later down the road

Amplified with RB-1070? RC-1070 is the pre.

[greggz]

Many B&W dealers have a 1 year trade-in program where you get 100% of what you spent on your current B&W's applied toward your new B&W's. That is rarely the case with amplifiers.

The better financial decision would be to do the 804s + Classe now and then trade in the 804's toward the 803 or 802 within the next year.

[snowball]

well i am not sure if i am going to upgrade sooner or later...

i think its all going to be depending on my budget size on that time(i am planning to make the purchase aproxx. late summer),but i still wanted to have a more professional advice,so i asked here!!

i havent asked for the prices of the classe amps so i cant really tell the difference!!!

william

[Kobus]

i havent asked for the prices of the classe amps so i cant really tell the difference!!!

william

you better get those prices soon. I hope you know the prices of the "D's".

Anyway, I would get the best speakers first.

Kobus

[snowball]

if i recall correctly the 800D's are 8k(dollars) each...

not sure for the 802's and 803's though....

[greggz]

If I recall correctly, list prices on the 800 series are...

800D $10,000 (each)
801D $8,000 (each)
802D $6,000 (each)
803D $4,000 (each)
803S $2,750 (each)
804S $2,000 (each)
805S $1,250 (each)

[snowball]

thanx greggz for correcting me!!

one needs a *****( ops: sorry) house mortgage to get these speakers!but they are worth every single penny imo!!!

btw where do you get your prices,is it a site?
i would really like to know!!!!

William

[GregLett]

I think you need to put the $$$ into the speakers IMO. You would be surprised how well and old amp would play a good set of speakers. If you skimp on the speakers now, getting better source gear later wont' yield you much improvement.
I went the electronics first route and learned that lesson.

[Eliav]

I would rather drive a Mini Cooper with a well matched engine than a Mercedes
S 600 with a 4 cylinder 2 liter engine.
Hi Fi analogy would be 804s with Classe 2200 Vs 802d with Rotel 1095.


just my 2 cents...
Eliav

[GregLett]

I would rather drive a Mini Cooper with a well matched engine than a Mercedes
S 600 with a 4 cylinder 2 liter engine.
Hi Fi analogy would be 804s with Classe 2200 Vs 802d with Rotel 1095.


just my 2 cents...
Eliav

AHHH.. but what if you could pick up a V8 later which car would you want then?

[Fraise]

I think you need to put the $$$ into the speakers IMO. You would be surprised how well and old amp would play a good set of speakers. If you skimp on the speakers now, getting better source gear later wont' yield you much improvement.
I went the electronics first route and learned that lesson

I used to have a pair of nautilus 803's powered by an old 100W x 2 amp. They sounded good but when i picked up a classe CAV-180 and used 2 channels/speaker to power them the difference was increadible. I believe in spending money on speakers only if you can have the appropriate electronics to do them justice. i think its all about balance.

i think if its at all possible to stretch the budget to consider 803D W/ classe then that would be your best bet. otherwise would the 803S W/ classe be an option?

The 802D/803D are great speakers but i think its a tragedy to run them w/ rotel. The 804S are decent speakers but the difference between them and the 802D/803D is huge in terms of the low end performance.

[Eliav]

AHHH.. but what if you could pick up a V8 later which car would you want then?

I would take the Mini first, later install the V8 - enjoy a crazy fast and powerful car, and when the time comes, put the V8 to drive the Mercedes and sell the Mini.... :W
Eliav
P.S my current powerful " Mini" is 803s driven by Classe CAM 400... Mercedes (802D) is on the wish list

[snowball]

i am not sure if i can stretch my budget,for 802d and classe,but that would be ideal imo!

do you suppose that an rb-1090 or rb-1092 would NOT be enough food for the 802D's(or the 803D's) ???

[Kobus]

do you suppose that an rb-1090 or rb-1092 would NOT be enough food for the 802D's(or the 803D's) ???

It will most definitely be enough food, but there are food tasting differently out there.

In the end whether you go 803D & Rotel or 804 & Classe, both set-ups will without a doubt be great.

Which set-up will make you feel better.......go for that one.

For me, if that was the limit of my budget, I would go 803D + Rotel, not only will I feel better about it, but I think it might sound better. Diamond tweeter + that bass !!!!

Kobus

[GregLett]

I would take the Mini first, later install the V8 - enjoy a crazy fast and powerful car, and when the time comes, put the V8 to drive the Mercedes and sell the Mini.... :W
Eliav
P.S my current powerful " Mini" is 803s driven by Classe CAM 400... Mercedes (802D) is on the wish list

Good Answer.

[Aussie Geoff]

Snowball,

IMO the 802D and the Rotel RB-1092 would be a great choice... The 802D is (to my ears) very superior in its midrange than the 803D and the RB-1092 will drive it very well (though far from its potential)... Later a better amp will take it even further...

Let me support a sponsor and give you another choice - the NuForce Ref 9.02 - I've heard these on a verity of speakers and they will also do very well on the 802D... A pair of these will be about the same as the RB-1092... They are right up there with Classe in sound qualitty for my ears. Later when you want more - get a second pair and bi-amp!

But beg borrow or steal and get the 802Ds - a speaker for life!

Geoff

[bigburner]

snowball, I’ll play devil’s advocate here and risk incurring the wrath of my fellow hobbyists…

Go for the best speakers that you can afford because most amplifiers generally sound the same. This has been proved in numerous blind tests which consistently demonstrate that most people cannot tell the difference between a $500 amp and a $10,000 amp. Why? Because transistor amps are designed to accomplish only one job and that is to amplify an input signal with as little distortion as possible so that the recording on your CD or DVD is faithfully reproduced. They don’t do anything else. Expensive amps generally have less distortion than cheap amps, but unless it’s a very, very cheap amp the level of distortion is too low for the human ear to detect. The reason that the expensive amp sounds better in the hi-fi shop is because it has been turned up a bit louder by the salesman. The human ear may not be sensitive to distortion but it is sensitive to volume.

Having said that, some amps do sound different due to the “voicing” that the designers of those amps add to their product. Voicing is distortion and/or frequency-dependant amplitude variations that have been deliberately included in the amp’s design as a result of studies conducted on human hearing. Those studies indicate that humans prefer to hear a particular set of frequencies with particular amplitudes. This same distortion is what makes valve amps sound so good to lots of audiophiles.

On the other hand, speakers definitely sound very different to other speakers, so that is where you should focus your attention.

I would take Aussie Geoff’s advice and go for the 802D and the Rotel RB-1092. However, you should be aware that Rotel is generally regarded as a manufacturer that adds voicing to its products. That’s probably why they sound so good!

Let the flaming commence…

[snowball]

well for the moment my mind is on spending the $$ on the speakers,unless something radical changes it!!!

to Aussie Geoff :
Which amp in your opinion can drive the 802D's to their full potential?

to bigburner :that was very enlightning,thank you!!!!!

[sikoniko]

I say passively biamp a pair of nuforce ref9's on the 802d's. cost: around 4400 for the amps. minimally, get 1 pair now and add the second pair later. rotel will not do justice for the 802d's.

[Kobus]

rotel will not do justice for the 802d's.

I think saying it will not do justice is a bit harsh. We have heard to little about this amp to make statements like that. Unless you have listened to it.

I do agree that the Ref's have good reviews thus far and I might put my money on them. I just feel your statement is a bit harsh. You can maybe say that about the 1077.

Kobus

[style]

I buy Rotel and 803D.
SURE

[GregLett]

Rotel is an excellent starting point! Even a finishing point for some.

[snowball]

yeah,the rotels i think are propable candidates!

but.....those cam 400's look verrrry "interesting"!!!

*will not buy, will not buy, aaaah!!!* :P

[jim777]

Amplified with RB-1070? RC-1070 is the pre.

RB1070 and RC1070 combo

[GregLett]

yeah,the rotels i think are propable candidates!

but.....those cam 400's look verrrry "interesting"!!!

*will not buy, will not buy, aaaah!!!* :P

Yea the Cams are nice :heh:

[bigburner]

but.....those cam 400's look verrrry "interesting"!!!

But then you won't be able to afford the 802D's. You'll have to buy a pair of DM601 S3 speakers instead!

Are you able to audition the CA-M400 and the RB-1092 with the 802D at your friendly B&W dealer? If so, ask the dealer to switch from one amp to the other a few times without telling you which one is playing. Insist that the volume stays the same. Then report the results back to us. I may need to eat my words...

[snowball]

But then you won't be able to afford the 802D's. You'll have to buy a pair of DM601 S3 speakers instead!

Are you able to audition the CA-M400 and the RB-1092 with the 802D at your friendly B&W dealer? If so, ask the dealer to switch from one amp to the other a few times without telling you which one is playing. Insist that the volume stays the same. Then report the results back to us. I may need to eat my words...

i am not even sure that my dealer has classe products...

but since i dont think i could afford the monoblocks,and the 802's(what am i saying,if my prices are correct,i could not even afford the 804's) auditioning the 400's would be more of a small torture for me,since i would know that i could never have them... :cry:

[grit]

Odd. All of this talk, and I can't find if this is for music or HT. PERSONALLY, I don't think I would EVER consider pumping NEAR as much money into HT as I would into a music system. HT (to my ear) is usually easier to produce and is far less detailed.

So, if you're looking at HT, I'd consider 805's & the matching center & sub on Rotel equipment. If this is for music (or primarily music), I'd go with 803s's and Classe. If you feel you need to upgrade from 803s', you can do that after a year (as you pointed out).

I cant stress enough how important it is to consider how you intend to use the system. People typically want to assign a percentage, like 80 HT, 20 music. I always thought I was more of a movie guy myself. Then I bought a nice system (B&W 703's etc and Rotel 1068/1075). Wow! I started to sit down for as long as a movie would play just to listen to music.

If music is what is important to you, aim for 2 great loudspeakers and a great source player. Add centers, subs, surrounds all later. If HT is what is important to you, worry about 5 well-matched speakers and how you can effectively place them in your environment.

[snowball]

Odd. All of this talk, and I can't find if this is for music or HT. PERSONALLY, I don't think I would EVER consider pumping NEAR as much money into HT as I would into a music system. HT (to my ear) is usually easier to produce and is far less detailed.

So, if you're looking at HT, I'd consider 805's & the matching center & sub on Rotel equipment. If this is for music (or primarily music), I'd go with 803s's and Classe. If you feel you need to upgrade from 803s', you can do that after a year (as you pointed out).

I cant stress enough how important it is to consider how you intend to use the system. People typically want to assign a percentage, like 80 HT, 20 music. I always thought I was more of a movie guy myself. Then I bought a nice system (B&W 703's etc and Rotel 1068/1075). Wow! I started to sit down for as long as a movie would play just to listen to music.

If music is what is important to you, aim for 2 great loudspeakers and a great source player. Add centers, subs, surrounds all later. If HT is what is important to you, worry about 5 well-matched speakers and how you can effectively place them in your environment.

its 120% music,nothing else!!!! 2ch of course,and if i get the 802d's i dont think i will be needing a sub!!!

[GregLett]

its 120% music,nothing else!!!! 2ch of course,and if i get the 802d's i dont think i will be needing a sub!!!

I would say that

[sikoniko]

Even if you start out 90%+ music, the better the system, the more 2 channel you will listen to.

I think saying it will not do justice is a bit harsh. We have heard to little about this amp to make statements like that. Unless you have listened to it.

I don't care if rotel had a product that was better than mark levinson/bat/ayre, I still wouldn't buy from them ever again.

1. I don't respect companies that lie to me. They touted their products as "upgrade proof" and then the next year replaced my model (rsx1055).

2. I didn't respect the way they treated the people with the 1095's that had the hum.

3. I didn't like that my processor paused between switching codecs (which may or may not have been fixed, dunno - was very annoying).

4. and this one may be snobbish, but I feel as though I have outgrown them in my system(s). IMO, their products are suited for N805's and lower.

I have the ref9's with my N802's and they are 10x better then the rotel.

[jim777]

Even if you start out 90%+ music, the better the system, the more 2 channel you will listen to.

That is so true!!

and this one may be snobbish, but I feel as though I have outgrown them in my system(s). IMO, their products are suited for N805's and lower.

Suitable to the B&W's without FST. B&W's 703 "snobs" Rotel too

Sounded OK for 704's and 603s3's though.

[snowball]

i am sure that rotel is not adequate of the class that the b&w's offer,but unfortunately it all comes down to the price/quality ratio,and imo rotel quite delivers it.

and for the moment,i have read only 1 review for the 1091/92,so maybe they are compensating all their shortcomings in that particular model...maybe...

hmmm all that said,those classe monoblocks grow sexier by the day.... 8)

[grit]

Someone else posted this above - I believe in well-matched components (speakers/electronics). I've not demoed 802's on Rotel vs 803's on Classe (but I have herad 803's on Clasee). I think I'd consider my budget over the next year or two. If this is essentially the only investment you'll be making, I'd probably aim for 803d's, a 200 watt Classe amp, pre, and source. If you'll be upgrading, you may consider the 802's and Rotel's new 1092. Rotel will never make your B&W's sound BAD, it just wont show the best they can do. Thus, you may find 803'ds more pleasing with better electronics.

Oh, and I'm not a fan of subs for 2-ch, but this is dependent on your opinions and listening environment. It certainly is a spot to save $ that can easily be upgraded later on.