Upgrading to CAM-400 Amps

[dmccombs]

I am in the process of upgrading my L-C-R amps from CAM-350s to CAM-400s. The 400s aren't as tall as the 350s, but they are about 5" wider. Ouch...

Right now, I have the (3) 350s set on amp stands, on the floor in front of my Display. The width of my front area is only 13 ft, and the 350s barely fit since I also have the main audio rack, sub, and HTM2D on the same row.

So, I either need to get a 20" high TV stand, and put the 3 amps underneath it, or I need to by a vertical 3 shelf rack that can adequately support the weight of the 3 amps.

Do you have any suggestions as to which would be better?

Thanks,
Darrell

[dmccombs]

I checked around online, and saw the pictures of the Abbey Road setup. I see they used a vertical 3 rack setup. It looks great, and I was sold on the idea until I realized my speaker cables aren't long enough. I will have to put the amps on stands under the HDTV.

Can anyone give me feedback as to how hot these get? I see Classe recommends 6" of clearance above each amp? I know owners manauals sometimes exaggerate, and I have seen pictures where people are giving much less clearance. Do you have any real-world feedback?

Thanks,
Darrell

[wettou]

Can anyone give me feedback as to how hot these get? I see Classe recommends 6" of clearance above each amp? I know owners manauals sometimes exaggerate, and I have seen pictures where people are giving much less clearance. Do you have any real-world feedback.

Darrell,

They get warm, It depends if the front, side and back are open? I have about 4 inches but the front and back are wide open.

[dmccombs]

Darrell,

They get warm, It depends if the front, side and back are open? I have about 4 inches but the front and back are wide open.

Thanks for the reply Wettou.

I know the CAM-400s will work well with the B&W 802Ds I have, but you don't think they will rebel against my Denon Prepro, do you? :2guns:

Darrell

[RebelMan]

I know the CAM-400s will work well with the B&W 802Ds I have, but you don't think they will rebel against my Denon Prepro, do you? :2guns:

I might "rebel" against them. :rofl: (j/k) Seriously, they should work fine. The Delta Series amplifiers are fairly neutral and have high input impedance.

The CA-M400's are warm to the touch at idle but can get a little toasty under demand. Most of the heat you'll feel emanates from the heat sinks.

[wettou]

Thanks for the reply Wettou.I know the CAM-400s will work well with the B&W 802Ds I have, but you don't think they will rebel against my Denon Prepro, do you? :2guns: Darrell

Well let me know because I am considering the Denon as well I would prefer the Classé once they have the new Codec! Jan 2009 maybe !! :cry:

[dmccombs]

My current 350s are a very good match. From what I have read, the 400s should be a similar sound signature, but provide a little more definition. I am guessing they will be a great match too.

Darrell

[dmccombs]

My old amp stands are too small for the CAM-400s. What affordable solutions do you recommend?

I already have space set aside on the floor for the 3 amps, in places to reduce Interconnect and speaker cable lengths. So I am looking for individual stands or spikes, instead of a racked solution.

The largest stand my space will accomodate is 23"x18.5". Any inputs would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Darrell

[DM3000 Owner]

My old amp stands are too small for the CAM-400s. What affordable solutions do you recommend?

I already have space set aside on the floor for the 3 amps, in places to reduce Interconnect and speaker cable lengths. So I am looking for individual stands or spikes, instead of a racked solution.

The largest stand my space will accomodate is 23"x18.5". Any inputs would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Darrell

Darrell,

I saw the photos of your old stands. I can think of a few very inexpensive solutions. I looked up the size of the CAM 350s vs the 400's. The depth is almost identical and the 400's are 17.5 inches wide compared to 12.75 for the 350's

Get some wood from the Home Depot and cut out planks that are the right size for your new amps. Paint them black and countersink some screws into them to attach to your existing stands. It should be very seamless. They will only be 2 3/8" wider per side (overhang). I would round the front corners to match the contour of the new amp. It should look very slick.

In the alternative, your stands look like they are oak. You can have some new tops made and just replace the existing tops utilizing the bases and spikes.

Or, you can have new tops made from granite and have them attached to the existing stands. I have used Liquid Nails sucessfully on granite many times.

Good luck,

Chris

[dmccombs]

Darrell,

I saw the photos of your old stands. I can think of a few very inexpensive solutions. I looked up the size of the CAM 350s vs the 400's. The depth is almost identical and the 400's are 17.5 inches wide compared to 12.75 for the 350's

Get some wood from the Home Depot and cut out planks that are the right size for your new amps. Paint them black and countersink some screws into them to attach to your existing stands. It should be very seamless. They will only be 2 3/8" wider per side (overhang). I would round the front corners to match the contour of the new amp. It should look very slick.


In the alternative, your stands look like they are oak. You can have some new tops made and just replace the existing tops utilizing the bases and spikes.

Or, you can have new tops made from granite and have them attached to the existing stands. I have used Liquid Nails sucessfully on granite many times.

Good luck,

Chris

Chris,

Thanks for the suggestions, but am not very handy in the woodshop. All the suggestions are beyond my comfort level.

I think the extent of my DIY skills would be to attach some spikes to a pre-made platform.

Regards,
Darrell

[beden1]

Chris,

Thanks for the suggestions, but am not very handy in the woodshop. All the suggestions are beyond my comfort level.

I think the extent of my DIY skills would be to attach some spikes to a pre-made platform.

Regards,
Darrell

It's really easy to go to a tile/stone retailer that also makes (or can have made) custom sized granite. Just give them the measurements and they will make up the polished platforms for you. They can also tell you what glue to use. I had some made as bases for my sub woofers and it was a snap. Turn around was like one week. They are excellent platforms for amps or speakers, and they look great.

[DM3000 Owner]

It's really easy to go to a tile/stone retailer that also makes (or can have made) custom sized granite. Just give them the measurements and they will make up the polished platforms for you. They can also tell you what glue to use. I had some made as bases for my sub woofers and it was a snap. Turn around was like one week. They are excellent platforms for amps or speakers, and they look great.

I agree. I have a good friend that owns a granite shop. They can use scrap material and make some platforms. An employee may be able to do it as a side job.

Same goes for a wood shop. It would look really slick if the base follows the shape of the amps.

[RebelMan]

It's really easy to go to a tile/stone retailer that also makes (or can have made) custom sized granite. Just give them the measurements and they will make up the polished platforms for you. They can also tell you what glue to use. I had some made as bases for my sub woofers and it was a snap. Turn around was like one week. They are excellent platforms for amps or speakers, and they look great.

Granite has great damping properties for use as a platform but how would you spike it?

[beden1]

Granite has great damping properties for use as a platform but how would you spike it?

I used the Sound Anchor Super Spikes underneath the granite platforms/slabs - the ones with the adhesive backing. It works great under the subs. If I had thought of it beforehand, I probably would have gone the same direction under the speakers as well in my setup with the hardwood floors. This setup works great at virtually eliminating the vibrations throughout the room. I also think by lifting the subs (in my case), it served to tighten up the bass.

But in Darrell's case, I think it was a suggestion to try and convert his current amp platforms.

[DM3000 Owner]

He has some nice looking oak stands. Just glue the granite to the existing stands. The existing stands can be painted or stained black to match if it needs to match other stands.

Latex caulk is about the best method if you want to use a "glue" instead of the normal two part adhesive. Some installers install sinks using silicone sealant. Works great and really sticks. The problem is that if the sink ever needs to be replaced you will break the granite removing it. Latex caulk sticks well but the seal can be broken with some careful effort.

Granite is not really inert. The darker granite gets its color from iron. Absolute black will ring like metal if you tap a piece (that is not glued down). I just love the way that it looks. I have amp stands that I made out of steel and granite and have the parts to assemble a really nice stereo rack and LP/CD storage. Its on my list of things to do.

[dmccombs]

I had heard that if you used a granite platform with turntables, it would ring. So, it is similar with amp stands?

If so, is granite a good match for the CAM-400s, or should I lean towards Maple wood?

For the short term, I have two of the three 400s, on Oak CAM-350 stands. They fit, just barely. Would you expect the sound of Oak and Maple to be similar?

Darrell

[dmccombs]

On a different CAM-400 topic... I see there are firmware upgrades available for the CAM-400s. I am not using a Classe Prepro, so is there any reason to run the firmware updates?

I guess I am asking if the updates are purely to improved connections with the Classe Prepros (CANBus), or do they have any other fixes/improvements?

Thanks,
Darrell

[RebelMan]

All materials resonate but mass-loading effects of granite and marble are beneficial across a broad range of frequencies and that's why they are used in products like Harmonic Resolution Systems M3 Isolation Base and B&W's Signature Diamond speaker two name two. The quality of the material and it's surface area and volume will contribute more or less to the damping abilities. I notice that in many cases the material is decoupled to reduce the potential for ringing. With respect to the CA-M400 the Navcom LimbSaver feet should serve this purpose well.

[hifiguymi]

On a different CAM-400 topic... I see there are firmware upgrades available for the CAM-400s. I am not using a Classe Prepro, so is there any reason to run the firmware updates?

I guess I am asking if the updates are purely to improved connections with the Classe Prepros (CANBus), or do they have any other fixes/improvements?

Thanks,
Darrell

It's all CANBUS related. If you don't have a Classe preamp then it desn't need to be done.

Eric

[DM3000 Owner]

All materials resonate but mass-loading effects of granite and marble are beneficial across a broad range of frequencies and that's why they are used in products like Harmonic Resolution Systems M3 Isolation Base and B&W's Signature Diamond speaker two name two. The quality of the material and it's surface area and volume will contribute more or less to the damping abilities. I notice that in many cases the material is decoupled to reduce the potential for ringing. With respect to the CA-M400 the Navcom LimbSaver feet should serve this purpose well.

Yea, it is heavy. This is really splitting hairs. The black stuff is what really rings, but that is when it is not glued to anything. The lighter grantire doesn't really ring. If you like the look of granite, use it. Granite looks good, is expensive and sounds impressive. Plain old sand and rubber are much better isolators.

[dmccombs]

It's all CANBUS related. If you don't have a Classe preamp then it desn't need to be done.

Eric

Great, thanks for the info. I won't bother upgrading the CAM-400 firmware then, unless I get into the SSP-800.

[dmccombs]

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions on the stands so far.

It looks like if I buy spikes that just set under the amp or some Granite, the cost will be $200+. I would still need to get the Granite and some isolation material.

If I get spikes that go into the wood, I would have to use my feeble DIY skills. Modifying my current stands would also require DIY.

I think I will reuse the current stands on the Center and Rear amps, and buy something affordable (but decent) for the 2 fronts. I think this will provide the best affordable, good quality solution, that doesn't require DIY.

Thanks,
Darrell

[dmccombs]

Well, I have the 400s in place, and it is an adjustment. I really liked the 350s. The 400s have more clarity, and the 350s had a little more umph down low.

In my room, the 350s actually seem a little warmer, and thus more musical. Maybe I just need a little more time to adjust to the 400s.

Darrell

[wettou]

Maybe I just need a little more time to adjust to the 400s.Darrell

They need burn in time let talk after 100 hours

[dmccombs]

They need burn in time let talk after 100 hours

I got these used. They already have 100 hours.

[sikoniko]

Can we expect pictures by the end of the weekend?

[dmccombs]

Can we expect pictures by the end of the weekend?

I can post a pic, but the amps are somewhat hidden behind my Center Channel and the the sub. My room is more pleasing to the ear, than to the eyes. :W

Darrell

[wettou]

I got these used. They already have 100 hours.

Oh then may be there is some thing wrong or you are just accustomed to the 350 sound!

[dmccombs]

OK Sikoniko,

Here are a few pictures of my setup. Like I said, no pretty, but I do like the sound. :T

Darrell

[wettou]

OK Sikoniko,

Here are a few pictures of my setup. Like I said, no pretty, but I do like the sound. :T

Darrell

Looks like you have the Denon AVP how do you like it?

[dmccombs]

Looks like you have the Denon AVP how do you like it?

Link to previous Denon AVP comments.

Its still working great, and sounds terrific. :T

[RebelMan]

Nice pics Darrell. Thanks for sharing.

[dmccombs]

Oh then may be there is some thing wrong or you are just accustomed to the 350 sound!

I figured out the "problem". The person that I bought the amps from supplied to decent power cables. I already good power cables on my CAM-350s, so I used the cable he supplied with the CA-M400s, on my Prepro and Source instead.

Today, I was scratching my, head trying to figure out what changed in my setup beside the amp change. Then I remember the cable swap (that I assumed would be next to inaudible). Then I swapped back in the stock Denon cable on the Prepro and source, and snap, that was it.

Go Figure...

So, the CA-M400 audition really starts today. :E

Darrell

[wettou]

I figured out the "problem". The person that I bought the amps from supplied to decent power cables. Then I swapped back in the stock Denon cable on the Prepro and source, and snap, that was it. Go Figure.... :E Darrell

Enjoy, You are saying that the power cord was the problem! I have never been able to hear any difference between power cords!!

[dmccombs]

Enjoy, You are saying that the power cord was the problem! I have never been able to hear any difference between power cords!!

I know it sounds wacky. :huh:

It took me a few days to figure out that I changed those two cords when I put the amps in. Once I swapped the original power cords back on the AVP and Source, everything sounded as you would expect.

I never used to believe power cords could make an audible difference, especially on something that wasn't drawing big current like an amplifier.

I guess people need to test in their system, to see if they hear a change, and weather that change is significant or subtle, positive or negative.

[RebelMan]

Let the listening begin! :T

[dmccombs]

Well Rebleman, I have got to do some listening, and I am a happy camper. I put on the Kelly Sweet CD and melted away for a while. The CA-M400s are doing a great job with the rest of my music collection as well.

I still am looking at getting Stacey Kent. Do you have any other music suggestions? I want to give the CA-M400s a good workout. :T

Darrell

[ShadowZA]

...I still am looking at getting Stacey Kent. Do you have any other music suggestions? I want to give the CA-M400s a good workout. :T

Darrell

Just a quick note on Stacey Kent ... and this is for RebelMan too. Imho, this is her best recording to date: see post 919 from this thread: http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...=18807&page=27

This CD is a compilation taken from her previous albums. I have not been able to last 2 days without putting this one in the deck. :T

Apologies for hijacking the thread btw.

[dmccombs]

Apologies for hijacking the thread btw.

No problem... I am the OP, and I already hijacked it :E

Thanks for the Collection II tip. I have looked for this locally, without luck. I guess I will have to order it. I did get to listen to it via Rhapsody, and even the 128k version sounds pretty good. I am guessing the SQ of the CD is incredible.

Darrell

[wettou]

Did any of you tried the new Blu ray Audio music only

[dmccombs]

Did any of you tried the new Blu ray Audio music only

I don't have BluRay Only-Audio disks, but I do have a few Bluray concerts that have the 96/24 5.1 sound. It sounds just like 5.1 DVD-Audio or SACD.

Darrell

[wettou]

I don't have BluRay Only-Audio disks, but I do have a few Bluray concerts that have the 96/24 5.1 sound. It sounds just like 5.1 DVD-Audio or SACD.Darrell

I heard this is outstanding







Tchaikovsky - Piano Concertos Nos. 1&3 - Acoustic Reality Experience [Blu-ray]

[beden1]

Well Rebleman, I have got to do some listening, and I am a happy camper. I put on the Kelly Sweet CD and melted away for a while. The CA-M400s are doing a great job with the rest of my music collection as well.

I still am looking at getting Stacey Kent. Do you have any other music suggestions? I want to give the CA-M400s a good workout. :T

Darrell

I just picked up a music video that is really excellent in DTS 5.1 - Steely Dan's, two against nature. It was published in 2000. I got it at Costco for under $10. I love Steely Dan's kind of swing jazzy blues. It was performed/recorded at a small cozy like theater in NYC (forgot the theater's name). Really excellent collection that will bring out the best in your system.

[Glen B]

It was performed/recorded at a small cozy like theater in NYC (forgot the theater's name). Really excellent collection that will bring out the best in your system.

The recording venue was the Sony Music Stages. I have both the DVD and CD of Two Against Nature; its one of my favorites and an excellent recommendation. :T Another great music video and favorite is Eric Clapton Live in Hyde Park.

[beden1]

The recording venue was the Sony Music Stages. I have both the DVD and CD of Two Against Nature; its one of my favorites and an excellent recommendation. :T Another great music video and favorite is Eric Clapton Live in Hyde Park.

Thanks Glen, I will be picking it up today!