Toshiba HD DVD now available at BB

[LEVESQUE]

One thing I should comment on- the sound quality.

I'm using the HDMI 1.1 connection on my Anthem D2 to pass the new HD audio formats in PCM and can confirm that the sound is spectacular.

[Chris D]

Levesque, if you're doing that, it's not really using the high-res audio formats, right?

I'm not aware of any receivers or processors yet that can receive and decode the new high-res audio via a digital connection.

[Shane Martin]

Chris,
In his case the decoder is in his dvd player still. The player converts to PCM and sends it over via HDMI 1.1.

[LEVESQUE]

Levesque, if you're doing that, it's not really using the high-res audio formats, right?
I'm not aware of any receivers or processors yet that can receive and decode the new high-res audio via a digital connection.

The Anthem D2 is the only pre/pro on the market right now that can pass the new high-res audio formats over HDMI 1.1. :T

The Toshiba HD-DVD player is doing the decoding and sending PCM out. The Anthem D2 can pass up to 8 channels of 96/24 or 2 channels of 192/24 over HDMI 1.1 (PCM). So it,s using the new high-res formats fully.

There is alot of receivers tough that can also do it over HDMI 1.1.

Also, the scaler of the D2 can go up to 1080p60 (not in the HDMI 1.1 specs, but Anthem did it). The D2 is way ahead of all the other pre/pro manufacturers right now with a full-fledged and integrated Gennum VXP scaler (just like the new Crystalio II). The were the first pre/pro company fully ready for those new HD players (for video AND audio). :T

Not your run-of-the-mill video swticher. It's one of the best scaler on the market right now, even better then alot of true dedicated external scalers. Go read Kris Deering shout-out and evaluation of the D2 at Secrets. Impressive. Kris was really impressed. A pre/pro outperforming almost all the dedicated external video scalers out there on the market. You don't see that often...

Here's Kris Deering conclusion at Secrets:

"The Anthem Statement D2 represents a completely new approach to home theater processors, including first rate video processing as well as the standard audio processing. Normally, performance like this is reserved for flagship standalone video processors, and very few of those can match the performance of the VXP processing in the D2. The high definition video de-interlacing is superb and really sets this component apart from the majority of the processors out there. The fact that it is already fully capable of supporting the new high definition formats makes it a secure investment at a time when consumers are worried about making an investment in something they might have to replace later due to changing technology."

[pikers]

I'm sure everyone knows this, however, I'll risk repeating that the Tosh is limited to 720P/1080i, while Blu Ray will do 1080P.

Not that Sony fanboys could tell me which was which without prior knowledge. :T

[pikers]

Actually, a score of 84 on their SD tests is pretty high.

What they dont' like are usage factors, like the boot up time, responsiveness, remote, etc. They haven't evaluated it for HD-DVD, other than to say it looks great. Because of the usage factors, they don't recommend it. The review is a bit vague, and has rasied some hackles of early adopters who find the image unmatched by any other consumer display source.

Yep, the only people that raise questions about Kris' findings are the people that already own one. :lol:

I think what those early adopters are not understanding is that, while we all appreciate those people moving the technology forward, they must know that the buggy stuff is what they are buying. I don't see why those people take umbrage with honest reviews from people without a horse in the race like Mr. Deering. On AVS, this man has had his professional reputation questioned (not that that's surprising).

[Chris D]

So as I understand the issue with sending the new high-res audio formats via PCM, what you're conceptually doing is using the disc player's decoder abilities, but instead of passing the decoded signal via the multichannel analog outputs, you're using the digital realm over HDMI?

You know, I didn't think about that before. I guess that's a way to do high-res audio, keep it all digital, but yet not have to add the decoding ability to the processor. Is there any sound degradation doing it this way, instead of having the processor doing the decoding?

[David Meek]

FWIW, I just saw an announcement on Google news that Sony's moving the Blu-Ray release date from May 23rd to June 20th. The media is ready, but the players aren't.

[Hdale85]

Hmm sounds kind of like the PS3. Moved back to like November now which is BS but oh well.

[LEVESQUE]

but instead of passing the decoded signal via the multichannel analog outputs, you're using the digital ream over HDMI?

Yes.

Is there any sound degradation doing it this way, instead of having the processor doing the decoding?

Not at all, and it's in reality the opposite situation. When using the multi-ch analog inputs, you need to do some D/A then A/D conversion, and this can result in sound degradation. HDMI is the purest link for the new HD high-rez formats. Using the multi-ch analog input is simply a band-aid solution until manufacturers can fallow with HDMI...

[gostan]

Alain,

The D2 gives you the capability to take advantage of the DD+ soundtracks over HDMI from the Toshiba player. Does the DD+ soundtrack sound better or different than the DD or DTS soundtrack?

[KeithM]

What kind of stock does BB have? Is it a pretty long list to get one or can you go in the first day the shipment is on shelves and get one? My brother and I are thinking of putting some money on and selling one on ebay. They sell for around $650 or more right now.

[Chris D]

I went into BB last night here in the Tacoma area of WA, and they had one on display with 5 boxed units on the shelf. It was hooked up to a 1080p capable display, playing a HD-DVD demo disc. I've got to say, I was NOT impressed with the picture quality. I don't know if it was the source disk, or what, but it looked no better than SD-DVD.

Volume was too low (and not a good environment, anyway) to evaluate the sound quality.

[dyazdani]

I haven't been to impressed with anything at BB, I'm not sure that they have a lot of attention to detail when setting up their stock.

I remember the day I saw my own TV there. They had a golf tournament on and I could see 3 flags: red, blue, and a greenish/yellow one :lol:

[peterS]

I went into BB last night here in the Tacoma area of WA, and they had one on display with 5 boxed units on the shelf. It was hooked up to a 1080p capable display, playing a HD-DVD demo disc. I've got to say, I was NOT impressed with the picture quality. I don't know if it was the source disk, or what, but it looked no better than SD-DVD.

Volume was too low (and not a good environment, anyway) to evaluate the sound quality.

they must have it set up wrong.... some of the westinghouse's have had issues w/ hdmi input
our display looks amaizing

[peterS]

I haven't been to impressed with anything at BB, I'm not sure that they have a lot of attention to detail when setting up their stock.

I remember the day I saw my own TV there. They had a golf tournament on and I could see 3 flags: red, blue, and a greenish/yellow one :lol:

manufactures want it set to there out of box settings

only twice have i changed the settings (out of necessity) on a jvc lcd and the new panasonic plasmas

most customers appreciate that we dont tune them, as they would view it as deceitful :crazy:

[peterS]

What kind of stock does BB have? Is it a pretty long list to get one or can you go in the first day the shipment is on shelves and get one? My brother and I are thinking of putting some money on and selling one on ebay. They sell for around $650 or more right now.

i dont see them that high on ebay anymore at least
sunday BB sold a new round of them (three at my store)
fyi we cannot order or reserve them

[Drewbert]

I went into BB last night here in the Tacoma area of WA, and they had one on display with 5 boxed units on the shelf. It was hooked up to a 1080p capable display, playing a HD-DVD demo disc. I've got to say, I was NOT impressed with the picture quality. I don't know if it was the source disk, or what, but it looked no better than SD-DVD.

Volume was too low (and not a good environment, anyway) to evaluate the sound quality.

If it was on that 42 westinghouse LCD then yeah it looks horrible...
We moved ours to the 50 panasonic plasma... it looks really good. and some people that work there take the time to make stuff look right... others do not.

[KeithM]

i dont see them that high on ebay anymore at least
sunday BB sold a new round of them (three at my store)
fyi we cannot order or reserve them

At least the "buy it now stuff" is still pretty high. Either way, you could still but one, sell it, buy another, sell it, until you get a free one, providing you can find them in stock at 500 bucks each.

[dyazdani]

manufactures want it set to there out of box settings

only twice have i changed the settings (out of necessity) on a jvc lcd and the new panasonic plasmas

most customers appreciate that we dont tune them, as they would view it as deceitful :crazy:

They at least ought to do convergence or have a sales rep do it. I wouldn't want my TV to look like crap on display if I were a manufacturer.

[peterS]

They at least ought to do convergence or have a sales rep do it. I wouldn't want my TV to look like crap on display if I were a manufacturer.

our store doesnt sell crt's and when we did the convergence was done of course
BB is based out of minneapolis so it is plausable that some stores are just not held to the same standard

[Hdale85]

They dont care what it looks like they just want it to be brighter and more eye catching the the other displays.

[peterS]

At least the "buy it now stuff" is still pretty high. Either way, you could still but one, sell it, buy another, sell it, until you get a free one, providing you can find them in stock at 500 bucks each.

they are readily available at BB
i think prior to last sunday it would have been worth while
the auctions dont seem to be doing much over retail - paypal and listing fees
not worth my effort.... wish i would have thought of this with the first releases :M

[peterS]

They dont care what it looks like they just want it to be brighter and more eye catching the the other displays.

if you are refering to manufacturers id agree
ive seen the samsung rep do it on tvs that we tamed down a bit :roll:

[aud19]

I went and saw HD-DVD last night and wasn't overly impressed... It looked better, quite good even, it just wasn't as BIG of a difference as I was hoping for.

Granted they had it running in to a 42" Toshiba plasma. I'm not the biggest plasma fan to begin with and Toshiba certainly doesn't make the best example of the tech IMO, not to mention the inherently lower native res of (particularly 42") plasmas.... certainly didn't help I'm sure. Basically it looked better than DVD, but not that much better and HD via cable at my house on my CRT looks better than it did via HD-DVD on that plasma (from what I could tell anyway... Obviously not having them side by side is not exactly the best comparison). Though that's more the displays fault I'd guess than the source. They had a nice 60" SXRD with an HD feed right beside I would have loved to have seen the Toshiba hooked up to, but can you imagine if their Sony rep came in?!?! :uhoh: :thud: :rofl: BTW seeing it again last night, I still LOVE those SXRD sets, so far that's the only digital display I've seen that has a hope in hell of ever replacing my CRT :T

Regardless, not seeing a night and day difference has made me feel a whole lot more comfortable about waiting it out :T However, if I'm not alone in my interpretation, (particularly if it's going to be demonstrated on relatively low res plasmas :roll: ) this may note bode well for selling HD movies of any format to J6P and hence not bode well for HD-DVD/BD

I'd also recommend anyone thinking of buying one to hook it up to a set of similar res to what you own in store before commiting to a purchase. I personally don't think it would be worth the upgrade and extra cost of the software if you're only watching on a 42" 1024x768 (or less 8O ) plasma.

[peterS]

we have it hooked up to our pioneer.... it is unbelievable! really worth seeing
i have seen it on the panasonic too and was still impressed
i am surprised you didnt like the looks on the toshiba as i cant imagine it is much different than the panasonic
maybe you are just used to a very good upconvert player ?
the fact that you claim it doesnt even look as good as cable hd makes me think something is wrong in their setup... i am the biggest pessimist around and am in love w/ it 8O

[aud19]

I didn't say I didn't like it, I did like it. I just wasn't as "blown away" as I was hoping to be.... As I said I think the Toshiba plasma had more than a little to do with that too

[gostan]

How was it set up? There have been some serious inconsistencies with set-ups at various BB stores. Some stores are not even using HDMi or Component connections. And the Tosh needs to be set at 1080i. If it is set at 720P the PQ will not overwhelm you at all. It is suggested that the resolution of the player be set at the resolution of the disc, but even Toshiba now says to simply set the player at 1080i.

I am quite happy with the PQ of my Toshiba HD-XA1. It is running into a three year old 720P Sony GW 50" RPLCD via an Anthem Statement D2.

The lack of available content and not the PQ is the real issue. I am enjoying watching some older flicks such as Unforgiven, Full Metal Jacket and Apollo 13, etc. with renewed vigor. But, until the new movies are released in HD, this will not really catch on with the masses.

And, by the way, the Toshiba works pretty well as an upconverter of SD to 720P or 1080i. This ability was pretty unexpected.

You are correct, that the SXRD's are pretty sweet. But I understand that there have been numerous set failures. Hopefully the new 2007 models with real 1080P will overcome these issues. I wish that they would cut out the speakers and slim the whole chassis down. After all, who uses the monitor speakers anyhow.

[aud19]

It was connected via HDMI, not sure about the 720p/1080i though. I'm sure you're quite happy with the PQ, as I said it did look good, better than SD-DVD. If someone handed me a free players and offered me all the available software in the first year for free, I'd happily take them! I just wasn't blown away is all. I'm not saying it looked bad it just didn't look THAT good IMO that I'd lose sleep over waiting it out. Now if they were demonstrating it on the 60" SXRD or even better a 100"+ 1080p FP system in a light controlled and perfectly calibrated theatre...I might be whistling a different tune :lol:

[peterS]

How was it set up? There have been some serious inconsistencies with set-ups at various BB stores. Some stores are not even using HDMi or Component connections. And the Tosh needs to be set at 1080i. If it is set at 720P the PQ will not overwhelm you at all. It is suggested that the resolution of the player be set at the resolution of the disc, but even Toshiba now says to simply set the player at 1080i.

I am quite happy with the PQ of my Toshiba HD-XA1. It is running into a three year old 720P Sony GW 50" RPLCD via an Anthem Statement D2.

The lack of available content and not the PQ is the real issue. I am enjoying watching some older flicks such as Unforgiven, Full Metal Jacket and Apollo 13, etc. with renewed vigor. But, until the new movies are released in HD, this will not really catch on with the masses.

And, by the way, the Toshiba works pretty well as an upconverter of SD to 720P or 1080i. This ability was pretty unexpected.

You are correct, that the SXRD's are pretty sweet. But I understand that there have been numerous set failures. Hopefully the new 2007 models with real 1080P will overcome these issues. I wish that they would cut out the speakers and slim the whole chassis down. After all, who uses the monitor speakers anyhow.

why would 1080i look better on a 720p set?
as for the sxrd i havent heard of one failure... it is actualy the only rearprojection i have never seen come back

[peterS]

It was connected via HDMI, not sure about the 720p/1080i though. I'm sure you're quite happy with the PQ, as I said it did look good, better than SD-DVD. If someone handed me a free players and offered me all the available software in the first year for free, I'd happily take them! I just wasn't blown away is all. I'm not saying it looked bad it just didn't look THAT good IMO that I'd lose sleep over waiting it out. Now if they were demonstrating it on the 60" SXRD or even better a 100"+ 1080p FP system in a light controlled and perfectly calibrated theatre...I might be whistling a different tune :lol:

i agree its the nicest rear projection by far and could utilize further calibration to hopefully rectify some its quirks (look at one with a white screen 8O )
i do have to say i have seen it on a 1080p harddrive and was impresed but equaly so by the 720p hdmi on the pioneer and panasonic
i dont feel the difference in these screen sizes are that drastic between 1080p and 720p as some make it out to be (generaly the people who havent seen it) also i think the performance advantages of plasma out weigh the added resolution of the sxrd

resolution is only part of the overall visual impression
just watched history of violence on a sony tube (480I) that i did some color setings and switched to component cables and it looked great too

the point i am making is if one doesnt see the merit in 480i to 720p one will be sorely dissapointed with the difference between 720p and 1080p (assuming all other aspects of PQ are preserved which i dont think will be in first gen models)


regardless
it is great to finaly be able to see what these screens are capable of with out the mpeg artifacts and bitrate issues

[Kevin D]

why would 1080i look better on a 720p set?
as for the sxrd i havent heard of one failure... it is actualy the only rearprojection i have never seen come back

Forgot where I read it, but if the disc is encoded in 1080p (all of them now) and you set the output to 1080i, it just de-interlaces it. If you set the player to 720p, it converts the 1080p to 540p and then scales it to 720p. So if the player is set to 720p, the best you will get is a scaled slightly better then DVD picture.

What I don't get is, until true 1080p sets and and players capable of 1080p come out, what's the big deal? It's just HD, I watch HD movies all the time.. These are just on a disc.

Kevin D.

[peterS]

Forgot where I read it, but if the disc is encoded in 1080p (all of them now) and you set the output to 1080i, it just de-interlaces it. If you set the player to 720p, it converts the 1080p to 540p and then scales it to 720p. So if the player is set to 720p, the best you will get is a scaled slightly better then DVD picture.

What I don't get is, until true 1080p sets and and players capable of 1080p come out, what's the big deal? It's just HD, I watch HD movies all the time.. These are just on a disc.

Kevin D.

ok i see.... ill play around with it :T

if you are refering to HD movies on satelite or cable i can tell you the disks do look better

my guess would be all the mess the signal goes through before it is displayed on the screen via cable or satelite

my problem with 1080p is that i expect regular broadcast hd to look bad on these sets, similar to how horrible SD looks on 720P sets

also, i am not advocating buying an hd-dvd player at all
our store is on our second player and they take FOR EVER to load
gread audio and video is all

[ThomasW]

It's just HD, I watch HD movies all the time

As Peter said there's a significant difference between the compressed HD from cable or satellite and the PQ on a HD-DVD

our store is on our second player and they take FOR EVER to load
gread audio and video is all

Mine loads at a speed similar to my HTPC, and I bet there's a reason for that...:wink:

[peterS]

As Peter said there's a significant difference between the compressed HD from cable or satellite and the PQ on a HD-DVD
Mine loads at a speed similar to my HTPC, and I bet there's a reason for that...:wink:

they have removable ram inside

[ThomasW]

they have removable ram inside

Yep along with a Pentium 4 and a Linux operating system. Hence the comment in my previous post

[LEVESQUE]

Now if they were demonstrating it on a 100"+ 1080p FP system in a light controlled and perfectly calibrated theatre...I might be whistling a different tune :lol:

That's exactly the conditions I have with my Toshiba HD-A1... plus a Gennum scaler performing true 1080i inverse telecine to 1080p (no "Bob" here... the real thing). :B

PQ is unbelievable, and a real "night-and-day" difference in my case. My Sony Ruby and my HT are fully tweaked, and the PQ is jaw-dropping at 1080p.

[aud19]

That's exactly the conditions I have with my Toshiba HD-A1... plus a Gennum scaler performing true 1080i inverse telecine to 1080p (no "Bob" here... the real thing). :B

PQ is unbelievable, and a real "night-and-day" difference in my case. My Sony Ruby and my HT are fully tweaked, and the PQ is jaw-dropping at 1080p.

That's all I'm saying. On a large enough and high enough resolution screen the bennefits of HD-DVD will be more apparent and worthwile. IMO on a 37"-42", 1024 x 768 plasma (which I don't care for to begin with) there's just not enough of an improvement over SD-DVD from what I saw. An improvement, yes but not a large enough one to buy another new source and more expensive software.

[JonMarsh]

The unfortunate thing is that most "intermediate" displays such as a 1024X768 plasma, due to scaling errors, don't even deliver full DVD luminance bandwidth. I'd expect the color (chroma) bandwidth to still be markedly better than average DVDs, but the effect might be more like stepping up to a really good Superbit DVD than true HD.

Display limitations were discussed a lot for some reason in the early days of HD, with 7" RPTVs being the most common units, but not so much lately, where scaling for MOR digitals may actually be more of a resolution impediment.

Note, 1080i from a Toshiba player is quite impressive even on a 72-80" FPTV setup, and not at all to be confused with DVD....

~Jon

[ThomasW]

For those early adopters here's a link to the first firmware update.

http://www.savefile.com/files.php?fid=7678296

[comeup]

how much does it cost,

[Chris D]

A firmware update already, huh? What's it been on the market for... all of 2 weeks?

[Brandon B]

The unfortunate thing is that most "intermediate" displays such as a 1024X768 plasma, due to scaling errors, don't even deliver full DVD luminance bandwidth. I'd expect the color (chroma) bandwidth to still be markedly better than average DVDs, but the effect might be more like stepping up to a really good Superbit DVD than true HD.

I don't quite agree. The higher capacity allows such higher bit rates that at the very least you get rid of things like macroblocking and other compression artifacts.

So, yeah, you aren't seeing anything like the full benefit of of HD, but on the same system, it will still look markedly better than even a superbit DVD. Now if you were to say the HD would look no better on that display than DVD-style NTSC at higher bit rates (that you don't find on commercial DVDs, say 10-15Mbs), I would agree with that. Even the best superbit DVDs I have seen would look markedly better from a bit rate doubling.

BB

[ThomasW]

A firmware update already, huh? What's it been on the market for... all of 2 weeks?

April 14th. Time flies when you start getting old .... :B

[Chris D]

Yes, I suppose that's true.

I was at BB tonight using a $5 reward certificate on Austin Powers Goldmember, on sale for $4.99. I decided to give HD-DVD another look, so I stopped at the display. Once again, could not evaluate SQ at all. The Toshiba was hooked up to a 1080p capable 42" Westinghouse plasma, so I tried to evaluate PQ as best as I could. Getting up closer than a typical viewing distance, I *COULD* tell general detail difference from an upconverting DVD player. The material was an HD-DVD demo disc, with lots of longer movie clips from Batman Forever and many others that I can't recall right now.

So as I watched the movie clips, I found myself drawn in and really just watching the movies, not hit with the detail sharpness. This could be construed as a tribute to the technology, that it made me enjoy the movie, not focus on the specs. However, knowing myself, and that I was there only for the sole purpose of evaluating the technology, the end result really seemed to be that I was not blown away.

Where the resolution really shined was two things--first, created graphics screens, like the Universal intro logo before the Batman Forever clip. Second, not really the recorded movies themselves, but the HD digitally filmed material the disc showed recorded specifically to show off high-def. In general, I've found this to be true with HD material. Watching the HD channels on DirecTV, the movies and such look good, but the stuff that really blows me away are the true HD-filmed material like the "Over Alaska" shows of large landscape scenes, and the sports events.

On the HD-DVD setup, I WAS very impressed with the vibrant colors. HD really does colors well.

Bottom line for me, YES, this is technology that I'm excited to use and I will be getting. However, not being overwhelmed by the results, I'm not going to be dealing with the baggage of this initial format war, and tech quirks/limitations of first-generation equipment.