The Showdown: Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD

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  • saurabh
    Senior Member
    • Feb 2005
    • 329

    The Showdown: Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD

    March/April 2005

    By Michael Grebb



    Alan Parsons wishes it wasn't so. But like it or not, the senior vice president of Pioneer's industrial solutions business group has become a wary foot soldier in the battle over the future of the DVD format. As music blares from a band playing at a nearby exhibit at the 2005 International CES, Parsons sits at a small table in a meeting room contemplating how the next couple of years might play out. He remains relatively reserved, trying not to let his passion for the next-generation Blu-Ray Disc format devolve into vitriol against rival format HD-DVD. "I don't like the rock throwing," he insists. "I just want to excite consumers."

    That may be true, but Parsons still finds it hard to resist getting in a few digs on the HD-DVD rival, which at about 15 gigabytes per layer has roughly 40 percent less storage capacity than the Blu-Ray format. "They might end up with something ho-hum," he says. "They're saying that [their capacity] is good, but people used to think that five gigs was good enough." Parsons shrugs his shoulders a bit, wearing a look of calm but certain exasperation. "Why would we limit ourselves to a lower capacity?" he asks.

    To be sure, Parsons is among several CE manufacturers backing the Blu-Ray format, which they claim is superior to HD-DVD. But the HD-DVD format has its own backers, who while fewer in numbers, are equally adamant that their format will win out because of its lower transition and manufacturing costs—as well as other technical benefits and its expected quicker time to market. Indeed, either format is a vast improvement over the current DVD design, which maxes out at about 4.7 gigabytes. Even at standard-definition quality, that's barely enough space for a two-hour movie and a few hours of special features. And with that much space, forget about high-definition TV.

    VHS vs. Beta all over Again?

    Both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD discs enable HDTV reproduction because of their massive storage capacities. Using dual-layer techniques, HD-DVD can store as much as 30 gigabytes of data while a Blu-Ray disc can pack in a whopping 50 gigabytes. In the lab, techies already are working on several-layered discs that could allow more than 100 gigabytes of storage on one disc. That's enough for several HDTV movies, special features and compelling interactive content. Or a content provider could put more than 100 hours of standard-definition quality programming on one DVD. All 180 episodes of Seinfeld on one disc, anyone?


    The benefits for backward compatibility are clear: new players will be able to handle both old and new DVD formats in the same machine (outfitted with both red- and blue-laser diodes)—a major consumer benefit that manufacturers hope will drive unit sales.



    Blu-Ray and HD-DVD both use blue lasers, which operate at lower wavelengths (405 nanometers) than current red lasers (650 nanometers). That microscopic difference goes a long way. Longer wavelengths suffer more diffraction, which limits their ability to focus tightly on a surface. But a blue laser's shorter wavelength allows it to read and write data over a much tighter surface area, which in turn allows storage of far more data on a disc that's roughly the same diameter of current DVDs. The benefits for backward compatibility are clear: New players will be able to handle both old and new DVD formats in the same machine (outfitted with both red- and blue-laser diodes)—a major consumer benefit that manufacturers hope will drive unit sales.

    But while consumers won't have to worry about obsolescence when it comes to their old DVD collections, the format war brewing between new Blu-Ray and HD-DVD discs does present an age-old problem that evokes the VHS vs. Beta fiasco of the 1980s. The HD-DVD format—like the VHS format that won out over Beta—could become far more widely available to consumers sooner and at a lower price (at least initially) than Blu-Ray discs. That's because the HD-DVD format utilizes manufacturing techniques very similar to those used for the current generation of DVDs. Translation: Third-party duplication houses won't have to retool their factories significantly to make HD-DVDs a reality. That means that HD-DVD discs likely will be the first to market by at least several months, probably by the end of 2005.

    On the other hand, Blu-Ray discs require an entirely new manufacturing process with transition costs borne largely by duplicators (unless Blu-Ray backers devise a subsidy system. That, along with other issues, is expected to delay the introduction of Blu-Ray discs until sometime in 2006, which could hand a major advantage to the HD-DVD format. (add hard return here) "In this kind of battle, the guy who is out there first and cheaper is going to be the winner," says Fariborz Ghadar, director for the Center for Global Business Studies at Penn State University. "The more expensive and later one is going to be the loser." (The Blu-Ray camp contends that it will bring manufacturing costs nearly in line with HD-DVD during the next year. Parsons says that HD-DVD's cost advantage will amount to only "pennies" per disc over the Blu-Ray format). (add hard return here as well) "Unlike Blu-Ray discs, HD-DVD discs can be manufactured with similar equipment in the same plants that make current DVDs," said Jodi Sally, vice president of marketing for Toshiba America Consumer Products digital audio video products.

    Duking It Out

    Still, the nature of the next-generation rollout itself may force consumers to take sides early. Because of the vastly different physical attributes of Blu-Ray and HD-DVD discs, it's cost-prohibitive for manufacturers to produce next-generation players that can handle both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD formats in one machine. "You would need two pickup heads, and it would be very expensive," explains Stephen Balogh, business development manager at Intel's corporate technology group. So manufacturers have lined up on opposite sides of the fence, ready to produce players that only work with one or the other format. That could spell consumer confusion as buyers fear picking the wrong one and ending up with an obsolete player and content library.

    Each side wants to convince consumers that they should avoid the other side's format. HD-DVD backers are planning a "you want it, and we're here now" marketing strategy, whereas the Blu-Ray camp largely plans to adopt a "we won't be first, but we'll be better" campaign designed to warn consumers away from HD-DVD.

    So what's the breakdown of forces on each side? On the Blu-Ray side is a large group of CE manufacturers, including Dell, Hewlett Packard, Hitachi, LG Electronics, Mitsubishi Electric, Panasonic (Matsushita Electric), Pioneer, Royal Philips Electronics, Samsung Electronics, Sharp, Sony, TDK and Thomson. Some content providers also are onboard. In addition to obvious backing from Sony-affiliated movie studios Sony Pictures Entertainment and Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer, the Walt Disney Company and its home-video division Buena Vista Entertainment offered its non-exclusive endorsement of Blu-Ray in December. In addition, video gaming powerhouse Electronic Arts, along with Vivendi Universal Games, both came out for Blu-Ray at the 2005 International CES in January.

    Most gaming companies have yet to pick sides, although Blu-Ray's larger storage capacity may win some of them over. "If you show Blu-Ray to a game manufacturer and say you can have an extra 20 gigabytes of storage, it's a drop-dead deal," says Blu-Ray backer Richard Doherty, managing director for Blu-Ray and professional AV at Panasonic Hollywood Labs. Of course, most PC-based games haven't even moved up to the current generation of DVDs from CDs, so it's unclear whether most gaming companies will utilize high-definition DVD formats for some time.

    The main backer of the HD-DVD format is Toshiba, which by itself has more market dominance than several CE backers on the Blu-Ray side combined, along with smaller players NEC and Sanyo. Toshiba plans to launch its first HD-DVD players in late 2005. In December, even Thomson—which is actually a Blu-Ray disc backer—announced that it also would sell HD-DVD players by late 2005. And an impressive list of entertainment content companies has thrown their weight behind HD-DVD, including Paramount, Universal Studios and Warner Bros. (along with Time Warner-owned New Line Cinema). All of these studios have already announced a significant amount of titles on HD-DVD to be available at the time HD-DVD players are introduced.

    Toshiba is dedicated to the HD-DVD format and executives staunchly believe they will win the marketing battle for consumers even before Blu-Ray gets its format off the ground in 2006. "The key part of this is going to be driven by content," says Maciek Brzeski, vice president of marketing in Toshiba's storage device division.

    He says consumers won't care whether the disc has 30 gigabytes or 50 gigabytes of capacity—only that the content they want is ready and available at a good price. Brzeski questions the Blu-Ray camp's ability to jazz consumers about a format that he says offers little more than a few extra gigabytes of storage. "They're going to be marketing technology, and we're going to be marketing products," he says. "It's hard to sell technology to consumers."

    "Our rich heritage in the development of DVD technology means that we are well equipped for the market transition from DVD to HD-DVD," added Sally, who also serves as Vice-President for the Digital Entertainment Group. "With proven backwards compatibility and real software titles available at launch, we are certain that we can deliver the very best solution in HD-DVD technology for both consumers as well as the content providers."

    In December, Toshiba and other HD-DVD backers formed the HD-DVD Promotion Group to promote the format, and to ensure early product launches and subsequent market penetration.

    Other pros and cons seem to bleed together as both formats offer similar features. For example, while HD-DVD touts the ability to create discs with red-laser standard DVD format on one side and blue-laser HD-DVD standard on the other, a Blu-Ray Disc Association spokeswoman points out that JVC announced in December a disc that allows both standard DVD and Blu-Ray content on a single side of the disc. The Blu-Ray camp has argued that single-sided discs are more consumer friendly.

    The Pricing Strategy

    In the vital area of picture quality, both formats also have a difficult time differentiating between one another. "Either format can produce a very good image," says Richard Dean, director of technical business development at THX Inc. "To me, it boils down to the price of the equipment and the availability of content."

    Dean, who has helped master the DVD releases of the Star Wars trilogy and other blockbuster movies, says that consumers won't notice any real quality difference between the formats. But he says HD-DVD may end up with an advantage if it can under price Blu-Ray discs and players. "I think that's going to play a very large role." As for Blu-Ray's greater storage capacity, "more space is always an advantage," Dean says, "but the question is how much more space is really needed." Notes Parsons: "If you start doing HD bonus features, it will suck up capacity very quickly."

    Intel executives, who first got involved in the working groups for next-generation DVD formats to help avoid a format war, already are bracing for an era of consumer confusion as a Blu-Ray-vs.-HD-DVD scenario takes shape. "We didn't want two formats coming out," says Balogh. "Now we have an even standoff, so neither side wants to compromise whatsoever." Making matters worse, he says, the entertainment studios also are split between Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, although more big studios have backed HD-DVD at this point.

    "The studios will be the kingmakers here," he says. Ultimately, consumers may struggle to figure out what kind of players and media to purchase during the next couple of years. "The most important benefit to the consumer is that the HD-DVD players that we'll be introducing to the market this year will be fully backward compatible with the current DVDs that are already in consumers' homes. With the Blu-Ray formats' backward compatibility isn't so simple," adds Sally.

    Still, many are wary. "It would be best if we went to market without two formats," says Panasonic's Doherty. "We're very disappointed that we're in a format war." As the battle heats up in 2005 and well into 2006, consumers will decide which format will succeed.


    This article has been adapted from VISION -- a bi-monthly magazine of the Consumer Electronics Association
    Need is the mother of all Inventions.....I am needy
  • Chris D
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Dec 2000
    • 16877

    #2
    Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, are you listening? Are you? Here's one man's opinion, as an A/V enthusiast junkie and industry professional too. TAKE WHATEVER TIME IS NEEDED, AND THEN GIVE US ONE HIGH-DEFINITION VIDEO DISC FORMAT. Did you get that? I'm willing to wait, if it means no format war. Do it RIGHT, even if it means some compromises on storage capacity or something, as long as I get ONE format with the BEST resolution of both audio and video.

    Then I'll start buying whatever you put out.
    CHRIS

    Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
    - Pleasantville

    Comment

    • cinema bob
      Senior Member
      • Apr 2005
      • 154

      #3
      if their is a format war the new format will not be accepted at all. it will be like the current dvd-a vs. sacd wars, to the average consumer it doesn't matter. they are happy to wait on the sidelines listening to their cd's. For the average person, who has only a 27" ntsc tv the picture difference between standard DVD's blu-ray's and hd-dvd's will be nonexistent. so what's the point in investing money into one of the two competing formats only to possibly lose compatibility in the future.
      my own personal opinion is the new DVD format will be a laserdisc like format. loved by those who can and do really appreciate the difference, but ignored by most people.

      Comment

      • Lex
        Moderator Emeritus
        • Apr 2001
        • 27461

        #4
        Bob's reply is similar to a thought I just had myself. Perhaps what we the consumers should do is support neither format, to in short teach the manufacturers a lesson, that if they don't get together on stuff, meaning we the consumers can be the loosers, then we will not support new technology. Personally, I'm pretty happy with my upconverted 720p or 1080i DVD image anyway. Look at the DVI or HDMI mess. I mean, why the heck couldn't they make up their mind and produce a single interface.

        Lex
        Doug
        "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

        Comment

        • David Meek
          Moderator Emeritus
          • Aug 2000
          • 8938

          #5
          It's a question of more profits sooner vs. superior technical ability later. In other words money now vs. money later. Yeah, I'm a cynical poop, but prove me wrong.

          Personally, I'm a fan of Blu-Ray with its higher storage capability and broader spectrum of development possibilities in not only HT/music but in the PC/computing world. Why settle for something less when, with a little patience you can have the best option available?
          .

          David - Trigger-happy HTGuide Admin

          Comment

          • George Bellefontaine
            Moderator Emeritus
            • Jan 2001
            • 7637

            #6
            It's looking more and more like a beta/vhs thing. I don't need two more dvd players in my rack so HIDEF or not, I am prepared to wait and see who wins. Bersides, at my age and limited income, I have no intention of replacing all my dvds with HiDef. I would buy new releases as they come out, and will certianly rent, but not if there are two formats. And the quality of todays DVDs is pretty darn good anyway. I know, I know, once you see HiDef you will have trouble going back to standard dvd. :M
            My Homepage!

            Comment

            • netarc
              Member
              • Jul 2003
              • 61

              #7
              An interesting (if biased ) article...

              HD-DVD Must Die

              Comment

              • netarc
                Member
                • Jul 2003
                • 61

                #8
                BTW, this may all be m00t .... hasn't anyone else seen this news?

                Sony, Toshiba Discussing DVD Standard-Source

                Sony, Toshiba Mull Unified Format to Avoid DVD War


                Finally, this is also interesting...
                Panasonic to begin pilot production of Blu-ray discs in May

                Comment

                • Jack Keck
                  Member
                  • Jan 2005
                  • 57

                  #9
                  Originally posted by David Meek
                  It's a question of more profits sooner vs. superior technical ability later. In other words money now vs. money later. Yeah, I'm a cynical poop, but prove me wrong.
                  I think it would be easier to prove that grass is pink than to prove you wrong on something like this.

                  Originally posted by David Meek
                  Personally, I'm a fan of Blu-Ray with its higher storage capability and broader spectrum of development possibilities in not only HT/music but in the PC/computing world. Why settle for something less when, with a little patience you can have the best option available?
                  If people in general and the manufacturers in particular thought like you do, we would eventually have the best option available.

                  Who did win the SACD vs DVD-A war? I like good sound, but I haven't bothered with either. I thought about getting a cheap universal player to check them out (read the sub-$200 Pioneer), but built a new subwoofer instead. Makes the movies and music lots more fun. Kinda makes me think I won the SACD - DVD-A war.
                  Jack

                  "I walked in a lot of place that I never shoulda been, but I know that the Messiah, He will come again."

                  Roy Buchanan

                  Comment

                  • David Meek
                    Moderator Emeritus
                    • Aug 2000
                    • 8938

                    #10
                    Originally posted by netarc
                    BTW, this may all be m00t .... hasn't anyone else seen this news?

                    Sony, Toshiba Discussing DVD Standard-Source

                    Sony, Toshiba Mull Unified Format to Avoid DVD War


                    Finally, this is also interesting...
                    Panasonic to begin pilot production of Blu-ray discs in May
                    I've seen it, but (cynical poop verse #2) I'll believe something concrete when it becomes a reality. All you really have is the two bullies on the block agreeing to talk, not agreeing to anything substantive. Does anyone think that both corporations aren't sharp enough to have known from day one what a format war would mean, and they're just now thinking about ways to avoid it?
                    .

                    David - Trigger-happy HTGuide Admin

                    Comment

                    • Shane Martin
                      Super Senior Member
                      • Apr 2001
                      • 2852

                      #11
                      Few comments:

                      There is some discussion about a compromise but from what I've read as far as comments go from a Sony Exec...

                      Read below:


                      All the parties involved agree that a single format would benefit consumers, but none appear willing to accept an alternative to their chosen technology.
                      Then this very choice comment:
                      However, Taro Takamine, a Sony spokesman in Tokyo has now said that the only talks that Sony would entertain were those of the HD-DVD supporters dropping their format and supporting Blu-ray Disc.
                      Yep sounds like Beta vs VHS all over again.
                      Does anyone think that both corporations aren't sharp enough to have known from day one what a format war would mean, and they're just now thinking about ways to avoid it?
                      By reading the above quote, it appears that they are not looking to avoid it unless one drops their format over another. They know what a format war would mean and Sony knows this from experience. They have done this with multiple #'s of products. Beta being one of them. They challenged Nintendo with Playstation which has paid off big time. While Xbox is a minor threat, its not much of one in Japan and still is pretty much the top console.

                      Sony knows full well what they are doing and what the risks are. They still haven't adopted DVD-A on their Dvd players yet if that says anything.

                      Comment

                      • Andrew M Ward
                        Senior Member
                        • Apr 2005
                        • 717

                        #12
                        I wouldn't worry too much about HD-DVD

                        The HD-DVD camp is doing everything they can to stir up the fear. Soon they will be beaten down and forced to submit.

                        If the three little letters D.V.D. do not appear on the player then Toshiba does not make anymore royalty money...(Which they presently make on every box shipped all over the world) that's all thats holding up the unification.

                        don't get too worked up just yet.

                        just my 2 cents

                        Comment

                        • RebelMan
                          Ultra Senior Member
                          • Mar 2005
                          • 3139

                          #13
                          Bet on HD-DVD

                          I think most of us would agree that Blu-ray has a slight technical advantage over HD-DVD. However, HD-DVD will have the advantage over Blu-ray in the market place. Consumers will identify with it more and it will have the advantage in compatibility, availability and price. Yeah, Blu-ray has huge manufacturer support, but they don't dictate market conditions, consumers do.
                          "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                          Comment

                          • David Meek
                            Moderator Emeritus
                            • Aug 2000
                            • 8938

                            #14
                            Not this lifetime

                            Slight? No, it's not slight at all. The only long-term benefit HD had going for it was the catalog of titles available. But when everyone else (basically) including the PC world is coming out for Blu-Ray. . . . Well, you can go your own way and make movies available, but if all the hardware is incompatible with your little format - adios. Sony learned that with Betamax. Toshiba will learn too.
                            .

                            David - Trigger-happy HTGuide Admin

                            Comment

                            • Andrew M Ward
                              Senior Member
                              • Apr 2005
                              • 717

                              #15
                              Originally posted by David Meek
                              Well, you can go your own way and make movies available, but if all the hardware is incompatible with your little format - adios. Sony learned that with Betamax. Toshiba will learn too.
                              Dell / Microsoft Hmmm... and 100 other major companies have sided with Blu-Ray... name 5 major players with HD-DVD...

                              I think I'm going to have to agree with D.Meek on this one...

                              Comment

                              • RebelMan
                                Ultra Senior Member
                                • Mar 2005
                                • 3139

                                #16
                                You Snooze You Lose.

                                Sobeit. We will visit this again in the near future but then I will be telling you (both) "Told ya so!" I have a pretty good track record predicting the outcome of these types of battles. I'm pretty sure I have this one pinned also. But we will see, so stick around.

                                Public perception is a powerful thing, not hi-tech wizardry.
                                Last edited by RebelMan; 08 May 2005, 03:10 Sunday.
                                "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                                Comment

                                • Chris D
                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                  • Dec 2000
                                  • 16877

                                  #17
                                  Personally, I think the situation is too volitile to predict the next 12 months, maybe even 6 months. We might see a format merger. We may not. We might see one of the formats effectively die before a format war even officially begins in the stores.
                                  CHRIS

                                  Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
                                  - Pleasantville

                                  Comment

                                  • scottielee
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Apr 2005
                                    • 121

                                    #18
                                    since both formats use the same blue laser, i wouldn't be surprised if esoteric and denon will step in to make universal players, like they have done (beautifully, may i add) with sacd and dvd-a. i already have a slight favor towards blu-ray, mainly due to sony's long innovative history, good sense of style (in my opinion), and muscle in film studios. i am also still a big fan of minidiscs, so i am a bit biased
                                    scottie

                                    Comment

                                    • DifferentLee
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Apr 2005
                                      • 113

                                      #19
                                      I posted this on another forum...looks like the format war may be over:

                                      Looks like a breakthrough for a single format if it holds true...

                                      From Consumer Electronics Daily

                                      Blu-ray, HD DVD Compromise Possible Within Week, Report Claims

                                      Talks on a unified standard for the next-generation blue laser disc continue, with proposals for a compromise between the Blu-ray and HD DVD formats possible within the week, press reports from Japan said Mon. The reports, which couldn’t be confirmed, came on the eve of today's Media-Tech conference in Las Vegas, where the rival camps were expected to outline their latest technology claims and possibly address the unification issue.

                                      Under a scenario reported Mon., discussions among HD DVD developer Toshiba and Blu-ray backers Sony and Panasonic envision mutual concessions. HD-DVD would abandon its 0.6-mm disc structure in favor of Bluray's 0.1 mm data substrate. The Blu-ray camp would adopt HD DVD's modulation technology in place of its own. The Nikkei report cited no sources from either camp, and couldn’t be confirmed Mon. owing to time differences with Japan and the unavailability of key contacts en route to Las Vegas for Media-Tech. Similar format-unification reports lacking identified sources have emerged from Japan in recent weeks, with one camp or the other disputing the information or questioning the motivation for the “leaks.”

                                      Disc structure or “form factor” has been the main point of contention between Blu-ray and HD DVD. Toshiba and its allies, which include studios HBO, New Line, Paramount, Universal and Warner, argue that the 0.6mm technology leverages DVD's current infrastructure, and is easier and cheaper to produce than Blu-ray's 0.1 mm technology. The latter system, though, offers promise of greater disc capacity -- desirable to studios such as Disney as well as Blu-ray’s PC backers Dell and Hewlett-Packard. During 1995 unification talks that forged today's DVD, the rival camps agreed on form-factors and modulation systems, with the final product merging the Toshiba/Warner 0.6-mm SD format and the modulation system Philips and Sony created for their MultiMedia CD.

                                      That compromise sacrificed capacity on the final DVD but proved workable. Sources told Consumer Electronics Daily a similar compromise would work for a next-generation blue laser HD format. Most intriguing about the Japan report is the hoped-for compromise proposal by next Mon., May 16. According to Nikkei, “Sony and Toshiba could secure the backing of participating members as early as May 16, when both are scheduled to hold meetings.” More important, perhaps, May 16 is the day Sony has scheduled a news conference on the eve of E3 Expo in L.A. to announce the details of its forthcoming “PS3" videogame console platform. Sony initially announced that its next console will include Blu-ray compatibility, but the company late last month dodged questions on whether it was still committed to Blu-ray for the new platform (CED April 28 p2). Microsoft is expected to take the wraps off its next-gen “Xbox-360" platform late this week on MTV, but any evolution of blue-laser technologies or compromise among formats won't affect the console's planned 4th quarter launch, Microsoft executives said recently (CED April 29 p2). That's because the new Xbox won't use blue-laser technology at all for its HD games and other entertainment programming, but will combine red-laser technology with Microsoft's MPEG 4-based VC-1 compression for HD resolution from conventional DVDs.

                                      Comment

                                      • netarc
                                        Member
                                        • Jul 2003
                                        • 61

                                        #20
                                        Also on Reuters & enGadget

                                        Sony, Toshiba to agree on new DVD format -paper


                                        Peace breaking out between Blu-ray and HD-DVD

                                        Comment

                                        • aud19
                                          Twin Moderator Emeritus
                                          • Aug 2003
                                          • 16706

                                          #21
                                          Anybody feel sorry for all the poor Japanese people who may have already bought Blu-ray players.....?
                                          Jason

                                          Comment

                                          • David Meek
                                            Moderator Emeritus
                                            • Aug 2000
                                            • 8938

                                            #22
                                            Oh yeah. I'm thinking some serious customer dissatisfaction is about to appear in Japan.
                                            .

                                            David - Trigger-happy HTGuide Admin

                                            Comment

                                            • DifferentLee
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Apr 2005
                                              • 113

                                              #23
                                              Yes, the problem with being a really, really early adopter.

                                              Comment

                                              • aud19
                                                Twin Moderator Emeritus
                                                • Aug 2003
                                                • 16706

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by David Meek
                                                Oh yeah. I'm thinking some serious customer dissatisfaction is about to appear in Japan.
                                                They have to be somewhat used to it the way technology develops over there though. Probably one of the few places in the world where it would be tolerated :lol:
                                                Jason

                                                Comment

                                                • George Bellefontaine
                                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                                  • Jan 2001
                                                  • 7637

                                                  #25
                                                  I've always been an early adopter, but not this time. :evil:
                                                  My Homepage!

                                                  Comment

                                                  • Neal_C
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Feb 2003
                                                    • 212

                                                    #26
                                                    I won't be an early adopter of HD-DVD, Blu-Ray or any hybrid disc they come up with considering HVD has already been dubbed the possible successor to these formats.

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Gordon Moore
                                                      Moderator Emeritus
                                                      • Feb 2002
                                                      • 3188

                                                      #27
                                                      It's GO TIME....AGAIN ( :ROLL: )

                                                      Oh Bother, the war is on again :roll:

                                                      Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.

                                                      Comment

                                                      • aud19
                                                        Twin Moderator Emeritus
                                                        • Aug 2003
                                                        • 16706

                                                        #28
                                                        Frankly I'm at the point where I don't plan on supporting either format unless one becomes FIRMLY established a couple years from now. I doubt Joe 6 pack will give a $%&* about the formats either. They're already getting pretty good quality at affordable prices from DVD, you think the average consumer's going to risk getting burnt for either of these....?
                                                        Jason

                                                        Comment

                                                        • Chris D
                                                          Moderator Emeritus
                                                          • Dec 2000
                                                          • 16877

                                                          #29
                                                          Ditto. I'm not going to jump at the first piece of hardware, unless there's some unique circumstances.
                                                          CHRIS

                                                          Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
                                                          - Pleasantville

                                                          Comment

                                                          • saurabh
                                                            Senior Member
                                                            • Feb 2005
                                                            • 329

                                                            #30
                                                            me neither.....never buy new products, specifically electronics and consumer durables....I dont want to be a testing ground for the manufacturers.
                                                            Need is the mother of all Inventions.....I am needy

                                                            Comment

                                                            • RebelMan
                                                              Ultra Senior Member
                                                              • Mar 2005
                                                              • 3139

                                                              #31
                                                              I will take the road less traveled here. I was an early adopter of CD's and DVD's when they came out and we all saw where that got us (competition and all). I intend on being an early adopter of HD-DVD's also.

                                                              The "Force" is with HD-DVD. BD is no match for the power of HD-DVD! Any compassion for BD will be your undoing. I have forseen it. :lol:
                                                              "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                                                              Comment

                                                              • PewterTA
                                                                Moderator
                                                                • Nov 2004
                                                                • 2901

                                                                #32
                                                                I think you have unforseen wrong then....

                                                                Blu-Ray is going to be VERY VERY headstrong. Playstation 3 will cause Blu-Ray to win over HD-DVD...

                                                                Same way as it OPENED up the DVD market. Had PS3 not gone into DVDs, Millions and Millions of people would not have opened up to DVDs as they did. If you look at the sales of DVDs before and after the PS2 was released (which you have to look about 2 to 3 months after it was released) you will notice a double and tripling of sales.

                                                                I think the PS3 will cause this same format "love" for one format over another because you will have millions of kids/young adults/adults that will have the system, be capable of viewing Blu-Ray movies on their PS3 on their HD TV and won't have to buy another $$$ piece of equipment.

                                                                That's just the way I see it that makes the most sense.

                                                                I mean HD-DVD could've pushed to have their format included with PS3 (or heck even Xbox360) and I would say HD-DVD would be the winner then.
                                                                Digital Audio makes me Happy.
                                                                -Dan

                                                                Comment

                                                                • Kyle
                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                  • Jan 2005
                                                                  • 233

                                                                  #33
                                                                  100GB Blue-Ray DVDs

                                                                  My gear

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • RebelMan
                                                                    Ultra Senior Member
                                                                    • Mar 2005
                                                                    • 3139

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by PewterTA
                                                                    I think you have unforseen wrong then....
                                                                    Oh no, my young apprentice, it is you that is mistaken.


                                                                    Blu-Ray is going to be VERY VERY headstrong. Playstation 3 will cause Blu-Ray to win over HD-DVD...
                                                                    Don't be too proud of this technological wonder. You underestimate the power of HD-DVD. 8)


                                                                    Same way as it OPENED up the DVD market. Had PS3 not gone into DVDs, Millions and Millions of people would not have opened up to DVDs as they did. If you look at the sales of DVDs before and after the PS2 was released (which you have to look about 2 to 3 months after it was released) you will notice a double and tripling of sales.
                                                                    That, my Padawan, was a coincidence. DVD's started their metoric rise in 1999 when the prices for players came down. The PS2 was not released until late 2000. However, the fact that PS2 supported DVD's certainly didn't hurt sales. Initially, CD's were far more common place on PS2's then DVD's were.
                                                                    "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • netarc
                                                                      Member
                                                                      • Jul 2003
                                                                      • 61

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Some more on this over at AVrev from May 19, 2005...

                                                                      Toshiba and Sony To Meet Over New HD Disc Format?

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • RebelMan
                                                                        Ultra Senior Member
                                                                        • Mar 2005
                                                                        • 3139

                                                                        #36
                                                                        And over here... http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-...ws.php?id=7994
                                                                        "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • RebelMan
                                                                          Ultra Senior Member
                                                                          • Mar 2005
                                                                          • 3139

                                                                          #37
                                                                          *** DELETED DUPLICATE ***
                                                                          "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • jimmyp58
                                                                            Super Senior Member
                                                                            • Aug 2003
                                                                            • 1449

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Just in case you thought the two camps finally overcame their differences and really had the consumer truly in mind (from the 6/6 issue of Newsweek)...

                                                                            "The format fight between Betamax and VHS is an ancient memory, right? Actually, it might be time to get ready for the sequel. Today's DVDs, which store a maximum of 8.5 gigabytes in dual-layer mode, are perfect for the regular standard-definition TVs in most American homes. But for the relatively small but steady number of people buying high-definition televisions, also known as HDTVs, a new disc format is required to store the higher-quality video. Enter Toshiba and NEC with HD-DVD. Using a blue laser instead of the red laser in current DVDs, it can store 30 gigabytes on two layers, and has the backing of Warner Bros., Paramount and Universal.

                                                                            But Sony and Matsushita have countered with their own blue-laser technology called Blu-ray, which has more capacity, storing 50 gigabytes on two layers. Blu-ray has the support of Sony Pictures and Disney (which includes Miramax and Dimension). Moreover, it's backed not only by an all-star list of consumer-electronics companies like Samsung, Pioneer and Hitachi, but also PC manufacturers Dell, Apple and HP, which see a limitless demand for storage in businesses and the increasingly digital home. And studios can use the extra space for higher-quality video or increased storage; imagine all three "Lord of the Rings" special editions on one disc.

                                                                            So what happens when an unstoppable force (HD-DVD's studio support) meets an immovable object (Blu-ray's hardware backing)? You get a stalemate, and it's becoming more acrimonious by the day. Unification talks between the camps broke down a couple of weeks ago, and both sides are digging in. The HD-DVD folks upped the ante by announcing a 45-gigabyte triple-layer disc, only to see the Blu-ray camp respond with an announcement of a 100-gigabyte disc on four layers. Meanwhile, both sides risk alienating consumers if these corporate titans can't make a deal soon, before both products arrive in stores early next year. "If you need two machines to play both discs, the market will be stillborn," says Reed Hastings, CEO of Netflix. If we were forced to give out an Oscar today, we'd hand it to Blu-ray, but if these guys don't start acting in unison, this sequel could get a thumbs down."

                                                                            Oh well....
                                                                            jpiscitello@ameritech.net

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • DrJRapp
                                                                              Super Senior Member
                                                                              • Apr 2003
                                                                              • 1204

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Way to go Jimmy! Thanks for sending that our way. Extremely well put.
                                                                              Last edited by DrJRapp; 29 May 2005, 19:25 Sunday.
                                                                              Jerry Rappaport

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • i_amadeo
                                                                                Senior Member
                                                                                • May 2005
                                                                                • 110

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Hd dvd
                                                                                :a>

                                                                                blue ray
                                                                                ;-x
                                                                                me and all my 500+DVD collection
                                                                                xx)
                                                                                come into the light

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • jimmyp58
                                                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                                                  • Aug 2003
                                                                                  • 1449

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Thanks Jerry.

                                                                                  It is sad that greed always seems to get in the way of what truly should be the focal point --- the end-user, the consumer. I actually dreaded posting this as there was much enthusiasm during this thread and a few others about the two camps finally getting together for a common goal ... the customer. I tempered my own enthusiasm when I heard of their 'merger' having lived through the Beta & VHS wars of the 80's and most recently, the battles between SACD & DVD-A. And now this....

                                                                                  Sorry to have rained on anyone's parade with this news but I thought it was important to share this very important information as many members and visitors here, along with customers of mine, contemplate purchase decisions now and yet keeping in mind what will come within the next year with high definition DVD.

                                                                                  As I said before, oh well... :cry:
                                                                                  jpiscitello@ameritech.net

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • DrJRapp
                                                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                                                    • Apr 2003
                                                                                    • 1204

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Unfortunatly, the move to High Def Disk, in whatever format will be technology and politically driven and not market driven. At this stage there are unfortunately far too few of us with HD playback capabilities to make enough noise in the marketplace.
                                                                                    Jerry Rappaport

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • RebelMan
                                                                                      Ultra Senior Member
                                                                                      • Mar 2005
                                                                                      • 3139

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Yeah, it is a disappointment. It would be nice if the "two" could learn to play in the same sandbox. That, however, would be wishful thinking.

                                                                                      Yet, even while I consider this impasse, I am still not worried about the outcome though. When you consider the huge following Blueray has one would suspect that it would be a walk in the park for them (Sony). Take a look at Sony's position in the gaming industry and you may draw the same conclusions. However, it's not the walk they thought it would be. I truely believe Sony is very concerned about their opponent. When you take a look at Toshiba's marketing position and the DVD that we all have come to know so well you will see why Sony is so scared.

                                                                                      I believe many (informed) people with the financial wherewithal will quickly adopt the first HD capable devices that hit the show room floors. It's the thing all of us wide-screen HDTV owners have been drooling for. After all, digital cable companies and dish networks have let us down here in so many ways. This will give HD-DVD a quick start in the high-definition market place and Sony knows this.

                                                                                      When prices eventually come down and (less informed) people see their choices they will side with what they already know (assuming all else being equal, like media and pricing). HD-DVD is the logical conclusion to DVD and again, Sony knows this.

                                                                                      Actually, it is Sony that has the most to lose in this battle, not the consumer and they know this!
                                                                                      "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • RebelMan
                                                                                        Ultra Senior Member
                                                                                        • Mar 2005
                                                                                        • 3139

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Jimmy, don't give up on the SACD and DVD-A debacle. DVD-A will see a resurgence and you will have had all of your wishes fulfilled.

                                                                                        Music: LP->CD->DVD-A (DualDisc)
                                                                                        Movies: VHS->DVD->HD-DVD

                                                                                        Then all these discussions will become distant memories! :T
                                                                                        "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • i_amadeo
                                                                                          Senior Member
                                                                                          • May 2005
                                                                                          • 110

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          not necesarily distant memories ....in the very near future we will have "glass disks" like the ones that were used in minority report ...and that my freind will replace all cd -dvd and ....due to the fact that we only move forward in time,,, so does technology so when you finaly have a hd dvd or blue ray ..another tecnological advance will appear...and yet again your favorite movie/music collection...would be outdated....expired..
                                                                                          hence beta /vhs /LD/ 8trac/ vinyl /cassete.....cd /dvd
                                                                                          come into the light

                                                                                          Comment

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