SACD Stand alone vs DVD player

[Andrew Pratt]

Jon et al. What would you think are the differences sonically between say the NS500V SACD/DVD player and the 670 CD only player? Also there are obvious differences in redbook players depending on which DAC's they have on board...are there the same differences in DAC's with SACD players..ie how similar will the 670 sound to say one of the higher end ES models and if there are differences is that due to the DAC's or just the transport/build quality issues etc?

[Lex]

Andrew, though not the SACD expert, I still maintain that there are significant differences in equipment as you go up the food chain. For example, the difference between my Rega and Sony S7000 are substantial. Is it all the DACs? Well, a good part of it, but perhaps that's not all, isolated power supplies, and lots of em, and few capacitors in the output stages, that sort of thing, design considerations all take their role into creating the art that is audio.

I don't for a second try to make myself believe that equipment is equipment in any area, audio or video. Distinctive differences exist based upon the quality that goes in- I guess that's why I am so discriminating in what I purchase, and that's why it usually winds up being a higher end piece. It's not just looks. That's just a side benefit to high end.

Lex

[JonMarsh]

You've raised an interesting question, one that I want to answer, also, for some friends locally who want to start in with SACD, but can't afford a bigger machine like the XA777ES. And, as you point out, the NS500V and the 670 are the likely contenders.

There are many things that affect the sound quality in these machines.

• Stability of master clock- including signal correlated jitter and uncorrelated jitter. This is an issue for DVD/CD player combo's, because to save cost, they usually use a PLL and variable frequency clock, so as to meet the requirements for 44.1 kHz for CD, and 48 kHz for DD. This is less than ideal; it's why in the first generation of DVD players, jitter ranged from mediocre (Sony S7000) to atrocious (everyone else). Seperate switched clocks would be the way to go, if possible. For this reason alone, if I was budget hunting, I'd probably look first at the 670 SACD player, then at a player like the baby Philips DVDQ50, which is progressive scan using the Faroudja/Sage FLI2200 de-interlace chip.
• DAC linearity- both a function of design type and execution- the pulse stream DAC's don't have the same kind of errors as conventional multibit DAC's. Sony's SACD machines in general convert the PCM redbook signal into a DSD signal, doing upsampling and digitial filtering with a 24 bit DSP. There's a general perception that at a given price point, this conversion process produces a very good sounding CD player for the money- perhaps not the absolute best, but clearly in the top tier.
• Post D/A analog circuitry - whether Op Amps are used or more exotic approaches; quality of components in signal path, elimination of coupling caps if possible, etc.
• Power supplies- regulation, and crosstalk- two seperate issues, though often interrelated in execution. The best sounding circuits have multiple independent regulators for each stage, digital and analog. Expensive, of course.
• Sufficient quality in the above factors will make PCM quite competitive with SACD in many or most systems- but not at the same price point. For example, the best CD player I've ever heard IS a DVD/CD player (seemingly violating the first item above)- but it uses "heroic" measures in ALL of these design categories. It has a super low jitter, highly stable master clock. It uses the latest Burr Brown DAC's, and offers the higher "time fidelity" digital filter mode in addition to the standard "measure" mode with this DAC. Furthermore, the D/A process uses a balanced dual differential zero feedback architecture in the I/V converter, and a zero feedback balanced differential output amplifier. All regulators are zero feedback types (meaning, very low inherent output impedance without a feedback loop), and there are totally seperate and isolated power supplies for digitial, video, and audio, with separate ground systems, also. Does this player sound better on CD than a $2000 to $3000 SACD player on CD? Definitely. Does it sound better on CD than the afore mentioned SACD player does on SACD? Well, not quite. Is it worth 3-4 times the money? Go listen to an Ayre D1 and decide for yourself. With the size of my CD collection, if I could afford one, I'd buy one. With a daughter entering college next year, it's not likely!
  

Philips DVDQ50

Naturally, the best thing to do is listen to both in your system, and decide for yourself how well they meet your needs. If I had to order one blind, and audio was my first priority, I'd guess that the 670 would be the safer bet. You could also look for a deal on one of the carousel players, though I'm not personally into those.

A good place to shop for these is Oade Brothers, in George. Give them a call to find out current pricing and availability.

http://www.oade.com/

Best regards,

Jon




Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

[Chip]

Jon,

I bought a Sony SCD-C555ES multi channel SACD changer from Jim Oade for $800.00 shipped about 3 1/2 weeks ago. I wanted to get into SACD but, i really wanted the best redbook cd player within my means.. This player listed for $1700.00 initially then, there was a price drop therefore Oade Bros was able to lower their price to what i paid. Are you familiar with the internals of this unit? Sounds like you know a lot about this stuff (and i don't! lol...)
I'm EXTREMELY happy with ALL aspects of this player. Any thoughts? I'm curious....

Thanks,
- Chip




Chip Engle


"Concrete ain't a spectator sport"


<a href="http://www.htguide.com/bilder/index.cfm?fuseaction=arkivbilder&userid=0&selected userid=336" target="_blank">My HT

[JonMarsh]

Hi Chip,

You've got a fine player- it's one I've recommended to a number of friends while it was available. It has been very successful, even though carousel players often aren't thought of as "audiophile" products. I don't know why, but I was thinking it's availability was a problem. At it's current price from Oade, I think it's something of a steal, particularly since it does have the variable coefficient filters for CD playback. On the SCD777ES, the DF3 setting is my favorite- it's similar to the Wadia filters and the "time correct" setting for the BurrBrown 1704. Which one do you like best?

The 555 is a bit of a step up in price from the new "budget entries", but you get a lot more in build quality for a carousel, and fine all around performance. It's what I want to get my girlfriend into, maybe for XMAS. But I've got to do something about her amplification, also. Too many things to do in the remaining month this year!

Regards,

Jon




Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....