NAD M51 Direct Digital DAC

[JonMarsh]

Another pleasant surprise; more detail and microdyamics with complex timbres, in general, just more "there". This is an old favorite of mine from Telarc. "The Journey" reveals their Flamenco roots, but over a more conventional rock beat, while "Goodbye Tomorrow" is a good example of the more atmospheric cuts.



If you like Acoustic Alchemy or similar artists and haven't heard la Vienta, give them a listen- being on Telarc Jazz, the recording quality is quite high.

[benchtester]

If you like Acoustic Alchemy or similar artists and haven't heard la Vienta, give them a listen- being on Telarc Jazz, the recording quality is quite high.

Just went on Amazon and got the last one (new) for $1.16 plus $2.98 shipping. :B :B

[Johnloudb]

Of course, the SACD of Wish You Were Here offers something that no previous release offered--a discrete MCH mix. That alone makes it a keeper for me. Can't speak to other versions in 2 channel, as I've never owned the album in any format until now, but I think the MCH mix is significant enough to warrant a new release of this.

I don't have surround sound, but after further listening the SACD has some nice qualities mainly smoothness and spaciousness I don't get on the original CD release. Still sounds compressed to me, but not terrible. The magazine review I read had it pretty close to what I'm hearing now.

Yeah, I'm sure in surround sound it's a pretty different animal. Nice music for surround.

John

[wkhanna]

Just went on Amazon and got the last one (new) for $1.16 plus $2.98 shipping. :B :B

There are used SeeDee's available at Amazon, I just got mine a few seconds ago for $1.10. & shipping.

[mb225]

Well, I'm eager to see how this turns out. It isn't cheap, but I'm hoping it's well into the class of performance that it's previously taken $4-5K to buy.

For reference, and those not familiar with my history, this will be compared against the Berkeley Alpha DAC and the Metric Halo LIO-8.

Hi Jon,

I'm very interested in this topic. Have you done any comparisons yet? How does the M51 stack up to your other DACs?

I've been thinking about upgrading my DAC and this discussion couldn't have come at a better time.

[JonMarsh]

Hi Jon,

I'm very interested in this topic. Have you done any comparisons yet? How does the M51 stack up to your other DACs?

I've been thinking about upgrading my DAC and this discussion couldn't have come at a better time.

I've been getting ready a new system for the playback tests, a Macbook Pro upgraded to an SSD, which can drive the NAD in USB, or the Metric Halo in Firewire. Driving the Berkeley Alpha DAC will have to use a Hiface EVO as the interface to AES/EBU. It's nearly ready, but I'm getting ready for business travel this weekend, so I expect start the comparisons in earnest the following weekend. I'm also setting up all DAC's to be compared with standard Redbook CD on AES/EBU (which is common to all three; the MH LIO-8 does't have S/PDIF), which requires programming a new configuration for the MH LIO-8.

Sorry for this delay, but slow work takes time!

[JonMarsh]

I don't have surround sound, but after further listening the SACD has some nice qualities mainly smoothness and spaciousness I don't get on the original CD release. Still sounds compressed to me, but not terrible. The magazine review I read had it pretty close to what I'm hearing now.

Yeah, I'm sure in surround sound it's a pretty different animal. Nice music for surround.

John

Spun that disk while working today- just the hybrid CD layer- your comments, John, are pretty similar to my first impressions- the midrange seems richer and cleaner, nicer harmonic presentation, and the overall balance a bit warmer. Keyboard instruments and acoustic guitar sound very good. It is a quite different presentation- I suppose what I'll need to do is get the SACD extraction setup working again, too, and do an Audacity comparison between the old SBM Sony release, the hybrid layer, and the CD layer. Might be a few weeks before I can find the time to do that. In the meantime, I have to say I consider it money well spent, in spite of owning the SBM version. That one definitely has more dynamics and "ice" into the sound, judging from my memory of hearing it a couple of weeks ago.

[simon wagstaff]

I don't quite understand.

Why all this talk of DSD audio stripping? To me the unique feature is the HDMI input, this should permit the use of the HDMI connection to access DVD-A, SACD and blu ray albeit only in stereo. That is fine with me. I listen to a lot of surround but find high quality 2 channel sound hard to beat. The limitations of most dacs is the lack of the ability to play back hi rez discs.

How does this unit sound via the HDMI input and are there any strategies implemented to reduce the jitter inherent to HDMI? Will it decode blu ray audio?

Currently using a Denon blu ray player and denon receiver via Denon link 4. I would be very interested in a simplified system based up this dac as a pre-amp into my AVA U70 tube amp as long as I could still play DVD-A, SACD and maybe even blu ray audio discs (all three of them) through it.

[JonMarsh]

Why all this talk of DSD audio stripping? To me the unique feature is the HDMI input, this should permit the use of the HDMI connection to access DVD-A, SACD and blu ray albeit only in stereo. That is fine with me. I listen to a lot of surround but find high quality 2 channel sound hard to beat. The limitations of most dacs is the lack of the ability to play back hi rez discs.

How does this unit sound via the HDMI input and are there any strategies implemented to reduce the jitter inherent to HDMI? Will it decode blu ray audio?

Currently using a Denon blu ray player and denon receiver via Denon link 4. I would be very interested in a simplified system based up this dac as a pre-amp into my AVA U70 tube amp as long as I could still play DVD-A, SACD and maybe even blu ray audio discs (all three of them) through it.

That's what this unit was purchased for, a secondary system for audio and HT 2.0 (in my bedroom). But, first I wanted to pop it into the main system and check it out for audio quality. Well, it's gotten stuck there, so far.

The m51 will decode dual channel PCM audio, setup on a DVD or Blu-ray player.

The references to DSD stripping from SACD disks is because I have a modified SACD player with a special board on it, which converts the DSD signals at the DAC to 24bit 176.4 kHz PCM, which is output on an S/PDIF connector. This is not for playback (in my case, though the modified players you can buy in Eastern Europe are sold for that purpose); I modified mine for recording the high resolution PCM signal from the DSD conversion, so that they can be archived and used on my music servers with an external high performance PCM DAC.

My personal experience is that you can get comparable audio quality in a PCM DAC in the $5K or even less range that one may have to spend over $10K with SACD to match (say, a dCS Debussy versus a Metric Halo ULN-8 or LIO-8, or a Berkeley Alpha DAC). Now, I'm coming to the opinion that the M51 nips closely on those heels. I haven't heard an SACD player yet in the 7K or less range that's competitive (Marantz SA-7, Esoteric several models, etc).

The M51 uses unspecified SRC technology proprietary to the ZETEX DDFA overview of the architecture. NAD says their architecture is based on a technology running from a 108 MHz clock and has very high jitter rejection. Tests of the NAD M2 at Stereophile, which uses the same ZETEX chip architecture, seems to back up those claims- measured jitter was at the residual of their test system, even on Toslink inputs, at 123 ps RMS. Dynamic range for the chipset is excellent also, I'm sure in part because it's an eight channel chipset and they parallel four channels together for each channel in the M2 and the M51.

I'm generally not too fond of off the shelf SRC solutions, but after listening to the M51 extensively, I'd have to say, so far, so good. I have NOT tried it with Blu-Ray yet on HDMI inputs; that's coming up next weekend.

[simon wagstaff]

Thanks for your reply. I am looking forward very much to hearing about more of your experiences with this DAC.

On a sort of related topic, any idea how this compares to the recently released NAd dd390? Supposedly there is an HDMI input board that can be inserted.

[JonMarsh]

My understanding is that the digital architectures of the two products use the same ZETEX DDFA chip set, but the C 390DD is a lower cost complete integrated amplifier at a more affordable price point and power level than the M2. However, I would by no means term the C 390DD "low end", as it is even designed from the get go to be expandable (optional HDMI module or analog phono module with ADC) and upgradeable, and has some additional functions, like an electronic crossover to support subwoofers, Room EQ support (a questionable feature in anyone's system, unless there's only ever 1 listening position). At the typical selling price of $2600, there's a lot of functionality and capability for the money. Never heard it, though.

The M51 is aimed at those for whom the digital front end is desired, but integrated into a more conventional system (that would be me...

[simon wagstaff]

I just noticed the cross-over and HDMI pass through. I guess in theory you could set up the 390DD to run a 2.1 front stereo system and run the HDMI back into a home theater receiver for surround (center and rears) when required.

Seems very interesting!

[dwk]

Very interesting product. It may be a difficult decision between the NAD and the Mytek which offers DSD over either usb or firewire @1.5k. My main concern about the Mytek is that my playback chains seem to always have some sort of DSP involved, which renders the DSD features more or less academic. I'm not entirely sure that I'm looking to spend $2k on a DAC, but this is a very intriguing unit that might well be worth stretching the budget for.

[JonMarsh]

Very interesting product. It may be a difficult decision between the NAD and the Mytek which offers DSD over either usb or firewire @1.5k. My main concern about the Mytek is that my playback chains seem to always have some sort of DSP involved, which renders the DSD features more or less academic. I'm not entirely sure that I'm looking to spend $2k on a DAC, but this is a very intriguing unit that might well be worth stretching the budget for.

I would SERIOUSLY recommend anyone considering spending in the area of $1K to $2K audition this unit before spending their money on anything else... the more I listen, the more delighted I am with it, though I'm very hesitant to go running off at the mouth about it until finishing a "formal" shoot out.

Just tonight while finishing up some work and personal emails, I've been listening to this album-



Now, grated, it's a new CD remaster, but the point of consideration is that it seems to smoke my older DiMeola SACD's on my $7K SACD player.... that's one heck of a remastering job, or....

It's pretty hard to get any solid info on the ZETEX DDFA chip set, there's one AES paper I have, and a few other dribs and drabs... of course, in the end, it's not about the technology per se, but how it works and sounds.


Just fine one and go listen to it....

It's got me jazzed up enough about how things are working to even go off the deep end a bit on another new speaker project!

[dwk]

It's pretty hard to get any solid info on the ZETEX DDFA chip set, there's one AES paper I have, and a few other dribs and drabs... of course, in the end, it's not about the technology per se, but how it works and sounds.

Well, I think 'the technology' ends up mattering more often than not - it's definitely a part of the subjective response to a piece of gear. Be it 'tubes', 'class A', 'NOS' etc, I think it's pretty difficult for most to be completely immune from being influenced by that type of 'intangible'. I've always had a soft spot for the Panasonic receivers that use the TI Equibit PCM to PWM approach. Not necessarily 'high end' as such, but a signature that I find much more acceptable than the typical budget receiver. So, it's not a big surprised that I'm attracted to the NAD, I think.

Just fine one and go listen to it....

Tell ya what - bring yours out to Denver for RMAF . That's pretty much my target time for a DAC purchase, so it would work out for everyone

[Chris D]

FWIW, CEDIA will be coming back to Denver in 2013, too!

[Evil Twin]

For those of an Acoustic Alchemy bent...

Now spinning, for the first time... I think it's a keeper on all accounts.





Nice compositions, and well recorded- sounds a cut above their usual high studio standards.

Even a Sith Lord has to relax now and then...

[JonMarsh]

What happened to the Acoustic?

In Acoustic Alchemy?

I suppose I shouldn't complain- there's some really nice organ work that's gotta be a Hammond B3 on the first two cuts- reminds me of the old days. Wish I could have kept that, but where do you keep a 400 lb. organ around an apartment or Condo?

[CardioFitness]

Hi there Jon, When is the full review coming out ?

[PavelL]

Hi there Jon, When is the full review coming out ?

Yeah, where's the review?
Been lurking around for quite some time now and can't wait no more.
Nothing but CD covers in this otherwise promising thread

[Chris D]

[JonMarsh]

Well, the last piece in the puzzle for doing the comparison I want to do will be arriving next Tuesday or Wednesday, so if all proceeds as expected, I should be able to start the serious comparison finally. That piece is a Berkeley Alpha USB interface. Been on back order a while.

Berkeley Alpha USB interface




Then I'll be able to compare all three DACs with computer interfaces as well as with conventional Digital interfaces, and perhaps also shed some light on how good the USB interface in the M51 is- Berkeley believes that for noise isolation reasons, you're better off with a two box solution.

I've found that even the simple buffering an Antelope Audio Isochrone DA can provide (no reclocking) significantly improves what I hear from the original Berkeley Alpha DAC. So I'll be comparing the internal USB solution and a first rate external one.


Review of Berkeley Alpha USB interface

That I'm even seriously discussing comparing a $2K DAC with a $5K DAC plus $2K interface, and another $5K DAC with Firewire interface should tell you how impressed I am with the M51's value proposition.

Yeah, and work is a b*tch right now, too, so that tends to slow things down that would rely on time in the evenings...

Slowly I turn... step by step... inch by inch....

[JonMarsh]

Christmas was a little early this week-

Too bad I'm swamped with work!

Pretty is as pretty does, not really a lot to look at.







Tons of work between now and the weekend, but knowing it is here is one less thing to think about.

This is the kind of stuff on my mind instead- Power Factor Correction simulation using PLECS, a simulator from PLEXIM, a company from Switzerland. Good software, and runs on my Mac, too. Design project for one of our computing customers.

[JonMarsh]

Time to annoy everyone with another CD post... It's the Hiromi Channel again!

Now spinning on the M51 while I'm working away on the power factor design documentation....

Editorial Reviews
Pianist and composer Hiromi Uehara, whose passionate and incendiary keyboard work has been a shining light on the jazz landscape since her 2003 debut, believes that the voice that never speaks can sometimes be the most powerful of all. Her newest release, a nine-song trio recording simply titled Voice, expresses a range of human emotions without the aid of a single lyric.
"When I play music, I realize that it really filters emotions," says Hiromi. "I called this album Voice because I believe that people's real voices are expressed in their emotions. It's not something that you really say. It's more something that you have in your heart. Maybe it's something you haven't said yet. Maybe you're never going to say it. But it's your true voice. Instrumental music is very similar. We don't have any words or any lyrics to go with it. It's the true voice that we don't really put into words, but we feel it when it's real."

Although a mesmerizing instrumentalist in her own right, Hiromi enlists the aid of two equally formidable players for this project - bassist Anthony Jackson (Paul Simon, The O'Jays, Steely Dan, Chick Corea) and drummer Simon Phillips (Toto, The Who, Judas Priest, David Gilmour, Jack Bruce). Jackson had previously played on a couple tracks from each of Hiromi's first two albums - Another Mind in 2003 and Brain in 2004 - but they had never recorded an entire album together. "I've always been a huge fan of his bass playing," she says. "I've always liked playing with him, and I was very happy that we finally had the chance to make an entire album together."

Taken as a whole, the individual tracks on Voice do tell a story, says Hiromi, but she's quick to note that the story is open-ended and subject to interpretations. "I'm not talking about a story in the sense of a novel," she says. "People can just listen to it and decide how it reflects their own lives. They can just imagine whatever the music makes them imagine. That's the beautiful thing about music without words. It's just a matter of using your imagination, finding your own voice within the music, and traveling with it wherever it takes you."

Short explanation- Hiromi's trio is up to their usual high standards, and this album alternatively rocks and swings. Highly recommended for fans.

[JonMarsh]

:evil: Just got off the phone with a conference call with Europen HQ, regarding an ongoing project with short deadline for major customer, and it looks like I'll be working all weekend, not playing with DAC's. :evil:

:M

[dwk]

You see what happens when you leave us hanging?

I caved.

[wkhanna]

.... Just got off the phone with a conference call with Europen HQ...........

You got to stop answering the phone, Jon!

[JonMarsh]

You got to stop answering the phone, Jon!

No kidding! Knocked off work about 8 PM last night, been back at it this morning, and exchanging emails with Europe since 6 this AM.

NOT the way to spend a weekend. Next weekend I'm flying to Munich, I feel like I've only had one weekend for myself so far this month!

[CardioFitness]

*Sad Panda Face*

[bigburner]

We are all sad pandas.

[JonMarsh]

Just to stir the pot a little...

posted on another forum, in a discussion with me and others...


I have had an m51 for several weeks now. This is a phenomenal sounding dac
and the volume control is the best I have ever used, by far. As a matter of
fact, this sounds better than any dac I have owned (included the Berkeley
(one, not two) and the Weiss dac2. I am really surprised more people aren't
talking about this. Having hdmi inputs is great. This has replaced my preamp
as well.


How are you using it, woodcans? I'm particularly interested in whether you
have compared going directly to its USB input vs going through the Empirical
Off-Ramp and then to the M51 via coax or AES. In other words, how good is the
USB on the M51?


@DanRubin: Thus far I have only used it with the OR4 to coax in for music.
This is mainly due to time constraints. I plan on comparing the OR4 to the
USB input on the DAC in the upcoming weeks. I will post my opinion once I
have one. The hdmi input playing blu-ray concerts (and movies) sounds
fantastic.

@jonmarsh: I, too, wish it had a front panel volume control. A knob would
have been ideal, but up/down buttons would have sufficed. That is my only
criticism as well. I would gladly have paid a little more for it, but I agree
they were probably trying to reach a price point.

One additional note. I had an audiophile buddy over for a listening session
Saturday night. During the session I played a blu-ray rip of the Immersion
box set version of Wish You Were Here. He is not a big PF fan, but we were
both mesmerized for the entire album. Needless to say, he was quite
impressed, and this is considering he has a multi buck Vandy/Levinson rig in
a dedicated room.

[harryharry]

I just bought the NAD M51.

I needed a DAC for my bedroom system where I have a pair of Zaph ZD5 loudspeakers and a HTPC for movies and music. I just wanted a simple DAC with remote control and a sound that I could live with so first I started out trying some soundcards I had laying around. First I tried a M-Audio Audiophile 2496. This sounded quite bad. Then I tried a modded AUZEN X-MERIDIAN 2G. This was much better, however it was just sounding too much of everything.

Then I brought my Twisted Pear Audio Buffalo II dac from my main listening room. Then everything fell in place. However I do not have a remote or volume control for this DAC. It is possible to make this however time consuming. So for this setup I wanted to buy a new DAC.

First I tried the Hegel HD20. This DAC has gotten raving reviews in many magazines. However I believe more in my own ears. To me the sound was very boring. Particulary in the top end. In complex acustic music the tones melted together and I felt the transient response was much lower than my TP BII.

I then tried the NAD M51. The sound is so similar to my TP BII that I would never manage to distinguage them in a blind test. The TP BII is a tiny bit brighter in the top end and the NAD seems to have a bit more detail in the whole sound spectrum. I think I prefer the NAD M51.

I tested the USB, coax and AES/EBU for both normal and HD sound. All sampling rates I tried worked fine.

The dac is connected directly to some power amps, and there are no hiss at all even at very low volume.

So far I am very pleased by this DAC.

[dwk]

I've had a bit of listening time to my M51 through some Stax phones (SRS-3050 setup). Initial impressions are (somewhat disappointingly) that it sounds better through optical than through HDMI - redbook over optical sounds pretty darn good, but I'm less thrilled with SACD->PCM over HDMI. This is tentative since I haven't really listened to most of the SACD content that I used, though. I may try a redbook HDMI/spdif comparison at some point if I get time to get a better sense of the HDMI quality.
My long-term plan would be to use USB for hi-rez, but that requires actually recording the SACD content using the HDMI de-embedder to optical approach, and I was hoping that the HDMI quality would be sufficient to make that unnecessary for the SACD content I already have. Maybe not.
I'll have to wait for a bit until I can get my squeezebox setup to try material I'm more familiar with. We're in the process of getting our house ready to list, and that involved tearing up a bunch of 'infrastructure' including my wired network to this side of the house.

[JonMarsh]

At SFO airport this Saturday AM leaving for Germany on business.

Most of my listening has been with the AES/EBU. Initial impressions are that the built in USB is OK, but that the Berkeley Alpha USB is better. More coherent, more of a you are there kind of sound. Take that with a grain of salt, it's very short term listening- crazy busy this month at work, no free time on weekends for the most part.

Interesting thing is that even older semi-crappy CD's sound better- especially in the midrange, but everywhere over all.

[puccainbkk]

Is M51 true (pure) XLR ??

[trazom]

Good morning to everybody and thank to the moderator for welcoming me to this site.

The informations about the M51 are very promising.

Did anybody make some more experiences with the HDMI Input with HiRez signals (like such from an OPPO 95 SACD Y PCM 88.2 or from BluRay)?

Thank you and have a great weekend.

[trazom]

... btw here's an excellent review on French Haute Fidelité 175 2/2012 ...

Modernity, innovation and musicality, that's enough to delight any audiophile DAC possessor. It stands out brilliantly from the competition ...

http://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2012/01/30...-fevrier-2012/

[JonMarsh]

Unfortunately, the links don't work. Of course, I haven't studied French since the 8th grade, either!

[trazom]

Unfortunately, the links don't work. Of course, I haven't studied French since the 8th grade, either!

here you are

http://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2012/01/30...-fevrier-2012/

and as for the language: google translate does a pretty good job ;-)))

still so happy with the M51? I am thaaaaat close to buying it ...

wishing you a great weekend ...

[JonMarsh]

Still digging out from under...

in the meantime, another CD cover, or rather, SACD cover...

Now spinning on the M51 (trying to get a feel for the SACD layer in PCM versus the CD straight in through AES/EBU).




Very organic reproduction of the guitar transients and drum; this DAC does well with harmonic envelopes with fast attach and decay.

[trazom]

[QUOTE=JonMarsh]in the meantime, another CD cover, or rather, SACD cover...

Now spinning on the M51 (trying to get a feel for the SACD layer in PCM versus the CD straight in through AES/EBU).

... what source do you use for SACD - and how do you enter the M51 with HiRez PCM Signals - what input?

Thanks

[JonMarsh]

[QUOTE=trazom]

in the meantime, another CD cover, or rather, SACD cover...

Now spinning on the M51 (trying to get a feel for the SACD layer in PCM versus the CD straight in through AES/EBU).

... what source do you use for SACD - and how do you enter the M51 with HiRez PCM Signals - what input?

Thanks

You cannot enter DSD directly into the M51. I have a SACD player which I modified with a special board from Audiopraise, in the Czech republic, which picks up the DSD signals from BurrBrown/TI DACs of certain types, and using an FPGA, converts it into a 24 bit PCM signal, with filtering, at either 88.2 kHz or 176.4 kHz for an external DAC. I capture this signal using an RME Fireface 800 interface, and record it using Wave Editor. Then I edit it into the separate music tracks, and save as AIFF files, which can be played back on my Mac's, for example, using Fidelia. Wave Editor and Fidelia are from Audiophile Engineering.

Audiofile Engineering

Audiofile Engineering uses licensed Izotope routes for critical digital filtering and sample rate conversion, and the quality is very high, IMO.

[JonMarsh]

It's still all about the music and what it does for you....



Rolling and a tumbling...

[trazom]

DSD > PCM 88.2 > HDMI out > HDMI in (M51)

Thank you Jon - sounds very interesting.

I asked because the Oppo 95 does the same thing (DSD > PCM 88.2/24) but you can only access via HDMI. Would be interesting to see, how that performs with the M51 over HDMI.

Anybody out there having such (or similar) combination?

Wish everybody a good sunday.

[dwk]

Thank you Jon - sounds very interesting.

I asked because the Oppo 95 does the same thing (DSD > PCM 88.2/24) but you can only access via HDMI. Would be interesting to see, how that performs with the M51 over HDMI.

Anybody out there having such (or similar) combination?

Wish everybody a good sunday.

Yes - I'm using an Oppo 980HD to send SACD output over hdmi @88.2 into the M51. At this point I can say that it works well, as long as you have a monitor attached to complete the HDMI handshake. I haven't done any critical comparisons between HDMI and other interfaces though.