NAD M51 Direct Digital DAC

[trazom]

Yes - I'm using an Oppo 980HD to send SACD output over hdmi @88.2 into the M51. At this point I can say that it works well, as long as you have a monitor attached to complete the HDMI handshake. I haven't done any critical comparisons between HDMI and other interfaces though.

thank you very much for information - if you should do some critical comparisons would be very nice, if you could share.

Best

[gabeg]

Hi Jon -

I am very interested in the M51 so thank you for posted your thoughts. I am interested in hearing more about the usb input which would be one of the main selling points for me. If you are hearing better sound via a usb to spdif converter that would be a concern to me since spdif is supposed to be inferior.

I'm coming from a two piece Muse Electronics set up that uses an I2S variant to connect the two so I like the idea of a clock locked source.

[DanRubin]

LIO-8 comparison

Jon (and anyone else who might have experience),

Do you have any thoughts yet on the M51 vs. the LIO-8? That comparison would have to juggle several transport considerations, of course. I'm wondering if any configuration with the M51 could be a clear improvement over a Mac Mini -> LIO-8 via Firewire, or if it would be a sideways move at best.

Dan

[CardioFitness]

Missing In Action ?

[DanRubin]

What Cardio said! Where art thou, JonMarsh?

[wkhanna]

Jon's recent schedule is inhuman even by his standards with international business travels and a V rare vacation in Austria & Czech.

Don't despair, he will be among us again shortly. :W

[PewterTA]

Bill...

I think we need a NAD M51 to compare to the BiFrost & 840c CDP. Ha ha.

[earflappin]

Anybody have any idea when Jon will be back? As a LIO-8 owner I am eager to hear his comparative impressions. Has anybody heard a Mytek 192 DSD Stereo DAC? This seems to also punch well above its price point according to many who have auditioned and/or own it. The new Lynx HiLo also looks interesting. Lots of DACs to choose from out there, that's for sure.

[ejr1953]

Jon,

I attended an event at my local audio salon a month ago and had an opportunity to attend a session hosted by NAD, where they auditioned the M51, pretty darn impressive! I've had NAD equipment for years and have enjoyed the sound quality, simplicity of operation and high quality (for the price). Over a year ago I upgraded my electronics to the Master Series M3, M4 & M5.

For those (like myself) "dipping a toe" into the world of DAC units, check out the NAD DAC1 unit (about $300). I bought one of those, and a $5/mo subscription to www.mog.com (stream 320k MP3s) and the sound is very good (probably CD quality).

NAD had a prototype SACD player at the audio event which looked like it also could be used like an external DAC as well.

I'll need to wait a bit for a higher-end DAC, sprung for a set of the Totem Element "Fire" monitors...

[CardioFitness]

I'm starting to loose faith

[JonMarsh]

Well, I'm in the Prague airport as I write this, departing for Munich then SFO afterwards.

Sheesh! Three weeks away seems like a long time!

I'll have one more option soon to throw into this mix; while over here I followed up with Pavel at AudioPraise, where I got the board to setup a Pioneer DV79 for SACD conversion to S/PDIF; they now have a multi-channel board for the Oppo BDP-93 multi-format player, with 4 stereo pairs of S/PDIF output to handle multi-channel. I ordered a BDP-93, which should deliver on Tuesday; no confirmation on the Vanity-93 board, but I ordered it on the weekend. The technology is similar to the older board, but updated; looks pretty interesting. It's plug and play into the Oppo; just replaces the standard analog board.



So, this will be my numero uno priority this coming weekend, unless the sky falls in or WWIII starts. Note, I do now have one of the Berkeley Alpha USB to AES/EBU or S/PDIF boxes also, so I'll be comparing that as appropriate- say, built in USB of the NAD M51 to the Berkeley Alpha into the AES/EBU of the M51.

In the end, don't forget, it's just one guys opinion- the purpose here is to have a recommendation for others to investigate for themselves, maybe narrow down the field or identify an option for you to confirm.

[wkhanna]

That board looks like it came directly from the Empire's triple top secret R&D WMD lab.

It just wreaks ‘Dark Side’.


No wonder you like it!

[JonMarsh]

You got that right!

Just touched down at SFO, and pulled up to the gate- it's good to be almost home!

[bigburner]

I'm glad that you didn't have the Vanity-93 board with you Jon because Homeland Security would probably have confiscated it and held you for interrogation, perhaps even given you a glass of water or two.

Nigel.

[JonMarsh]

I'm glad that you didn't have the Vanity-93 board with you Jon because Homeland Security would probably have confiscated it and held you for interrogation, perhaps even given you a glass of water or two.

Nigel.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


Yeah, Pavel was out of town from Prague for the weekend, or I might have! besides, it would have pushed me over the duty free limit for bringing back stuff! We'll, it's paid for and on the way shortly.

[w_thongchai]

Jon:

Awaiting for your further comparison. I'm seriously considering between Berkeley DAC2 vs M51 now. DAC2 is highly backed-order and so does M51 in my area or would like to do home trial myself.

Chai

[JonMarsh]

I can easily imagine availability is tight in your market- as it was, I expected availability to be tight in the USA when introduced, so when I found out Audio Advisor had gotten their first shipment in, but it wasn't on the web site, I ordered by phone. Don't regret that at all.

I just got the Vanity93 board in yesterday, so it will get installed in the Oppo BDP-93, and I'll have all the desired test configurations available.

right now I'm putting together a test matrix of source and recording types and interfaces to compare. It can't quite be an apples to apples because of the differences between the LIO-8 and the other two (fire wire versus USB), but I'll use the same source system and player software. Will test in several different operating modes, will explain more later.

[DanRubin]

The Lynx Hilo looks like another candidate for this never-ending journey.

[earflappin]

Anybody have any idea when Jon will be back? As a LIO-8 owner I am eager to hear his comparative impressions. Has anybody heard a Mytek 192 DSD Stereo DAC? This seems to also punch well above its price point according to many who have auditioned and/or own it. The new Lynx HiLo also looks interesting. Lots of DACs to choose from out there, that's for sure.

Yes, the Hilo and Mytek 192 DSD both would be worthy of inclusion in Jon's comparative study. I am willing to send Jon a Hilo if he has the time to test it with his other DACs.

[JonMarsh]

What do you guys know about the Hilo that makes it particularly interesting to you? I'm truly curious; there's so many products being released all the time, how does one decide what to seek out and give it a try? For me, the M51 was of interest because it's a line level usage of the Zetex DDFA chip set as used in the Masteround series NAD amp which does measure rather remarkably well- and the claimed performance came at a refreshingly reasonable (well, sort of, relatively, uh....) price point.

Just curious what you're hearing on the street about the Hilo- I haven't had time to research it, but if you're possibly into it, I'm curious why - always looking for noteworthy items.

[earflappin]

Hi Jon,

You raise a very good about the littany of DACs flooding the market. How does one know when one is worthy of personal audition. The Hilo piqued my interest for the following reasons: (1) setting a new benchmark in the DAC loopback tests - the LIO-8 sits pretty high on those same tests and the HILO beat it. Now I will be the first to admit that test is not the ultimate proxy for sound quality, but again the fact it beat the LIO-8 got my attention, (2) several industry professionals I know have heard it and been very impressed, (3) several die hard and discerning headphone guys are raving about it, (4) several pro audio guys with lots of DAC experience have been impressed....

It may be dry hole.... :-). Anyway, I'm going to take one for the team and get one and compare it to my LIO-8 and report back. You've got your hands full and have already been so generous with sharing your experiences. If it rings my bell I will send it to you if you care to try it.

I must say if you weren't getting ready to share your findings on the M51 I would probably have gotten one of those to try by now for the reasons you stated.

[JonMarsh]

Now, that's exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for- so thanks much! Was work working most of this weekend, but hope to be out from under that problem next weekend-

I'll be very interested to hear what you think of the HILO in your system. I'm always curious about the technical details, so I'll have to dig in and see what I can find...

[JonMarsh]

I tracked it down on the web....

Interesting results- I'm presuming you were referring to this thread?


Loop back test thread


I think it's a very interesting metric for pro situations where you want both A/D and D/A, though it likely doesn't distinguish well where the "issues" lie.

The supplementary report links are quite useful and fill in the picture better.

Even the 60 Hz waves and sawtooth gave some possibly unexpected results- I suspect that lies with the A/D analog front end not being completely flat and having some phase shift- something that can be subtlety audible but is harder to pin point in tests.

Test efforts like this, and the test measurements John Atkinson does at Stereophile are the kinds of things I'm most interested in and look at closely.

Still, one point that can't be ignored- if you need more than just stereo, the LIO-8 is an unmatched deal- especially since the headphone amps are of the same quality, maybe it should be called a LIO-10! I'm still getting ready a dipole speaker design for which the lower crossover and dipole EQ will be done by the LIO-8. That's going to tide me over while I'm working on the Isis/DeathStar project, and I have to pull the midranges out of the Modula Xtremes.

[stuofsci02]

If anyone hasn't seen it, the M51 gets favourable reviews in this months Stereophile issue..

Cheers

Stuart

[JonMarsh]

If anyone hasn't seen it, the M51 gets favourable reviews in this months Stereophile issue..

Cheers

Stuart

Hadn't seen that yet, but was hoping for it soon- that's worth a trip to Barnes and Noble to pick up a copy!

[sokoban]

Still, one point that can't be ignored- if you need more than just stereo, the LIO-8 is an unmatched deal- especially since the headphone amps are of the same quality, maybe it should be called a LIO-10! I'm still getting ready a dipole speaker design for which the lower crossover and dipole EQ will be done by the LIO-8. That's going to tide me over while I'm working on the Isis/DeathStar project, and I have to pull the midranges out of the Modula Xtremes.

Yeah, and ULN-8s make really good ultraportable soundboards for live applications.

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, and ULN-8s make really good ultraportable soundboards for live applications.

Yeah, the whole virtual mixer capabilities of the ULN-8 and LIO-8 (with upgrades) are pretty awesome- completely configurable, and on screen control.

[alebonau]

Hadn't seen that yet, but was hoping for it soon- that's worth a trip to Barnes and Noble to pick up a copy!

can be accessed electronically as well if have zinio subscription via ipad or pc. great review. gets a pretty good write up

[JonMarsh]

I just bought a zino subscription to Stereophile, just for this reason, but have been so busy I haven't set up the account on my Mac and downloaded it yet! Pathetic! You don't want to know what's going on at work these days...

Heading to Munich in another week, too, a last minute trip. An ugly trip routing on USAIR. Will have to do something about this...

[JonMarsh]

Purchased just the issue....

And it is impressive. There are some quirks, mainly noise floor modulation and distortion modulation for signals above -3 dBFS, which fortunately is pretty rare...

JA's final comment:

NAD's M51 Direct Digital DAC offers measured performance that is almost beyond reproach. Color me impressed.

-John Atkinson

Jon Iverson's final comment:

I prefer DACs that reveal as much as possible about what was captured on the tape or in the digits, and couldn't care less about adding a rose-colored tint to dodgy digital sound. In this regard, the NAD M51 succeeds with a wonderfully detailed and revealing sound best described as hones, with a friendly smile. And it was a pleasure to listen to.
In other words, bitstream brilliance.

Just one teaser regarding measurements, which gives a good idea of how well this unit works. Not easy to get this up under 100K, I'll update this later with a better copy. I'm only posting this as an inducement for you to buy the magazine in one form or another and check out the review. I've got a a new Photobucket account but haven't set it up yet.



This is EXTREMELY good low level performance and absence of noise- look at how the noise floor drops with 24 bit data, but even how low it is with 16 bit data- note the excellent reproduction of undithered 16 bit LSB into a virtually perfect square wave with the expected GIBBS pre and post ring on the leading edge reproduced cleanly. Compare this with what many expensive SACD players can barely do.... The undithered 24 bit -93 dB sine data is also excellent.

For me, these measured results and the comments in the review definitely reinforce my impressions that this is the unit that sets the bar in this price class and punches well out of it's weight class.

[earflappin]

Now to find out it compares to the LIO-8 and BADA2 in head to head listening tests.... There seems to be several posters who have concluded the M51 sounds its best with an outboard USB/SPDIF- AES converter versus it's own internal native USB port. Wait for it....Jon has one of those too....the Alpha USB.

[JonMarsh]

VERY short listening tests done when I first got the M51 indicated to me that the USB getting the same 44.1 file was not quite as solid and "you are there' as the same file played off disk through the AES/EBU, but that was just one impression on one cut- a more rigorous test is needed. And as you note, the Alpha USB will be a big part of that comparison. Starting tomorrow I hope!

Meanwhile, off to Petaluma CA this AM for a customer visit.

[earflappin]

Happy Father's Day everyone. Hard to believe this thread is six months old. Time does fly.

[earflappin]

Yeah, where's the review?
Been lurking around for quite some time now and can't wait no more.
Nothing but CD covers in this otherwise promising thread

Ditto that... Looks like this review may never materialize....what a shame....these are three great products to review head to head. I know Jon is very busy, but would have thought at least a first pass set of comments would have been posted by now.

[DanRubin]

I'm sure Jon will give us a full report when he can. We all know what it's like to be under pressure at work.

Brief tangent because this seems like a thoughtful and experienced group, someone may be able to comment on this. I am running an LIO-8 from a Mac Mini, as I expect some others of you are. I'm trying to get a read on whether there is clear superiority to using a dedicated server solution, such as an Auraliti, SOtM or the pricey Aurender, instead of the Mac. I'd get one of these boxes and try it, but I'd probably need to test it with another DAC, one that takes USB and/or one of the S/PDIF interfaces instead of Firewire. The servers may have certain usability advantages, but at this point I'd only jump if the SQ were clearly better. And then -- looping back to this thread -- there is the question of whether I can equal or better the LIO-8 with a USB, SPDIF or I2S DAC, short of spending a fortune.

[earflappin]

I'm sure Jon will give us a full report when he can. We all know what it's like to be under pressure at work.

Brief tangent because this seems like a thoughtful and experienced group, someone may be able to comment on this. I am running an LIO-8 from a Mac Mini, as I expect some others of you are. I'm trying to get a read on whether there is clear superiority to using a dedicated server solution, such as an Auraliti, SOtM or the pricey Aurender, instead of the Mac. I'd get one of these boxes and try it, but I'd probably need to test it with another DAC, one that takes USB and/or one of the S/PDIF interfaces instead of Firewire. The servers may have certain usability advantages, but at this point I'd only jump if the SQ were clearly better. And then -- looping back to this thread -- there is the question of whether I can equal or better the LIO-8 with a USB, SPDIF or I2S DAC, short of spending a fortune.

Dan, I posed that question to BJ, the LIO-8 designer, on the Metric Halo forum a while back and he basically said he knew of no reason why that would be the case. Second, Clay on the CA Forum had said he was going to experiment in this area with his LIO-8 so you might send him a PM. I did try a Firewire to Optical converter in my system (converted firewire to optical pulses and then back to firewire on the other side) that provided ground and power isolation from my Mac Mini and it made no sonic improvement IMO.

As Jon has stated, I know from when I had my BADA1 that I got a marked sound improvement when I used an Antelope DA to isolate the AES output from my Lynx AES16 card. The DA was not reclocking the AES, it was simply providing isolation. I think this, plus the sonic advantages of providing a lower jitter input to the BADA is why Berkeley developed their Alpha USB.

If you can decode his double speak.... .... PeterSt, the XXHE and NOS1 DAC developer, could possibly shed some more light on this topic. AFAIK, he uses an async interface to his NOS1 DAC and yet the tweaking of various parameters in his XXHE player software still seem to have sonic consequences.

Hope some of this rambling helps.

[CardioFitness]

JonMarsh the last man on earth to review the little Nad :Z

[JonMarsh]

Jonmarsh has hardly spent anytime at home this spring or summer- outside of Munich this week at special meetings…

-Jon

[wkhanna]

JonMarsh, the last person in the galaxy who should be disparaged for not being selflessly giving of the few precious moments of his personal time & genius to a rabble of strangers. :W

[JonMarsh]

JonMarsh, the last person in the galaxy who should be disparaged for not being selflessly giving of the few precious moments of his personal time & genius to a rabble of strangers. :W

Aw, shucks! ops:

Well, just a couple more days, then headed back. And it looks like a planned overseas trip the second week of July has been put on ice, so all I can say is what a relief! :T I hear that I've used up more than my fair share of the travel budget for the full year already, so maybe, with just a little luck, no more! And that's by the end of June, and not particularly of my choosing!

I'm feeling a need for sawdust and high resolution audio....

[PewterTA]

Jon I think you need it and well deserve it! Breathe in deep to the sweet smell of sawdust in the morning!

Though you do have me thinking about the M51 now to replace my CA 840c as my DAC... hee hee.

[bigburner]

JonMarsh the last man on earth to review the little Nad :Z

Rome wasn't built in a day.

Nigel.

[bigburner]

JonMarsh, the last person in the galaxy who should be disparaged for not being selflessly giving of the few precious moments of his personal time & genius to a rabble of strangers. :W

And here he is, revealed for the first time in his full galactic selflessness.

Nigel.

[CardioFitness]

Just a friendly push Something tells me this will be the most informative review on the nad.

[wkhanna]

Just a friendly push

That is pretty much how I perceived it, hence the :W in my post.

But I used it as an opportunity to show Jon our appreciation.