NAD M51 Direct Digital DAC

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  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 15284

    NAD M51 Direct Digital DAC

    Just ordered; should be in by Monday. These are just starting to become available in the US. I've been looking for something with above average performance but not over $2K, unlike my last two DACs, which while quite satisfactory from a performance perspective, are rather pricey for most of my friends.

    ALSO, this new piece from NAD has a number of unique features, including supporting pass through HDMI for two channel audio; this is ideal for my secondary system which is 2.1 for Blu-ray (decodes dual channel PCM), and for digital audio from a Cambridge D100 iPad/iPod interface that outputs S/PDIF and AES/EBU.

    Digital processing is done at 35 bits, and includes a remote control volume control, so the unit can act as a digital preamp, like my other two DAC's.


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    This unit uses the same PCM to PWM class D technology as the NAD M2, reviewed in Stereoophile last year. NAD has collaborated with a British semiconductor company, Diodes Zetex Ltd., which developed a novel feedback topology in which the output pulses are continuously compared with a reference to produce an error signal. This error signal is integrated, digitized (at 108MHz), and fed back, with noiseshaping, to the PWM modulator. The signal is also monitored at the output low-pass filter, to give a low output impedance. The Zetex team refers to their topology as a Direct Digital Feedback Amplifier. In the M51, this is applied at a preamp level instead of power amp level.

    In the review of the M2, they noted that the actual measured dynamic range indicated true 20 bit dynamic range at the output, which is the best dynamic range Stereophile has measured. To put that in perspective, that's -140 dB noise floor at ~ 1kHz, decreasing to about -130 dB at 10 kHz. SOTA. All the typical low level tests for DAC's looked very good:

    Linearity error with 24-bit data was negligible down to –120BFS, which, in conjunction with the superb resolution, meant that the M2's reproduction of an undithered 16-bit tone at exactly –90.31dBFS was essentially perfect (fig.10). The three DC voltage levels are clearly resolved, with superb waveform symmetry and the Gibbs Phenomenon "ringing" unobscured by noise:

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    Tested the M2's rejection of word-clock jitter by feeding a 16-bit version of the diagnostic J-Test tone from the soundcard of my test-lab PC via 15' of plastic TosLink. The resulting narrowband spectrum of the amplifier's output is shown in fig.18. The central spike representing the high-level Fs/4 tone shows very little spectral spreading at its base, and the harmonics of the Fs/192 LSB-level squarewave lie at the residual level. Other than the fact that the noise floor in the right channel (red trace) is a little higher than in the left (blue), this is state-of-the-art performance.

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    NAD M2, line output, high-resolution jitter spectrum of analog output signal, 11.025kHz at –6dBFS, sampled at 44.1kHz with LSB toggled at 229Hz, 16-bit data. Center frequency of trace, 11.025kHz; frequency range, ±3.5kHz (left channel blue, right red).

    If the M51 matches this level of performance, but in a DAC/Preamp, it should set a new value proposition bar at this price point.


    Hopefully, it actually sounds good, too. :roll: :W



    Here's NAD's blurb about the M51. Something to ponder this holiday when you get tired of egg nog and Christmas carols, and your mind wanders back to music and audio....

    I'll be reporting back during the break after I've had a chance to listen to it at some length, and may be find the time to run some tests (have one of the old CBS CD test disks, all the standard waveforms- but no Audio Precision!)


    How Direct Digital Operates
    NAD's technology uses a very powerful processing engine that operates at much higher speed and with much greater accuracy than typical Digital-to-Analogue converters. Running at 108MHz, the M51 resamples the incoming pulse code modulated (PCM) signal and converts it to a pulse width modulation signal (PWM) with a sampling rate of 844kHz. Operating in a differential mode with double precision, the M51 has state-of-the-art specifications for low noise and freedom from distortion. The extreme headroom afforded by the 35-bit architecture allows for a DSP-based volume control that does not reduce resolution. Even with 24-bit high definition signals, the output can be attenuated by 66dB (very, very quiet) before bit truncation begins.

    Pure Performance
    The incredible precision of the M51's processing engine gives music a vibrancy and transient accuracy that must be heard to be appreciated. The conversion process from PCM to PWM completely eliminates any jitter present on the incoming signal; again, offering state-of-the-art performance in this most important parameter. Due to the very high clock speed and mathematical precision of our reconstruction filters, the resulting audio signal is totally free of digital artifacts like ringing. A Pure Class A analogue stage with very low output impedance provides the perfect interface to your favourite amplifier. Also, both balanced and single-ended outputs are available.

    Next Generation Connectivity
    While the M51 includes the industry standard SPDIF, AES/EBU, Optical and Coaxial inputs, it also includes the latest USB technology called USB Audio Class 2. USB Audio Class 2 supports sample rates of 192kHz releasing the previous limitation of USB at 96kHz. Both host and device USB ports are included allowing direct connection of a PC or Mac in addition to the connection of a USB flash or hard disc memory device.

    The M51 offers two HDMI inputs and one output with video pass through. This opens up the possibility of using the M51 Direct Digital DAC as the heart of a "Video 2.0" system using the mandatory two-channel linear PCM soundtrack from Blu-ray or DVD to make a compelling two-channel high definition theatre presentation. Many symphony orchestras and some specialty music labels are also released in HD recordings on Blu-ray or DVD. The M51 is fully 3D video compatible but there is no surround sound decoding or video processing.

    More than Just a DAC
    M51 is a fully functional digital preamp with seven digital inputs and one of the world's best volume controls. As a 'preamp' it is totally noise and distortion free because all switching and volume control is done in the digital domain. There are no analogue circuits except for the Class A buffer at the output of the DAC. While input selection is available from a front panel control, volume can only be selected via remote control. The supplied IR remote also features controls for NAD's matching M50 Digital Music Player. Serial control is available via RS-232 IR and 12V trigger inputs allow the M51 to fully integrate with advanced automation systems.

    The M51 introduces many 'firsts' for the DAC product category: first to support HDMI, first to support USB Audio Class 2 with support for 192kHz, the first to use digital error correction, and the first 35-bit architecture to be found in a DAC.
    Last edited by theSven; 21 May 2023, 22:20 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
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  • Johnloudb
    Super Senior Member
    • May 2007
    • 1877

    #2
    The M51 offers two HDMI inputs and one output with video pass through. This opens up the possibility of using the M51 Direct Digital DAC as the heart of a "Video 2.0" system using the mandatory two-channel linear PCM soundtrack from Blu-ray or DVD to make a compelling two-channel high definition theatre presentation.

    That's really nice feature ... so, why hasn't anybody done this before on two channel DACs? At least I'm not aware of any others.
    John unk:

    "Why can't we all just, get along?" ~ Jack Nicholson (Mars Attacks)

    My Website (hyperacusis, tinnitus, my story)

    Comment

    • Hdale85
      Moderator Emeritus
      • Jan 2006
      • 16075

      #3
      Because there is a lot of licensing costs between HDMI and DHCP. Part of why I bet this DAC costs so much.

      Comment

      • Kal Rubinson
        Super Senior Member
        • Mar 2006
        • 2109

        #4
        Originally posted by Hdale85
        Because there is a lot of licensing costs between HDMI and DHCP. Part of why I bet this DAC costs so much.
        Also most HT systems use more than 2 channels. Small market.
        Kal Rubinson
        _______________________________
        "Music in the Round"
        Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
        http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

        Comment

        • Hdale85
          Moderator Emeritus
          • Jan 2006
          • 16075

          #5
          Yeah I was going to say most people purchasing a DAC generally are in for 2 Channel and don't have any HDMI sources anyways (CDP, TT, so on).

          Comment

          • bigburner
            Super Senior Member
            • May 2005
            • 2649

            #6
            Thank you JonMarsh. I'll read your review with great interest.

            Nigel.

            Comment

            • JonMarsh
              Mad Max Moderator
              • Aug 2000
              • 15284

              #7
              Originally posted by Hdale85
              Yeah I was going to say most people purchasing a DAC generally are in for 2 Channel and don't have any HDMI sources anyways (CDP, TT, so on).

              True, but then there are nut cases like me with a system I have for video and audio which is just 2.1, using an analog crossover, of all things (Sumo Delilah), and this could be the perfect piece of gear for that setup, unmatched if it works well as a DAC.

              I suspect the HDMI licensing is a pain, and I also suspect the chipset functionality to strip out/capture the audio and route it to the DAC isn't trivial either- not the sort of stuff that would be in the cookbook of the typical high end boutique DAC designer.

              I'm also very curious how well their USB Class 2 support works; for me, that would be coming out of a Mac Mini with Fidelia Player set at a fixed 176.4 kHz and using the Fidelia Advanced iZotope 64-bit SRC™ and MBIT+™ Dither Output options. I just love companies that don't try to re-invent the wheel but license and use the best routines available on the market.

              Image not available

              Well, I'm eager to see how this turns out. It isn't cheap, but I'm hoping it's well into the class of performance that it's previously taken $4-5K to buy.

              For reference, and those not familiar with my history, this will be compared against the Berkeley Alpha DAC and the Metric Halo LIO-8. All three will be used as their own pre map control (as currently used in the existing systems. Amplification is Cambridge Audio 840W XD amplifier, one of the nicest amps you can buy in it's price class, IMO, for all around performance (obviously a subjective call, and presuming one prefers devices staying to the neutral side of things).
              Last edited by theSven; 21 May 2023, 22:31 Sunday. Reason: Remove broken image link
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              • JonMarsh
                Mad Max Moderator
                • Aug 2000
                • 15284

                #8
                Arrived today, working on the setup

                Santa's elves were delivering a lot of stuff today, some from big Brown trucks, others in white, red and blue. :W

                The build quality is above what I was expecting at this price point; it's pretty heavy, about 14 pounds, and very solid feeling. The remote is pretty nice, but there was no manual packed; the quick start guide included download instructions for where to get the manual, and where to get a Windows USB driver; no driver needed on Macs.

                It comes with two power cords- a US style, and continental European style; the power supply is wide input range. This is the way things should be done!

                I've already started setting up a Macbook Pro to test with it, with a fresh install of Fidelia for playback software. I've also got a Tascam CD transport with AES-EBU outputs I'll try with it, as well as a Cambridge Audio iD100 dock with iPad for digital output with about 50GB of uncompressed music on it.

                The only thing feature wise that is missing that occurred to me might be nice is a headphone output, but I guess that wouldn't be hard to add. I only thought of that because I'm doing some headphone comparisons for a friend with a new set of B&W's and some Shure SRH940, which couldn't be more dissimilar physically, but I have to say the Shure's are surprisingly good- neutral, detailed, and non-fatiguing- but big @ssed! Very nicely balanced articulate bass, too- no extra emphasis, but not missing any part of it, either. These remind me more of some Stax I had ages ago than anything else I've heard in a dynamic- shame they're so big and, well, homely! :B They'll probably take a lot of abuse, though.
                Last edited by JonMarsh; 19 December 2011, 21:05 Monday.
                the AudioWorx
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                Comment

                • JonMarsh
                  Mad Max Moderator
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 15284

                  #9
                  Got it hooked up with the Tascam transport just to get some hours on it, listening to Curando Arás for now, with the Modula Xtremes and the Cambridge Audio 840W amplifier... no preamp. Just balanced out.

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                  Initial thoughts is that's it's quite dimensional and articulate on transients. Easily more than competitive with anything else I've heard in the $1K to 2K range. Later during the holiday break I'll devote a couple of evenings to comparisons with both CD and high rez material. One could clearly do a lot worse than this... handles the brass sound in cymbals very well- the highs are not papery on a good recording.
                  Last edited by theSven; 21 May 2023, 22:27 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                  the AudioWorx
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                  In Development...
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                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                  Comment

                  • JonMarsh
                    Mad Max Moderator
                    • Aug 2000
                    • 15284

                    #10
                    Well, I don't want to be all stupid and go out on a limb, but since Xmas is a bit of a silly season, why not?

                    Only been listening to CD's through the Tascam transport, and no level matched direct comparisons yet, but so far this seems the best I've heard in the $2K range. It works VERY well on complex percussion material with lots of stuff going on in the mid bass through midrange, stuff like that Aras album, also torture tests like Stanley Clarke "School Days" from the import version of "Bass-ics" (possibly the best I've ever heard that since my vinyl rig in the late 70's); very good with jazz like Hiromi Uheara, or Keith Jarret (yeah, very good piano reproduction, considering the whole transient attack and decay). Very good simultaneous macro and micro dynamics with very good harmonic integrity on instrument timbre during envelope decay. Gonna have to put on "Changes" by Keith Jarret, Gary Peacock, and Jack Dejohnnette, and see how the drum work on "Flying, Part Two" comes across.


                    Biggest negative concern is control- the remote is a bit cluttered, being as it's compatible with a couple of other pieces of gear. AND, if the remote goes down, you've got no control at all, unlike the Berkely Alpha DAC, which replicates all the important functions on the front panel. Knowing a guy who's Berkeley remote went south during the Thanksgiving break, I can appreciate the significance of that.

                    The biggest complement I think I can pay the M51, is that it draws me in and leads me to keep wanting to turn it up more- and more- hasn't done stuff that made me want to back off on the level. Detailed but non-fatiguing- unless of course the recoding is inherently fatiguing!

                    Hmm, what's next, I think some Jacque Loussier is in order!
                    the AudioWorx
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                    In Development...
                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
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                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                    Comment

                    • JonMarsh
                      Mad Max Moderator
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 15284

                      #11
                      DAC Porn

                      this is what I was listening to much of yesterday...

                      In the spirit of a picture is worth a thousand words (and is often similarly more interesting.)

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                      The M51 should get a lot more playback time today, I also found another cache of good CD's I had in a closet at home- (CD's are mostly put away to use the music server setup instead.)

                      As I have some wood assembly work to do today, as well as some Xmas food shopping, I may or may not get to configuring the libraries for the Macbook Pro to test with this. Had another middle of the night two hour conference call (yeah, I'm theoretically on vacation, but some important stuff is going on, including with product definition/development for one of our biggest US customers), and just got off another call at 6:30 AM this morning; one scheduled now for tomorrow morning, too... Another down to the wire race for the holidays!

                      Be sure to enjoy your holidays, and do it safely!
                      Last edited by theSven; 21 May 2023, 22:21 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                      the AudioWorx
                      Natalie P
                      M8ta
                      Modula Neo DCC
                      Modula MT XE
                      Modula Xtreme
                      Isiris
                      Wavecor Ardent

                      SMJ
                      Minerva Monitor
                      Calliope
                      Ardent D

                      In Development...
                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                      Obi-Wan
                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                      Modula PWB
                      Calliope CC Supreme
                      Natalie P Ultra
                      Natalie P Supreme
                      Janus BP1 Sub


                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                      Comment

                      • wkhanna
                        Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                        • Jan 2006
                        • 5673

                        #12
                        Jacque Loussier, Keith Jarret, Jack DeJohnnette & Stanley Clarke......... ;x(
                        Our eclectic tastes are eerily similar! 8O

                        Great stuff for wringing out a new source component, too.
                        _


                        Bill

                        Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                        ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                        FinleyAudio

                        Comment

                        • Chris D
                          Moderator Emeritus
                          • Dec 2000
                          • 16877

                          #13
                          Very cool, my man. Very cool.
                          CHRIS

                          Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
                          - Pleasantville

                          Comment

                          • JonMarsh
                            Mad Max Moderator
                            • Aug 2000
                            • 15284

                            #14
                            On the third day of M51...

                            Busy doing lots of errands and some speaker building work- not much time for listening, or multi-tasking between listening and other local chores. Today should be a little different...

                            So for now.....

                            Now Playing:

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                            Wish You Were Here, SBM version (Super Bit Mapping)

                            OK, to be strictly fair, I had never gotten around to loading this SBM version onto the music server, and haven't heard it on the Modula Xtremes before. Regardless, after listening to this now, I'm wondering why they've been bringing out new remasters, except as a way of re-releasing and getting attention? Plus this is out of print, a long, LONG time ago.

                            Excellent sound on the big Modula's, at one time I would have been slack jawed to hear this disk sound this good in digital. I do have the SACD Hybrid version of this book marked in my Amazon wish list- could it be any better? in ripped SACD format that I use? (24/176.4 kHz). We'll see, eventually. If there's anything wrong here, I can't lay it at the feet of the M51.

                            That's something else I've had no time for this year, my SACD extraction work.

                            More pleasant surprises...

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                            Last edited by theSven; 21 May 2023, 22:22 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                            the AudioWorx
                            Natalie P
                            M8ta
                            Modula Neo DCC
                            Modula MT XE
                            Modula Xtreme
                            Isiris
                            Wavecor Ardent

                            SMJ
                            Minerva Monitor
                            Calliope
                            Ardent D

                            In Development...
                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                            Obi-Wan
                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                            Modula PWB
                            Calliope CC Supreme
                            Natalie P Ultra
                            Natalie P Supreme
                            Janus BP1 Sub


                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                            Comment

                            • Ovation
                              Super Senior Member
                              • Sep 2004
                              • 2202

                              #15
                              You're ripping SACDs? Can't be an easy process (though I am intrigued). I have the SACD of Wish You Were Here and I find it superb--though I listen to it in MCH 9 times out of ten (can't really speak to its 2 channel presentation).

                              Comment

                              • wkhanna
                                Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                                • Jan 2006
                                • 5673

                                #16
                                This is getting creepy, John 8O
                                I've had that Acoustic Alchemy CD for years.
                                First found them in the early 90's.
                                _


                                Bill

                                Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                                ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                                FinleyAudio

                                Comment

                                • JonMarsh
                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                  • Aug 2000
                                  • 15284

                                  #17
                                  Late 80's for me. Great group, one of my favorites also for fall asleep or wake up music.
                                  the AudioWorx
                                  Natalie P
                                  M8ta
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                                  SMJ
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                                  Calliope
                                  Ardent D

                                  In Development...
                                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                  Obi-Wan
                                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                  Modula PWB
                                  Calliope CC Supreme
                                  Natalie P Ultra
                                  Natalie P Supreme
                                  Janus BP1 Sub


                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                  Comment

                                  • JonMarsh
                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                    • Aug 2000
                                    • 15284

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Ovation
                                    You're ripping SACDs? Can't be an easy process (though I am intrigued). I have the SACD of Wish You Were Here and I find it superb--though I listen to it in MCH 9 times out of ten (can't really speak to its 2 channel presentation).
                                    It involves a custom modified player and recording in real time into a FireWire interface using Wave Editor on a Mac. I'll link a description later- short on time at the moment!
                                    the AudioWorx
                                    Natalie P
                                    M8ta
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                                    Isiris
                                    Wavecor Ardent

                                    SMJ
                                    Minerva Monitor
                                    Calliope
                                    Ardent D

                                    In Development...
                                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                    Obi-Wan
                                    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                    Modula PWB
                                    Calliope CC Supreme
                                    Natalie P Ultra
                                    Natalie P Supreme
                                    Janus BP1 Sub


                                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                    Comment

                                    • JonMarsh
                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                      • Aug 2000
                                      • 15284

                                      #19
                                      Re SACD's

                                      Originally posted by evilskillit
                                      This is an interesting project, coming up on two months later, any new developments?
                                      The Chancellor "re-prioritized" my activities over the holidays, putting an Imperial priority class 1 effort behind an electronics project, just recently completed.



                                      This Sith sponsored project modified a terran Pioneer DV79AVi disk player, enabling it to output 24bit/176.4 kHz PCM on a custom SPDIF output when playing SACD disks (high resolution PCM down converted from DSD, using a custom processor with 37 bit math and 48 bit accumulators), with Imperial Sector decryption technology originally developed by the electronics division of Seinar Industries to intercept encrypted rebel communications.

                                      Audiopriase Vanity Board Description

                                      This effort proved to be more taxing and time consuming than anticipated, requiring visual magnification aids and specialized soldering equipment, but the Chancellor appears to be most satisfied with the results- it is rumored he has a large collection of single layer SACDs imported from the Terran Federation at great cost, which he plans now to use in the Executor Star Destroyer and the Imperial shuttle audio system after conversion and storage in Sith Holocrons.

                                      Importing successfully does require the use of a S/PDIF receiver system which ignores the SCM copy protection management bit in the bitstream- the RME Fireface fulfills that requirement, with Firewire interface to a Mac for realtime recording.

                                      A newer available solution is a multi-channel modification for the Oppo BDP93, which replaces it's standard output board. no experience with this one yet, but it may be much easier to install.


                                      Vanity 93

                                      OTOH, links for technical support for installation and direct sales are somewhat hidden currently, and none visible for the new board. In the past, they primarily offered a conversion process, but I purchased two Vanity boards from them.
                                      Last edited by theSven; 21 May 2023, 22:23 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                                      the AudioWorx
                                      Natalie P
                                      M8ta
                                      Modula Neo DCC
                                      Modula MT XE
                                      Modula Xtreme
                                      Isiris
                                      Wavecor Ardent

                                      SMJ
                                      Minerva Monitor
                                      Calliope
                                      Ardent D

                                      In Development...
                                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                      Obi-Wan
                                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                      Modula PWB
                                      Calliope CC Supreme
                                      Natalie P Ultra
                                      Natalie P Supreme
                                      Janus BP1 Sub


                                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                      Comment

                                      • JonMarsh
                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                        • Aug 2000
                                        • 15284

                                        #20
                                        Now playing on the M51...

                                        The Stanley Clarke Band

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                                        This is a very fine album musically and sonically if you're into the electric Stanley Clark- also features Hiromi on piano
                                        Last edited by theSven; 21 May 2023, 22:23 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
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                                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                        Comment

                                        • JonMarsh
                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                          • Aug 2000
                                          • 15284

                                          #21
                                          vocals and acoustic instruments

                                          Something a little obscure from the late nineties...


                                          The Poor Clares: Songs for Midwinter

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                                          Cajun Irish, they're often self described. Very natural unprocessed recording. And nice for this time of year!
                                          Last edited by theSven; 21 May 2023, 22:24 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
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                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                          Comment

                                          • JonMarsh
                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                            • Aug 2000
                                            • 15284

                                            #22
                                            And something completely different...

                                            Guilty pleasure....

                                            Actually, the vinyl version was the one with real magic. Have tended to be disappointed with the digital releases.... but...

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                                            This is the best I recall hearing the Super Bit Mapping Sony Mastersound version ever sounding- by a substantial margin. Sounds like it's cut from a whole piece of cloth, and has whetted my appetite to hear the 2006 remasters, when Tom Scholz got 24 bit transfers of the original masters and went to work from the ground up- he doesn't like digital, and from published materials, I don't think he's ever heard the SBM or DSD versions of Boston on a good digital system. Of course, some feel that is an oxymoron. I'm getting a lot closer now to what the vinyl did back in the late 70's.

                                            That is what I felt upon hearing this on the BADA, but my impression today is that the NAD M51 takes it a significant step further. Whether I'm kidding myself or not, remains to be seen- need to get more work done here before I'll be ready for a serious shoot out. Still, the more different disks I play, the more I like this piece of gear, especially at this price point.
                                            Last edited by theSven; 21 May 2023, 22:24 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
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                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                            Comment

                                            • JonMarsh
                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                              • Aug 2000
                                              • 15284

                                              #23
                                              Gems of different natures...

                                              Keith Jarrett, "Changes"


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                                              Flying Part Two, especially :B



                                              Ambrosia, Ambrosia (Produced by Alan Parsons)


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                                              Haven't heard the midrange instruments like keyboards and voices sound this good since the "V" word version. :W
                                              Last edited by theSven; 21 May 2023, 22:25 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
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                                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                              Comment

                                              • wkhanna
                                                Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                                                • Jan 2006
                                                • 5673

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                Haven't heard the midrange instruments like keyboards and voices sound this good since the "V" word version. :W
                                                I know what you mean John.
                                                That is why I am so glad I still have my Grandparents "Victrolla".
                                                It’s so important to have a true reference of pure audio reproduction on hand when evaluating newer technologies. :W


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                                                _


                                                Bill

                                                Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                                                ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                                                FinleyAudio

                                                Comment

                                                • bigburner
                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                  • May 2005
                                                  • 2649

                                                  #25
                                                  Bill, is the Victrolla seamlessly integrated with the cordless phone?

                                                  Nigel.

                                                  Comment

                                                  • wkhanna
                                                    Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                                                    • Jan 2006
                                                    • 5673

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by bigburner
                                                    Bill, is the Victrolla seamlessly integrated with the cordless phone?

                                                    Nigel.
                                                    Not really sure, Nigle. :huh:
                                                    Being the curator of all things analog that I am, I thought that ‘thing’ on top was my wife’s Ipod dock :W
                                                    _


                                                    Bill

                                                    Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                                                    ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                                                    FinleyAudio

                                                    Comment

                                                    • JonMarsh
                                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                      • 15284

                                                      #27
                                                      Yeah, complete system integration is always the toughest part!
                                                      the AudioWorx
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                                                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                      Comment

                                                      • bigburner
                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                        • May 2005
                                                        • 2649

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                        Yeah, complete system integration is always the toughest part!
                                                        I think Bill should invest in an Enterprise Service Bus to simplify the integration.

                                                        Bill, the attached diagram will explain it all.

                                                        The beauty of this architecture is that you can easily integrate a new device like NAD M51 Direct Digital DAC with your Victrolla and your cordless phone / iPod dock.

                                                        Nigel.
                                                        Attached Files

                                                        Comment

                                                        • wkhanna
                                                          Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                                                          • Jan 2006
                                                          • 5673

                                                          #29
                                                          Hey, that sounds great. The best part is my wife works for Pittsburgh Port Authority Transit. One of the perks is her family bus pass, so we should be able to ride that Enterprise Bus thing for free!
                                                          _


                                                          Bill

                                                          Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                                                          ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                                                          FinleyAudio

                                                          Comment

                                                          • JonMarsh
                                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                            • 15284

                                                            #30
                                                            Back to our regularly scheduled programming...

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                                                            Laurie Anderson- Strange Angels

                                                            A blast from the past - just the original 1989 CD, but with a pellucid clarity to voices and midrange instruments, and very well defined percussion and bass guitar that would make me swear this was remastered.

                                                            :T
                                                            Last edited by theSven; 21 May 2023, 22:33 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
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                                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                            Comment

                                                            • JonMarsh
                                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                                              • Aug 2000
                                                              • 15284

                                                              #31
                                                              Now and then...

                                                              I hear tonality and clarity that I just don't expect from CD, including an integration of timber and dynamics that usually gives the medium fits.

                                                              So pardon these occasional posts when something really catches my ear.

                                                              Jeff Beck, Wired, Japanese Import, DSD mastering

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                                                              The music, well, it's Beck, so you certainly know what you're getting, and if you're a Jeff Beck fan like me, you're digging it, even from 1976.

                                                              This album was produced by George Martin (yes, he of Beatles fame), and Martin has had production duties for an awful lot of Beck's albums since, to good effect.

                                                              I assume when they say DSD mastering, they've done conversion from the analog masters to DSD for digital (SACD format), then SBM down conversion to make this CD version. Let me tell you, the 1976 mixing methods and balance sounds a little quaint in 2012 terms, BUT, this sucker is crystal clear, especially the remarkable cymbal tone on the NAD M51 DAC on some of the cuts with Narada Michael Walden on drums. Especially "Sophie". The contrast with some of the other cuts is remarkable - such as Blue Wind with Jan Hammer on drums and synthesizer.

                                                              There's something this DAC does that I really like, a clarity and lack of "confusion" or edge, while being very detailed and clear. I could get used to this.
                                                              Last edited by theSven; 21 May 2023, 22:33 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                                                              the AudioWorx
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                                                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                              Comment

                                                              • kvardas
                                                                Senior Member
                                                                • Dec 2005
                                                                • 125

                                                                #32
                                                                Why down convert to PCM from DSD and not just feed DAC directly via DSD?



                                                                Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                                Re SACD's

                                                                The Chancellor "re-prioritized" my activities over the holidays, putting an Imperial priority class 1 effort behind an electronics project, just recently completed.



                                                                This Sith sponsored project modified a terran Pioneer DV79AVi disk player, enabling it to output 24bit/176.4 kHz PCM on a custom SPDIF output when playing SACD disks (high resolution PCM down converted from DSD, using a custom processor with 37 bit math and 48 bit accumulators), with Imperial Sector decryption technology originally developed by the electronics division of Seinar Industries to intercept encrypted rebel communications.

                                                                Audiopriase Vanity Board Description

                                                                This effort proved to be more taxing and time consuming than anticipated, requiring visual magnification aids and specialized soldering equipment, but the Chancellor appears to be most satisfied with the results- it is rumored he has a large collection of single layer SACDs imported from the Terran Federation at great cost, which he plans now to use in the Executor Star Destroyer and the Imperial shuttle audio system after conversion and storage in Sith Holocrons.

                                                                Importing successfully does require the use of a S/PDIF receiver system which ignores the SCM copy protection management bit in the bitstream- the RME Fireface fulfills that requirement, with Firewire interface to a Mac for realtime recording.

                                                                A newer available solution is a multi-channel modification for the Oppo BDP93, which replaces it's standard output board. no experience with this one yet, but it may be much easier to install.


                                                                Vanity 93

                                                                OTOH, links for technical support for installation and direct sales are somewhat hidden currently, and none visible for the new board. In the past, they primarily offered a conversion process, but I purchased two Vanity boards from them.
                                                                Last edited by theSven; 21 May 2023, 22:28 Sunday. Reason: Update image location

                                                                Comment

                                                                • Kal Rubinson
                                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                                  • Mar 2006
                                                                  • 2109

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by kvardas
                                                                  Why down convert to PCM from DSD and not just feed DAC directly via DSD?
                                                                  One converts (not necessarily down-converts) to PCM because all necessary DSP requires it.
                                                                  Kal Rubinson
                                                                  _______________________________
                                                                  "Music in the Round"
                                                                  Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                                                                  http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • JonMarsh
                                                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                                                    • Aug 2000
                                                                    • 15284

                                                                    #34
                                                                    As Kal alludes to, there are almost NO DSD DAC's.

                                                                    Anytime you play a hybrid SACD on a conventional player and output over S/PDIF, you're just getting the CD layer, which is usually pretty good as RB goes, but still, that's all it is.

                                                                    DSD native is very high sample rate with only a few bits of depth defining the delta V. The math for the native DSD signal works out pretty well for conversion to 24/176.4- quad rate sampling and a much greater bit depth, though the noise shaping on DSD makes that point moot in the area above 30 kHz or so.

                                                                    The point is not feeding this out to a DAC directly, (which can be done, but that means the modded Pioneer is a playback transport, which is NOT my intent). The point is recording the digital output (yeah, just like recording vinyl onto open reel or cassette, and then using Wave Editor to create the tracks and convert from native Wave editor format at 176.4/32 to filtered output AIFF files at 176.4. Wave Editor uses 32 bit file formats and processes from that to assure headroom for calculations.

                                                                    The resulting AIFF files are convenient to play back with the player of choice on a music server system, whether Mac, PC, or Linux based. Conventional transport is out of the picture at that point. I don't use disk transports at home very much, except to have the Tascam on hand for when a friend brings over a disk. My SACD playback flow is very byzantine by normal audio standards, as it involved A/D of the Marantz player in the LIO-8, followed by playback through the LIO-8. The Marantz has enough coloration of it's own that it dominates the sound.
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                                                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • Kal Rubinson
                                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                                      • Mar 2006
                                                                      • 2109

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                                      As Kal alludes to, there are almost NO DSD DAC's.
                                                                      While that may be true, it is not what I was alluding to. I was speaking of the necessity to convert DSD to PCM in order to do any DSP in a player or processor, regardless of the capabilities of the DAC.
                                                                      Kal Rubinson
                                                                      _______________________________
                                                                      "Music in the Round"
                                                                      Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                                                                      http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • JonMarsh
                                                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                                                        • Aug 2000
                                                                        • 15284

                                                                        #36
                                                                        OK- understood- I didn't get your reference to doing DSP- Quite true- that's one of the difficulties of a DSD workflow setup, you can't do EQ or other processing on it without conversion back to PCM. Of course, depending on what you're going for, and the recording technique, that's not a bad thing, if nothing needs "fixing". Life is rarely that simple, though.
                                                                        the AudioWorx
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                                                                        In Development...
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                                                                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • kvardas
                                                                          Senior Member
                                                                          • Dec 2005
                                                                          • 125

                                                                          #37
                                                                          I am building a DAC that accepts DSD. I am thinking of modifying a Denon 1920 player to extract the DSD and PCM, as shown in the link below:

                                                                          Here are some snaps of my Denon DVD-1920 mod: Backpanel of the player with the cat cable connected to the Buffalo32: http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y196/Boombastix/denon/dvd1920/DSC05786.jpg...

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • JonMarsh
                                                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                                            • 15284

                                                                            #38
                                                                            That's pretty good!

                                                                            A big reason I went the way I did was wanting to be able to record it and put on the music server.

                                                                            Not exactly a hand held step by step route, though, is it?

                                                                            Key to whether the route I took works is the digital filter concepts and conversion used- I had some e-mail exchanges with Pavel about this. BTW, they've got a forum up now on AudioPraise. Might be interesting to check out.

                                                                            The trouble with tribbles, though, is just how good is the DSD work of any specific DAC or player? I've had some expensive SACD players, fairly highly regarded, all of which reportedly respond to mods like high stability clocks, power supplies, etc. Would rather not have to go that route- takes a lot of time. The sound I'm currently getting with the DSD converted to PCM and running through fairly good DAC's, like the BADA, MH LIO-8, and now the M51, is much better than the SACD players I own in the $3500 - $7K range. But those are "pure" DSD? Yes, but I think it's definitely as much the quality of the implementation of one or the other. It seems to me there's more competitive work being done with PCM DAC's.

                                                                            OTOH, do report back on how things develop and turn out for you!
                                                                            the AudioWorx
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                                                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • kvardas
                                                                              Senior Member
                                                                              • Dec 2005
                                                                              • 125

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Well, I will modify my Denon 1920 for the DSD tapping.

                                                                              I also will get a hold of another SACD and intall the Audiopraise unit and then compare.

                                                                              Can you send me the link to how you installed the audiopraise unit. I recall seeing it on another thread sometime ago.

                                                                              Thanks

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • JonMarsh
                                                                                Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                • Aug 2000
                                                                                • 15284

                                                                                #40
                                                                                I'll find that some time in the next few days- really busy right now with some work stuff.
                                                                                the AudioWorx
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                                                                                In Development...
                                                                                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
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                                                                                Natalie P Supreme
                                                                                Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • Johnloudb
                                                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                                                  • May 2007
                                                                                  • 1877

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                                                  Wish You Were Here, SBM version (Super Bit Mapping)

                                                                                  OK, to be strictly fair, I had never gotten around to loading this SBM version onto the music server, and haven't heard it on the Modula Xtremes before. Regardless, after listening to this now, I'm wondering why they've been bringing out new remasters, except as a way of re-releasing and getting attention? Plus this is out of print, a long, LONG time ago.
                                                                                  I recently got the SACD of "Wish You Were Here," and I have to say I'm disappointed in it. It sounds too smooth and compressed in comparison to the original CD release I have. I read a magazine review of the immersion box set ($120) which contains the high resolution (24/96) 2009 James Guthrie remaster (same as SACD) as well as the original 1975 stereo mix, also high resolution, along with other mixes on DVD.

                                                                                  Anyway, they said that the original stereo mix sounded the best. They seemed less disappointed in the Guthrie remaster than I am, but said it sounded compressed.

                                                                                  I hope they release the Bluray separately, eventually. I know Sony wants everyone to shell out $120 though. Not gonna do it!

                                                                                  John
                                                                                  John unk:

                                                                                  "Why can't we all just, get along?" ~ Jack Nicholson (Mars Attacks)

                                                                                  My Website (hyperacusis, tinnitus, my story)

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • JonMarsh
                                                                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                    • Aug 2000
                                                                                    • 15284

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Thanks for your comments John- but that may indicate that the DSD mastered SuperBitMapped version may be the best one out there- it certainly gives me pause for thought, as the notion of a more compressed version doesn't appeal at all- just something to pretty it up and make it more palatable on Mid-Fi gear? While calling it high resolution? I dunno...


                                                                                    In other news, I've been corresponding with an interesting Aussie about the M51- he's really a vocal fanatic (my words- and I mean that in a good way), and that led me to throw on a few things that might be a bit of a challenge in that area -

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                                                                                    This Sheryl Crow album particularly surprised- I don't remember it being that much of a Hi-Fi marvel the last time I listened to it, but I have to say the vocal reproduction in particular did something special for me- of course, it has to be captured well, which often isn't the case for live. Standouts for me in the large cast of singers were Crowe herself, Chrissie Hynde (she of Pretenders fame- voice still as sexy as ever!), Stevie Nicks, and even Eric Claption! Clapton!?! He and Sheryl did a duet on White Room, with Sheryl taking Bruce's parts, and it was pretty convincing, besides being a fun performance and blast from the past (didn't everyone play "White Room" in their high school age rock band? I sure did...) It didn't hurt that Sheryl's drummer did a real standup job on it, either!


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                                                                                    This was a deliberate choice to check out, rather than the accidental discovery that Live in Central Park was. Yeah, I have the Ultadisc II version of Manhattan Transfer "Extensions", and I can't tell you how it compares with the "standard" MoFi, or the standard label disk, but this one sounds real sweet on the M51. There's a character regarding separating of voices and instruments in the same frequency bands that this piece of gear seems to do exceptionally well. Yes, I was quite happy with the reproduction on this. Of course, I suspect those big Accuton midranges have a little to do with that, too!


                                                                                    Now I'm itching to finish getting my Macbook pro setup with the new SSD, and also finish the track extraction of my Telarc Carmina Burana, and also the Mahattan Christmas album, and see how they sound on this rig through the async USB.
                                                                                    Last edited by theSven; 21 May 2023, 22:25 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                                                                                    the AudioWorx
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                                                                                    • Johnloudb
                                                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                                                      • May 2007
                                                                                      • 1877

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                                                      that may indicate that the DSD mastered SuperBitMapped version may be the best one out there- it certainly gives me pause for thought, as the notion of a more compressed version doesn't appeal at all-
                                                                                      Yeah, it might be. I see it's available used to. I've always been happy with the sonics of the original CD, and I really can't tolerate dynamic compression, just sounds too lifeless.

                                                                                      The article said the 1975 original LP is the best ... I guess that depends if a person likes LP or not. So, I just picked up a near mint original 1975 LP. I'll be selling the SACD.

                                                                                      Glad to see you also like Manhattan Transfer. We have quite a bit of their stuff.
                                                                                      John unk:

                                                                                      "Why can't we all just, get along?" ~ Jack Nicholson (Mars Attacks)

                                                                                      My Website (hyperacusis, tinnitus, my story)

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                                                                                      • Ovation
                                                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                                                        • Sep 2004
                                                                                        • 2202

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Of course, the SACD of Wish You Were Here offers something that no previous release offered--a discrete MCH mix. That alone makes it a keeper for me. Can't speak to other versions in 2 channel, as I've never owned the album in any format until now, but I think the MCH mix is significant enough to warrant a new release of this.

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                                                                                        • JonMarsh
                                                                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                          • Aug 2000
                                                                                          • 15284

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Well, you have good points, Ovation, and if there's a solid two channel mix, I'll just probably have to pick it up and compare and decide if it's worth extracting in two channel, as I don't listen to multi-channel at home.

                                                                                          *******************

                                                                                          What the heck, bit the bullet and ordered the SACD!
                                                                                          the AudioWorx
                                                                                          Natalie P
                                                                                          M8ta
                                                                                          Modula Neo DCC
                                                                                          Modula MT XE
                                                                                          Modula Xtreme
                                                                                          Isiris
                                                                                          Wavecor Ardent

                                                                                          SMJ
                                                                                          Minerva Monitor
                                                                                          Calliope
                                                                                          Ardent D

                                                                                          In Development...
                                                                                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                                          Obi-Wan
                                                                                          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                                          Modula PWB
                                                                                          Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                                          Natalie P Ultra
                                                                                          Natalie P Supreme
                                                                                          Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                          Comment

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