AK4490 Dac El Cheapo

[Renron]

How on Earth can this even be possible? A DAC for $35 ? Shipped!
I'm thinking of buying it just to see if it works. Damn the case is worth $35 bucks. No power supply granted, but whoa. For an El Cheapo like me it's almost too good to pass up.

http://www.thanksbuyer.com/finished-su4-ak4490-dac-decoder-support-coaxial-optical-output-usb-192k-24bit-41244?sort=p.price&order=ASC&page=2

What do you think?
Ron

[Renron]

I ordered this one instead; In case SU4 AK4490EQ+AK4118+XMOS USB DAC 192K 24BIT Optical fiber coaxial input

http://www.ebay.com/itm/281964890252

$82 ................pushed the upper limit of my comfort zone.
Ron

[wkhanna]

interesting....
i wonder how this would/does compare to the Rasberry Pi 3?

anxious to hear your impressions once you have spent some time with it.

[Renron]

Wkhanna,
I'm building a Sigma II linear power supply for it, hoping it will help. We'll see. I don't have anything to compare it to, except my DvD player.
It seems to have a very good set of chips in it, I may be surprised by it.
Ron

[Evil Twin]

That's an amazing price - do let us know how it sounds. If I was looking for a budget DAC I would start first at Schitt. My experience with USB DACs is that isolation and the internal clocks are really critical to good performance. It is hard to imagine how to do that well at that price point- my personal experience and reference standard for USB interfaces is the Alpha USB, and the new Mutec. And that is just an interface- the DAC is external. Putting them all in one box can be problematical, depending on what one is hoping to achieve. The AURALiC Vega has a good built in USB implementation, but it sounds better on USB using the Berkeley Alpha USB ahead of it, and running on the AES/EBU input.

YMMV, and of course there is the bang for the buck. In that area, I think one should Schitt or get off the pot...

[wkhanna]

i started with the Schiit Bifrost years ago when it first came out coupled with the Music Fidelity V-Link.
currently running a Schiit Gungnir which i have modified using some Mu-Metal shielding on the power x-former along with adding heat sinks on the power transistors.

it gives my friend Dan's (PewterTA) NAD M51 (which is also modified) a good run for its money, delivering most all the qualities of the NAD albeit with just tad less detail.

V happy living with my schiiit.....

[Renron]

Ain't no schiit like yer own schiit. I saw that Bob bought the Schiit Modi II uber Dac. They can be had for about $150. I'm in just a little over 1/2 of that price. Even if it doesn't work better than my Old Tired Denon DVD1600, I can use the case for some project in the future and not cry too much. Heck, if it works, I may even send it to Bob for a direct comparison with his Schiit.
I know the Modi II uber is a great DAC for the price,
Bob said at some point he was going to upgrade his Dac, maybe I can get a good deal from him when the time comes, if I find mine un-listenable or DOA.
I should have it next week and (hopefully) have the Ardent TS finished.
I'd be afraid to send it to the dark Lord for testing as it may end up in the Death Star's Garbage Compactor 3263827.

I also purchased a 1.5M Chord USB SilverPlus cable on sale for ~$67. It has pretty good reviews on the interwebs. At least I'll have a decent USB cable.


I'm honored that both of you replied to this semi silly post / thread.
Ron

[Renron]

It arrived!

It got here yesterday and I couldn't wait to open it up this morning and take a look at the insides. Because I can.:demon:
Now i'm not really sure what I was expecting, I've been burned by things from China before. Sometimes ya just get Lucky:T

For starters, it has a real AKM 4490EQ chipset and a real Xmos U8 v1.1 daughter board. Whoa, most excellent! (Ted's Voice)
Nichicon and Elna capacitors too. :E
The output op Amp is an OP 275, it's even on a 8 pin chip socket. Just like a ripe fruit waiting to be plucked and exchanged.:rofl:

Solder joints are clean and things are Tidy inside.
I wish my speakers were finished so I can try this out and give a review. Maybe next week.
Enjoy the photos and tell me what you think.
Ron

[wkhanna]

cool.
thanks for the pics, i will let The Maestro make any comments relating the electronics as such things are not in anywhere near my wheelhouse of expertise.

[Evil Twin]

It certainly looks like it's worth what you paid and more, but as usual, the acid test is the listening... good luck with that.

I am expecting a new to me, but used preamp to arrive today. It will go on the bench first, to see if it fulfills its reputation...

[Renron]

Yesterday I removed the OP275 and replaced it with a brown dog containing two OP627. This changed the entire sound from flat to 3D. I'm very happy with it.
I've tried the coax input and it sounds great, finally figured out the USB Xmos drivers / foobar2000 and downloaded an old favorite David Bowie, Ziggy Stardust.
Even though it's 96/24 it sounds flat and lifeless. I don't think it's the USB cable, it's a brand new Schiit PYST from Amazon.
I've listened to some CDs that are Glorious (Alison Krauss) and others that are lifeless and flat.
If it's not the bitrate what makes a good recording ? How do we differentiate between good and poor before purchasing a Hi-Rez download?
Just wondering outloud.

Ron

[Renron]

I've upgraded the Op Amp to the LME 49720NA dual 8 leg. Sounds pretty good for the price.
I've also changed the "driver" software on the laptop to the Extremely Japanese Bug Head program.
Bug Head made such a difference I almost fell out of my chair compared to Foobar 2000. HOLY COW!!!
Here's a link to download and test for yourself. It's FREE too. HoRah.
Download the Beta 2 version. It's gotta be better than the beta 1 version, right?
Make sure to run "All Core Any Cure" twice, before starting BH / Infinity Blade.
Learning the program is like reading a Japanese Graphic Novel.............in Japanese. The options are in English but What does Kitty 1,2,3 or 4 mean? I dunno. But it sounds Fantastic! :T

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B-HZf3I4Da03Nng0Zk9KTGNlT2c

Ron

[wkhanna]

cool!
i love to see folks rolling op amps
FYI LINK & LINK

curious about the Foobar thing, though.......

Dan (PewterTA) & i have been optimizing Foobar for years & have yet to hear anything noticeably better.....
how did you have it configured?

[JonMarsh]

Tongue somewhat in cheek... how much can you upgrade this DAC's performance?

Ron, typically a low cost DAC like this will be pretty sensitive to the quality of the embedded clock signal on the incoming signal, and to common mode noise (influenced more by the complete system configuration, especially power supplies- the more isolation on the DAC input, the better.

I suspect you might get the ultimate performance out of this by using something like a microRendu as a network based render device, with it's USB output that uses linear regulators for the USB supply.



Then, too, putting an Alpha USB between the microRendu and feeing the coaxial input to the DAC might also give positive results.



That's sitting on top of a 12" MacBook, itself a rather small computer. The Sonic Transporter really is cute in person.

While we're at it, be sure to use a linear supply for both the DAC and the microRendu.

oh, and for feeding the micrRendu over the internet, you could use your PC in DLNA mode, but what I'd really suggest would be spending a very few more bucks and getting a Sonic Transporter also from Small Green Computer, designed as a music server (ARM), and a small SSD USB drive (or the internal drive option; though I prefer the external, because it's so easy to unplug and load up new files on my Mac Pro).





It supports a number of software platforms, but I ended up settling on Roon, as I really like the interface and supplementary data it provides, and it scales up in functionality on an iPad Pro used as the controller interface.




Now, by now, I think you've probably spotted the fly in the ointment- all of these are VERY worthwhile updates to improve the performance of your AK4490 DAC, but in the process, we've rendered the purchase price of the DAC as a minor footnote in the overall scheme of things...


OTOH, if you want an AK4490 without quite as much DIY involved, maybe a Phison Preamp/DAC PD2 is the way to go, from Denmark (you won't see these in your local Best Buy) has a nice multiplying DAC volume control, too.


Plenty of Jonmarsh approved balanced connectors, and it actually comes with and uses an Apple remote!

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/phison/2.html

OK, now I've gotten my weekend foolishness out- I'm running a bit behind schedule, and worked all weekend.

[BobEllis]

I just found this thread. Good find, Ron. Your DAC uses the same chip as the Schiit Modi 2 Uber. Of course, it's in the implementation. I bought the Modi multibit. Hopefully a step up. I haven't opened it to see what I might be able to do with opamps.

I took a look at the software you suggested and couldn't come up with a configuration that indicated less than 50% sound quality degradation. I decided to leave it alone for now since my PC is a bit flaky at the moment - seems to be various driver conflicts as each update fixes one part and breaks another. I wonder if the difference you heard in players was due to BH using ASIO drivers instead of something that lets Windows get involved.

[Renron]

I've built a nice external linear power supply for El Cheapo and I believe it makes a difference. Concerning Clocking, do I understand correctly that the USB cable passes the signal then it is re-clocked by the DAC clock? Do the other types of connections (cables) also get re-clocked? Co-ax / Toslink ? Is one preferred over the others?

Bob,
I dunno if the AISO drivers made a difference over the Win10 drivers. Out of my realm of experience / expertise.
BH is very difficult to configure. How do you know there was 50% degradation? In my case it was exactly the opposite, it gave life back to the music. Interesting.......

[wkhanna]

info on iFi PW supply:

https://www.musicdirect.com/equipment/ifi-ipower-outboard-supply

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2016/04/13/ifi-ipower-for-the-raspberry-streamer/

http://www.stereophile.com/content/music-round-77#43EkmeeS9QguAEBw.97

Concerning Clocking, do I understand correctly that the USB cable passes the signal then it is re-clocked by the DAC clock?

as i understand it, most all dacs do some level of re-clocking.
how well depends on the actual clock/crystal precision.

I dunno if the AISO drivers made a difference over the Win10 drivers.

Dan (PewterTA) & i both have the best results with WASPI Event settings.
however, this may be system dependent, therefore you need try them all to find the one(s) that work best.

I bought the Modi multibit. Hopefully a step up. I haven't opened it to see what I might be able to do with opamps.

personally, i would not bother swapping out op amps in a Schiit design.
Jason & Matt seem V picky about the performance vs $ on their designs, & they implement for performance.
jmho, ymmv

[Alaric]

my PC is a bit flaky at the moment - seems to be various driver conflicts as each update fixes one part and breaks another

That sounds like Windows 10.

[BobEllis]

Ron, the sound degradation was displayed on the right side of the setup page.

Bill, you're probably right. Especially if they're SMD.

Yes, Lee, Win10. Only a few months from a clean install. I don't care much for iOS 10, either. What is it with 10s?

[JonMarsh]

info on iFi PW supply:

https://www.musicdirect.com/equipment/ifi-ipower-outboard-supply

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2016/04/13/ifi-ipower-for-the-raspberry-streamer/

http://www.stereophile.com/content/music-round-77#43EkmeeS9QguAEBw.97

as i understand it, most all dacs do some level of re-clocking.
how well depends on the actual clock/crystal precision.

Asynchronous USB DAC is a special case, as regards signal transmission and clocking. It actually relies completely on the local clock, and it uses a protocols to request data to refill a local buffer from the sending USB source; then the local buffer is clocked into the DAC by the local clock, either at the 44.1 multiple or the 48 multiple. Now, it IS possible to do this and not be driving a clock, but driving an AES3 signal output with the local clock embedded. This is what happens with an ALPHA USB.

Then, in principle, this could be re-clocked further using a device like the Mutic MC3+ (or one could have just pumped the USB into a Mutec MC3+USB to begging with), which has very good internal conventional clocks, or can use an external Rubidium oscillator to lower the phase noise and jitter for all the digital circuitry internally by using that as a re-clocking reference standard. By Christmas I do plan to get the latter, just to see how it works as a translator for the microRendu, compared with the Alpha USB.

BTW, both Ron's and Bob's Schitt have arrived; unfortunately today I'm taking the Dell XPS 4K laptop into work for one of my partner's in crime to use for a few days on a project we're working on, for which we don't have company licensed software- this has a specific Simulation program which he needs to use for a few hours that I have on this Dell and on my 2010 Mac Pro, on the WIN 10 side. So it wil probably be early next week when I get to test, as the 2010 mac pro is on the other side of the man cave from the test bench...

[wkhanna]

link to article The myth of the asynchronous DAC

[Renron]

This is such a great group of guys. Thanks to all for helping out a dummy.
Ron

[wkhanna]

..... this [USB Signal] could be re-clocked further using a device like the Mutic MC3+ (or one could have just pumped the USB into a Mutec MC3+USB to begging with), which has very good internal conventional clocks, or can use an external Rubidium oscillator to lower the phase noise and jitter for all the digital circuitry internally by using that as a re-clocking reference standard.....

Dan (PewterTA) has the Mutec MC-3+ in his system.
he recently upgraded from the NAD 51 to a Bricasti M1.
we hear improvement of the sound quality from both DAC's when the Mutec is implemented.

hope to get our rubidium master reference clock hooked up to the Mutec one of these days....

[JonMarsh]

link to article The myth of the asynchronous DAC

There is a big conceptual and functional difference between an asynchronous DAC using AES or S/PDIF, versus USB. What they are referring to somewhat vaguely about the majority of DACs out there is the use of ASRC chips- Asynchronous sample rate converters, to convert to a single fixed frequency the converter runs on internally. These to tend to "filter' jitter from the incoming signal to some degree, but if you don't like the idea of non closed form up sampling, you DEFINITELY want to stay away from ASRC. It is a lower cost means to an end, an end being decent bench results with mediocre digital clock sources. As an example, for the original Benchmark DAC, all incoming sample rates were converted to 110kHz by ASRC, because that was the highest frequency that the BB converters had fairly decent imaging anti-aliasing calculation capability - at higher sample rates, image rejection suffers because the internal math unit of the BurrBrown/TI converters was operating out of it's ideal range.

This is part of why for higher end components (say, Berekely Alpha DAC) solutions using a high power DSP for all the sample rate and filtering functions became popular. In the Benchmark, if you fed it 176.4 kHz or 192 kHz, it actually down sampled.

[Hdale85]

Jon I have one of those XMOS usb interface boards I wonder how it would compare to your other usb interfaces. I shared it a while ago but been curious. I don't have the kind of funds that a Berkley USB or even that other unit requires.

Maybe I should send it to you to play with since I haven't done anything with it currently since I bought it probably 2 years ago....

[Hdale85]

Was this device in case you're curious? I bought one a long time ago when they were doing group buys on DiyAudio. Supposed a very good USB device for connection to a DAC that supports PCM or DSD input and it's used in many DAC's now days for USB input.

http://www.amanero.com/

[Renron]

Hdale85,
Glad to see someone new in the El Cheapo thread. Welcome. What DAC are you currently using? Are you happy with your current DAC?
ATM I'm stuck with an old Onkyo DVD player as combo transport and DAC. Not so good. My speakers deserve much better.
El Cheapo also has the XMos USB chip / board solution, which worked well for me. Jon may have a different take on things as I have only my ears with which to measure.
I hope it doesn't damage Jon's ears. Pabst Blue Ribbon compared to Jon's usual fare of Dom Pérignon.
Ron

[Hdale85]

I'm not sure how yours includes the real Xmos USB solution as the board alone is like 45 bucks in a group buy lol.

Currently I don't have a stand alone DAC as my nice 2 channel speakers kind of got destroyed with moving a few times. Looking to build something new soon though and it'd be nice to have a good setup for music again. Not sure I'd go with a 35 dollar DAC but there are some more budget oriented options I'm looking at to try and get a big bang per buck. I may go the DIY route honestly.

[Alaric]

Yes, Lee, Win10. Only a few months from a clean install. I don't care much for iOS 10, either. What is it with 10s?

Windows 10 is an ongoing Beta test. With DRM a priority for M$, but not a particularly effective skill set. Every update package borks numerous computers, and M$ takes their time fixing it because where else are you going to go? I went back to Windows 7, fixing the broken Windows Update W7 has suffered from since April 2015. The added bonus has been my TV tuner's (PCI) picture quality is much better than in W10, and I'm not the only one.

there are some more budget oriented options I'm looking at to try and get a big bang per buck.

Sounds like you need some new Schiit. LOL

[Hdale85]

Nah not likely Schiit lol.

[Alaric]

Are there comparable alternatives in that price range? It's new territory to me, and I'll be getting something in the next couple months. So I'm open (and eager for) options!

[Hdale85]

I'm more of a DIY guy. There is nothing American made that's fully built at those cheaper price ranges....no lol.

http://twistedpearaudio.com/digital/buffalose.aspx

This is something I've wanted to build for a while.

[Renron]

Xmos daughter card

HDale85,
Behold ! Xmos daughter card on El Cheapo. I had to install drivers for it to work so I know it's truly an Xmos chip. What quality is the design? I have no clue, but it works.
Ron

[Hdale85]

Yeah I didn't say it wasn't there lol, just saying it's not the same one most of the higher end dacs are using. It's a knockoff essentially. The XMOS chip on that one looks WAY smaller than mine.

[wkhanna]

maybe Reron's board is way bigger & it just makes his chip appear smaller?:roflmao:

[Hdale85]

Lol maybe.....

The funny thing is the ES9018 used to be way more than 30 dollars all by itself when it first came out. Talking just the DAC chip. It was a very expensive part which is why adoption took several years.

[Renron]

For the price I paid, it sure could be a "knock off". (shoulder shrug)

[wkhanna]

knock off or otherwise, what matters is how it sounds.
Once you upgrade, it will be interesting to hear your impressions.