Higher quality Power cord? hype or marketing nonsense?

[Alaric]

BTW , Brandon , I have heard Stephen Hawking had shown Einstein wasn't %100 in a couple of cases. However , I certainly can't converse on the details. So I will withdraw the reference and plead "mea culpa"

[Martyn]

Martyn-I believe I did say "better"-I think the crux of my post was the fact that much of this hobby is subjective.
I also know it is possible to have two "identical" objects on paper with noticeably different results when executed in a third dimension. I apologize to all if my posts were perceived as saying anyone is "wrong". I was trying to say maybe noone is wrong.

I didn't notice you saying anyone was wrong - there's no need for an apology as far as I can see - and I did notice that you said "better". I followed up with "different" in order to mitigate the issue of subjectivity in the research scenario. The issue of "better" is probably, although not necessarily, more difficult to determine. However, if it could be done conclusively, it would be of considerable financial value.

The problem is that we are all the victims of many forms of bias, so that our individual opinions, no matter how convincing to ourselves, are of little value to others. It's only when the sources of bias are minimised and we get a consensus of objective opinions emerging that they begin to have any real value. Unfortunately, marketing departments have discovered that they can extract more money from the consumer by clouding the issues with pseudo-science and appealing to emotions instead.

If someone is prepared to pay $100 for a metre of neon blue cable because he believes that it will sound better, that's his choice. Maybe he's the smart one and will reap a real benefit, but it's a fundamental scientific tenet that you accept the simplest theory that fits the facts. In the absence of facts(not opinions) to the contrary, the simplest theory is that cables don't make a difference.

Good discussion.

[whoaru99]

I am a big believer in cords.
You should look at this from a different angle. I don't think it’s the copper that makes the sound quality different, it's is what they can do for your system as a whole. If you can get rid of the interference that a standard cord will cause on lines and cables that are in close proximity then you have spent money wisely, very wisely....

...It simply doesn’t cost that much to get rid of the interference that power cords strung across your gear can cause. But I wish I had the money to blow on some of those good looking cords……

No disagreement here. I have several power cords that are shielded. Do they make a difference? Dunno, never tried anything else. I figured Madrigal Labs and others did the homework for me. I do know that replacement shielded power cords can be had for $10-$20.

Now, would I like to have a bunch aftermarket cords, sure why not. Many of them do look pretty wicked. However, my current arrangement of gear is not in a position to display cables. I did just get a 10% raise though.... hmmm.... prolly not power cord - thinking more like a Panny plasma or Sony SXRD...

[JudyLou]

Martyn
“It should be possible to determine with a high degree of statistical confidence whether two cables sound different. Whether one is "better" than the other could be more subjective, but if would surely be to the advantage of the manufacturer of the better sounding cable to possess such evidence. So why has no-one produced it?”

Hi Martyn
I’m not sure I understand totally what your asking – think I’m a little slow.
But cable companies do come with explanations accompanied with test results (technical), claiming better sound quality. Paper is very patient when it comes to claims – the proof is in the listening!

Why would anyone in their right mind buy a cable, AFTER listening to it, if it didn’t sound good, or upgrade to a more expensive cable, for the same reason.

I’m very sceptical when it comes to claims – I definitely haven’t got money to throw around! When I say one cable is better than another, it’s because I sat down and listened to it. Now what amazes me about really good (musical) sounding cables is the fact that you don’t have to sit for hours, to realise the music is more focused, transparent and smooth. You notice all than in just seconds.

Talking about believing. It doesn’t mean that when we do not understand something, or don’t believe something, that it’s not true, or cannot happen.
Hope you don’t mind me leaving you with some very interesting technology and claims – read it – test it – and what better than to use our favourite Speaker Manufactures Slogan: “Listen and You Will See”.

From Ecosse, cable manufacturers.
“Here, a patented casting process (extrusion and annealing) is employed to produce a 'mono' or single crystal ultra-pure wire with significant advantages over other cables currently available. These other cables use ordinary copper or silver, which, no matter how few grains the manufacturer claims, have a grain barrier of oxygen and hydrogen.
There are 9 perfect characteristics of this, by now, Monocrystal™ copper: Unidirectional, Free of Impurity, Flexibility, Fatigue-Resistance, Corrosive-Resistance, Low Electric Resistance, Non-crystal Boundaries, Rapid Transmissibility, Perfect in Structure.
The Main technical parameters of Monocrystal™:
• Continuous casting Monocrystal copper rod's metallographic structure has less than 3 'grains'; each single grain occupies over 75% of the total area.
• Compared with multi-crystal cast rod, the Monocrystal copper's tensile strength is increased by 10~20%, elongation rate is reduced by 50~80% and section shrinkage rate reduces by 200~300%.
• Compared with the more common continuous-cast copper rod our continuous cast Monocrystal copper's conductivity has been increased by between 2~10%.
• Oxygen content: less than 5ppm
• Hydrogen content: less than 0.25ppm
• Density: not less than 8.920g/cm3
• Average grain size: 125m (below 0.3mm)
• Purity: Minimum 5N (99.999%)
SUPERMONOCRYSTAL™
We begin 2004 with the first real advance in copper wire casting and processing since the advent of single-crystal conductor material, two decades ago, and introduce the world's ONLY Super-Monocrystal™ Cables - you might say we have taken the single-crystal process to the Nth (sic) degree!
The Super-Monocrystal™ Process (SMS):With continuous cast mono-crystal there are an absolute minimum of impurities in the grain boundary. Now, by heating and re-crystallising the metal, while absolutely maintaining its structure, and due to the physical stabilization of this ultra- pure material under stress-free conditions, we achieve an unsurpassed conductor of the delicate audio signal with quite exceptional linearity through the audio frequency band.
N.B. Audiophiles please note that it is the purity of 'grain structure' (not to be confused with purity of copper or silver employed - often expressed as 99.99% or better - and merely signifying the purity of the copper ingot before smelting), which defines the major characteristics in the conductor's ability to transmit audiophile quality sound and video. For the record, Monocrystal™ is a minimum 5N's pure; SuperMonocrystal™ 7N!
SHOCK: NOT ALL OFC IS THE SAME!
Ecosse's OFC has but 40-parts per million grains versus normal Copper, which has about 235PPM grains. It is these grain boundaries which cause irritating distortions and have a deleterious effect on sound. This purification of our copper drastically reduces the formation of copper oxides substantially reducing the distortion caused by the grain boundaries.
The sound of an UHP-OFC copper cable is smoother, cleaner, and more dynamic than the same design made with standard high purity copper. “
If you’re interested in reading more go for it at the following link:-

http://www.ecossecables.co.uk/Tables/table_frameset5.html

Enjoy your testing
Lourens

[Martyn]

Martyn
“It should be possible to determine with a high degree of statistical confidence whether two cables sound different. Whether one is "better" than the other could be more subjective, but if would surely be to the advantage of the manufacturer of the better sounding cable to possess such evidence. So why has no-one produced it?”

Hi Martyn
I’m not sure I understand totally what your asking – think I’m a little slow.
But cable companies do come with explanations accompanied with test results (technical), claiming better sound quality. Paper is very patient when it comes to claims – the proof is in the listening!

Why would anyone in their right mind buy a cable, AFTER listening to it, if it didn’t sound good, or upgrade to a more expensive cable, for the same reason.

Hi, Lourens.

I'm sure you're right, most cable companies do come with explanations accompanied with test results claiming better sound quality. The question is: are those explanations and claims worth the paper they're written on? They are hardly the results of independent research, but are simply the latest promotional efforts of their "spin-doctor-cum-would-be-cable-guru". Certainly when I read such material that lies within the boundaries of my own technical expertise, it's sometimes hard to stop myself from bursting out laughing because the techno-babble content is so absurd. If a cable company is looking for a source of competitive advantage over the rest, all it has to do is to get third-party verification of its claims by a reputable, independent lab. Then it can cite the lab's technical report instead of using its own marketing drivel.

"Why would anyone in their right mind buy a cable, AFTER listening to it, if it didn’t sound good..." Lots of reasons - all emotional, but it's their money and it's their decision how they spend it.

The rest of your message, and the website it's drawn from, refers mostly to the metallurgical properties and heat treatment of the conductors and implies that this somehow affects or interferes with the flow of electrons along the conductor. It's over thirty years since I did any materials science and metallurgy courses, but it's obvious enough that your talking about the grain structure of monocrystalline and polycrystalline materials. Nonetheless, this text still contains its share of weasel-words.

As an aside, the word "monocrystalline" has been in the public domain for decades, so trademarking a term like "Monocrystal" in an attempt to convey an impression of unique, proporietary technology falls flat on its face with anyone who has had even a basic introduction to materials science. These people see it as simple marketing hype.

When I read: "There are 9 perfect characteristics of this, by now, Monocrystal™ copper: Unidirectional, Free of Impurity, Flexibility, Fatigue-Resistance, Corrosive-Resistance, Low Electric Resistance, Non-crystal Boundaries, Rapid Transmissibility, Perfect in Structure." a succession of thoughts went through my mind:

"Unidirectional" - I have no idea what this is referring to.
"Free of Impurity" - how many nines, and does it matter?
"Flexibility" - what a vague and ambiguous term.
"Fatigue-Resistance" - has there ever been a fatigue failure of an audio power cable? Of course not.
"Corrosive-Resistance" - very important if the cable will be used on the beach.
"Low Electric Resistance" - well, it is made of copper...
"Non-crystal boundaries" - how can a crystalline structure have non-crystal boundaries?

....and so on. I'm sure you get the picture.

In other words, none of this is convincing. No doubt the layman is impressed and maybe the metallurgical engineer understands what you're trying to say, but I just ask myself: "how is any of this relevant?" Even if all the technical claims are correct, is there any rigorous scientific evidence that it makes any difference to the flow of electrons along the conductor? Do the poor little things really have difficulty getting around pockets of inpurities at the grain interstices? When we remember that atoms are orders of magnitude smaller than crystals, and electrons are orders of magnitude smaller still, I somehow doubt it.

Even if it does make a difference, how many orders of magnitude is it below the general noise level of the power supply, and what evidence is there that these microscopic imperfections in an already grossly dirty power-supply (even after "conditioning") translate into imperfections in sound quality?

Lourens, I'm a "Doubting Thomas". I'm not going to be persuaded by corporate promotional material or by reviews that tell me I'll hear blacker blacks and soaring highs that soar even higher. If "The sound of an UHP-OFC copper cable is smoother, cleaner, and more dynamic than the same design made with standard high purity copper", perhaps a good starting point would be to submit a technical paper that substantiates this claim for peer review. I might be completely wrong and would not mind in the least being proven wrong, but in the absence of due process these are just empty words.

[JudyLou]

Hi, Lourens.

Lourens, I'm a "Doubting Thomas". I'm not going to be persuaded by corporate promotional material or by reviews that tell me I'll hear blacker blacks and soaring highs that soar even higher. If "The sound of an UHP-OFC copper cable is smoother, cleaner, and more dynamic than the same design made with standard high purity copper", perhaps a good starting point would be to submit a technical paper that substantiates this claim for peer review. I might be completely wrong and would not mind in the least being proven wrong, but in the absence of due process these are just empty words.

Hi Martyn

I also am a "doubting Thomas" when it comes to statements that sounds, unbelievable. That is why you will see I wrote previously to take a listen. If one’s ears can convince one – no technical data will. I do not care what science says – there’s always more in science to follow than what we know.

Also it seems very futile for these cable companies to keep on developing something that doesn’t work. Or is it maybe because we are so dumb to keep on believing new and more technological is better and keep on buying it.

Please don’t believe me, or wait for any technical paper story to prove better power cables do work. Go out and try it.
I promise you, you are seriously losing out by not at least trying.
Lourens

[wolfgang]

I also think there would be no way I could ever be fooled by marketing. Tried many cables never heard any difference until I listened to those Ecosse's 'Monocystal' cables. It was amazing suddenly my ears tells me these really did made a lot of improvement. Happy for a few months. Then a few engineering type said if I was so sure they were really that good then why not listen again only this time ask some one else to change then around and see if using my ears alone could I still be able to tell which was which.

Yeap. From then I stopped reading audiophile magazines like Stereophile etc etc and will only trust me ears.

[2bluechris]

Power Cords - more about

Hello all ,
those seroiusly interested in this topic , have a look at the Thread I started , later moved to this Forum , and Titled :-
Power Cords - more about

In the first post there I refer to an earlier Thread posted in Club Rotel and its Initiator .

Both these threads contain some interesting posts on this subject , {and readers can decide for themselves the relative value of my comments there}.

Unfortunately both threads got locked , so please do keep this one polite so that this interesting , even though controversial , subject can result in some more interesting user reports being posted .

[bigburner]

And the world is not round, it is 11 dimentional branes with 7 dimensions wrapped around itself...

Like a circle in a spiral
Like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning
On an ever-spinning reel

[twitch54]

There's the crux of the story right there... (above)

Isn’t the power cord a direct extension of wall power?
What’s behind the sheetrock is ROMEX right up until it hands off to the power cord…if something magical is supposed to happen in that 6 feet of cord I’m fascinated to know?

Andrew, Interesting you make that comment, for recently I came across an outfit (can't remember the name) who was actually selling his "custom romex" for a $100 per foot !!!!!!! What a crock of you know what !! There is absolutely nothing that can justify that cost per foot.

[Veronika]

Single Crystal Copper

Hello

Please, visit our site www.polikor.ru and read more about single crystal copper.

Veronika

[ThomasW]

Hello

Please, visit our site www.polikor.ru and read more about single crystal copper.

Veronika

Interesting, but I'm not sure anyone posting here has the ability to 'draw' their own wire from your ingots....:wink:

[NoHype]

A friend of mine has desighned speakers for many years and has many of his desighns on the market and they are some very well thought of speaker names .

One of the companies he worked for is a very large maker of speakers that you all know well. They spent a ton of cash putting together a test of many diffrent brand power cables , interconects , and speaker wire . The test was done under very strick conditions with a large number of gear combo's and listeners . They did every thing possible to make this test as fair and accurate as possible .

The test proved that there was no gain in sound quality going from a well built low price interconnect ,power cord, or speaker wire to the "Audiophile" grade high priced units.

None of this really matters becuase people will choose to bleave what they want and hear what they want . If a person buy's these products and thinks they make his/her system sound better then I guess all the facts in the world mean nothing , to them the sound improved . My problem comes in when a guy like me is sold this bill of goods that just are not true and I did nothing but waste money that I could have used on buying gear that will make a gain in sound quality.

[JudyLou]

None of this really matters becuase people will choose to bleave what they want and hear what they want . If a person buy's these products and thinks they make his/her system sound better then I guess all the facts in the world mean nothing , to them the sound improved . My problem comes in when a guy like me is sold this bill of goods that just are not true and I did nothing but waste money that I could have used on buying gear that will make a gain in sound quality.[/QUOTE]

If one is prepared to something like a power cable strictly on what others say - well one can hardly blame the salesperson.
Listen to it - if you can't hear the difference - don't buy it! Simple as that.
I didn't believe power cords could make a difference - listened for myself - and was totally surprised, and bought myself some. Even changed the factory fitted ones on my Harman Kardon Amp & Cd player. When I say factory fitted - I mean no kettle cord.
Lourens

[wolfgang]

NoHype,
Would you be happy to tell us the name of the speakers manufacturer in the forum? If not you could PM me as I am quite interested to know who it was.

[NoHype]

Wolfganf , This friend of mine keeps the details of what projects and companies he worked for pretty quiet . He will mention a companies name from time to time be he wont tell many people the exact projects he's been involved in . The test they performed from what I understand was conducted only for the companies benefit .

I promised him that the details he's told me over the years would not be repeated. I will ask him if by chance this projects findings were published anywhere , if they were I'll provide that info to you all . I know this makes my claims a bit suspect becuase I can't give the details but my word is more more important to me .

[Alaric]

So when people thought the world was flat, it was flat?

It should be possible to determine with a high degree of statistical confidence whether two cables sound different. Whether one is "better" than the other could be more subjective, but if would surely be to the advantage of the manufacturer of the better sounding cable to possess such evidence. So why has no-one produced it?

Because better is subjective-geography is not. Shall we next compare airplanes and basketballs? "Statistical confidence"??? There are three kinds of lies-Lies , damned lies , and statistics.(Thanks to Samuel Clemens for that reference)

[ThomasW]

A friend of mine has desighned speakers for many years and has many of his desighns on the market and they are some very well thought of speaker names .......

We have a moderator here who is twice published in the AES journals and certainly has credentials on par with your friend. He states categorically there are audible and measurable differences in IC's and speaker wire. And he's proven this with A/B'ing in my big system, and with testing via a very $pendy HP Distortion Analyzer.

For those that don't know, IC's and speaker wire all possess varying amounts of inductance, capacitance and resistance. These are the components that make up an audio filter. Therefore IC's and speaker wire function as passive tone controls. Whether one can hear differences is totally dependant on the quality of the playback system.

Now back on topic. If one is considering an aftermarket power cord, make sure you can return it if you don't hear an improvement. Because 1m of high-end wire isn't going to make too big a dent in the AC that's been running for miles on plain old alu or Cu wire ....

[wolfgang]

We have a moderator here who is twice published in the AES journals and certainly has credentials on par with your friend. He states categorically there are audible and measurable differences in IC's and speaker wire. And he's proven this with A/B'ing in my big system, and with testing via a very $pendy HP Distortion Analyzer.

Same question to you then. Who is this person and have this groundbreaking experiment been published? I would be very interested to have look if it was.

[Aaron M.]

For those that don't know, IC's and speaker wire all possess varying amounts of inductance, capacitance and resistance. These are the components that make up an audio filter.

This is true, BUT...
The signal running through a POWER cord is whopping 60Hz, the kind of inductance OR capacitance values that would be required to effect that low of a frequency would be huge.
Resistance is a valid point: voltage drop is not cool.

Get a nice beefy cord with heavy gauge wire...and that is that. Besides, if you're hearing artifacts coming through your power cord, you most certainly have a piece of gear with a poorly designed or faulty power supply.

[ThomasW]

Same question to you then. Who is this person and have this groundbreaking experiment been published? I would be very interested to have look if it was.

That person is of course JonMarsh.

There's certainly nothing groundbreaking about measuring cables. Go to any major wire mfgr's website, they list the specs for the wires/cable they make.

Years ago Jon posted a small sample testing in the DIY forum. I'll look around and see if any of the data is still uploaded.

[wolfgang]

I know this makes my claims a bit suspect becuase I can't give the details but my word is more more important to me .

I wouldn't say that as it is understandable if he was under obligation to protect sensitive R&D details of his employers. Having said that I am not sure why any loudspeaker manufacturer would like to hush up any details of 'negative benefits' of audiophiles cables following internal investigation themselves.

ThomasW,
Thanks. If you could find the data it would be most interesting. By the way what does mfgr stand for?

[David Meek]

mfgr = manufacturer

[whoaru99]

Having said that I am not sure why any loudspeaker manufacturer would like to hush up any details of 'negative benefits' of audiophiles cables following internal investigation themselves.

Seems this is somewhat of a "Gentlemen's Agreement" as best I can tell. In other words, I won't call your product snake oil if you don't call mine snake oil...