1066 Power cord replacement

[george king]

Welcome to the world of snake oil, voodoo and black magic Danbry.

Kidding aside, I also heard a difference when I added an aftermarket cord to my 1075 amp.

Part of the problem with the whole cables, cords, etc. debate is that people try and frame it as an engineering problem and it is not. It is one of perception and psychoacoustics.

As anyone who ever took intro psych, or looked at an illusion should know, that what you Percieve is not a direct function of the sensory input.

Oh well, my 2 cents.

[Scarp]

If its only psychological then why do people pick out the better cable in blind tests?

[will1066]

Me also thinks this is one of the best tweaks I've made for the money.

Thanks to you and all who made me curious enough to give it a try. You all taught me something.

I'd like pass your thanks to Ron Reda. Again, he's the one who made me curious. It's nice to pick up an improvement, but it's nicer to share it with others. And it's a big enough improvement -- bigger than a change in interconnects, I feel -- that I feel confident I can pick out in a blind test.

[george king]

Scarp,

I am not trying to be difficult, but I do not understand the point you are trying to make.

You seem to assume that if it is psychological, it isn't "real" or "measurable" or "scientific" in some sense. Nothing could be further from the truth.

[zeppelin]

Heres something to add, lets put as an example of electricity conductors, which 1 can conduct electricity better copper, silver or gold. We are talking about quality of the cables weather its made of high quality pure copper or copper alloy, so think it in technical terms which one would you prefer.
A cheap cables normally are made from broken strain of copper join together and normally they would mix the copper with some other alloy metal and are not shielded or the shielding is not done properly. Cheap cables also got more resistant and because of that electricity cant travel properly.
So in other words if you upgrade a cable I mean from a cheap comercial 1's to a higher quality cables, you will definitely here some difference.

[Danbry39]

Here's what audioengr had to say in response to why some power cords work better. The reason I'm adding this is that the music does sound "snappier" and "quicker". I imagine this is also why microaccoustics and detail might also be perceived as improved:

Amplifiers demand current from the power-line when the capacitors in their power-supplies become momentarily discharged due to high-current transients in the music signal. This discharge condition must be quickly recharged from the power-line, through the power-supply transformer and rectifiers, or a voltage sag will occur. Such voltage sags can cause audible distortion at the loudspeakers. If the power-line has significant series inductance in the path from the power panel to the amplifier, this can prevent the capacitor bank from recharging in time to prevent a voltage sag from occurring at the amplifier output transistors. With a low-inductance cable, the voltage drop across the cable will be insignificant during high-current transients, minimizing the voltage sag. This allows all of the current needed by the output transistors to be supplied when they need it, resulting in fast, dynamic response to transient signals. This is why the sounds are "snappier".

He went on to explicate the above with mathematics of an engineering vein, but that's all beyond me.




Keith

[Azeke]

Hmmmmm!

Certainly my curiousity has been aroused.

Is this just merely psychoacoustical h: ?

I think I will order three for expermentational purposes 8) .

Regards,

Azeke

[luszer]

I just received my order, Flavor 1,2, and 3 only problem I took delivery at work. Have to wait the whole day.... actually feeling a little sick

[will1066]

Luszer, great! Let us know how they work out in your rig.

[Claude D D]

[Claude D D]

I still wouldn't dream of paying as much for a power cord as a piece of component, though.

Powercords and cables are components that can make a difference.A friend of mine has B&W802N's connected to his Krell amps with speaker cable that cost twice as much as his 802's.He swears that the speaker cables are his best "component".

For most of us decent modestly priced quality powercords will still make an improvement in the sound quality of your system.I was a sceptic until I tried the CVH powercords about a year ago.Now I'm a believer.

[Scarp]

Try NBS topmodels, I see powercords from that brand selling 2nd hand for still 10.000 euro 8O...

On cabling always make sure it matches the rest of the system. Compare it to the following: Putting ferrari wheels on a mini cooper doesn't make it go as fast as the ferrari, but put mini cooper wheels on a ferrari and you will hold your ferrari back.

[epiney]

Hello,

Are you guys running the new power cords from a power conditioner to your units or straight from the electrical outlet? I bought a Panamax 5300 a few months ago and didn't really hear or see a big difference. I bought it mainly to protect against the brown outs and voltage dips we seem to get so often here, so wasn't disappointed with it.

I'm not trying be inflammatory by any means, but just trying to figure out how a power cord that's connected to hundreds of feet of 14/2 regular houshold wiring could make a difference? Isn't it the same as using a high quality interconnect patched together with a cheap throw away when connecting components? I trust you guys when you say there's a difference, but I trying to figure out how it works. :?

BTW, I just spent a bundle on Tributaries silver series interconnects and I thought it made a difference.

[Danbry39]

epiney,

First of all, don't apologize, you're talking to skeptic #1 here.

Ron Reda, who started this thread, gave such a well written review of the VH Audio cables and I became cable curious. :LOL: Well, Ron inspired other responses and purchases of power cords. Just felt I had to try it, but, in my heart, still felt skeptical. Still, my skepticism was challenged and lost when I listened to my 1066 using the VH Audio cord.

I would have never tried one of the ones that cost several hundred dollars into the thousands. Still, I was always kind of bugged by the quality of the 1066 cord and how it fell out so easily, so, just like the surge/brownout protection offered by your power conditioner, this would still maybe have a plus side, if perhaps not sonically.

For an answer as to why power cords might have a sonic impact despite the distance the electricity has traveled, read some of the posts above. Basically, power cords can't clean up power in the way you suggested. However, they can pick up noise from components in your own system, which can, in turn, be picked up by other interconnects via the power cords field of radiation. This is one reason we're asked to separate our power cords from our interconnects. Better shielding can significantly reduce these power cord fields.

By the way, I don't know if these answers are correct or not. Like you, I was curious, so started a thread on a board I knew had a lot of electronic engineers and people with advanced degrees in physics, as well as hobbyists, etc. What I posted above is a sampling of their responses. I would never have even asked except I was kind of taken aback by hearing a noticable difference. It is interesting how many others went in skeptical, like me, and ended up being believers.




Keith

[Sithlord10]

I know from experience that speaker cable and interconnects can have a huge effect on sound quality. I recently upgraded my speaker cable to AudioQuest Slate and it was the best choice I ever made. Secondly my dealer let me borrow 2 Audioquest Optilink cables (Optilink-3 and Optilink-5). I paid $160 for my first Optilink from Audioquest, now after trying their best (Optilink-5) I bought it. At $540 (Australian) it isn't cheap but the difference in sound was incredible. There is so much detail missing from running standard Optical cable I couldn't believe the difference and this is one cable. I'm definately going to try those power cables after my experiences with upgrading interconnects. Tweeking can get very expensive, but if you spend alot on your speakers and components and you want to get the best performance well the choice is simple.

[luszer]

OK, about 30-35 hours burnt in on a Flavor 2 for the RB991, Flavor 3 on the 1066 and Flavor 1 on my Arcam CD72. Great results thus far. Music sounds more alive and faster. I can detect more seperation and a tighter cleaner bass response. The only caveat is my speakers in my main system are my weakest link. However the PC investment made has produced a noticable improvement over the stock cords.
The CD72 is running on a NAD C370 with pair of B&W bookshelves. On this setup I can attest to clearer and smoother highs, more bass punch. The music sounds more real, overall just better.
Originally everything sounded very muffled and boxey and after about 25 hours everything started to open up a bit.
Due the heavy build construction the PC are still a bit loose, the weight of the cable makes the connection to the component sag a little.
Overall, for such a cheap experiment/investment you can really bring out every last little piece of performance from your gear/setup.

[will1066]

Cool, luszer. I now have the Flavor 3 on my 1066, Flavor 2 on 1075, and Flavor 1s on my CD92 and Denon 2900. They are all constructed very well. The Flavor 2 is quite big!

[luszer]

will1066
I noticed you are running CDM7's, I have some experience with B&W, 601 s3 for a secondary listening room. Pretty impressive for price.
I am seriously considering the 604s3 for my main listening/viewing room, 70% music 30% HT. Did you start at the CDM line or gradually moved up? Would you have any input on how much of a difference there is between your 7NT and the 604s? What do you like and maybe dislike regarding the 7NT. I would expect that you fell in love with them immediately. Any insight is greatly appreciated

[will1066]

luszer, I had the CM 4 before the CDMs. I can't give you a direct comparison between the DM 604s3, but I picked the CM 4 over the DM 603s3 during my buying stage. People say the CM is a DM with fancy, decor-friendly cabinetry. I thought the CM was a little more transparent and neutral than the DM, though it was a tough choice because the DM was actually more engaging. Ultimately, I felt that even though the CM was more laid back, it had the sound I wanted in the long run. With CMs in possession, I had no intention to get the CDMs. Then, a local dealer held a 6-hour midnight sale, the 7NTs for $1400. I had heard them before, on their own w/o comparison to the CM and DM, and know what they were capable of. Just couldn't afford them prior. Everyone I asked said go for it, can't pass it up for that price. So I did it. Sold the CMs on audiogon. To me, the CDMs have a more refined treble (likely due to the externally mounted tweeter), improved transparency, stronger imaging. Biggest difference is the soundstaging (really wide). They are a tad shy in the bass, but what's there is tight and has good tonality. The CM seemed to go a bit deeper than the CDM. They are also placement sensitive and must be free from walls to be their best. Played a lot with placement (5, 6, 7 ft between speakers) and toe-in but have settled in.

Still, I don't think you can go wrong with the 604s. The 603s can jam and were very engaging.

[Sithlord10]

Well I've ordered the Flavor 1 and 3 for my 1098 and Denon 2900 on Wednesday so hopefully have them soon. I will post my review when they have arrived.

[Sithlord10]

Well took delivery of the power cables a day ago and I must say I'm impressed. There is definate improvemnet in overall sound quality and the soundstage seems more expansive. Another nice change was each movie I tried I heard things which I've never heard before, little sounds like windblowing water trickling. I've ordered the Flavor 4 for the Rotel 1095 and I can't wait to see if there is more improvement to come. Thank you Chris form VH Audio for bringing such excellent products to all us audiophiles. ;x(

[will1066]

Happy to hear you found improvements, Sithlord.

[Danbry39]

Me too. :T Has anyone else noticed what a great guy Chris is too? Truly seems to be one of the nice guys you enjoy doing business with and always seems to send things out the day after the order.




Keith

[art vandeleigh]

hi all, here is my take on it. i just did a little experiment today with RCA analog A/V cables. i have a ton of 1$ RCA cables and a $20-25 RCA A/V cable. i decided to cut them open and see what the heck i was really paying extra for. what did i find....they were the exact same on the inside. i even went as far as to count the number of copper wire...and again they had the same copper wire count. the only difference was the "24K" connector as opposed to the usual cheap plastic/rubber connector of the cheap one.

i have the 1055 and i have noticed that the power cord is a little shaky and not really secured well. but im no EE but i dont see how a power cord will do anything for the performance. if the OEM power cord is thick enough (and it should be) then if you are getting 120V no matter what power cord you have you will only get 120v of current to pass to the unit.

but im not professing to know, this is just my 2 cent. but again i do see that the OEM power cord does not stay on the unit very securely and that is a little bothersome to me.

[Stevebez]

Mmmm... Well all I know is the standard cord is not great on either the 1066 or 1075.

Another thing is also clear and that is shielding. Clearly a better shielded cable is going to be better in terms of not passing any distortion through into the components or to neighbouring cables ... if this is significant enough to notice sonically is another matter. I would think in extreme cases there must be something to this.

Don't capacitors do some "cleaning" of the voltage feed as well? I think (although I am no engineer) I would prefer a better-shielded cable that fits snugly ...

One can measure the magnetic field emitted from the cables with these handheld devices that detect cables behind dry walls etc. They can be pretty useful in seeing just how much is radiated from poor cables and "better" cables I imagine.

Something else to bear in mind is when fitting car sound we often had problems with poor voltage feed carrying alternator noise and static from poorly insulated HT leads. I guess this is an extreme comparison as the HT leads carry 10's of thousands of volts while wall AC is 110/240 depending where you are. This is a huge difference in potential leaking of static or noise but the possibility is still there. Power cables made of individual Car HT leads would be interesting to test as they are loaded with carbon insulation. This should be the ultimate in clean AC supply, but would seem pointless if the source AC is not derived from a power cleaner (e.g. Panamax) source.

Phew that’s it ... maybe I'll try it someday

[george king]

Sithlord,

May I ask if you have gotten the cords, and what your impressions are. I am thinking of getting a Flavor 3 for my Denon 1600, and was wondering if you saw/heard any improvement on your 2900.

Thanks a bunch

[aud19]

Hey George .... I notice you have a Denon 1600.... If you have a minute could you have a look at this thread? http://www.htguide.com/CFBoards/inde...artRow=1&CFB=1

I'd love to hear your opinion as well

P.S. Sorry for temporarily taking this thread off topic ops:

J.R.




Need a new display? Questions about new display technologies? Visit RPTVs, plasmas, and other monitors @ HTguide

[george king]

aud

i dont have it yet, as it is being shipped from Crutchfield. Should be here next week. Besides, I have a 1075 amp, not the 1066 yet. I am using a Yamaha 995 as a preamp

[Sithlord10]

Hi george. Yep got them a couple of days ago. As I bought 2 cables one for the Rotel 1098 and the Denon 2900, I not sure which one has had the best effect on my HT. As I posted earlier my initial impressions are that they have made enough of an improvement that I have ordered the Flavor 4 for my 1095. I believe the sound has more clarity especially when it comes to low back ground sounds that you normally miss. As I haven't had much time to test (working who thought up that concept) I believe they are worth the price and plus you are assured that they are not causing interference with any of your components. The only problem which is a small one is that they don't have alot of flexability,so bending them around corners is a challenge. Other than that, they fit securely in the componets no problem of them popping out and they are well priced. So if your thinking of purchasing one for your denon my suggestion is do it. 8)

[dpmckenzie]

For those of you who bought the various Flavors, did anyone try the Furutech plugs? In response to my email, Chris suggested them highly, but at the additional cost, I'd like to get some impressions. The price of the plugs may put them out of my comfort range.

[Sithlord10]

The Flavor cords that I purchased were the cryro ones. I would have liked to get the better ones but as the Australian dollar is trading at around 68c to every US dollar it would be too expensive for me. I would have loved to get the gold ones oh well when I win the lottery.

[Andrew Pratt]

Guys I hate to lock threads and I try to avoid doing so but management has asked that this thread be closed. I realize everyone was behaving nicely which for a cable discussion was refreshing:T But the forum only exists as long as the sponsors continue to pay the bills and to that end talk about a competing cable vendor doesn't help our situation. I understand some will be frustrated with this and it may seem heavy handed but to be honest without the sponsors support this site may not be able to continue as we know it today. Thanks for understanding and your continued support. For what its worth Parts Express sells lots of cable making supplies as well and as an advertiser on the site feel free to start a DIY power cable thread in the Home Theater area if you like.

Andrew