Official Wavecor Ardent Reference Thread - How we realized the Dream

[Steve Manning]

Your right Ron, that is a nice room!

[Horio]

Nice setup Tek! All you're missing is an Ardent Center.

How do those servo Rythmiks blend with the Wavecor Ardents? Do you turn them off for music?

[BobEllis]

How is your build coming, Horio?

[TEK]

Nice setup Tek! All you're missing is an Ardent Center.

How do those servo Rythmiks blend with the Wavecor Ardents? Do you turn them off for music?

Jup, the center is indeed missing!
The Rythmiks blends inn butefully. I'm using them for music also.

[Horio]

How is your build coming, Horio?

No sawdust creation yet, but I've got all the drivers and some crossover parts. I'm trying to finish up another couple projects before I embark on this one. Things should get underway this summer.

[Renron]

Horio,
When you start, please put a link to your thread build so we can follow along. Fantastic speakers.

[JonMarsh]

Best of show class product?

All of you Ardent builders, listen up- I just came across this interesting post regarding the recent RMAF, and a "Bests of Show Award" for a system using Avalon Indras. you might have heard of them and realize they're the starting point/jumping off point for the Ardent design.


Might give you some ideas for peripheral equipment upgrades. (Cough...) If you've won the lottery recently.

The most appealingly musical sound I heard at RMAF this year was in the very first room I set foot in on Thursday afternoon. I confirmed that impression with a return visit on Sunday. In Room 1030, LPs were played on a Kronos Pro ($38,000) fitted with a Black Beauty tonearm ($8500) and an EMT S75 cartridge (approximately $3900). Digital files and CDs were handled by a Nagra Seven digital recorder ($4800), Nagra Classic DAC converter ($14,000), and a CDT disc transport ($16,000). The system was completed with a Nagra Classic preamp ($17,000), two Nagra monoblocks ($16,000 each), Avalon Indra loudspeakers ($34,995) and Kubala-Sosna cabling. Room treatment was accomplished with Acustica Applicata DaaDs (Diffusion Absorption Acoustic Devices). Especially memorable was L’histoire du soldat, played back from a Reference Recordings LP and several original DSD recordings made by master engineer René Laflamme, who was in attendance.

Now, if you haven't won the lottery, you could alway go looking for used Halcro gear on Fleabay, as some of us do...

My only point here is that you have a lot of upgrade headroom available. Better cabinet (no MDF), better woofers, better tweeter. Same great midrange.

TGIF, folks.

[TEK]

That's just cool!
It would be quite interesting to have a set of Ardent and a set of Indra going head-to-head 8O
None of the builders tht happend to have a Avalon dealership close by?

[BobEllis]

Cool. I wonder what impact my all LBL baffle has compared to the LBL/bamboo specified. I'm upgrading electronics but won't get anywhere near that level, or likely even used Halcro gear.

To bang the drum once again, placement seems to have more impact than electronics at the levels of my gear, although differences in DACs and amps are readily apparent. Try the Cardas positioning. That added a significant sense of height to the image on top of increased depth and breadth. Almost makes me want to go back to work so I can afford a dedicated listening room.

[dar47]

Ya, Bob just knowing you have all that goodness there with these speaks makes it very special. Mine are now in a small living room that I get to play with. Need to soften the room and I definitively need a defusher behind me. With the NAD M51, Moon mind 180 renderer, Neo 350P pre and some mono Ncores the sound imaging is great. Speaks 4 to 5' off the front wall and chair 5' from the back wall it's pretty good for a small room. Going to play with furnishings but I think I can audition some different dacs, maybe a Moon NEO 380D or that top end Schiit multi bit to start with but I will only upgrade if it is tangibly better. I think Jon is right with these speaks we are left with only room and front gear improvements.

They are tucked in this pic but the spaeks can come out more and the couch pushed back.

Image not available

[Steve Manning]

Cool. I wonder what impact my all LBL baffle has compared to the LBL/bamboo specified. I'm upgrading electronics but won't get anywhere near that level, or likely even used Halcro gear.

To bang the drum once again, placement seems to have more impact than electronics at the levels of my gear, although differences in DACs and amps are readily apparent. Try the Cardas positioning. That added a significant sense of height to the image on top of increased depth and breadth. Almost makes me want to go back to work so I can afford a dedicated listening room.

Here ya go Bob ...... just waiting for you. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/so...-broomfield-co

[Renron]

Dar47,
Looking very nice. Your choice of speaker finish goes well with your floors. I really like the wall color as well.
Jon, those prices are very dear, If your not driving a Ferrari. Oh my Lord. $38K for a turntable W/O tonearm??? Nothing but Kobe beef, huh?
Only an elected official could afford a system like that. Or justify it.
Ron

[benthe8track]

Ardent check in here:
Tek, I'm jealous of your room. Looks like a great place to spend time.

Jon, that is both comforting and alarming, the room left in the Ardents!
Although I think I'm finished for a while. I picked up a 65" OLED on a Black Friday sale...lucky for me Canada has borrowed that tradition from our American friends.

[TEK]

Just love your finish Ben! Congrats on your new TV. 65" OLED sounds like a killer!
I expect that I will stay with my Marantz prosessor and sony projector for some more years. Waiting for the really large tv's to be more common and drop in price, then I might target a 100" 4k tv and replace the prosessor with something newer that supports 4k...

[JonMarsh]

Dar47,

Only an elected official could afford a system like that. Or justify it.
Ron

Hey Ron,

That's a curious comment... to me, it seems having matters a bit backwards. I do get the impression from that statement that you feel elected officials are over paid.


Let's look at some numbers.

State executive officials
Office and current official Salary
==============================================
Governor of California Jerry Brown $173,987
Lieutenant Governor of California Gavin Newsom $130,490
California Secretary of State Alex Padilla $130,490

Now, these are unquestionably elected officials, and fairly high up ones for the State of CA.

But I can tell you these salaries don't touch what a VP or CEO or CFO at a Silicon valley company makes, nor even what top programmers and project leads at Google make.

I could go further, but lets just say I wouldn't trade my job for Jerry's, much less Gavin's or Alex's, considering the different levels of responsibility and hassle. And I'm just a high level engineer at a conservative Germany company that doesn't pay very high salaries in the USA, especially not at the upper levels compared with American companies.


And then there are guys like the Wallstreet bankers and traders. One of my GF's good friend's son was doing that, raking it in hand over fist, for a major firm on the Street, until he realized with the special tax treatments that exist in Puerto Rico, he could move there and do the same kind of work on his own and make an even bigger killing.... as long as you don't mind some Zika mosquitos here and there, and a territory who's overall finances are in a shambles. They live in a nice gated community on Dorado beach... sort of a high end haven. You can actually get something pretty nice there for $300K to $500K- a lot more than what $750K would buy you here in the slums of Danville. And for a million and a half or so, a genuine McMansion, unlike the pitiful domicile you'd get in Paolo Alto for the same money.


There certainly is a lot of income inequality- I haven't seen much evidence that elected officials are doing especially well at that, though. Maybe you have some different stories to tell?


Me, I like my audio gear, but my daily driver is a 9 year old Honda Element with about 110,000 miles on it. Well maintained, of course, where it counts. I ought to give it a wax job some day...

[Renron]

Jon,
Who said anything about how much Politicians get paid? My son works in the Capitol Building in Sacramento for a Legislator. You could not believe what happens there. It's not their salaries it's their "Perks" and "Gifts" from lobbyists. Mostly their "Entitled" attitudes for themselves while in power. Example;
A Democratic (no surprise in CA) Senator spent >$50k just to remodel his bathroom in Sacramento. This happens all the time.
Look at Harry Reid, he's been in the US Congress for 29 years, Annual pay is ~$193k, but his net worth is ~$10 million dollars. If he never spent a penny it would take him over 50 years to acquire that much $$$. Republicans aren't any different.
Sorry, gotta go, I've got to paint an apartment today.
Ron

[JonMarsh]

Jon,
Who said anything about how much Politicians get paid? My son works in the Capitol Building in Sacramento for a Legislator. You could not believe what happens there. It's not their salaries it's their "Perks" and "Gifts" from lobbyists. Mostly their "Entitled" attitudes for themselves while in power. Example;
A Democratic (no surprise in CA) Senator spent >$50k just to remodel his bathroom in Sacramento. This happens all the time.
Look at Harry Reid, he's been in the US Congress for 29 years, Annual pay is ~$193k, but his net worth is ~$10 million dollars. If he never spent a penny it would take him over 50 years to acquire that much $$$. Republicans aren't any different.
Sorry, gotta go, I've got to paint an apartment today.
Ron

Well, that's an aspect I didn't really give thought to, though I'm peripherally aware of it, and the implications. Guess I'm still just a naive country kid... even if my salary is more than Jerry's.

Enjoy painting the apartment...

[dar47]

Haha, Jon

I think it is world wide, it's not what you earn while serving the people in office, it's what you set up for yourself after you leave office! in Canada we have Senators who are appointed for life not elected, now that is stressless unless you do as Ron says and go overboard on the person expenditures. But remember Canadians don't protest we just make jokes how bad they are.

[Renron]

This is way off topic, I'm sorry, last post on this subject.
Please understand that I personally believe that anyone (Jon) should get paid as much as they can negotiate on their behalf.
Pay inequity is not a problem, trying to "level the playing field" income wise is the problem. A physician or Tech savvy Engineer should not be paid the same as a Dumb Carpenter. (me)
Bravo for your friend's son earning as much as he does.
Income inequality is a slogan created by those who won't put in the necessary effort, but believe the rewards and outcome should be equal to those who do. Basically Type B people (myself) wanting to get paid the same as Type A people. We are all born equal, it changes rapidly after that.

Back on track, my TS Ardents sound better and better each day with more hours on the clock. Better with Bob's Schitt Dac too. Thanks Bob. You'll get it back soon. maybe.........
Ron

[JonMarsh]

BTW, Ron, how soon would you like to get started Sunday AM? 9? 10? Just let me know what works for you. I'm a morning person, BTW.

[Horio]

FYI Hifi Collective is running a 10% off promo until the end of the year (shoot me a PM if you didn't get the email with the code). Combine this with the great USD to GBP rates, and you can find some great deals on components. I took advantage and bought a few more crossover parts.

[JonMarsh]

I wanted too, but don't have any new designs worked out, and I've been using them quite happily a lot this year. Have that code, too... :W

[Horio]

Jon,

Quick crossover question. Do the midrange C3A and C3B capacitors want to be a higher quality capacitor? In the schematic I put together (BD002 Schematic) I show an Obbligato/Z-Superior in parallel but some have recommended something cheaper like a Jantzen Standard Z-Cap. I recall you recommending the use of Obbligatos in these positions (maybe in Bob's thread), but perhaps I misunderstood. I'm not looking to skimp on my build, but if there is no real benefit to a better capacitor I might as well save a few bucks.

What are your thoughts?

[BobEllis]

I was going to test that and see if I could hear a difference. A little gear rolling early on and I figured that if I didn't hear a difference it was just because the rest of the signal chain wasn't up to it. I never got around to testing with a 22 µF cross cap for C3A. I have it set up as depicted.

As you said, it's only a few bucks to remove some doubt later on when you're upgrading your gear. That's going to hurt. I have a Cambridge 851D arriving tomorrow. Now I need to rebuild my Aleph-J to accept balanced inputs and get out the A75.

Hope you start building soon, Horio.

[Renron]

Oooh, Congratulations on the new DAC Bob! Once again you beat me to the goal line.
I look forward to your impressions of the 851.

Horio, in general.............."IN GENERAL" there are always exceptions, if you are using Obbligato (gold quality) caps and not exotics like Clarity MR or Purple $$$ caps then spending money on "better" caps used in parallel won't gain you much, if anything. Caps used in series will provide more "bang for the buck". Higher quality caps in the first stages of a XO will provide better acoustics than using the same quality caps in the last stages of the filter. Hope that makes sense.
Ron

[BobEllis]

Oooh, Congratulations on the new DAC Bob! Once again you beat me to the goal line.
I look forward to your impressions of the 851...

Goal line? After exposure to Jon's gear you think that we will ever stop upgrading? Hopefully this is a way station that will keep me happy for several years, but somehow I doubt that this will be a final destination. I came very close to ordering a Yggy. The price difference leaves room for a decent set of bicycle wheels, and my current set is pretty long in the tooth.

[wkhanna]

way to go on the DAC!
srota wish you had stayed true to your audiophile obsession (obviously our Dark Lord has work to do regarding your training), if only to allow The Maestro a chance to put it on 'the bench'.

[JonMarsh]

Jon,

Quick crossover question. Do the midrange C3A and C3B capacitors want to be a higher quality capacitor? In the schematic I put together (BD002 Schematic) I show an Obbligato/Z-Superior in parallel but some have recommended something cheaper like a Jantzen Standard Z-Cap. I recall you recommending the use of Obbligatos in these positions (maybe in Bob's thread), but perhaps I misunderstood. I'm not looking to skimp on my build, but if there is no real benefit to a better capacitor I might as well save a few bucks.

What are your thoughts?

the Obligatto's are good resonance controlled caps- good bang for the buck, especially from UK's HiFi Collective. the mids are quite important, and the C79 is a pretty transparent driver- I'll go back this evening or tomorrow AM and check over this again and get back to you-

On the one hand, I could say, it depends on how far you plan to take the rest of your system, but what usually happens with Ardent builders is that the speakers sort of drag them into upgrading other stuff, because they're good enough to have a considerable payoff with better source and amplifying gear.

[Wayman]

On the one hand, I could say, it depends on how far you plan to take the rest of your system, but what usually happens with Ardent builders is that the speakers sort of drag them into upgrading other stuff, because they're good enough to have a considerable payoff with better source and amplifying gear.

I can confirm that!

Cheers, Wayne

[BobEllis]

way to go on the DAC!
srota wish you had stayed true to your audiophile obsession (obviously our Dark Lord has work to do regarding your training), if only to allow The Maestro a chance to put it on 'the bench'.

Yeah, I would love to see how a Yggy does on the bench, too. Maybe I'll discover a bunch of money...

[Renron]

On the one hand, I could say, it depends on how far you plan to take the rest of your system, but what usually happens with Ardent builders is that the speakers sort of drag them into upgrading other stuff, because they're good enough to have a considerable payoff with better source and amplifying gear.

That right there is the understatement of the year!

Doc! (shakes fist Doc!)
Then thanks him from his knees remembering E.T. is always near.

Bob,
You are so right, it's a journey without end.
Ron

[JonMarsh]

Jon,

Quick crossover question. Do the midrange C3A and C3B capacitors want to be a higher quality capacitor? In the schematic I put together (BD002 Schematic) I show an Obbligato/Z-Superior in parallel but some have recommended something cheaper like a Jantzen Standard Z-Cap. I recall you recommending the use of Obbligatos in these positions (maybe in Bob's thread), but perhaps I misunderstood. I'm not looking to skimp on my build, but if there is no real benefit to a better capacitor I might as well save a few bucks.

What are your thoughts?

These are used in the high frequency roll off path.

The usual assumption is that shunt is not as important as direct in series- that may be true- but the electrostatic-stiction forces that can occur with the signal in series ALSO occur with it in parallel.


Think of the network as a frequency dependent L-Pad- which it is. Would you want to use a Mundorf on the series side, then an low buck resistor on the parallel side, as any modulation on it due to nonlinearity appears as a signal across the driven device?

The human ear is most sensitive in this frequency range. I like your own redraw of the schematic, and I'd personally recommend staying with that configuration- I would in your shoes... \




(not that that is much of a recommendation- everyone knows I'm crazy... but OTOH, I've heard the difference stuff like Paul Hynes shunt regulators make in a difference, and Schnerzinger cables, and a variety of other things- better speaker caps are relatively mundane and easy choice, in my book. )

It really depends on how far you want to take this-

ponder that I can readily identify 100% of the time the difference between the original Benchmark DAC and the original Berkeley Alpha DAC, on cheap Logitech passive computer speakers. But the better your speaker system is, the more important these differences become in the long run...

And on the other hand, you wouldn't want to have to apologize to ET like Captain Needa did, for using the wrong caps? He has had some influence through the power of the Force on these decisions and evaluations (you know how weak minds are so easily influenced...) :W

[Horio]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I'm going to stick with the schematic I posted, and not worry about the few extra $$.

[Renron]

Because Jon doesn't have enough to do in his (spare) time, I gave him a pair of lower cost NOS Russian PETP 10 Ohm K73-16 capacitors yesterday for testing. These have been reviewed favorably by many, many people. Metal case, hard epoxied end caps silver leads all the good stuff.
We'll see what the Magic Scope says.
Ron

[JonMarsh]

Because Jon doesn't have enough to do in his (spare) time, I gave him a pair of lower cost NOS Russian PETP 10 Ohm K73-16 capacitors yesterday for testing. These have been reviewed favorably by many, many people. Metal case, hard epoxied end caps silver leads all the good stuff.
We'll see what the Magic Scope says.
Ron

The question I have for you, Ron, is if I like them, where do I get more of them?

[Renron]

I purchased mine on Ebay, years ago when they were cheap. They range in value from .01uF to an astonishing 22uF. The price has skyrocketed in recent years, now you can get (6) 10uF for ~$12 plus shipping. For the price they are an incredible value.
I used 3 in the midrange circuit of the Ardent TS you heard at my house. They are all used in the // position to make up the large value caps needed. I also use them as the output coupling caps in my Honey Badger Amp.
As Mikey say's "Try it, you'll like it".
Ron

[JonMarsh]

Well, it looks like I'll have to go snark hunting, especially at those prices...

Found them. Now, what to buy... what to buy...

BTW, all this weirdness from Ron and Bob is rubbing off on me, today I ordered a Schiit Freya Preamp. I'm still not quite believing I did that...




Guess I needed some soft mood lighting for my man cave... let me tell you, I first encountered and used 6SN7's when I was 10 years old... we go back a long ways. :B

That would be back in 1961...

[csmielke]

Jon,
I have been happily using an old Music Reference RM-5 preamp in my system and another benefit is added warmth in the winter. Those in the frigid climates might start thinking tubes! Happy New Years guys.
Chris

[Evil Twin]

Because Jon doesn't have enough to do in his (spare) time, I gave him a pair of lower cost NOS Russian PETP 10 Ohm K73-16 capacitors yesterday for testing. These have been reviewed favorably by many, many people. Metal case, hard epoxied end caps silver leads all the good stuff.
We'll see what the Magic Scope says.
Ron

Interesting.. most interesting. This appears to be the local system equivalent of NOS from the Empire- the similarities are striking.

So, I only think it appropriate that the Empire should strike back, and stock up at these prices... it's doubtful that rebel scum will fully appreciate them, and I have some upcoming small builds that will benefit from a selection of relatively high quality compact low cost parts...

Perhaps I will leave a few left for others to buy... perhaps not.

[Renron]

I have tested them against the Obbligato gold and copper, Audience AuriCap and the lower end Mundorf Mcap Supreme of the same value, The K73-16 stayed in the amp. Listening tests only. YMMV. Mundorf Mcap supreme had cleaner highs but floppier mid and bass, IMO.
I hope I have helped the empire in some small way.
Ron

[Fdas]

I've read all through this thread, and very much enjoyed it.

You guys should form an LLC to sell kits of these speakers. So much engineering effort went into the execution of them, and so few people will ever be able to benefit.

[Renron]

Not too many people would buy a $5,000 kit speaker. Just the weight shipping these beasts would be cost prohibitive. Each one weighs in over 100 Lbs.
Thanks for the kind thoughts thou.
Part of the Allure is to challenge one's skills and become even better at woodworking. Jon's already reached the pinnacle of sparks and wires.
Ron

[BobEllis]

Yep, the market for these is very limited. And a lot of the fun of the build was pushing the boundary of what I thought possible. Although my woodworking/finishing skills aren't up to Ron's level, the question I am asked most often is "where did you get the cabinets?" Somehow the sonic excellence is easier to accept than me having any woodworking skill. Of course most haven't seen the crossovers or bill for the drivers to explain the performance.

A further testament to the resolving power of these speakers:

A couple days ago I was disappointed in the sound from my Ardents for the first time. I am using a Schiit Sys ("Passive preamp" - a two position source selector and volume pot) to switch between my Oppo's outputs and my Cambridge DAC. The former is required for HT use since the 851D will only accept a stereo signal. The Cambridge DAC didn't sound up to snuff, but I wrote it off to not feeling well. Yesterday I noticed that I had the Sys' cheap volume control backed down to about 10 dB of attenuation. Back to no attenuation and all is well again. Time to get cranking on a proper switch without a pot.

[JonMarsh]

Time to get cranking on a proper switch without a pot.

That's the right idea... :B

[JonMarsh]

Jon,
I have been happily using an old Music Reference RM-5 preamp in my system and another benefit is added warmth in the winter. Those in the frigid climates might start thinking tubes! Happy New Years guys.
Chris

As frigid as our Northern CA weather has been this December and January, I wish I was listening to the 80W/CH Class A amp I have on the drawing boards...