Official Wavecor Ardent Reference Thread - How we realized the Dream

[Renron]

Happily listening to my Ardents at medium volume. They can play loud enough to drive anyone out of the room.
Thanks Jon!

[Zvu]

Nice...

http://www.audioxpress.com/article/test-bench-wavecor-sw223bd03-8-75-inch-high-xmax-subwoofer

[JonMarsh]

Back to the issue of sensitivity...
do you think it is possible to increase the sensitivity of Ardents by
- utilizing the acoustuic elegance woofers (that have sensitivity >94-95 dB/2.83V)
- increasing the volume to 70-80 liters?

70 to 80L would not be enough volume increase to provide the same bass extension at high efficiency. Hoffman's iron law rules that out- sensitivity and LF bandwidth are inextricably linked to enclosure volume.

The C79 does not have the efficiency to match up with the Acoustic Elegance drivers. For that, you need something like the C173-6-90, as used in the Avalon Isis or my own build. then you'll need a 93 dB efficient tweeter, such as the newer ScanSpeak Beryllium dome. And probably should plan on 140 to 160L. A bigger version of these.






And you'll still have to give up 4-5 dB for baffle step compensation. True 90 dB for 2.83VRMS speakers are very rare, and usually somewhat low impedance. These will both, about 3 ohms through the bass region, with three 9 ohm woofers in parallel, with six passive radiators. All of that comes with a steep BOM cost, about $15K.

[neuro]

You could go MTM, whats another $1k in parts cost ?
Now you will need a lower noise floor amp compared to what would be acceptable on the original design, maybe more $ .
You should be able to keep the baffle width so at least that input to the xover design is constant. You could keep the low to mid xover frequency but then you'd be "wasting" some of the potential of adding another mid. I believe MTMs have their own body of xover design theory, so it may be a dead end to try and minimally modify the original crossover (where minimally at least means changing (nearly?) every component in the mid to get the same FR for double drivers, plus changes to the high and low networks to account for the new sensitivity goal).
On the other end of the number of mids spectrum, could go to zero instead of two. The AE woofers tend to stretch up high and the SS tweeter stretches relatively low. That probably deserves its own thread for discussion though...

[Scottg]

The midrange also limit's efficiency. Even some gain from diffraction is largely higher in freq. (..due to the unique baffle shape). On top of that you'll have some losses from the crossover.

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-5-midrange/accuton-c90-6-079-5-ceramic-dome-midrange/

The design would need a complete re-work (different driver selection for midrange and woofers) to get substantively greater efficiency.

If you like this design but need more power from a well-reputed amplifier design, consider "DIY" nCore amplifiers.



It's a very nice design, but it isn't an efficient design - and if that's something you are after you'll need to look elsewhere. ops:

[Antonio Tucci]

Back to the issue of sensitivity...
do you think it is possible to increase the sensitivity of Ardents by
- utilizing the acoustuic elegance woofers (that have sensitivity >94-95 dB/2.83V)
- increasing the volume to 70-80 liters?

[Renron]

Troublemaker #2 here.........
Thanks for putting us back on track here digitalMaven.
Ron

[DigitalMaven]

They sound extremely good compared to my laptop speakers...;>)

[JonMarsh]

Ron, just to be sure I'm getting the correct message here, let me put it in plain English:

Long term, the high priced "exotic car" is cheaper than the high priced "exotic girl friend/wife". Yes?

Well, Doh, of course!

Not that I've really ever had one of the latter, though I've dabbled at the low end of the former (NSX) (still have it).

OTOH, in many cases, this rule applies even for the not so exotic girlfriend... how you pick and select is critically important. Some lessons are only learned the painful way...

I think a little unrelated and visually satisfying wisdom is never a bad thing to have in a thread; it's humanizing; but then, I'm certainly not the worlds best (or strictest) moderator, and often personally guilty of breaking the "rules" .


:B

[Steve Manning]

This came across my desk today, thought I'd share some timeless wisdom with you'll .
Mods. Feel free to delete this if you see fit.
Sorry, this is completely off topic. But so worth it if I get scolded.
Ron

Now who's the troublemaker!

[Renron]

Completely off topic

This came across my desk today, thought I'd share some timeless wisdom with you'll .
Mods. Feel free to delete this if you see fit.
Sorry, this is completely off topic. But so worth it if I get scolded.
Ron

[Renron]

Is it my monitor, ? or does the guy on the right wearing a sweater look like he has Australian Shepard eyes? One brown one blue?

Thanks for the Compliment Jon, right back at 'cha. Superior intellect and generosity. I understand about 1/3 of what he says but it's always interesting.

Ron

[JonMarsh]

And Ron is very DEFINITELY good people- I know from first hand in person experience! :T

I'm back from Villach Austria, but work is crazy busy, presenting webinars for European teams in the morning today and Asia in the evening. It's a long day when you do that... :W

I can vouch for the Alison Kraus, have most all of her and Union Station's albums, in more of a bluegrass spin, but very good recording, check out the Nickel Creek album. Oh, it's very good music, too! Even if you think you don't like bluegrass...





I'd go for the vinyl version or the SACD if you can find it... even the 44.1kHz layer is pretty good, but the DSD rip/conversion to 24/176.4 is better...

[Renron]

Y'alls always welcome 'round these parts, if'n yer ever in the neighborhood. Good BBQ, good friends and good music. Pretty much open invitation for the forum members, good group of Folks here.
Ron

[scottvalentin]

I might be a different vintage than you guys but I would also hang out with you both!

[BobEllis]

Yep, that's a close second.

[Renron]

Bob, Damn it, I wish we lived closer. We would hang out all the time.
" The Perfect Country and Western Song" by David Allen Coe. If you can't stand it just skip to 3:00 for the best part of the song and how it got it's title. :boohoo:
8x)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_qfujQ_jTQ

[BobEllis]

My favorite country song from back when I was in high school.

https://www.google.com/search?q=tom+t+hall+i+like+beer&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari

[dar47]

Ron everybody needs those "lying, cheating, somebody done somebody wrong songs" once in a while,lol.

I agree there are lots of well recorded country albums. I was just steaming CD quality, Tidal country play lists the other night with a coffee in hand while reading on the notebook. A few tunes just kind of grabbed my attention, who knew Lady Gaga sounds great doing country tunes.

[Renron]

The Ardents are so good they make country music sounds sweet,:-y:^x:hb

Hey now! Some of the best recordings I have on disc are country music. They actually care what it sounds like. "I 'ain't in it jest fer the money". Listen to an Alison Krauss disc and get back to me on that.

Listening to anything through Bluetooth is an adventure in futility. Compression upon compression, clip out a few digits here and some more there. What the heck, it's digital right? It all sound the same, it's either a 1 or a 0 right? Uh-huh.
Ron

[BobEllis]

Absolutely correct. I'm finding that music I could only handle as background music is now engaging.

[dar47]

The Ardents are so good they make country music sounds sweet,:-y:^x:hb

[DigitalMaven]

I went back and looked at the video again...looks like he changed the tweeter to berylium neodium + new mid range + new crossover + maybe repairing original woofer...lots of changes without any controls...

[BobEllis]

I didn't watch the whole thing, but the voicing was notably different. Ok they made a different speaker that sounded better in the JBL box. How much of the improvement was due to voicing and how much the tweeter? Did he change the crossover at all or just drop the new tweeter in? How was this recorded? Webcam?

Played back through oppo bdp103 to Pass Aleph-J to Ardent there wasn't any of the goodness that separates a 6640 from a Seas Excel tweeter and makes it worthwhile. It may have been there in the room, but it wasn't in the recording. You might get something useful if the sound was recorded with top flight gear and you could download a high res file, but even then we're talking about subtle details. Maybe not Japan, but you'd be well served to go to a DIY meet or a high end store nearby to listen to a system that uses the tweeter you're interested in.

Who knows, Ron or Jon might take something interesting to a show. If you were closer I'd say come on over and listen. Then I'd show you what room placement can do.

[DigitalMaven]

I do...find them useful...I use the high end sony bluetooth headphones and for bluetooth they're very good. Sure its not perfect but its a helluva lot cheaper than flying to japan and could save you some time in narrowing things down. In that same demo you can hear the difference in base attack as well....

The whole point of the video was to show how much of a difference the beryllium tweeter can have on the overall smoothness and increased sensitivity. So if you have a great $400+ beryllium tweeter that last 10% makes the booze that much smoother...

[BobEllis]

Yes, you can hear a difference in tone, but there is nowhere near the detail level you'll get out of actually listening to a 6640 properly implemented. It just doesn't mean much to me. I don't know the JBL speaker in question, but isn't that demo it a bit like comparing the sound of a Ford to a Ferrari? I firmly believe that if the differences were more subtle, like comparing an Ardent with a 6600 and a 6640 (no crossover change required) you wouldn't hear a difference on YouTube. You probably would hear a subtle difference in a live comparison, assuming that you are feeding them suitable quality recordings.

If you find YouTube demos useful, then by all means use them. I just feel that they can't demonstrate the differences when you are getting up to the absolute last few percent of performance that we are discussing here.

[DigitalMaven]

I use this youtube video to hear the difference between original jbl tweater and Berylium tweater...skip the the first 5 minutes as rambling...

https://youtu.be/8xm8f7tJ1LU

[Renron]

Bob,
Mostly because I was incredibly lucky that the mids and tweeters were on sale when I bought them. Also, fortunate that Jon donated his extremely rare free time to redesign the Mid range XO for the Scan Speaks I used. Retail market price difference between the Accuton mids and Scan Speak mids is about $100 for the pair. In which case I simply would have used the Accuton drivers. I REALLY like the way my SS mids sound, although I've never heard the Accuton mid to compare....
Ron

[BobEllis]

From all reports, you hit a sweet spot on this build, Ron. Getting 98% of the performance and enough left over to pay for a nice DAC. Hard to beat.

[Renron]

Instead of YouTube, just build what sounds good to YOUR ears. The Ardent is not intended as a build for everyone. I built Mid Priced Ardents. Y$MMV.
Ron

[BobEllis]

I've never understood the concept of a YouTube demonstration. Most gear is going to have better performance than the YouTube codecs and likely the microphone and recording chain used so you won't learn anything useful.

If you like a high frequency roll off you can design that into any system. I'd suggest going back through the threads and finding the one about response shaping. Or read Linkwitz, since he started the idea that speakers should be voiced with a slight downward tilt. A general slope of a couple of dB over the whole bandwidth. I've experimented with this digitally and find it is helpful on a range of speakers. The Ardent crossover for the current -02 woofers includes this tilt. Try it instead of a 10K roll off. You might like it.

[DigitalMaven]

I cant seem to find a demo of these on youtube (Ardent). Someone please post a quality video in the future if you can. The confusion towards my comment about the tweeter might be that the more expensive tweeter does not have as pronounced rolloff compared to the seas h1212. I tend to like the rolloff after 10kz because it feels more natural to me. But yes even a 10% improvement in perceived sound quality might be worth it with the more expensive tweeter.

[dar47]

I agree Ron I have had both the Seas drivers as well and they never made my heart skip a beat although good value.

Interesting how this pride of ownership thing can also work the other way around when a well designed modestly price build is so good and you built them your self, it must be as good as all those high priced builds! I think if you are happy with your speaks no need to go further but if you have the cash and time there is another level that has a lot of value. Pride of ownership aside the Ardents allowed me to find the level I could afford for the gear in front of the speaks which has out stripped the build cost of the Ardents. As was mentioned 3 DAC, 2 pre-amps and 2 different amps. Could I again change gear in front of course but that would now just be a mans pride thing. Another DAC well probably have to double the cost of this $5000. DAC, another Pre well again double the cost over $4000. and amp probably triple. That I would say is fools gold for me anyways. For me the Ardents were the speaker that allowed me to get to my comfortable system level in a controled manner noting real improvements and allowed me to very easily push the stop button, haha.

Oh and that doesn't include al the demo gear I tried and didn't bite on. That has value to!

[Renron]

Regarding the Seas H1212, the 27TDFC are comparable. I really like the Seas 27TDFC (series) tweeters and have used them in several builds. I also own a pair of Seas Millennial tweeters with the copper band. They both reproduce high notes very well and (mostly) without too much distortion. But in listening and swapping one for another in the same cabinet I can tell you without a doubt that they are not in the same league. Is the cost difference worth the additional charges? Meh. Depends upon what your design goals are in relationship to cost. For most people, and most builds I would say not worth the extra $$$. HOWEVER.
The Ardents were not designed to "affordable" to the masses who build with MDF. They were designed to be the best sounding speaker for the size cabinet acceptable by SWMBO.
My wife didn't like the looks when I showed them to her online, once built she loves the look. I love the look and the sound. I chose to use the 6600 and not the 6640 because I am OK with the price/performance ratio. Everyone has to decide where their $ "comfort" zone is. The Ardent is not the Volkswagen of speakers.
Ron

[ergo]

I can concur that in the space we listened in, that was a family room + open kitchen behind it of about 40m2 total the Cambridge amp had no issues to drive the Ardents to levels where Jon's friend had to remind him of the neighbours few times
Antonio - what is the size of the room you have for your system and do you have private home or also neighbours to think of. 100W is probably enough most of the time. The only time of trouble might be if you have freedom to crank up volume without disturbing anyone - in such case very clean speakers tend to sound so good that one wants to keep increasing the volume.

On my side I did send in an inquiry to audiohobby.eu for all of the drivers. Waiting for quote now and planning to put in an order as soon as it comes. If one/some of the drivers are not available from there then I'd need to look around in EU side to find alternate sources.

[BobEllis]

Placebo Vs. reality...

Yep, I'm sure there is a bit of pride of ownership and expectation built in. But considering I wasn't hearing a difference in electronics before these and now it's readily apparent I'm convinced there's a lot of reality in my perception, too. I was a skeptic/disbeliever about the value of super expensive drivers and boutique capacitors before this build. It's changed my mind. Try it if you have a need for a reference quality speaker, it might change your perspective.

[JonMarsh]

The Dayton RSS315HF subwoofer remains my favorite sub that I use very often in my home theater. I don't think I'm about to toss my Skaaning SK300 on ebay however. It would make a great music-only sub in my listening room, where I don't have to reproduce explosions and sound effects."

I can relate to this- I like the 315HF quite a bit too, and when I have more room someday, will build something with them...

My amplifier is a particular one.
I realized it last year. It springs from an idea and project of Bartolomeo Aloia, a true guru in Italy and Europe. He is an electronic engineer, with a very long experience in the audio industry. Now he has more than seventy years and has created a particular system, called Antu, including a tube preamplifier (Antu-pre) and a solid-state power amplifier (Antu-100). This device is underpinned by a particular philosophy; he took about 10 pages to describe it (the philosophy), in the 3 articles he published on “Costruire HiFi”.
The main characteristics of the system are:
• preamplifier with undistorted 20 V output (and very low impedance);
• inductive power supply for both sections (preamplifier and power amplifier);
• class A for the power amplifier;
• output spectrum (from the power amplifier) similar to that of tube amplifiers (that is, monotonically decreasing);
• 100 Watt on 8 ohm and 180 Watt on 4 ohm.

My knowledge in speaker building is rather limited but I have a some experience in audio amplifiers (I have realized a SE 845 , a SE 300B, and a SE 6C33C… and some SS amplifier). My experience in HiFi world is long-standing but I have never heard anything that, even remotely, sounds like Antu.
It is another world if compared with classD amplifiers. It has the sweetness of tubes and the power of a solid state.

So, for all these reasons, I don’t want give up my amplifier system.

I can totally relate to that- I feel the same way about my Halcro DM68's and my TotalDAC. Not quite as convinced about my DM10- I have a friend in Munich with a heavily modified (by Schnerzinger) Chorale preamp that I would kill for under the right circumstances (that I could get away with it).


OTOH, I might point out that a bit over a week ago we demo'd what used to be my pair of Wavecor Ardent's for Ergo, when he was in town (in the Bay Area) so to speak, and just with a Cambridge Audio 651W, a 100W/8 ohm amplifier- as is the norm, we kept the volume down because my friend who owns them now lives in a Condo, but for a few cuts (Jacque Lousier trio live recording, Elton Jon "ballad of a well known gun" (ripped from DSD layer of SACD) and Lorde "Tennis Court" and "Royals" we let loose (this was just in the mid afternoon, after all) and Ergo seemed a bit surprised at how well the Cambridge drove them with nominally demanding material and how loud- before we even started, we acknowledged they were being demo's on "mid fi" electronics.

Now, this is not a large living room, and the Ardent's are a remarkably easy load to drive (just look at the impedance magnitude and phase curve- makes an Avalon Indra look like it was designed by someone not very skilled in the art, so to speak...). but a quality 100W is not a bad thing at all... 200W is just 3 dB more headroom.

[DigitalMaven]

With the caveat that I have not used an H1212 with Clarity Cap MR or CMR in the circuit, I'll say that the performance of the Be dome performs at least twice as well as the H1212. Look at distortion figures for part of the reason. Ron's description of the details he hears with his Scan 6600s is better than I could describe it. The smiles I get listening to my Ardents and the reaction of non audiophile friends (usually along the lines of "I didn't know speakers could sound so good.") make it all well worth the price for me.

The 6640 still a significant jump up from the Seas E0006, with the same capacitor caveat. That will change someday, I have the MRs to replace the caps in my speakers using the E0006. The performance difference between the 6600 and 6640 is probably very small, well up on the steep part of the diminishing returns curve.

Placebo Vs. reality...

Here's a scary example...a comparison between a $130 Dayton woofer and a $700 skanning woofer...

Zaph claims that every thing below 90 hz is better on a skanning but not by much and above 90hz there is no difference...thats what $500 gets you plus a little extra sensitivity...

"Both drivers are 12" and 4 ohms but the similarities end there. These are two vastly different drivers. Here are some differences:

Cone material - Dayton: aluminum, Skaaning: polypropelene
Motor design - Dayton: copper rings above and below gap, Skaaning: copper sleeve through gap
Suspension - Dayton: very stiff, Skaaning: very compliant
Excursion - Dayton: 14mm, Skaaning: 10mm
Sensitivity - Dayton: 86dB, Skaaning: 90dB
Origin - Dayton: China, Skaaning: Denmark
Price - Dayton: $130, Skaaning: $700

What does it all mean? Well, in a complete shocker, the $700 woofer outperforms the $130 woofer. Not by much, however, and the lead disappears above 90 Hz. Both are excellent performers, and we're basically comparing goodness at a price that's a steal with greatness at a price that's outrageous. Note that there's enough difference between these woofers that these results are not an argument in favor of my Woofers with lower Xmax sound better rant, but I'm sure some aspects of that argument are true.

The Dayton RSS315HF subwoofer remains my favorite sub that I use very often in my home theater. I don't think I'm about to toss my Skaaning SK300 on ebay however. It would make a great music-only sub in my listening room, where I don't have to reproduce explosions and sound effects."

http://www.zaphaudio.com/tidbits/

[dar47]

Hey tek, congrats on the Mod designation and be careful with those cheeky footnotes, haha

[dar47]

Original design Ardent first version was centered around the mid not the tweet and it's very clean neutral sound. I describe it as having all the detail without calling any attention to itself. Most other 3 way designs I have heard tend to have a stronger mid signature, not the Ardent. for the Wavecor Ardent, Jon applied lessens learned from the Isiris that was design before the Wavecor version after first version Ardent. Along came this new woofer and we all wondered if it could bring the Ardent up a notch. As is noted most would be content with the 6600 but the 6640 really starts to payoff with better recordings and front end gear.

Antonio, thanks for the response will have to check the links out.

[TEK]

Thanks to all for your "encouraging" replies.

My amplifier is a particular one.
I realized it last year. It springs from an idea and project of Bartolomeo Aloia, a true guru in Italy and Europe. He is an electronic engineer, with a very long experience in the audio industry. Now he has more than seventy years and has created a particular system, called Antu, including a tube preamplifier (Antu-pre) and a solid-state power amplifier (Antu-100). This device is underpinned by a particular philosophy; he took about 10 pages to describe it (the philosophy), in the 3 articles he published on “Costruire HiFi”.
The main characteristics of the system are:
• preamplifier with undistorted 20 V output (and very low impedance);
• inductive power supply for both sections (preamplifier and power amplifier);
• class A for the power amplifier;
• output spectrum (from the power amplifier) similar to that of tube amplifiers (that is, monotonically decreasing);
• 100 Watt on 8 ohm and 180 Watt on 4 ohm.

My knowledge in speaker building is rather limited but I have a some experience in audio amplifiers (I have realized a SE 845 , a SE 300B, and a SE 6C33C… and some SS amplifier). My experience in HiFi world is long-standing but I have never heard anything that, even remotely, sounds like Antu.
It is another world if compared with classD amplifiers. It has the sweetness of tubes and the power of a solid state.

So, for all these reasons, I don’t want give up my amplifier system.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_qdJZu9_iQwRk44bDA0RHpPdEU/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_qdJZu9_iQwazIzTjQ2QUxjSzA/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_q...ew?usp=sharing

From what you write here, my understanding is that you have selected to build your system around your amplifier.
I think that is a fully acceptable approach.
As you have already noted, The Wavecore Ardents have quite lov sensitivity.
So, you should evaluate if they are right for you given that condition. And the answare is not nessesarly yes...

[BobEllis]

With the caveat that I have not used an H1212 with Clarity Cap MR or CMR in the circuit, I'll say that the performance of the Be dome performs at least twice as well as the H1212. Look at distortion figures for part of the reason. Ron's description of the details he hears with his Scan 6600s is better than I could describe it. The smiles I get listening to my Ardents and the reaction of non audiophile friends (usually along the lines of "I didn't know speakers could sound so good.") make it all well worth the price for me.

The 6640 still a significant jump up from the Seas E0006, with the same capacitor caveat. That will change someday, I have the MRs to replace the caps in my speakers using the E0006. The performance difference between the 6600 and 6640 is probably very small, well up on the steep part of the diminishing returns curve.

[DigitalMaven]

Ron, thank you for your statement.
Indeed, I was discouraged to attend this forum. A group represents an advantage if it is based on an open and unconditional discussion/comparison, otherwise it is not a group but a sect.
In general, people's thoughts must always be taken into consideration, without any prejudice or preclusion. If you do not agree, fight the thought but never the person !
I did not say that Ardents are not good speakers, on the contrary, I think they are excellent speakers. I simply pointed up that their low sensitivity may represent a limit.
So, I would have expected replies about that point (sensitivity) and not others (even less … competence and capabilities of the interlocutor).

If I say that a weak point of the Ferrari SF70H is its low aerodynamic efficiency … the team cannot reply with arguments demonstrating the very good characteristiscs of the engine and/or gearbox. A wise and rational reply should focus on the aerodynamic efficiency, "demonstrating" that it is not low at all or, alternatively, that it does not influence the final result.
I hope my little English will be sufficient to transfer the thought.

I think it might be safe to say that Marsh is matching the other components (Tweeter, Midrange) to meet the needs of his desired woofers. I personally Like paper hybrids vs. ceramics and metal drivers. I do like metal domes if well engineered like the seas h1212 and the beryllium dome that marsh used in this design. But it is also ten times the cost of the seas h1212 and the question should be does it offer at least twice the performance for the additional cost?

[Antonio Tucci]

Thanks to all for your "encouraging" replies.

My amplifier is a particular one.
I realized it last year. It springs from an idea and project of Bartolomeo Aloia, a true guru in Italy and Europe. He is an electronic engineer, with a very long experience in the audio industry. Now he has more than seventy years and has created a particular system, called Antu, including a tube preamplifier (Antu-pre) and a solid-state power amplifier (Antu-100). This device is underpinned by a particular philosophy; he took about 10 pages to describe it (the philosophy), in the 3 articles he published on “Costruire HiFi”.
The main characteristics of the system are:
• preamplifier with undistorted 20 V output (and very low impedance);
• inductive power supply for both sections (preamplifier and power amplifier);
• class A for the power amplifier;
• output spectrum (from the power amplifier) similar to that of tube amplifiers (that is, monotonically decreasing);
• 100 Watt on 8 ohm and 180 Watt on 4 ohm.

My knowledge in speaker building is rather limited but I have a some experience in audio amplifiers (I have realized a SE 845 , a SE 300B, and a SE 6C33C… and some SS amplifier). My experience in HiFi world is long-standing but I have never heard anything that, even remotely, sounds like Antu.
It is another world if compared with classD amplifiers. It has the sweetness of tubes and the power of a solid state.

So, for all these reasons, I don’t want give up my amplifier system.

[Renron]

Digital Maven,
Welcome to the Loony Bin. :blink:
Your statement is quite valid IMO. I cannot describe the pleasure I get when listening to these speakers when I can hear the tone of the wood inside a violin / fiddle. The sparkle then decay of a High Hat cymbal or the wooden drumstick smack the rim of a drum. It's a warm and fuzzy feeling that makes me smile. I've been to Burning Amp many times and have had the opportunity to hear some high end speakers (although not in an appropriate setting) and the Ardents can hold their own just fine.

Concerning the sensitivity or lack thereof, I generally listen in my medium sized room at ~ -20dB. -15dB and the wife unit leaves the room, too loud. Volume is not an issue for me.