Official Wavecor Ardent Reference Thread - How we realized the Dream

[ergo]

I've added the box plans download links into the OneNote 'Box build' section. Both the PDF and PNG variation.

Steve - you can download the OneNote *.onepkg file from here
This is a current state 'drop' ... the OneNote Online version will update on fly as I do changes, but for off-line version like this I would of course need to export every now and then to keep it current.

I've started to draw the plans also into Fusion360 with parametric modelling, so that all material thickness's could be adjusted and model updates accordingly. I have front panel ready, but rest of it is on todo list still. Once I have that I will share that too.

[Steve Manning]

Try this
Ergo's Wavecor Ardent Onenote

I have not started my build yet as summertime went to all sort of jobs related to the house renovation and improving the workshop, but I did some pre-work in winter/spring time to gather what I tough was most useful info about this build from the thread. Hope it open in browser version of OneNote.

Ergo

PS. I could create a write access link if someone is willing to contribute in improving this document further.

Ergo is there a way of downloading this document?

[JonMarsh]

I will do this. I also got an email from him about the high resolution PNG derived PDFs, and those will go out to him this morning, too, once I'm home.

[TEK]

Jon, maybe you could add a link to Ergos notes in the start of the thread? It will be hard to find down here with all the other stuff going on.

[JonMarsh]

Great job! Steal from the best- the best from the two threads about this build!

Anyone that needs high resolution PDF's of the piece parts, PM me, and I'll email or setup DropBox link for you. Turns out only I can access the high resolution PDFs for download from my Photo-bucket Pro account.

[JonMarsh]

Great job! Steal from the best- the best from the two threads about this build!

Anyone that needs high resolution PDF's of the piece parts, PM me, and I'll email or setup DropBox link for you. Turns out only I can access the high resolution PDFs for download from my Photo-bucket Pro account.

[Steve Manning]

Try this
Ergo's Wavecor Ardent Onenote

I have not started my build yet as summertime went to all sort of jobs related to the house renovation and improving the workshop, but I did some pre-work in winter/spring time to gather what I tough was most useful info about this build from the thread. Hope it open in browser version of OneNote.

Ergo

PS. I could create a write access link if someone is willing to contribute in improving this document further.

Very nice document Ergo!

[ergo]

Try this
Ergo's Wavecor Ardent Onenote

I have not started my build yet as summertime went to all sort of jobs related to the house renovation and improving the workshop, but I did some pre-work in winter/spring time to gather what I tough was most useful info about this build from the thread. Hope it open in browser version of OneNote.

Ergo

PS. I could create a write access link if someone is willing to contribute in improving this document further.

[Horio]

Tek,

There is a modified crossover design for the newer wavecor drives (02's), which is what I will be using for my build. I've got a full set of drivers and half of the crossover parts sitting at home, but I've been lacking the time to get started. I'm considering having Steve help me get started.

[TEK]

If anyone download all the images and maybe collects it in a pdf, maybe it would be a nice return to the community to make it available as a package to the rest of the forum?

BTW: what is the current status? Is there a complete parts list and crossover schema for a version using the newer wavecore drivers?
This thread is getting very long so I just wonder if it is easy for new potential builders to find
the info they need. Maybe a good idea to add a note and a short link to key info about the Wavecore2 edition in the
initial post?

[JonMarsh]

How to get high resolution construction PNG's

Anyone that needs high resolution versions of the construction PDF/PNG files, the way to do that is as follows:

PM me. I have made them.

No one besides me can download the original high resolution PNF files (I found out). They're the same as the images displayed on the first page, just sharper and will print better on large format printers.

[Steve Manning]

You guys who might be asking Steve for assistance with your builds are in for a treat, he is a true professional and a quality craftsman. We have discussed a few things over Emails and I would highly recommend his services. Won't be cheap, quality never is.
Ron

Thank you Ron, that's very kind of you.

[Renron]

You guys who might be asking Steve for assistance with your builds are in for a treat, he is a true professional and a quality craftsman. We have discussed a few things over Emails and I would highly recommend his services. Won't be cheap, quality never is.
Ron

[Steve Manning]

Yeah... like my initial prototype build was such a exemplary example of practicality and simplicity... but you did take it to new levels! :T. :W

I thought "practical" was your middle name!

[JonMarsh]

Yeah... like my initial prototype build was such a exemplary example of practicality and simplicity... but you did take it to new levels! :T. :W

[Steve Manning]

Hey Ron,


Geez, that's hitting home a little close- that's pretty much what Steve looked like when I showed him the first plans for the Minervas...


Or maybe that was me when he told me how much it would cost? I don't remember clearly... so much water under the bridge since then!

I think the later since I was the one that came up with the crazy ass cabinet design

[JonMarsh]

Hey Ron,


Geez, that's hitting home a little close- that's pretty much what Steve looked like when I showed him the first plans for the Minervas...


Or maybe that was me when he told me how much it would cost? I don't remember clearly... so much water under the bridge since then!

[Steve Manning]

Are you sure you want Fdas to do that? (jk)

Wise guy!

Fdas, despite the peanut gallery ..... if you think you might be interested drop me a PM and we can talk. Steve

[Renron]

talk to Steve- he does great contract work- did the Minerva cabinets for me, and a set of Ardent cabinets might be well within possibility for him to take on.

Are you sure you want Fdas to do that? (jk)

[JonMarsh]

talk to Steve- he does great contract work- did the Minerva cabinets for me, and a set of Ardent cabinets might be well within possibility for him to take on.

[Fdas]

Los Angeles.

[Steve Manning]

Given that I am going to be unable to build the Wavecor Ardents, and I don't think any of you guys are selling yours, I'm willing to accept this isn't 100% as good as that, but it does seem reasonable to assume it's a fairly good value considering the drivers they used.

@renron : I agree, the Ardent cabinet is fantastic and I wish it was possible for me to build.

Overall, this seems like a pretty reasonable speaker to target as part of a very high quality home audio system? I was thinking of hypex nCore amps, something like this? https://www.nordacoustics.co.uk/prod...-one-nc500dmst

That should be adequate to drive these speakers, right?

There is always the option of having someone build them for you? Where are you located?

[Fdas]

They may be... the price for a built speaker with that kind of hardware is quite low (Avalon gets about $30K with their cabinet).


Now, you should be aware that there are several Accuton midranges at different price points that from the front look the same, but trust me (I've measured them all) they don't work the same, and the C79 is the lowest in nonlinear and linear distortion.

Looking online at the best images I can find for these, I can't really tell for certain whether or not these use the Wavecor woofers, but it does LOOK like they do. OTOH, given they rate the sensitivity at 87 dB, and the impedance at 4 ohms, they must be using the nominal 8 ohm woofers in parallel, instead of using the 4 ohm version in series. Why is that important? Well, the 8 ohm version is really, like most 8 ohm drivers, about 6 ohms, and parallel two with a low loss crossover and you typically get a net impedance of around 2.5 ohms in the mid bass/low midrange. Tricky for some amps to drive. The Wavecor Ardent's are a very easy load, at about 5 ohms across the whole spectrum, except for the LF resonance, where it goes up higher. See the data earlier on.

We've thought about doing an Ardent with PR's, but actually the concept as Steve Manning has proposed it is styled more like some Wilson Audio speakers. It would work very well on paper with a net internal volume of about 60-70L; that is rather a bit more than the Ardent's 40L. The Ardent was designed to be as compact as possible, for WAF, and it seems to have met that goal for most of the builders.

But yeah, this looks to be a pretty good deal as long as you have a solid amplifier at low impedances. Certainly it's very good value compared with a lot of commercial speakers. but it may be built to a price, and may not have the C79. That's something I'd ask them about.

Given that I am going to be unable to build the Wavecor Ardents, and I don't think any of you guys are selling yours, I'm willing to accept this isn't 100% as good as that, but it does seem reasonable to assume it's a fairly good value considering the drivers they used.

@renron : I agree, the Ardent cabinet is fantastic and I wish it was possible for me to build.

Overall, this seems like a pretty reasonable speaker to target as part of a very high quality home audio system? I was thinking of hypex nCore amps, something like this? https://www.nordacoustics.co.uk/prod...-one-nc500dmst

That should be adequate to drive these speakers, right?

[Renron]

Parade rainer here,
On looks alone I prefer the Ardents cabinet with the facets it's very modern / classical in it's styling.
On price, those are a steal if that's the C79 with Wavecore woofers. I built the midpriced Ardents and my parts/wood costs alone were close to Salks price per pair. If he's using our parts with a ribbon tweeter and HIGH QUALITY XO components he's not making much per pair.

OTOH, I bet they sound pretty damn good. However, my Ardents sound Great!
Ron

[JonMarsh]

Is this pretty close to the Wavecore Ardents for someone who can't build shit?

http://www.salksound.com/model.php?model=SoundScape+8

They may be... the price for a built speaker with that kind of hardware is quite low (Avalon gets about $30K with their cabinet).


Now, you should be aware that there are several Accuton midranges at different price points that from the front look the same, but trust me (I've measured them all) they don't work the same, and the C79 is the lowest in nonlinear and linear distortion.

Looking online at the best images I can find for these, I can't really tell for certain whether or not these use the Wavecor woofers, but it does LOOK like they do. OTOH, given they rate the sensitivity at 87 dB, and the impedance at 4 ohms, they must be using the nominal 8 ohm woofers in parallel, instead of using the 4 ohm version in series. Why is that important? Well, the 8 ohm version is really, like most 8 ohm drivers, about 6 ohms, and parallel two with a low loss crossover and you typically get a net impedance of around 2.5 ohms in the mid bass/low midrange. Tricky for some amps to drive. The Wavecor Ardent's are a very easy load, at about 5 ohms across the whole spectrum, except for the LF resonance, where it goes up higher. See the data earlier on.

We've thought about doing an Ardent with PR's, but actually the concept as Steve Manning has proposed it is styled more like some Wilson Audio speakers. It would work very well on paper with a net internal volume of about 60-70L; that is rather a bit more than the Ardent's 40L. The Ardent was designed to be as compact as possible, for WAF, and it seems to have met that goal for most of the builders.

But yeah, this looks to be a pretty good deal as long as you have a solid amplifier at low impedances. Certainly it's very good value compared with a lot of commercial speakers. but it may be built to a price, and may not have the C79. That's something I'd ask them about.

[Fdas]

Is this pretty close to the Wavecore Ardents for someone who can't build shit?

http://www.salksound.com/model.php?model=SoundScape+8

[Renron]

Yeah, that fitting in thing is hard......... 6 years ago we moved into the house we're in now because there was no HOA, now the nose and busy body neighbors have started an Architectural Committee, sending out nasty notes about garbage cans left out for more than one day and such. Time to move. This time to 5 acres with NO nothing except a well and a good fence. Why do people think they have to run others lives.....Rant out!
Ron

[JonMarsh]

The Honda has been sold to an old friend who has a 95 Land Cruiser she bought new back then, and has never had it in 4 wheel drive- doesn't know how to use the transfer case. She's taken good care of it, just crossed 300K miles, but she wanted something inexpensive and economical... still has the Land Cruiser, but is nervous about taking it on long trips. May give it to her daughter...

And as I get used to the slightly numb steering and other idiosyncrasies, I do have to say the FJ is growing on me quite a bit- especially considering how differently it does things for only a few hundred pounds more weight. The radio, OTOH, is sort of impressive looking, but really mediocre in performance. Gotta do something about that.

you know, Ron, I'm pretty much used to not fitting in, in a conventional sense, pretty much anywhere! But yeah, I wonder if you don't have to have a special pass to bring an Element into Idaho more than one time...

OTOH, I did strike up a conversation with a "mature" guy at a Starbucks in Boise who was also driving an Element, and after we got done congratulating each other on our good taste in cars, talked about what he does up there- actually involved in financial services for smaller companies in the Bay Area that are wanting to relocate functional groups in start up efforts up to Idaho, because the overhead is so much lower, and you can pay engineers a lot less when the homes cost 1/5 to 1/8 what they do in California... interesting conversation.

Good to hear from you, been meaning to update you via email soon.

[Renron]

I know you liked your Honda but the FJ is a whole 3 steps up in terms of tough. Personally, I buy 4 wheel drives simply because they pay for themselves the first time you use 4WD. IMO.
You got the militia wrong, you should join them. Strength in numbers and all. You DO want to fit in don't you?
Crap, you can't even buy a 50 cal. in Ca. anymore............... Sorry I meant Kommifornina. Lock & Load.
Glad you enjoyed your trip Jon.
Ron

[csmielke]

Yeah, I heard that Bardenay's Restaurant had some flooding. I lived in Island Woods on the other side of the north channel around Eagle Island and lived across from the homes on the river. I used to watch the snow pack when I was there and actually purchased flood insurance one year but the only flooding that year was from the south channel in the back of the subdivision. I heard this year was way worse then the one bad year I experienced when I lived there. Great town and area.

[Browncoat]

I can see how the snow helped CA--my wife and I took a road trip through N. California and Yosemite last fall, and it looked desperately in need of water.

I spent some time in eastern Idaho, and it didn't suit my tastes, but it's close to Jackson/Yellowstone and City of Rocks, which is nice. Flooding in Boise wasn't too bad, but there was significant damage to parts of the greenbelt, and the river is still closed for floating. At it's highest this spring, it was nearly level with the Eagle road bridge just south of 44!

[csmielke]

Not familiar with Idaho Falls other than skirting it on travels to and from SLC. Prior to Eagle/Boise we lived in Park City UT for four years so, have done that drive many times. It does give you access to SLC and all that goes with the bigger city not to mention a great airport. I did hear from my buds that the snow pack was huge last winter and they were worried about runoff down the Boise River (some flooding occurred). Also screwed up spring and early summer fly fishing in many areas and that sucked.

[JonMarsh]

Agreed, with the exception of last winter--the snow was epic (in Boise/Eagle terms). I live about two miles from Eagle road (north end), and I drove a 2WD Tacoma for several years.

That's what I heard from the Gal Friday (actually Saturday!) at Eagle Storage- it was a whole different experience- but then the whole NorthWest had that problem last year, which for CA was a benefit, because we got plenty of water for a change, along with record breaking snowfall in the Seirras, and some ski areas still open this summer.

[Browncoat]

Jon,
The Toyota is perfect there and 2wd is fine since they don't get much snow in Boise (high desert).

Agreed, with the exception of last winter--the snow was epic (in Boise/Eagle terms). I live about two miles from Eagle road (north end), and I drove a 2WD Tacoma for several years.

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, that reminds me of being in Colorado out in the sticks...

The Eagle Rd area is pretty busy, but again, compared with CA, it's a walk in the park. you wouldn't believe what it's like getting out of San Francisco on a Saturday morning on the Bay Bridge- even worse is what's happening to poor schmucks trying to get INTO SF at that time of day- on the weekend- not rush hour! I'm going to be very happy to be through with that. Driving around Idaho during the weekend and week days was a breeze in comparison.

The Eagle Rd area was pretty nice, but overall I'd say the Boise-Nampa-Caldwell region, big as it is, is a bit like a patch work quilt, as regards usage, planning, and how neighborhoods are laid out. What surprised me was how nice much of the southeast side of Idaho Falls was- especially off Sunnyside Drive, and around the S 25th East street, which crosses it out on the East side - very nice area, very good planning and layout of retail areas, "medical row", and developments. Too bad it's 4 hours further away. Still, I'll keep looking, though so far the places I've really liked out there have moved quickly. Just have to see what's going on in 2019.

The headlight upgrade has shipped, and I have a local guy who work's on GF's Passat who is looking into taking care of ordering and installing an OEM hitch.

I don't figure the overhead rack would do me much good; makes sense for Outback excursions with 3 or more passengers, but otherwise, my rear seats will be folded down all the time, and don't need the aerodynamic drag. So far, I'm amazed that the gas mileage is as good as it is, about 18-19 around town. At sensible speeds on the Freeway, around 24. that's not all that far off from my EX 4WD Element, in fact almost the same, but this is with a substantially larger vehicle, though with only 400lb more weight (4,000 lb for the 2WD FJ, versus 3600 lb for the AWD EX Element). The 4.0 L V6 has considerably more grunt, and overall, I'm quite pleased with the car.

Where it doesn't do as well is steering feel and linearity, and the sound system isn't as clean in the mids and highs. Plus this one needs work on the subwoofer- Brakes are a bit nonlinear, light initially, then really grab and haul things down. Kudo's to Honda for their linear feel.

Still, I think this is just what I need for the tasks ahead.

[csmielke]

Jon,
Glad the recon went well. Eagle road is certainly in my old stomping grounds though, traffic is heavier than when I lived there. Certainly not by Cali. standards I'm sure. No worries on the militia stuff as that was mostly in Northern Idaho. Suv/trucks are very much the vehicles of choice. The Toyota is perfect there and 2wd is fine since they don't get much snow in Boise (high desert). Driving north you get into snow country pretty quick and 4wd would be valuable for those excursions. Actually come to think of it, the cattle guards could come in handy on those highways with open range signs, especially at night. Kind of a wake up when you come up on a herd of black angus prime in the middle of the road.
Chris

[JonMarsh]

Oh yeah, the Oregon part of the road and the super low speed limits in the towns are JUST LOVELY!

Force Recon was completed successfully, including a one day trip to Idaho Falls, which I was more impressed with in places than I expected to be. Still, it's another 4 hours aways.

Got some stuff dropped off in climate controlled storage in a unit I rented in Boise. Some of the places I was looking at were very close to that storage on Eagle Road. The gal Friday there said that about half of the climate controlled units were held buy people from Southern CA- now I'm from Northern, so wouldn't want to be lumped in with that crowd, but obviously we're more similar than native Idahoans.

Checked a lot of houses and areas while there before heading back on Tuesday. Finished the acquisition of a new to me vehicle which would have been nice to have on the trip- the new FJ is sort of like my old car, a Honda Element, but on steroids and been to the gym to work out and buff up...

The 2WD version gets better gas mileage and has a higher towing capacity than the usual 4WD FJ; it should be good for towing stuff up there...




All I need is a new towing hitch, some LED headlamps, some cattle guard bumpers, and a pair of 50 cal to deal with the Idaho militias.* :W

Get it put into the full Mad Max mode...








*most of that is in progress already...

[csmielke]

Jon,
My oldest went to Cal State Northridge and I hated that drive from Winnemuca to Boise. I'm sure you loved doing 55mph all the way through Oregon.
Chris

[JonMarsh]

If you look at the original Ardent thread, you can see some stuff about laying up and clamping pieces to make the front panel; it's recommended unless you have a dedicated beech work bench to use some heavy angle iron to assure basic alignment and no warpage of the pieces.

I'd go into more, but short on time, I'm in a McDonald's in Winnemuca NV finishing a light lunch, before proceeding to Boise.

It's been a busy month.

Just ask Steve- we've got a crossover BOM for the Minerva's put together, and will post that soon, too.

[technodanvan]

Lamination? As in laminating together several pices of plywood to get a baffel of the wanted thickness, or as in veneering?

I placed the plates on top of each other and used drilled holes and wooden dowels to avoid that the sheets moved sideways when I glued them together.
But one advice is to ensure that you add a side sheet of thin plywood for the whole side of the speaker to ensure that you do not get a edge between the baffel and the sides of the speakers. As the baffel is very thick and the wood are in another direction than the side of the speaker - this will easly happend if you do not take actions to avoid it.

If you do not like veneering you could of course go for spray paint :-)

Laminating as in gluing several layers of materials together for thickness. I just find it messy most time I do it. I like the idea of adding an additional layer to the sides. Unsure how I'll finish them, honestly I might just pay someone to veneer, coat, and polish them (or fiberglass, paint, and polish them) as I really don't enjoy that part of the job. We'll see what's available when the time comes in 2020.

Is that being a bit too pessimistic?

I took the easier way out - since I had excess material I just glued two layers together with a clamp across each end until I had a few vertical clamps tight. Repeat with the double layers after driver cut outs. Then used a 2" flush trim bit guiding on the third layer down - it was most recessed on one edge. You're going to have to trim the 1/16" excess baffle width anyway, so I used my tablesaw to trim to width so that it just needed a touch of sanding to go flush.

Also not a bad idea. I'd rather have a little too much wood than not enough, especially when we're talking about bamboo. Though I might follow what our dark lord did with the Kurosawa project and source some of that pin block material, at least for the baffles. Do you think he'd mind if I went with a nice shade of white?

I think I feel my throat tightening already...

[BobEllis]

I took the easier way out - since I had excess material I just glued two layers together with a clamp across each end until I had a few vertical clamps tight. Repeat with the double layers after driver cut outs. Then used a 2" flush trim bit guiding on the third layer down - it was most recessed on one edge. You're going to have to trim the 1/16" excess baffle width anyway, so I used my tablesaw to trim to width so that it just needed a touch of sanding to go flush.

I went the epoxy route for sealing. You pretty much have to do a gloss finish after it, and need to coat the show side with epoxy after lamination because there will be bleed through. And I still have a little bit of seam telegraphing through. I'd probably go TEK's route if I did it again. My girlfriend says they look and sound great and I am not allowed to re-veneer them.

[TEK]

Lamination? As in laminating together several pices of plywood to get a baffel of the wanted thickness, or as in veneering?

I placed the plates on top of each other and used drilled holes and wooden dowels to avoid that the sheets moved sideways when I glued them together.
But one advice is to ensure that you add a side sheet of thin plywood for the whole side of the speaker to ensure that you do not get a edge between the baffel and the sides of the speakers. As the baffel is very thick and the wood are in another direction than the side of the speaker - this will easly happend if you do not take actions to avoid it.

If you do not like veneering you could of course go for spray paint :-)

[technodanvan]

I'm not too terribly worried about the facets, it's the laminating that I always find to be a tedious, messy process. No way around it though.

[BobEllis]

I think everyone after the initial group did our own baffles. Not nearly as hard as it looks. Mark the facet edges. Handsaw off most of the facet then use a plane/power plane/belt sander to the pencil line. Done with all cuts in about the time it takes to build and set up a tablesaw jig.

[technodanvan]

I'm slowly gathering the parts to build a pair of these. Are people just making their own baffles at this point?