Official Wavecor Ardent Reference Thread - How we realized the Dream

[Wayman]

Thanks ergo, and that is a nice stack of drivers!

Cheers, Wayne

[ergo]

According to Jon's posted simulations here it's 40L.
I'm in process of replicating the design in Fusion360 - I can try to get the exact volume as well.. just need to figure out how that's done in F360.

The model uses variable parameters for main dimensions (material thicknesses), so once I get to know the exact thickness of each material I can easily update the whole model to that. Base is still do be done and then 'flattening a copy of it' so that I could make 2D drawing and stock list easier.

[Wayman]

Hi,
Looks like some new builds in the future. Excellent!

Can someone give me the net volume? I seem to recall it being 40 liters?

Cheers, Wayne

[Renron]

Ergo,
Awesome, really makes you want to get started doesn't it? Please leave a link to your build thread so we all can have fun with you. I love my TS Ardents! One of the most rewarding projects I have ever built.
Thanks to JON! (still trying to get my wife to move to Idaho........probably ain't gonna happen.....;( )
Ron

[BobEllis]

Congratulations. Go make some sawdust!

[ergo]

I finally have all the drivers in house. Now having this much of investment sitting in corner I now need to finish the 3D model and then start the box builds. Hoping this will act as enough of self motivation to push through. I would very much like to get the sound out of these in foreseeable future.

[flamethrower1]

I might be interrested, depending on what you got, and if you would ship to Norway.

PM me if you are still inerested

[roadrune]

I have a hell of a deal on the pawn shop for anyone interested in this build

I might be interrested, depending on what you got, and if you would ship to Norway.

[flamethrower1]

Jon is such a humble man. (no sarcasm intended) He is very modest. These Ardent speakers easily rival $50,000 speakers in retail stores. Easily. Even thou mine are the mid priced versions I prefer them to the B&W s. Ardents are smoother between drivers.....the drivers blend very well together. I suspect it has much to do with his unorthodox Uber crossover designs. He is the Master. Oops, I hope I didn't offend Evil Twin with that one. E.T. is Jon's teacher, the real Master.
Ron

I have a hell of a deal on the pawn shop for anyone interested in this build

[ergo]

For facets - I did an investment in a tool back in July for the decking build

http://www.mafell.com/kss60/#kss60

So I'll be doing the guiderail / circular saw / handsaw / sanding way of doing it.

This one is one of the more expensive versions of all the circular saws but I do like it a lot. Very good engineering and usability and precision of the cuts

[ergo]

What kind of wood are you planning on using for the cabinet?

Thats a bit of an open question still. As an end result an oak with staining bit towards white (IKEA white oak type of look) is the goal. As for how to get there is more open for now. The biggest panels of bamboo I've found in Estonia are 800x600mm which is too short for this project. Weather it would work to use BB as full pieces and glue join bamboo panels to get enough lenght is something I need to figure out. I did like the bamboo as a a material and for the acoustic result in Minerva project a lot, so would be good to still have that.

[Fdas]

What other options are there other than bamboo and BB?

[TEK]

Nice to hear Ergo - hope you will have a fun build and a result that tou are happy with!
What kind of wood are you planning on using for the cabinet?

[BobEllis]

Welcome to the club, Ergo. I'm looking forward to watching your build progress. I used the same sort of motivation. Buying drivers means there's too much money invested not to finish. I've had a few projects die on the vine because of early frustrations.

[ergo]

I finally pulled the trigger and ordered all of the drive units for Wavecor Ardent. So with this much investment in drivers I'll have to pull myself together, finish the 3D model of the box and order the woods... and then start the box build process. Leaving the Xover ordering for later as there is less risk there as most components have alternatives. Not getting the Accutons for example, once box is ready, would be quite a bummer.

[Renron]

That's a great picture of them Jon. Thank you for your hard work designing these treasures. I had them cranked up to 9 the other day, that's 9 out of 10, not 9 o'clock.
Clean and loud...........beautiful.
Ron

[JonMarsh]

Don't sell your design short, Jon. The Time is advertised at $60K or $64K with premium finishes. https://www.overtureav.com/shop/avalon

you know, the last time I checked the price on the Avalon Time was probably 3-4 years ago. inflation.

Now, one must remember, the advertised price for the basic BOM on the Ardent's doesn't include premium finishes... that's something the individual constructor must supply, if they wish.

For some, like Ron, nothing else will suffice!! :W

[Renron]

Jon is such a humble man. (no sarcasm intended) He is very modest. These Ardent speakers easily rival $50,000 speakers in retail stores. Easily. Even thou mine are the mid priced versions I prefer them to the B&W s. Ardents are smoother between drivers.....the drivers blend very well together. I suspect it has much to do with his unorthodox Uber crossover designs. He is the Master. Oops, I hope I didn't offend Evil Twin with that one. E.T. is Jon's teacher, the real Master.
Ron

[roadrune]

Thanks

I have never heard the Avalon speakers, but the best-and most expencive for that matter- speakers i have heard is the latest version of Bowers & Wilkins 800. I really liked the sound from them, but both the price tag and design does not appeal to me

It seems like the Ardents would fit the bill quite nice for me.

I just have to save a little bit more, so if nothing more appealing shows up in the next year or so, Norway might get a second pair

[BobEllis]

Don't sell your design short, Jon. The Time is advertised at $60K or $64K with premium finishes. https://www.overtureav.com/shop/avalon

[JonMarsh]

Sorry if this has been adressed earlier, but i couldnt be bothered to read the entire thread to find out :P

Does theese compare to anything commercially available? They seems like a good option for me, but i would like to have a idea of what to expect before i would start...

TEK: do you know if anyone built this in southwest Norway that could be auditioned? I think you are located in mid-Norway?

The Wavecor Ardent, as we call it, derives from the original Ardent, which in turn was inspired by the Avalon Indra. Both the original Ardent and the Indra used dual 7" woofers.

This is the Avalon Indra. BTW, an old friend, Charlie Hansen, who used to work for me when he was a student at CU, founded Avalon. There's more relevant back story, but not to be told here.




The Indra uses the same C79 midrange, but an Accuton ceramic tweeter, and two Eton 8 Ohm woofers in parallel. Because of the impedance characteristics of the woofers and the crossover network, the Indra has a fairly punishing low frequency impedance characteristics, getting down to about 2.5 ohms for a couple of octaves. They sold for between $28K and $32K.

The Wavecor Ardent retains the similar enclosure size but is able to use the 8-1/2" Wavecor woofers, which have both more cone area and more Xmax, and a generally all around better motor. They can play lower and louder, and they have a very benign impedance curve at about 5 ohms.

The speakers closes in performance to the Wavecor Ardent's from Avalon is the Avalon Time. They use dual 10" woofers, in a quite a bit larger cabinet, but the woofers don't have the Xmas of the Wavecors. They also use the C79 midrange, but have the 25mm Accuton diamond tweeter. They are more sensitive than the Ardent's, and they MSRP for about $48K a pair. Basic material BOM on the Wavecor Ardent's is $5K.

[BobEllis]

Similar idea to Avalon Accoustics speakers, right? I don't know if any one of those speakers matches exactly to this one.

IIRC, Jon targeted the Avalon Indra. He missed the target high, and the extension and maximum SPL are pretty much the same as the Time. Although I've not heard either Avalon speaker, the Ardents seem to be on par with anything else I've heard in the $40-60K range. A pretty good return on your investment in parts and time.

[Fdas]

Can I use 4x https://www.hificollective.co.uk/cat...r-p-10213.html in series instead of 5x 20 ohm resistors in parallel?

[TEK]

TEK: do you know if anyone built this in southwest Norway that could be auditioned? I think you are located in mid-Norway?

I do not recall seeing any other from Norway that has buildt these.
I'm located in Trondheim.

[Fdas]

Similar idea to Avalon Accoustics speakers, right? I don't know if any one of those speakers matches exactly to this one.

[roadrune]

Sorry if this has been adressed earlier, but i couldnt be bothered to read the entire thread to find out :P

Does theese compare to anything commercially available? They seems like a good option for me, but i would like to have a idea of what to expect before i would start...

TEK: do you know if anyone built this in southwest Norway that could be auditioned? I think you are located in mid-Norway?

[TEK]

Also, wouldn't like a festool skillsaw + rail be capable of cutting the facets?

It has been done ;-)

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?41695-My-Wavecor-Ardent-with-center-build&p=601428&viewfull=1#post601428

(PS: read post 129 before you start if you are planning on using this method, my facets are 50 degrees instead of 40. I like it that way but you might not)

[Fdas]

Is the program available for all the CNC cuts for all the various panels?

Also, wouldn't like a festool skillsaw + rail be capable of cutting the facets?

[dar47]

Hi Fdas, welcome to the Ardents!

You will always have access to your cross overs and can start with mid grade parts if the budget is tight to start. It can be a nice experiment to upgrade your cross over later to hear differences. Remember these speaks are going to ruthlessly reveal how good your front end gear is which if like me may drag you down that upgrade path as well.

The first 6 complete cabinets and 2 other baffles were all produced using CNC. As mentioned you can cut facets by other means or use a 4 axes CNC machine with a jig fixture to do the facets as well. A 5 axis CNC can do the facets without a fixture to hold the baffle. Ben and I chose to source a cabinet builder with a panel saw that did the cuts clean and fast. This was not a lot of money and we supplied the fixture to hold the baffles at the right angle and he just mounted them and ran them through the saw, so not much of his time was needed. By the way the fixture to hold the baffle was CNC'd too!

[Fdas]

If I have access to CNC routed panels, is that something that anyone has ever done to make these cabinets? I assume the facets still must be cut some other way.

[Steve Manning]

Fdas,
In the woofer circuit I used medium grade capacitors, the mid circuit I used very good grade of capacitors, Tweeter circuit the best I could afford (Clarity Cap MR plus Teflon, mix and match values)
Resister wise , same deal , Woofer circuit mid grade (power resistors), but mid and tweeters got the "Good Stuff" (M-Resist Supremes) so Jon wouldn't yell at me.
Everything worked well together and both Jon and I were pleased.

There are MANY fine capacitors at fair prices, you don't have to buy the Mundorf copper caps.

Ron

Usually it's more of a tisk - tisk than out right yelling.

[Fdas]

OK.

I put this together based on schematics and so I'm not sure what 'level' of cross over this is... low end, mid range, high end? Reading what you said it seems like this is solidly mid range, which I am fine with. I'm also fine with making any adjustments to components where either i will save money for no loss in performance, or where I will gain performance for a small increase in price. Basically, looking for the whole 'best bang for buck' concept.

Also just need to make sure the values I have picked are correct.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bcCQ6CBHpANRDQlDuFuPhNIzPSMvjczRwBagk7ATkQc/edit?usp=sharing

[Renron]

Fdas,
In the woofer circuit I used medium grade capacitors, the mid circuit I used very good grade of capacitors, Tweeter circuit the best I could afford (Clarity Cap MR plus Teflon, mix and match values)
Resister wise , same deal , Woofer circuit mid grade (power resistors), but mid and tweeters got the "Good Stuff" (M-Resist Supremes) so Jon wouldn't yell at me.
Everything worked well together and both Jon and I were pleased.

There are MANY fine capacitors at fair prices, you don't have to buy the Mundorf copper caps.

Ron

[Wayne1]

If you are willing to wait a bit for delivery, AudioHobby has a bit better pricing on Jantzen caps and coils. I have used them 3 times with very positive results.

[BobEllis]

Certainly worth polishing your woodworking skills before starting a project like this. They deserve your best possible effort, but you'd be surprised what you can do with a router, straightedge and a handsaw.

[Fdas]

My lack of tools/cabinet building skill is a real bummer.

[BobEllis]

If you can, you'll be happy. Such a worthwhile project. I wish I could afford a second pair for my family's summer house. I miss them.

[Fdas]

Thank you. I'll check that out. Looks like it would depend on what was available at the time of ordering. I will make sure to check that out when/if I actually pull the trigger on this.

[BobEllis]

You didn't ask, but you might save a bunch of money buying capacitors and resistors from hificollective.uk. I did. There was another European site I used for some parts that hificollective didn't have. The name should be in my build thread, I can't recall now. At the time I bought, buying from Europe both saved 1/3 the cost of the parts (after shipping) and they arrived faster than Madisound or Parts Express shipments - one or two days.

The 5 Mills 20 Ohm 12 W are what I used in that spot because 16R M-Resist Supremes are not available.

[Fdas]

I'm exploring the feasibility of building the Wavecor Ardent project. I put together a project BOM. Can someone with some experience make sure I've selected the right parts? Specifically the ones I am concerned with are the 20ohm 12W resistors used in the woofer Net, as well as all of the inductors.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15CM-myepkPlhSc_T2-hMpNR9VEGMvFLbyBHQx-KcdDU/edit?usp=sharing

The resistors in the woofer net look to me like 5x 20 ohm resistors in parallel, which should measure 4 ohm, right? I've seen several different schematics now, one has 2x 22ohm resistors in parallel [11 ohm, right?]. So this particular point I am confused about. 1) Did I pick a good resistor for this speaker, and 2) Is this really the correct value?

For the L1 resistor I've seen 5.6mH and 5.1mH, which is correct?

For R1/R1B [mid net] I've seen 2x 8.2 ohm parallel, and 2x 10 ohm parallel. Which is correct?

For R2/R2B I've seen 2x 10 ohm parallel and 2x 22 ohm parallel. Which is correct?

For R4/R4B Ive seen 2x 10 ohm parallel and 2x 8 ohm parallel. Which is correct?

For R3 in [tweeter net] I have seen 3.3 ohm and 3 ohm. Which is correct?

For R6/R6B I have seen 2x 1.5 ohm in series and 4 ohm. Which is correct?

[JonMarsh]

Ooorah!

Outline, my favorite Mac One-Note clone (reads One Note files just fine) opens your files perfectly. I downloaded the 1st one.




Thanks much!

Steve and I both have Fusion 360, and I've been able to do some stuff with it OK, but I have to admit I think my reptile hind brain is wired for Shark FX still.... I can use that in my sleep or drunk or whatever, I haven't gotten comfortable enough with 360 yet, and haven't had time really in the last year.

[ergo]

https://www.onenote.com/download --> Windows Desktop
You might wanna try if the version offered there works for you. OneNote is not part of paid Office packages so should be free to use.

[Steve Manning]

Hmm, I've uploaded the same as a *.one file to same link. That one shows OneNote 2010-2016 when saving. The *.onepkg does not offer any version options.... I have the OneNote 2016.

I way behind you, I have 2007. Now the document opens up in my browser fine, I just can't save it. I'll keep looking and see what I can come up with. Thanks Ergo.

[ergo]

Hmm, I've uploaded the same as a *.one file to same link. That one shows OneNote 2010-2016 when saving. The *.onepkg does not offer any version options.... I have the OneNote 2016.

[Steve Manning]

I've added the box plans download links into the OneNote 'Box build' section. Both the PDF and PNG variation.

Steve - you can download the OneNote *.onepkg file from here
This is a current state 'drop' ... the OneNote Online version will update on fly as I do changes, but for off-line version like this I would of course need to export every now and then to keep it current.

I've started to draw the plans also into Fusion360 with parametric modelling, so that all material thickness's could be adjusted and model updates accordingly. I have front panel ready, but rest of it is on todo list still. Once I have that I will share that too.

Thanks Ergo. I noticed you had some Fusion drawings in there, I'll certainly be interested in those as well. Out of curiosity can you save files in OneNote as older versions. It appears you have newer software than I do and can't open it.