VituixCAD v2

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  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 16059

    #1216
    And, for anyone interested, a quick reminder of how Duelund filters work...


    the individual LP, MP, HP equations and total transfer function, based on a defined center frequency and coefficient aleph:


    Click image for larger version

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    MathCAD plots for different coefficients of aleph:


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    Phase examples for those versions of aleph:


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    For an aleph of 1.414 or less, the transfer function devolves to a two way.

    the AudioWorx
    Natalie P
    M8ta
    Modula Neo DCC
    Modula MT XE
    Modula Xtreme
    Isiris
    Wavecor Ardent

    SMJ
    Minerva Monitor
    Calliope
    Ardent D

    In Development...
    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
    Obi-Wan
    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
    Modula PWB
    Calliope CC Supreme
    Natalie P Ultra
    Natalie P Supreme
    Janus BP1 Sub


    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

    Comment


    • JonMarsh
      JonMarsh commented
      Editing a comment
      Generating a transfer function set and exporting these to a text file, they can be imported into VituixCAD to use as response target references.

    • JonMarsh
      JonMarsh commented
      Editing a comment
      Now, if Kimmo doesn't have enough to do, and is looking for a new extra credit homework assignment, I would request a built in Duelund Reference transfer function generator for VituixCAD- you only need two input variables to define it relative to 0 db, but one could always add a scaling function for extra credit!

    • JonMarsh
      JonMarsh commented
      Editing a comment
      To be sure everyone understands, just kidding...
      But it would be useful, to me.
  • kimmosto
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2006
    • 711

    #1217
    Originally posted by Reet
    Is an ideal response to have a flat RMS step, or some sort of slope to this curve?
    The most ideal phase and step response with certain magnitude response is minimum-phase. Step response like with Dunlavys.
    That is possible to set as a reference overlay by selecting "Total SPL MP" to 'Signal to show' list box and locking Y scale with IR max checkbox. For example this in theoretical limes for 8260A shown below, assuming that speaker would have adequate phase linearisation with FIR convolution:
    Click image for larger version

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    Reality with early production series and original GLM is quite much lower maximum pressure and RMS compared to minimum-phase:Click image for larger version

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    Perceivability​ of pressure drop with ears and body is more complex topic. As far as I know, there are no valid studies and convention papers available for that. Perceivability depends on many other things too so it's difficult to define minimum group delays for speakers without FIR gear/app. Designers are forced to use their own experience or design principle without requirement for any psycho-acoustic science. Minimizing excess group delay and avoiding subsonic filter and subwoofers is quite safe way, but for example pro audio sector could have some higher priorities such as total latency and durability which could prevent from aiming for zero excess group delay and short GD at LF.
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    Comment

    • kimmosto
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2006
      • 711

      #1218
      Originally posted by JonMarsh
      I would request a built in Duelund Reference transfer function generator for VituixCAD- you only need two input variables to define it relative to 0 db, but one could always add a scaling function for extra credit!
      VituixCAD has two Duelund active 3-way library blocks using generic active blocks. Two parameters: f and a.
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      It also has two Duelund target transfer functions for LP/HP and BP, defined in Optimizer window. These are designed for passive 3-way speakers. May require some knowledge or testing how f and a should be set:
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      Last edited by kimmosto; 13 July 2025, 09:03 Sunday.
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      Comment

      • JonMarsh
        Mad Max Moderator
        • Aug 2000
        • 16059

        #1219
        Thank You! I should be looking closer, but I've been working on cabinets and hardware so much lately!
        the AudioWorx
        Natalie P
        M8ta
        Modula Neo DCC
        Modula MT XE
        Modula Xtreme
        Isiris
        Wavecor Ardent

        SMJ
        Minerva Monitor
        Calliope
        Ardent D

        In Development...
        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
        Obi-Wan
        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
        Modula PWB
        Calliope CC Supreme
        Natalie P Ultra
        Natalie P Supreme
        Janus BP1 Sub


        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

        Comment

        • Reet
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2007
          • 816

          #1220
          Originally posted by kimmosto

          The most ideal phase and step response with certain magnitude response is minimum-phase. Step response like with Dunlavys.
          That is possible to set as a reference overlay by selecting "Total SPL MP" to 'Signal to show' list box and locking Y scale with IR max checkbox. For example this in theoretical limes for 8260A shown below, assuming that speaker would have adequate phase linearisation with FIR convolution:
          Click image for larger version  Name:	image.png Views:	27 Size:	47.2 KB ID:	958811
          Thank you, this is quite helpful. It aligns well with my own perception, from previous examples shown, speaker 2 has the most impactful, "punchy" bass, despite a quite modest mid tier driver being used. It appears that this is not strictly a magnitude response problem, the time domain is just as important.
          I'm not deaf, I'm just not listening!

          Comment

          • kimmosto
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2006
            • 711

            #1221
            Originally posted by Reet
            It appears that this is not strictly a magnitude response problem, the time domain is just as important.
            Possible differences in magnitude responses, directivity, wavefront, compression/dynamic features of the radiators (including ports) and location of the radiators make difficult to evaluate effect of time domain only. Therefore the only controlled method to distinguish timing is to compare the same speaker with different phase linearisation with FIR gear/app: from minimum-phase version via original timing to added excess group delay. Test speakers should be dynamic, preferably closed to have short group delay at LF, and wavefront towards the listener to not limit perceptibility of timing with something else than timing of the source.

            The only study and convention paper including close to proper method is "Audibility of Loudspeaker Phase Distortion" by Greenfield and Hawsford, 1990. Test speaker was Celestion SL700 (2-way with XO at 3 kHz) and they listened two music tracks only. That study is not valid to tell anything about 3...5-ways or using subwoofers crossed at mid...high-bass. So insignificance of time domain is just religious cult in "objective" forums such as Audio Science Review.
            VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

            Comment

            • Reet
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2007
              • 816

              #1222
              I am reminded of a paper from Bohdan Raczynski from a few years back "Perfecting 'Punch' In Your Loudspeakers", here:


              The paper makes no reference to step response however, but there references at the end to a lot of related research which may be of interest.

              Complete list of papers and internet sources
              1. M.Zaunschirm, J.Reiss and A.Klapuri, A High Quality Sub-Band Approach to Musical
              Transient Modification, Computer Music Journal, Volume 36, Number 2, Summer 2012,
              pp. 23-36

              2. M.Goodwin and C.Avendano, Enhancement of Audio Signals Using Transient Detection
              and Modification, AES Convention Paper 6255, October 2004

              3. "Detection and modeling of fast attack transients" by Xavier Rodet and Florent Jaillet

              4. S.Fenton., B.Fazenda, and J.Wakefield, 'Objective quality measurement of audio using
              multiband dynamic range analysis'. Institute of Acoustics (IOA) Conference- November
              2009,

              5. S.Fenton and J.Wakefield, Objective profiling of perceived punch and clarity in produced
              music.132nd Audio Engineering Society Convention, April 2012,

              6. Steven Fenton, Hyunkook Lee, and Jonathan Wakefield in "Elicitation and Objective
              Grading of 'Punch' Within Produced Music" Convention Paper 9043, Presented at the
              136th Convention 2014 April 26–29 Berlin, Germany,

              7. Hybrid Multiresolution Analysis Of 'Punch' In Musical Signals. Steven Fenton,
              Hyunkook Lee, and Jonathan Wakefield, Convention Paper 9229 Presented at the 138th
              Convention 2015 May 7–10 Warsaw, Poland

              8. Towards a Perceptual Model Of 'Punch' In Musical Signals, Steven Fenton and
              Hyunkook Lee, Convention Paper 9381Presented at the 139th Convention 2015 October
              29-November 1 New York, USA

              9. Peter Dowset ―Audio Production Tips: Getting the Sound Right at the Source‖, CRC
              Press, 538 pages.

              10. URL Source: http://www.stereophile.com/reference/706deep/index.html

              11. http://music.tutsplus.com/tutorials/...-mixes--audio-
              1083

              12. http://subaqueousmusic.com/transient...-to-add-punch/

              13. http://www.thesoundkeeper.com/top-5-...esign-plugins/
              I'm not deaf, I'm just not listening!

              Comment

              • kimmosto
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2006
                • 711

                #1223
                2.0.127.3 (2025-07-16)

                Enclosure
                • Added 'Equivalent Peak Dissipation Resistance' (EPDR) trace to impedance chart.
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                Comment

                • augerpro
                  Super Senior Member
                  • Aug 2006
                  • 1871

                  #1224
                  I wonder if you could create a driver type for the baffle diffraction simulator that would mimic a waveguide? Define a cutoff frequency and directivity slope above that. Currently when prototyping where I intend to use a waveguide on the tweeter, I just use a driver diameter (say, 4") that is similar to the actual waveguide response around the intended crossover frequency so I can understand how the response will combine with the midrange response. But above some frequency the driver response drops off quickly offaxis, which the actual waveguided tweeter does not do.
                  Last edited by augerpro; 25 July 2025, 22:32 Friday.
                  ~Brandon 8O
                  Please donate to my Waveguides for CNC and 3D Printing Project!!
                  Please donate to my Monster Box Construction Methods Project!!
                  DriverVault
                  Soma Sonus

                  Comment

                  • kimmosto
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2006
                    • 711

                    #1225
                    Originally posted by augerpro
                    I wonder if you could create a driver type for the baffle diffraction simulator that would mimic a waveguide? Define a cutoff frequency and directivity slope above that slope.
                    Yes I could. The simplest solution would be tiny throat (without directivity of the driver) and constant circular directivity slope down to cut-off frequency, but I'm afraid directivity of the driver to small off-axis angles, closer to CD with steeper cut-off, and elliptical, square or rectangular wave guide with different parameters for horizontal and vertical planes will be asked quite soon. This may open Pandora's box
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                    Comment

                    • kimmosto
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2006
                      • 711

                      #1226
                      Mockup with simple directivity. That could use ca. transfer function of 1st order low-pass at cut-off manipulated by slopes and off-axis angles (up to 90 deg).Click image for larger version

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                      • kimmosto
                        Senior Member
                        • Dec 2006
                        • 711

                        #1227
                        Test app simplified to circular due to some mathematical challenges
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                        Comment

                        • augerpro
                          Super Senior Member
                          • Aug 2006
                          • 1871

                          #1228
                          Looks great to me!
                          ~Brandon 8O
                          Please donate to my Waveguides for CNC and 3D Printing Project!!
                          Please donate to my Monster Box Construction Methods Project!!
                          DriverVault
                          Soma Sonus

                          Comment

                          • kimmosto
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2006
                            • 711

                            #1229
                            2.0.128.0 (2025-07-29)

                            Diffraction
                            • Added very simple emulation for directivity of a waveguide. Does not emulate change in efficiency and on-axis SPL. 'Waveguide mimic' group includes Enable checkbox, Cutoff in Hz and Slope in dB/oct text boxes. A circle in green dashed line is drawn outside the driver(s) when emulation is enabled.
                            • Axis Hor and Axis Ver can be non-zero at the same also with rectangular driver.
                            Poetry in the user manual​:

                            Waveguide mimic
                            This is a simple emulation for directivity of a waveguide. Emulation does not include change in efficiency and on-axis SPL. There is no response boost (and anyhing for impedance) so result cannot be used for designing equalization. Actual waveguide/horn simulation would be much more complicate requiring all dimensions, shape of cross-section(s) and driver parameters.
                            Emulation is activated with Enable checkbox in 'Waveguide mimic' group. A circle in green dashed line is drawn outside the driver(s) when emulation has been enabled.
                            Frequency where directivity starts is adjusted with Cutoff textbox in Hz.
                            Change in directivity as a function of frequency is adjusted with Slope text box in dB/oct. Value to be adjusted is slope of off-axis response to 90 degrees in half space (infinite baffle without directivity due to baffle edges). Range is from -0.1 to -6.0 dB/oct.
                            Root response for emulated off-axis responses is transfer function of the 1st order low-pass filter. That is manipulated with Slope parameter and direction (angle) from the driver to virtual mic/listening point. Waveguide is assumed to be circular. Directivity calculation of the driver (as an ideal piston) is limited between -50 and +50 degrees i.e. opening angle of the throat is assumed to be ca. 100 degrees.
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                            Comment

                            • kimmosto
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2006
                              • 711

                              #1230
                              augerpro Your Waveguides page contains this image:
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                              I tried to find the reference for "-6dB 100-10khz drop on axis vs power response found by Harman to be most preferred in listening tests". In the beginning also ChatGPT answered that ca. -1 dB/octave slope is recommended, but in the end it didn't find any references, papers or books and page numbers. Some posts in diy audio forums, and general statements by Toole et al. without exact values or ranges. Do you remember where you got that phrase from?​

                              This question is related to slope targets in VituixCAD. My plan is to clarify the ranges and logic between different slope targets in Preference rating window. So far I've been using statistics of measured speakers and concepts, and referred book "Tee itse hifikaiuttimia" by P. Tuomela's including this text: "​A suitable power response reduction is typically 5-6 dB between 200 Hz and 12 kHz. An exact guideline value cannot be given, as it is also affected by the free-field response and the directivity of the speaker". Those sentences leave out acoustics, listening setup, "bad" 80s recordings etc. so more tolerance may be needed.​

                              Current calculation formulas for target ranges can be found here:​
                              Originally posted by kimmosto
                              Slope target limits as C# code for...
                              VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

                              Comment

                              • augerpro
                                Super Senior Member
                                • Aug 2006
                                • 1871

                                #1231
                                I don't remember what authoritative source I heard that from, as you said some form of it has bounced around the forums for a long time. I'm almost sure it was in Sound Reproduction, but I just don't remember anymore.
                                ~Brandon 8O
                                Please donate to my Waveguides for CNC and 3D Printing Project!!
                                Please donate to my Monster Box Construction Methods Project!!
                                DriverVault
                                Soma Sonus

                                Comment

                                • Reet
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Dec 2007
                                  • 816

                                  #1232
                                  Relevant: https://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20250731/17839.pdf
                                  I'm not deaf, I'm just not listening!

                                  Comment

                                  • kimmosto
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Dec 2006
                                    • 711

                                    #1233
                                    Originally posted by Reet
                                    I'm developing an allergy to Toole's documents and Sound Reproduction book. They seem more useless every day. Close to nothing for speaker designing and different concepts. Just general basic things known for four decades, added with indefinite statements that can also be interpreted as false claims​.
                                    For example timing / phase distortion in 3rd edition, chapter 4.6, pages 77-78: "...humans are very sensitive to variations in amplitude vs. frequency, and very insensitive to phase shifts. In other words, we do not "hear" waveforms per se, but we are very sensitive to their spectral content."
                                    Everything is left to interpretation. He himself interprets it as not having to worry about the excess group delay - of any length, so the phase response is either systematically omitted from the documents or downplayed so much that gullible reader becomes convinced of its complete insignificance. However, the audibility is easily detectable even with headphones with phase distortion equivalent to some actual speakers+subwoofer.​ Tested again a few minutes ago.​
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                                    Comment

                                    • Reet
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Dec 2007
                                      • 816

                                      #1234
                                      You may be surprised how many are oblivious to much of these "general basic things known for four decades", especially in DIY Audio where most are trying to educate themselves via the internet. Most are struggling with basic concepts and interpretation of SP and PIR, let alone group delay, step response, etc. Where should one go to find a consolidated gospel of truth, laid out in a concise progression path like a textbook for a complete understanding of acoustics as it related to loudspeaker design?
                                      I'm not deaf, I'm just not listening!

                                      Comment

                                      • kimmosto
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Dec 2006
                                        • 711

                                        #1235
                                        Originally posted by Reet
                                        Where should one go to find a consolidated gospel of truth, laid out in a concise progression path like a textbook for a complete understanding of acoustics as it related to loudspeaker design?
                                        I agree that available textbooks and internet sites are not very inclusive, and data has been scattered to many places. The best books for beginners are DIY speaker books such as Dickason's (in English) and Tuomela's (in Finnish). CTA-2034-A standard fills few holes in those because it's just 2+ decades old. For example ER, PIR and SP. Lack of goals/recommendations and best practices is a big problem. Usefulness of old generic basic/filtered studies (by Toole), deep theories (by Beranek&Mellow) and publications in AES Library is quite light for designing imo.
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                                        AI can search and summarize, but ​it could lie smoothly or just quote forum discussions so everything must be questioned and verified.
                                        Maybe we should write something better
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                                        Comment

                                        • Reet
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Dec 2007
                                          • 816

                                          #1236
                                          I would say yes, but I also know that writing a book is a lot of work, and I already have a full time job. Also, in the effort of keeping with the times, a video series would be much more popular with "internet education" in mind. Again, a lot of work to do it well and cover many topics in depth.

                                          For sale, Marius from Audio judgement sells some courses here:
                                          Acoustics 101 : Speaker design basics and enclosure design Learn the basics of acoustics, what makes a speaker, and how does it produce sound. What are those Thiele / Small parameters…


                                          I can't vouch for how good they are or the accuracy of information contained within, however.
                                          I'm not deaf, I'm just not listening!

                                          Comment


                                          • tktran
                                            tktran commented
                                            Editing a comment
                                            I can. They are good for beginner level. Only problem is he is using single channel measurement technique and Xsim.

                                            As a previous course user, I reach out to him and said, you should update your course for dual channel and using VituixCAD2, and he vehemently agreed. When he has some time...
                                        • tktran
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Jan 2005
                                          • 703

                                          #1237
                                          Kimmo,

                                          You are correct that the 8260A was the first coaxial that was made into a Genelec. It was Ilpo's idea but the design was such they could only make 6 a day.

                                          After this they decided to use 2 oval woofers, above and below the centrally mounted large "baffle" 8351A - Genelec.com but to do this, they needed to hire a transducer designer. (Genelec could not design/simulate driver's prior to this) The smaller Ones came out later. 8341A, 8331A, together marketted as The Ones: gen_theones_brochure_210x279_12pager_lowres_0.pdf

                                          The larger 8361A and updated 8351B came later.

                                          But putting subwoofer against a hard surface might be OK for subwoofer egs. <120Hz, but woofers that cross up as high as 320Hz to meet the coaxial.

                                          Well the designers must be listening with their eyes. Or people are measuring incorrectly and not paying attention to Time Domain.

                                          Comment

                                          • bnilsson
                                            Junior Member
                                            • Sep 2025
                                            • 0

                                            #1238
                                            Dear all,

                                            I have a question about the Diffraction Tool.
                                            I have a cylindrical enclosure standing vertical with the driver mounted on top, pointing upwards.
                                            Consequently the orientation is 90 degrees vertically in reference to the listener.
                                            I have selected a listening/microphone distance of 1000mm, which will be in the same plane as the driver mount, sideways to the cylinder axis.
                                            In the layout graph describing the baffle, driver and microphone, where should the microphone be located to conform to this geometry?
                                            Should it be in the middle of the driver, or at the bottom, outside the baffle?

                                            BN

                                            Comment

                                            • bnilsson
                                              Junior Member
                                              • Sep 2025
                                              • 0

                                              #1239
                                              I have a question about low and high shelf filters in VituixCad.
                                              If I connect a first order 1000Hz 6dB HS and a first order 1000Hz 6dB LS in series I expect them to give a straight 6dB gain, no frequency dependence.
                                              This is how such a filter combination behaves in REW, and also in SigmaStudio DSP design software.
                                              However, in VituixCad I get a bump of +2dB at 1000Hz over the +6dB flat. Why?
                                              This behaviour make a design tuned in VituixCad not transferrable to e.g. SigmaStudio, which is annoying.

                                              Comment

                                              • kimmosto
                                                Senior Member
                                                • Dec 2006
                                                • 711

                                                #1240
                                                Originally posted by bnilsson
                                                If I connect a first order 1000Hz 6dB HS and a first order 1000Hz 6dB LS in series I expect them to give a straight 6dB gain, no frequency dependence.
                                                There are two different specifications for corner frequency of shelving filters. I would call them "analog" compatible and "RBJ digital" compatible. Corner frequency is kinda "-3 dB point" with "analog", and middle gain (in dB) with "RBJ digital". For example Sigma Studio and miniDSP use "RBJ digital", and most of European brands use "analog" specification. The same problem exists with 2nd order shelf and Bessel HP/LP filters. This is really annoying imo too.

                                                So you need to select suitable DSP system in Options window to be compatible with your gear or app. Generic should be compatible with Sigma Studio. Another gear using Sigma project is Platin SM 48k, but it's for 48k sample only. I use that DSP amp quite often.

                                                ​​
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                                                Comment


                                                • bnilsson
                                                  bnilsson commented
                                                  Editing a comment
                                                  Thank you, that fixed the problem.
                                              • kimmosto
                                                Senior Member
                                                • Dec 2006
                                                • 711

                                                #1241
                                                Originally posted by bnilsson
                                                I have a cylindrical enclosure standing vertical with the driver mounted on top, pointing upwards.
                                                Consequently the orientation is 90 degrees vertically in reference to the listener.
                                                I have selected a listening/microphone distance of 1000mm, which will be in the same plane as the driver mount, sideways to the cylinder axis.
                                                In the layout graph describing the baffle, driver and microphone, where should the microphone be located to conform to this geometry?
                                                Should it be in the middle of the driver, or at the bottom, outside the baffle?
                                                Baffle step is not visible to 90 deg off-axis with this kind of very simple diffraction simulation. Response includes directivity of an ideal piston, but nothing more. If you are creating diffraction response for Merger tool, you can create circular baffle (36 corners, height=width), driver and mic in the center point, and export response to 90 deg off-axis. Hor or Ver does not matter. Axis distance should be what Merger needs; one export to 30000 mm and another to distance where actual far field measurements are captured.
                                                Click image for larger version

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                                                Comment


                                                • bnilsson
                                                  bnilsson commented
                                                  Editing a comment
                                                  Thanks.
                                                  That brings up another related question regarding Merger.
                                                  I have never been able to understand, or missed it completely in the instructions, why does Merger need two diffraction correction files, one near (e.g. 1000mm) and one far (e.g. 5000mm)?

                                                • Reet
                                                  Reet commented
                                                  Editing a comment
                                                  1m measurement distance is still not completely far field as 3m typical listening distance, so 1m diffraction response allows for small improvement of accuracy. For a similar reason, near field diffraction is completed using 10-30m distance, not 1m. It helps to avoid speakers sounding too thin due to inadequate BSC from inaccurate response data.
                                              • kimmosto
                                                Senior Member
                                                • Dec 2006
                                                • 711

                                                #1242
                                                2.0.130.1 (2025-09-28)

                                                Enclosure
                                                • Fixed compliance calculation with isobaric configuration. Bug since 2.0.15.1 (2019-04-28).
                                                • 'W to Ohm' text box updated also with isobaric configuration.
                                                Last edited by kimmosto; 28 September 2025, 13:27 Sunday.
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                                                Comment

                                                • mv8
                                                  Junior Member
                                                  • May 2021
                                                  • 12

                                                  #1243
                                                  kimmosto Kimmo, I sometimes use SoundEasy for measurements, which, in my opinion, has an interesting function of “cleaning” measurements from the influence of the room. It is solved using the Cepstral Deconvolution or Matching Filter function. If you have the time and the will to read a bit of the SoundEasy manual, it might be worth adding this feature to the Convert IR to FR tool?

                                                  When used correctly, this feature allows you to avoid combining near-field and far-field measurements.

                                                  https://www.bodziosoftware.com.au/ SoundEasy V30 Reference Manual: Chapter 16.2, from page 16 to the end.

                                                  Comment

                                                  • Reet
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Dec 2007
                                                    • 816

                                                    #1244
                                                    I don't see anyway around the merge process in VituixCAD, regardless of the method to fill in the low frequency portion of the windowed response, you still need a mechanism to apply it to the complete "high frequency portion" measurement set in bulk.

                                                    There's nothing preventing you from loading an un-windowed measurement as an overlay, use active filter components to design the equivalent matching filter and use that as the low frequency portion in the merge tool. I'm not sure it's saving many steps though, it may actually be a faster process just to measure near field and simulate diffraction.

                                                    Cepstral editing was one of the more unique features of SoundEasy when I used it. I thought it was a very cool feature with a very clunky UI, and at the time I was using SE it was limited to only a maximum of 48kHz measurement sample rate.

                                                    I'm not deaf, I'm just not listening!

                                                    Comment

                                                    • mv8
                                                      Junior Member
                                                      • May 2021
                                                      • 12

                                                      #1245
                                                      Originally posted by Reet
                                                      I don't see anyway around the merge process in VituixCAD, regardless of the method to fill in the low frequency portion of the windowed response, you still need a mechanism to apply it to the complete "high frequency portion" measurement set in bulk.

                                                      There's nothing preventing you from loading an un-windowed measurement as an overlay, use active filter components to design the equivalent matching filter and use that as the low frequency portion in the merge tool. I'm not sure it's saving many steps though, it may actually be a faster process just to measure near field and simulate diffraction.

                                                      Cepstral editing was one of the more unique features of SoundEasy when I used it. I thought it was a very cool feature with a very clunky UI, and at the time I was using SE it was limited to only a maximum of 48kHz measurement sample rate.
                                                      Have you tried measuring spinorama on a turntable using SoundEasy with the Matched Filter function?

                                                      Comment

                                                      • Reet
                                                        Senior Member
                                                        • Dec 2007
                                                        • 816

                                                        #1246
                                                        Frankly I gave up on SE on version 26 after feeling like I was paying to be a beta tester, and struggling to converse with the developer on simple concepts like whether baffle step should be treated as an energy gain or an energy loss. My comments above were simply thinking about what a practical implementation in VituixCAD would look like.

                                                        Perhaps the cepstral editor question could be posed to John Mulcahy of REW as well.
                                                        I'm not deaf, I'm just not listening!

                                                        Comment

                                                        • mv8
                                                          Junior Member
                                                          • May 2021
                                                          • 12

                                                          #1247
                                                          Sure, I understand.
                                                          Matched Filter and Cepstral Deconvolution operations are performed on impulse measurements, so I think the easiest way would be to include such a function in the Convert IR to FR tool.
                                                          Most importantly, these functions do not require any additional measurements, so when measuring far field, we have data for possible further processing.

                                                          I also see no reason why these options could not be implemented in REW.

                                                          Comment

                                                          • kimmosto
                                                            Senior Member
                                                            • Dec 2006
                                                            • 711

                                                            #1248
                                                            Originally posted by mv8
                                                            If you have the time and the will to read a bit of the SoundEasy manual, it might be worth adding this feature to the Convert IR to FR tool?
                                                            I had time to read. Procedure contains multiple steps, parameter adjustments both numerically and graphically, and some evaluations and possible undos for each measurement. Parameters probably variate depending on off-axis angle. This does not fit very well to preferred measurement procedure where each driver is measured semi/full automatically 0-180 or 0-360 with steps of 10 or 5 degrees, and LF+MF drivers at near field. Bohdan also says:
                                                            "In addition, before you start using this tool, please be aware, that close-mike measurement technique, coupled with diffraction analysis, will yield equally good, if not better results, simply because the reflections are attenuated by the virtue of the measurement technique...
                                                            Therefore, once you become confident with Cepstral Deconvolution, you may try to use it for all quick, first-cut activities, and move to close-mike measurements for the final results."


                                                            I kinda disagree with Bohdan because near field and diffraction simulation are not difficult and complex compared to cepstrum method. The only possible problem is accuracy of simplified diffraction model. SE probably has better diffraction simulation compared to VCAD's rapid and easy approach.

                                                            By the way, someone else asked averaging of impulse responses measured from different distances. That would require probably 10x more measurements for each driver, automatic and manual (sub-sample) fine tuning of timing, magnitude scaling with distance etc. Also this is possible for on-axis only, but way too extreme for off-axis with dual plane or balloon measurement.
                                                            VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

                                                            Comment

                                                            • mv8
                                                              Junior Member
                                                              • May 2021
                                                              • 12

                                                              #1249
                                                              kimmosto Thank you for your reply and explanation. May I send you a private message?

                                                              Comment

                                                              • kimmosto
                                                                Senior Member
                                                                • Dec 2006
                                                                • 711

                                                                #1250
                                                                Originally posted by mv8
                                                                May I send you a private message?
                                                                Of course though I prefer e-mail and delayed answering after few months.
                                                                VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

                                                                Comment

                                                                • mv8
                                                                  Junior Member
                                                                  • May 2021
                                                                  • 12

                                                                  #1251
                                                                  Originally posted by kimmosto

                                                                  Of course though I prefer e-mail and delayed answering after few months.
                                                                  Okay, I wanted to send you a link to a conversation I had with Bohdan about merging measurements. I am not competent enough to discuss this topic at the appropriate level, but here are a few of Bohdan's answers in which he explains why, in his opinion, the technique of combining near-field measurements and off-axis far-field measurements (as is done in VituixCAD) is wrong.

                                                                  I remembered this conversation, and that's why I asked my first question about the implementation of Matched Filter in VituixCAD.


                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • kimmosto
                                                                    Senior Member
                                                                    • Dec 2006
                                                                    • 711

                                                                    #1252
                                                                    Originally posted by mv8
                                                                    ...in his opinion, the technique of combining near-field measurements and off-axis far-field measurements (as is done in VituixCAD) is wrong.
                                                                    Of course it is wrong, and all credits belong to something else 😁 But seriously, most of the messages by Bohdan seem to include some wrong assumptions how Merger works - or at least what is possible with Diffraction+Calculator+Merger. Very short answer to default usage is that directivity of merged LF data is adopted from far field HF responses. So it does not merge plain near field multiplied by on-axis diffaction to far field with some blending. Of course not, because that would produce radical error. Time window causes smoothness to directivity data at LF. That is one of inaccuracies in default usage. Other inaccuracies are near field measurement itself (cone behavior), simulated diffraction and magnitude+phase error at LF due to time window and selected window function.
                                                                    VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • mv8
                                                                      Junior Member
                                                                      • May 2021
                                                                      • 12

                                                                      #1253
                                                                      Thanks for the explanation, Kimmo

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • kimmosto
                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                        • Dec 2006
                                                                        • 711

                                                                        #1254
                                                                        Few examples about time windowed far measurements without any post-processing could give some answers about usability of directivity data also with short time gate. Absolute accuracy is different thing, but we can make quite safe assumptions especially with simple conventional concepts without surprises in directivity:

                                                                        6.5" boxed woofer, 8" passive radiator in the back. There is some extra directivity at LF due to time window, reflections, possible noise and DC offset. That can be reduced with 'Force to gradient' feature.

                                                                        Click image for larger version  Name:	image.png Views:	0 Size:	183.3 KB ID:	959532

                                                                        2x15" woofers in I-frame dipole baffle, hor plane. DI at LF may be a bit less than in theory, but generally directivity is captured down to 20 Hz. Very much smoothed but again, we know that it is smooth with quite plain I-baffle.

                                                                        Click image for larger version  Name:	image.png Views:	0 Size:	254.2 KB ID:	959533

                                                                        Designer can use Diffraction tool to simulate directivity to 0-180 deg, and Calculator to include that directivity to any on-axis response, and finally merge two sets of far field responses with Merger: LF part contains simulated directivity and HF part measured directivity. Merging could be e.g. at 150 Hz with blending of 3-4 octaves. This is also "wrong", but so is everything (including NFS) except real far field measurements at 2-3 m in anechoic.
                                                                        Last edited by kimmosto; 29 October 2025, 00:57 Wednesday.
                                                                        VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • kimmosto
                                                                          Senior Member
                                                                          • Dec 2006
                                                                          • 711

                                                                          #1255
                                                                          I'm going to change .NET Framework requirement from 4.5.2 to 4.8 which is the last one Windows 7 sp1 supports. Would you care to test it on real Win7, Win10, Win11, some Virtual machine on macOS or linux, and possibly with Wine 10.12 or later.
                                                                          I have tested on Win 11 Pro 25H2 and Win 7 sp1 on VMware Workstation Player 16 (on Win 11 Enterprise 23H2).
                                                                          No functional changes compared to 2.0.130.1.
                                                                          ---Link removed---
                                                                          Last edited by kimmosto; 31 October 2025, 02:32 Friday.
                                                                          VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • Reet
                                                                            Senior Member
                                                                            • Dec 2007
                                                                            • 816

                                                                            #1256
                                                                            I primarily have been using VituixCAD in a Windows 10 VM. I pushed many buttons and found no issues installing the updated version above.

                                                                            Within Linux, I have avoided VituixCAD running under Wine for two reasons - performance, and right click context menu often disappears immediately after clicking, making the UI unusable. Give me a little time and I will test the new version.
                                                                            I'm not deaf, I'm just not listening!

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • draki
                                                                              Member
                                                                              • Oct 2012
                                                                              • 39

                                                                              #1257
                                                                              W11 Pro 25H2/ 64: works OK, can't notice any problem so far...

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • Reet
                                                                                Senior Member
                                                                                • Dec 2007
                                                                                • 816

                                                                                #1258
                                                                                As far as I can tell, everything is working normally via Wine, though with slower performance and ugly aliased charts. There were some messages spit out to the terminal, I'm not sure how detrimental they are. Here's an example:

                                                                                Code:
                                                                                01a4:fixme:ole:thread_context_callback_ContextCallback 00007F2821451798, 00006FFFF9F52B80, 00007FFFFF4FF850, {d7174f82-36b8-4aa8-800a-e963ab2dfab9}, 2, 0000000000000000
                                                                                01a4:fixme:ole:thread_context_callback_ContextCallback 00007F2821451798, 00006FFFF9F52B80, 00007FFFFF4FF850, {d7174f82-36b8-4aa8-800a-e963ab2dfab9}, 2, 0000000000000000
                                                                                01d8:fixme:thread:NtQueryInformationThread ThreadIsIoPending info class not supported yet
                                                                                019c:fixme:olepicture:OLEPictureImpl_QueryInterface () : asking for unsupported interface {c3fcc19e-a970-11d2-8b5a-00a0c9b7c9c4}
                                                                                019c:fixme:olepicture:OLEPictureImpl_QueryInterface () : asking for unsupported interface {b196b283-bab4-101a-b69c-00aa00341d07}
                                                                                019c:fixme:olepicture:OLEPictureImpl_QueryInterface () : asking for unsupported interface {af86e2e0-b12d-4c6a-9c5a-d7aa65101e90}
                                                                                019c:fixme:olepicture:OLEPictureImpl_QueryInterface () : asking for unsupported interface {ecc8691b-c1db-4dc0-855e-65f6c551af49}
                                                                                019c:fixme:olepicture:OLEPictureImpl_QueryInterface () : asking for unsupported interface {94ea2b94-e9cc-49e0-c0ff-ee64ca8f5b90}
                                                                                019c:fixme:olepicture:OLEPictureImpl_QueryInterface () : asking for unsupported interface {00000003-0000-0000-c000-000000000046}
                                                                                019c:fixme:olepicture:OLEPictureImpl_QueryInterface () : asking for unsupported interface {00000144-0000-0000-c000-000000000046}
                                                                                01a4:fixme:ole:thread_context_callback_ContextCallback 00007F2821451798, 00006FFFF9F52B80, 00007FFFFF4FF960, {d7174f82-36b8-4aa8-800a-e963ab2dfab9}, 2, 0000000000000000
                                                                                01a4:fixme:ole:thread_context_callback_ContextCallback 00007F2821451798, 00006FFFF9F52B80, 00007FFFFF4FF850, {d7174f82-36b8-4aa8-800a-e963ab2dfab9}, 2, 0000000000000000
                                                                                01a4:fixme:ole:thread_context_callback_ContextCallback 00007F2821451798, 00006FFFF9F52B80, 00007FFFFF4FF850, {d7174f82-36b8-4aa8-800a-e963ab2dfab9}, 2, 0000000000000000
                                                                                01a4:fixme:ole:thread_context_callback_ContextCallback 00007F2821451798, 00006FFFF9F52B80, 00007FFFFF4FF850, {d7174f82-36b8-4aa8-800a-e963ab2dfab9}, 2, 0000000000000000
                                                                                01a4:fixme:ole:thread_context_callback_ContextCallback 00007F2821451798, 00006FFFF9F52B80, 00007FFFFF4FF960, {d7174f82-36b8-4aa8-800a-e963ab2dfab9}, 2, 0000000000000000
                                                                                01a4:fixme:ole:thread_context_callback_ContextCallback 00007F2821451798, 00006FFFF9F52B80, 00007FFFFF4FF850, {d7174f82-36b8-4aa8-800a-e963ab2dfab9}, 2, 0000000000000000
                                                                                01a4:fixme:ole:thread_context_callback_ContextCallback 00007F2821451798, 00006FFFF9F52B80, 00007FFFFF4FF850, {d7174f82-36b8-4aa8-800a-e963ab2dfab9}, 2, 0000000000000000
                                                                                01a4:fixme:ole:thread_context_callback_ContextCallback 00007F2821451798, 00006FFFF9F52B80, 00007FFFFF4FF850, {d7174f82-36b8-4aa8-800a-e963ab2dfab9}, 2, 0000000000000000
                                                                                01a4:fixme:ole:thread_context_callback_ContextCallback 00007F2821451798, 00006FFFF9F52B80, 00007FFFFF4FF960, {d7174f82-36b8-4aa8-800a-e963ab2dfab9}, 2, 0000000000000000
                                                                                01a4:fixme:ole:thread_context_callback_ContextCallback 00007F2821451798, 00006FFFF9F52B80, 00007FFFFF4FF850, {d7174f82-36b8-4aa8-800a-e963ab2dfab9}, 2, 0000000000000000
                                                                                019c:fixme:oleacc:find_class_data unhandled window class: L"WindowsForms10.COMBOBOX.app.0.141b42a_r7_ad1"
                                                                                019c:fixme:oleacc:find_class_data unhandled window class: L"WindowsForms10.COMBOBOX.app.0.141b42a_r7_ad1"
                                                                                019c:fixme:oleacc:find_class_data unhandled window class: L"ComboLBox"
                                                                                019c:fixme:oleacc:find_class_data unhandled window class: L"ComboLBox"
                                                                                019c:fixme:oleacc:find_class_data unhandled window class: L"WindowsForms10.COMBOBOX.app.0.141b42a_r7_ad1"
                                                                                019c:fixme:oleacc:find_class_data unhandled window class: L"WindowsForms10.COMBOBOX.app.0.141b42a_r7_ad1"
                                                                                019c:fixme:oleacc:find_class_data unhandled window class: L"ComboLBox"
                                                                                019c:fixme:oleacc:find_class_data unhandled window class: L"ComboLBox"
                                                                                I'm not deaf, I'm just not listening!

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • kimmosto
                                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                                  • Dec 2006
                                                                                  • 711

                                                                                  #1259
                                                                                  Ok, thanks! Let's try wider publication.

                                                                                  2.0.131.0 (2025-10-29)
                                                                                  • Target framework changed from .NET Framework 4.5.2 to 4.8. That's the last supporting Windows 7 sp1.
                                                                                  VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • kimmosto
                                                                                    Senior Member
                                                                                    • Dec 2006
                                                                                    • 711

                                                                                    #1260
                                                                                    2.0.131.1 (2025-11-02)

                                                                                    Diffraction
                                                                                    • Movement of effective acoustical center to off-axis angles is simulated by subtracting group delay at 5-7 Hz from all off-axis responses, including diffracting waves. This eliminates e.g. shifting of high-pass frequency of open baffle on frequency axis as the radiator size changes.
                                                                                    VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

                                                                                    Comment

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