VituixCAD v2

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  • kimmosto
    Moderator
    • Dec 2006
    • 584

    VituixCAD v2

    For information, VituixCAD speaker simulator has been updated from version 1.1 to 2.0 with the following additions and changes (so far):
    • Crossover schematic changed from formal block ladder to free form supporting unconventional topologies.
    • Predefined passive blocks replaced with individual LCR components, wire, ground, generator and library blocks. Passive components have some new parameters; ESR, DCR, wire diameter, power.
    • Library blocks can be "smart" with parameters asked from user, option menu, variables and mathematical expressions for calculating component values by user parameters and selected filter option such as Butter, Bessel or L-R. User can add and maintain own custom blocks. Block parameters are saved to project file. Math expressions can be located in parameters of components too.
    • Operational amplifier added. Many library blocks are OP stages.
    • Max. amount of different driver models is 100 in a project. Amount of off-axis responses for each driver model is unlimited, but in practice 718 is maximum because of two planes and off-axis angle is integer value.
    • Amount of driver instances in crossover is close to unlimited. Drawing sheet area limits in practice.
    • Width of crossover schematic and graphs is adjustable with splitter control.
    • Smoothing of frequency responses.
    • Zooming In/Out/Fit/100% of crossover schematic.
    • Optional snap grid for schematic.
    • Separate schematic preview window removed.
    • Parts list changed to grid. New data: R.Pow, C.ESR, L.DCR, L.wire dia and drivers.
    • Optimizer, Impulse response and Power dissipation windows, file exports and few graphs adapted for free form schematic which doesn't have "Ways" anymore.
    • Box dimensions by volume and thickness added to Auxiliary calculator.
    • LMS short ascii response file support added.


    More information in changelog, user manual and software page.
    VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download
  • Bear
    Super Senior Member
    • Dec 2008
    • 1038

    #2
    Wow. Simply wow. Downloading now.

    And ... Thank You!! :-)
    Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

    Comment

    • 5th element
      Supreme Being Moderator
      • Sep 2009
      • 1671

      #3
      Yes, I think wow just about covers it. I've just downloaded it and given it a whirl and it certainly seems to cover all of the bases although I did have some trouble with the optimiser. It's possible that it encounters an error if the filters it has to work with aren't enough for a decent match?
      What you screamin' for, every five minutes there's a bomb or something. I'm leavin' Bzzzzzzz!
      5th Element, otherwise known as Matt.
      Now with website. www.5een.co.uk Still under construction.

      Comment

      • kimmosto
        Moderator
        • Dec 2006
        • 584

        #4
        Optimiser is pure Nelder-Mead (amoeba) without artificial intelligence added for this application. It needs decent initial values to find the best overall solution. Otherwise is could lose optimal path and find some local minimum which is far from the best. This is common behavior with other algorithms too. Only thing I could tune is perturbation; the first step away from the initial values. I've no plans to test other choices because this works okay if user bothers to adjust starting point.

        Network calculation could be faster. Version 1.1 with Ohms law is about two times faster. Linear equation solver is very smart though it's iterating, but that single iteration circle takes quite long time with complex network. I'll try to test some other math lib e.g. ALGLIB having "sparse linear conjugate gradient" algorithm.
        VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

        Comment

        • 5th element
          Supreme Being Moderator
          • Sep 2009
          • 1671

          #5
          I tried repeating the same thing today, just to give an example of what went wrong, as the deviation from the target wasn't all that high, it just kept throwing up a large error and increasing the Q of a 2nd order filter block, rather than trying to actually fit the line.

          Repeating things today didn't throw up the same issue, obviously I am using slightly different parameters as I cannot exactly remember how things were yesterday, but it's passing with flying colours.

          Would it be possible to add in limits to the optimiser to bandwidth constrain it? Such as say optimise between 500Hz and 10kHz for a tweeter, such that the optimiser would then ignore any ragged low end response, due to measurement limitations, or upper octave dips/peaks from waveguides etc? It would also allow you to get the optimiser to focus in on various parts of the frequency response that are more important. For example, I am optimising the tweeter that I tried yesterday and it's doing a decent job of it this time, but it's paying a lot of attention into matching the response way down into the stop band, but leaving a rather decent bump in the transition band. I would much rather the optimiser choose to deviate away from the target down at -20dB and concentrate on flattening the bump instead.

          Another decent addition would be for the optimiser to include variable Q targets. Such that you pick 4th order, but instead of being constrained to Butterworth or Linkwitz, for example, you can select variable Q and then choose for yourself. Then being able to select any order along with the variable Q. This would be quite useful when fine tuning asymmetric passive crossovers. And finally a slider to slow down the optimisation process would be quite nice too, so you can potentially stop after an iteration because that's actually preferable to letting it completely run.

          This may seem like I am nitpicking, but being a long time LspCAD user, some of these things I find extremely useful and some of them are just things that I would find extremely useful anyway.

          Many thanks again!

          Update - When working with the enclosure designer there is a tick box that enables you to apply the transfer function of the crossover of the current driver. This is buggy. If I apply a LT to a sealed box and click the apply button it will do so. But if I then alter the settings of the LT, it does not update the response applied to the driver and selecting/deselecting the 'crossover of current driver' buttons doesn't do anything. If I click 'optimise toggle' of the driver in the crossover window it seems to update something and the crossover will now carry over to the enclosure designer.

          I also got this error message.


          See the end of this message for details on invoking
          just-in-time (JIT) debugging instead of this dialog box.

          ************** Exception Text **************
          System.ArgumentOutOfRangeException: Index was out of range. Must be non-negative and less than the size of the collection.
          Parameter name: index
          at System.ThrowHelper.ThrowArgumentOutOfRangeExceptio n(ExceptionArgument argument, ExceptionResource resource)
          at Vituixman.FormMain.u3T2WBYIAU(Object , DataGridViewCellEventArgs )
          at System.Windows.Forms.DataGridView.OnCellEndEdit(Da taGridViewCellEventArgs e)
          at System.Windows.Forms.DataGridView.EndEdit(DataGrid ViewDataErrorContexts context, DataGridViewValidateCellInternal validateCell, Boolean fireCellLeave, Boolean fireCellEnter, Boolean fireRowLeave, Boolean fireRowEnter, Boolean fireLeave, Boolean keepFocus, Boolean resetCurrentCell, Boolean resetAnchorCell)
          at System.Windows.Forms.DataGridView.SetCurrentCellAd dressCore(Int32 columnIndex, Int32 rowIndex, Boolean setAnchorCellAddress, Boolean validateCurrentCell, Boolean throughMouseClick)
          at System.Windows.Forms.DataGridView.OnRemovingRow(In t32 rowIndexDeleted, Point& newCurrentCell, Boolean force)
          at System.Windows.Forms.DataGridViewRowCollection.Rem oveAtInternal(Int32 index, Boolean force)
          at System.Windows.Forms.DataGridView.set_RowCount(Int 32 value)
          at Vituixman.FormMain.ParametersGridRefresh()
          at Vituixman.FormMain.uq32plrtPH(String )
          at Vituixman.FormMain.Q2C2R7GqsG()
          at Vituixman.FormMain.c7G2Z8FXON(Object , EventArgs )
          at Vituixman.KSpeaker.set_TopIndex(Int32 value)
          at Vituixman.FormMain.Mbk8ExvvQS(Object , MouseEventArgs )
          at System.Windows.Forms.Control.OnMouseDown(MouseEven tArgs e)
          at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WmMouseDown(Message& m, MouseButtons button, Int32 clicks)
          at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WndProc(Message& m)
          at System.Windows.Forms.NativeWindow.Callback(IntPtr hWnd, Int32 msg, IntPtr wparam, IntPtr lparam)


          ************** Loaded Assemblies **************
          mscorlib
          Assembly Version: 4.0.0.0
          Win32 Version: 4.7.3101.0 built by: NET472REL1LAST_B
          CodeBase: file:///C:/Windows/Microsoft.NET/Framework64/v4.0.30319/mscorlib.dll
          ----------------------------------------
          VituixCAD2
          Assembly Version: 2.0.2.0
          Win32 Version: 2.0.2.0
          CodeBase: file:///C:/Program%20Files%20(x86)/VituixCAD/VituixCAD2.exe
          ----------------------------------------
          System.Windows.Forms
          Assembly Version: 4.0.0.0
          Win32 Version: 4.7.3056.0 built by: NET472REL1
          CodeBase: file:///C:/WINDOWS/Microsoft.Net/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Windows.Forms/v4.0_4.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.Windows.Forms.dll
          ----------------------------------------
          System
          Assembly Version: 4.0.0.0
          Win32 Version: 4.7.3056.0 built by: NET472REL1
          CodeBase: file:///C:/WINDOWS/Microsoft.Net/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System/v4.0_4.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.dll
          ----------------------------------------
          System.Drawing
          Assembly Version: 4.0.0.0
          Win32 Version: 4.7.3056.0 built by: NET472REL1
          CodeBase: file:///C:/WINDOWS/Microsoft.Net/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Drawing/v4.0_4.0.0.0__b03f5f7f11d50a3a/System.Drawing.dll
          ----------------------------------------
          System.Numerics
          Assembly Version: 4.0.0.0
          Win32 Version: 4.7.3056.0 built by: NET472REL1
          CodeBase: file:///C:/WINDOWS/Microsoft.Net/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Numerics/v4.0_4.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.Numerics.dll
          ----------------------------------------
          System.Core
          Assembly Version: 4.0.0.0
          Win32 Version: 4.7.3101.0 built by: NET472REL1LAST_B
          CodeBase: file:///C:/WINDOWS/Microsoft.Net/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Core/v4.0_4.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.Core.dll
          ----------------------------------------
          System.Configuration
          Assembly Version: 4.0.0.0
          Win32 Version: 4.7.3056.0 built by: NET472REL1
          CodeBase: file:///C:/WINDOWS/Microsoft.Net/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Configuration/v4.0_4.0.0.0__b03f5f7f11d50a3a/System.Configuration.dll
          ----------------------------------------
          System.Xml
          Assembly Version: 4.0.0.0
          Win32 Version: 4.7.3056.0 built by: NET472REL1
          CodeBase: file:///C:/WINDOWS/Microsoft.Net/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Xml/v4.0_4.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.Xml.dll
          ----------------------------------------
          Microsoft.GeneratedCode
          Assembly Version: 1.0.0.0
          Win32 Version: 4.7.3056.0 built by: NET472REL1
          CodeBase: file:///C:/WINDOWS/Microsoft.Net/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Xml/v4.0_4.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.Xml.dll
          ----------------------------------------
          Accessibility
          Assembly Version: 4.0.0.0
          Win32 Version: 4.7.3056.0 built by: NET472REL1
          CodeBase: file:///C:/WINDOWS/Microsoft.Net/assembly/GAC_MSIL/Accessibility/v4.0_4.0.0.0__b03f5f7f11d50a3a/Accessibility.dll
          ----------------------------------------

          ************** JIT Debugging **************
          To enable just-in-time (JIT) debugging, the .config file for this
          application or computer (machine.config) must have the
          jitDebugging value set in the system.windows.forms section.
          The application must also be compiled with debugging
          enabled.

          For example:

          <configuration>
          <system.windows.forms jitDebugging="true" />
          </configuration>

          When JIT debugging is enabled, any unhandled exception
          will be sent to the JIT debugger registered on the computer
          rather than be handled by this dialog box.
          What you screamin' for, every five minutes there's a bomb or something. I'm leavin' Bzzzzzzz!
          5th Element, otherwise known as Matt.
          Now with website. www.5een.co.uk Still under construction.

          Comment

          • kimmosto
            Moderator
            • Dec 2006
            • 584

            #6
            Originally posted by 5th element
            Would it be possible to add in limits to the optimiser to bandwidth constrain it? Such as say optimise between 500Hz and 10kHz for a tweeter, such that the optimiser would then ignore any ragged low end response, due to measurement limitations, or upper octave dips/peaks from waveguides etc?
            There is frequency range constraints also for optimising SPL response or filter's magnitude response of single driver. Textboxes are located just below driver selection combo box. Problem for user is that limits are calculated automatically when filter type/shape or low/high pass frequency or filter order of target curve is changed or different driver is selected. Previous changes to values are lost. Limits should be visible in the graph (just like in LspCAD) that user would see all changes in target curve.

            Originally posted by 5th element
            Another decent addition would be for the optimiser to include variable Q targets.
            Bessel, Butterworth and L-R options are playing different Q factors. Earlier there was also some Linear phase but that was quite close to idea of Bessel. I think that those three are quite adequate as driver targets because final tuning for speaker is done by optimising combination of total axial and power response. In that point response shape and "acoustic Q" of each driver will change anyway (if user has allowed changes with Opt-bit).
            Usually single 2nd order stage can have adjustable Q factor. That is possible to add, but higher orders are difficult to arrange because parameters of each stage are specified in design tables like this one.

            Originally posted by 5th element
            ...being a long time LspCAD user.
            So am I.

            Originally posted by 5th element
            But if I then alter the settings of the LT, it does not update the response applied to the driver and selecting/deselecting the 'crossover of current driver' buttons doesn't do anything.
            ...
            Index was out of range.
            Thanks for information. I will check these out.

            "Index out of range" error is usually related to situations when project should be opened and one driver selected from crossover (or Drivers tab), but it is not. Part of the old code copied from version 1 doesn't work well because some driver was always selected in version 1. I've found some of those but few left.
            VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

            Comment

            • kimmosto
              Moderator
              • Dec 2006
              • 584

              #7
              Originally posted by 5th element
              But if I then alter the settings of the LT, it does not update the response applied to the driver and selecting/deselecting the 'crossover of current driver' buttons doesn't do anything.
              This is now fixed with quick n' dirty workaround with timer of 1000 ms. Feature won't be logical and clear for users in version 2 because after you have modified the crossover, you need to click the driver again in order to inform Enclosure tool which driver is currently selected. This has always been just an auxiliary workaround for LT tuning etc. but now it's worse than ever
              VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

              Comment

              • kimmosto
                Moderator
                • Dec 2006
                • 584

                #8
                Originally posted by kimmosto
                Limits should be visible in the graph (just like in LspCAD) that user would see all changes in target curve.
                This is done in rev 2.0.2.2. Driver's SPL target curve is thicker (2px) than earlier to improve visibility of frequency range constraints.
                VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

                Comment

                • 5th element
                  Supreme Being Moderator
                  • Sep 2009
                  • 1671

                  #9
                  Originally posted by kimmosto
                  There is frequency range constraints also for optimising SPL response or filter's magnitude response of single driver. Textboxes are located just below driver selection combo box. Problem for user is that limits are calculated automatically when filter type/shape or low/high pass frequency or filter order of target curve is changed or different driver is selected. Previous changes to values are lost. Limits should be visible in the graph (just like in LspCAD) that user would see all changes in target curve.
                  Ah! I thought those were only relevant when you selected 'filter gain of driver'. The updated version makes the limits a lot clearer.


                  Originally posted by kimmosto
                  Bessel, Butterworth and L-R options are playing different Q factors. Earlier there was also some Linear phase but that was quite close to idea of Bessel. I think that those three are quite adequate as driver targets because final tuning for speaker is done by optimising combination of total axial and power response.
                  Usually the way I design passive crossovers is to start with an ideal acoustic slope at a suitable crossover frequency and see the way the phase integrates. Then I'll deviate away from the ideal acoustic slopes, to asymmetric, for a decent phase alignment. The way I do this with LspCAD is to use live update, small optimisation steps, and then real time alter the Q and filter order. Due to the small step sizes, the optimiser takes its time drifting, from say a 4th order LW target, to a 4th order BW target. I observe the reverse null as it drifts, see if it improves etc, to get an idea of what degree of asymmetry I'm going to need to get the drivers properly integrated. Due to the speed of the optimiser in Vituix this is impossible. Maybe I'm the only one who does it this way.

                  Originally posted by kimmosto
                  "Index out of range" error is usually related to situations when project should be opened and one driver selected from crossover (or Drivers tab), but it is not. Part of the old code copied from version 1 doesn't work well because some driver was always selected in version 1. I've found some of those but few left.
                  Alrighty.
                  What you screamin' for, every five minutes there's a bomb or something. I'm leavin' Bzzzzzzz!
                  5th Element, otherwise known as Matt.
                  Now with website. www.5een.co.uk Still under construction.

                  Comment

                  • 5th element
                    Supreme Being Moderator
                    • Sep 2009
                    • 1671

                    #10
                    Originally posted by kimmosto
                    This is now fixed with quick n' dirty workaround with timer of 1000 ms. Feature won't be logical and clear for users in version 2 because after you have modified the crossover, you need to click the driver again in order to inform Enclosure tool which driver is currently selected. This has always been just an auxiliary workaround for LT tuning etc. but now it's worse than ever
                    At least there is a way to workaround it!
                    What you screamin' for, every five minutes there's a bomb or something. I'm leavin' Bzzzzzzz!
                    5th Element, otherwise known as Matt.
                    Now with website. www.5een.co.uk Still under construction.

                    Comment

                    • kimmosto
                      Moderator
                      • Dec 2006
                      • 584

                      #11
                      Originally posted by 5th element
                      Then I'll deviate away from the ideal acoustic slopes, to asymmetric, for a decent phase alignment...
                      I observe the reverse null as it drifts, see if it improves etc, to get an idea of what degree of asymmetry I'm going to need to get the drivers properly integrated... Maybe I'm the only one who does it this way.
                      Maybe. This is not the best thread to discuss about design strategies, but at least I wouldn't care too much about phase matching. It is one of many tools to affect sound balance and sound stage, but usefulness or harmfulness depends on directivity features of selected drivers, crossover frequencies and enclosure type (open/closed/leaking). Some concepts could benefit phase matching, but some could suffer. Therefore primary design policy should be that you'll get clean, balanced, high resolution and dynamic sound no matter how matched or unmatched phase responses of adjacent ways are. In practice, optimising combination of axial and power responses gives valuable information how much you can care about phase match and deep reverse nulls. After all, it's not #1 priority task for optimiser.
                      VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

                      Comment

                      • cochinada
                        Senior Member
                        • May 2014
                        • 658

                        #12
                        Outstanding! The best just became better.
                        However, I'm not able to open my projects made in version 1.1.25. I get this message "File is not valid VituixCAD project".
                        Joaquim

                        DIY 4 way speakers.
                        DIY subwoofers.
                        Zaph ZD3C.

                        Comment

                        • kimmosto
                          Moderator
                          • Dec 2006
                          • 584

                          #13
                          Originally posted by cochinada
                          However, I'm not able to open my projects made in version 1.1.25. I get this message "File is not valid VituixCAD project".
                          Network structure and project files of version 1 are so different that separate conversion program would be required. I suppose we all have converted the most valuable old projects before such tool is ready. I have more than 130 projects with version 1, but less than ten are active and worth to convert to version 2. Manual work takes few minutes per project.
                          VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

                          Comment

                          • 5th element
                            Supreme Being Moderator
                            • Sep 2009
                            • 1671

                            #14
                            Originally posted by kimmosto
                            Maybe. This is not the best thread to discuss about design strategies, but at least I wouldn't care too much about phase matching. It is one of many tools to affect sound balance and sound stage, but usefulness or harmfulness depends on directivity features of selected drivers, crossover frequencies and enclosure type (open/closed/leaking). Some concepts could benefit phase matching, but some could suffer. Therefore primary design policy should be that you'll get clean, balanced, high resolution and dynamic sound no matter how matched or unmatched phase responses of adjacent ways are. In practice, optimising combination of axial and power responses gives valuable information how much you can care about phase match and deep reverse nulls. After all, it's not #1 priority task for optimiser.

                            All I'm trying to do is offer suggestions that would make the software more flexible, not everyone will use every given feature, we all have different design processes. I figured if it's something that would be easy to code/add (the variable Q target) then it certainly can't hurt to include it. I, for one, would definitely use it, maybe you wouldn't, but this doesn't make my (or someone elses) design process incorrect.
                            What you screamin' for, every five minutes there's a bomb or something. I'm leavin' Bzzzzzzz!
                            5th Element, otherwise known as Matt.
                            Now with website. www.5een.co.uk Still under construction.

                            Comment

                            • kimmosto
                              Moderator
                              • Dec 2006
                              • 584

                              #15
                              ^"2nd order" with adjustable Q factor is now added to driver's SPL target list. As mentioned earlier, higher order (3...8 ) filters are usually (and also in this case) fixed textbook versions. Of course it is possible to allow adjustment of some 2nd order stage(s) in the chain, but I'd like to encourage users to put that effort to next (final) phase: total axial, power and DI responses.

                              Two more 'index out of range' bugs related to driver selection found and fixed to rev 2.0.3.
                              VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

                              Comment

                              • 5th element
                                Supreme Being Moderator
                                • Sep 2009
                                • 1671

                                #16
                                Originally posted by kimmosto
                                ^"2nd order" with adjustable Q factor is now added to driver's SPL target list. As mentioned earlier, higher order (3...8 ) filters are usually (and also in this case) fixed textbook versions. Of course it is possible to allow adjustment of some 2nd order stage(s) in the chain, but I'd like to encourage users to put that effort to next (final) phase: total axial, power and DI responses.

                                Two more 'index out of range' bugs related to driver selection found and fixed to rev 2.0.3.
                                Thanks for that, although I was really hoping it would be variable Q and variable order, although that might be harder to implement.
                                What you screamin' for, every five minutes there's a bomb or something. I'm leavin' Bzzzzzzz!
                                5th Element, otherwise known as Matt.
                                Now with website. www.5een.co.uk Still under construction.

                                Comment

                                • kimmosto
                                  Moderator
                                  • Dec 2006
                                  • 584

                                  #17
                                  It's not much harder but there is not much sense in my opinion to adjust some very special target curve with N=3...8 for individual driver and then run optimiser for a minute only to get response for a single driver which probably won't integrate to adjacent way in total axial and power responses. Special cases are faster to adjust directly with component/parameter values without messing up with customized partial targets and optimiser. Theoretical background for this is that textbook responses such as Linkwitz-Riley are already designed to integrate by magnitude or power or flat group delay etc. Optimising of total takes care of the rest, typically compomising axial to get more balanced power.

                                  One risk is that user loses control what he's actually doing and what was original textbook Q factor before adjustments. For example, all 8th order filters have four separate 2nd order stages with different Q factor for each section. 8th order Bessel: 0.5060, 1.2258, 0.7109, 0.5597. I could decide and implement that users have access to Q factor of the first 2nd order section. Value would look quite random and change in textbox every time filter type or order changes for any reason. After few clicks and mouse wheeling user might be quite confused what has happened and is target close to L-R or Bessel or w.t.f.

                                  Also LspCAD 5 & 6 have Q adjustment for 2nd order only. I suppose reasoning has been the same on the other side of Gulf of Bothnia.
                                  VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

                                  Comment

                                  • kimmosto
                                    Moderator
                                    • Dec 2006
                                    • 584

                                    #18
                                    I think that decent workaround for imitating Q value of 3rd...8th order HP/LP filters would be correction factor common for Q factor of all 2nd order sections. 1.0 would give textbook response. Some odd order filters might react less perfect but even order should be okay.
                                    VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

                                    Comment

                                    • 5th element
                                      Supreme Being Moderator
                                      • Sep 2009
                                      • 1671

                                      #19
                                      I wasn't wanting to use the variable Q, variable order slope, as an actual target in the classic sense. I was wanting to use it for fine tuning asymmetric slopes in passive designs, where asymmetry is needed for decent integration.

                                      As mentioned before, in LspCAD, lets say I already had perfect LW4 acoustic slopes in a passive 2 way design @2kHz. But lets say the phase tracking isn't great and some asymmetry is required to fine tune things. In LspCAD I would set the optimiser step size very small and then set the optimiser a new target. Instead of the tweeter being LW4 @2kHz I would set it to Butterworth4 @ 2.1khz. Then via live update I would let the optimiser drift slowly towards the new target and see how the phase tracking changes. Is it better or worse? And see at which point during the drift it actually improves, if at all. Then I'd go back to the LW4 @ 2kHz and try something else, maybe using a theoretical LW5 slope this time and see how phase tracking potentially improves during the drift. After trying several different approaches I'd learn which direction to move in for this specific design and use what I'd leant from the trial and error above for fine tuning the design.

                                      As your optimiser is very quick it's impossible to watch it drift from one slope to another whilst live viewing what works and what doesn't. So instead of a slow drift I would set a very small change in the optimiser and instead of watching LspCAD slowly drift from a LW4 @ 2kHz target towards a BW4 @2.1kHz, I would potentially choose a Q of 0.55, optimise to it in half a second (with Virtuix), see what its like, then change it to 0.6, then 0.65 etc. Basically doing the same thing iteratively instead of one smooth operation.

                                      Does this make sense now?
                                      What you screamin' for, every five minutes there's a bomb or something. I'm leavin' Bzzzzzzz!
                                      5th Element, otherwise known as Matt.
                                      Now with website. www.5een.co.uk Still under construction.

                                      Comment

                                      • kimmosto
                                        Moderator
                                        • Dec 2006
                                        • 584

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by 5th element
                                        I wasn't wanting to use the variable Q, variable order slope, as an actual target in the classic sense. I was wanting to use it for fine tuning asymmetric slopes in passive designs, where asymmetry is needed for decent integration.
                                        ...
                                        Does this make sense now?
                                        I think your goal is clear.
                                        It is known that for example ideal textbook LR2 does not give exact phase match with 3 ways or more. Some wiseguys have developed idealistic design formulas with accuracy of ten decimals to solve the "problem" which is quite academic nitpicking imo. But, this phenomenon could be emphasized in real life systems due to differences in acoustic centers or non-minimum phase features of the radiators. Therefore designer may want to use Q or order which deviate from textbook responses to get better phase match or magnitude sum. At this point I usually repeat myself: better phase match is bad thing for the sound if it increases power response dip, but you can skip this now

                                        My method to aim between integer orders and standard Q factors of textbook responses is simpler than using targets and optimiser. Just adjust component value which is able to make that trick until phase responses match in GD & Phase graph (or deeper reverse null) or magnitude response is better etc. Those components are typically series resistor of shunt coils and shunt caps, or 2nd cap of 3rd order high pass. Then continue optimising total axial and power, or individual driver's SPL, but previously adjusted component value locked (Opt-bit off).

                                        If optimizer should make also phase matching, it should have phase response target or some constraints for phase differences of adjacent drivers. Then we may generate new problems: optimiser could be very versatile and flexible, but optimising takes more time than manual adjustment due to complexity of parameterization. I may not be the best example, but I couldn't optimise anything with LspCAD 6 because of too many targets and constraints or what ever the reason was. I'd like to keep things simple and direct to keep optimiser faster than manual.
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                                        Comment

                                        • 5th element
                                          Supreme Being Moderator
                                          • Sep 2009
                                          • 1671

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by kimmosto
                                          I may not be the best example, but I couldn't optimise anything with LspCAD 6 because of too many targets and constraints or what ever the reason was. I'd like to keep things simple and direct to keep optimiser faster than manual.
                                          I think you've just hit the nail on the head with that comment in a way and that is to say....'Rubbish in, Rubbish out'.

                                          I do agree in that making the optimiser too complicated, or having too many variables makes it, not only, harder to use but also prohibitive to use towards the actual design process. I've used both LspCAD5 and LspCAD6s optimisers and you do have to be quite careful in their application, not only in the targets you set, but in monitoring component values and removing as many components from the optimisation process as you can. Otherwise...things just run away with themselves and you're in a worse position than you were before you used it!
                                          What you screamin' for, every five minutes there's a bomb or something. I'm leavin' Bzzzzzzz!
                                          5th Element, otherwise known as Matt.
                                          Now with website. www.5een.co.uk Still under construction.

                                          Comment

                                          • kimmosto
                                            Moderator
                                            • Dec 2006
                                            • 584

                                            #22
                                            Rev 2.0.3.1 (2018-06-10):
                                            * Crossover network calculation speed improved 15-20x by using dense matrix solver with LUP decomposition.
                                            VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

                                            Comment

                                            • kimmosto
                                              Moderator
                                              • Dec 2006
                                              • 584

                                              #23
                                              Max. internal frequency returned back to 40 kHz in rev. 2.0.3.2 (2018-06-11). It doesn't bother anymore because network calculation is 15x faster than two days ago.
                                              Also refreshing of parameters grid is returned how it was in ver. 1.1 to avoid lag in display while mouse wheeling.
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                                              Comment

                                              • kimmosto
                                                Moderator
                                                • Dec 2006
                                                • 584

                                                #24
                                                Few small but helpful changes done to wiring since previous post. I've no plans for wiring anymore, though list of possibilities is endless (unlike my programming resources and life expectancy). Some circuit simulators and schematic capturing tools could be better, but I suppose this is quite adequate for crossover simulator. Improvement suggestions will be read as before.

                                                2.0.3.5 (2018-06-13)
                                                * Segment of an existing hor/ver wire is splitted and junction created if user clicks intermediate point while adding new wire. Wire to be added won't split even it travels via component terminal or endpoint or corner of some existing wire.
                                                * Black dot is drawn to common nodes of two (or more) wires to visualise junctions. Dots are not rendered while adding and dragging, to library block images and wires not connected to network.

                                                2.0.3.4 (2018-06-12)
                                                * Wire propagation and terminal pairing improved to get red dot to all terminals which are not connected to other terminal.
                                                * Black dot removed from wire ends to avoid giving impression that wire is connected to another wire if it is not.

                                                2.0.3.3 (2018-06-12)
                                                * Fixed crash with incomplete network. Bug since 2.0.3.1 (2018-06-10), related to data types of new high speed network solver.
                                                VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

                                                Comment

                                                • kimmosto
                                                  Moderator
                                                  • Dec 2006
                                                  • 584

                                                  #25
                                                  Setup of the latest 2.0.3.6 build includes also Library\Passive_blocks_V1.zip containing all blocks of version 1. Unzip files to VituixCAD\Library folder if you have old projects to convert from 1 to 2 or find blocks useful otherwise.
                                                  New build enables also purging of this kind of "stupid" blocks without attributes via Tune block window.
                                                  VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

                                                  Comment

                                                  • kimmosto
                                                    Moderator
                                                    • Dec 2006
                                                    • 584

                                                    #26
                                                    Video lesson for basic functions of crossover network: https://youtu.be/v_cd3V4mbiA
                                                    VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

                                                    Comment

                                                    • kimmosto
                                                      Moderator
                                                      • Dec 2006
                                                      • 584

                                                      #27
                                                      Rev 2.0.3.10 (2018-07-10)

                                                      * Shelving frequency at middle gain checkbox "finally" added to Options window. If checked, nominal frequency of generic active shelving filters (not OPA) is at middle gain in dB. If not checked, shelving frequency is nominal frequency of the low/high-pass part.
                                                      Check with dbx DriveRack, Hypex AS/PSC/DSP/DLCP, miniDSP (Basic), Xilica XA/XP. Uncheck with Behringer DCX, FourAudio PPA.
                                                      Setting is saved in project file (vxp).

                                                      * User manual in German updated yesterday. It's compatible with rev. 2.0.3.9.
                                                      VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

                                                      Comment

                                                      • kimmosto
                                                        Moderator
                                                        • Dec 2006
                                                        • 584

                                                        #28
                                                        Rev. 2.0.3.11 (2018-07-15)
                                                        Selected component can be replaced by pressing Ctrl key while clicking menu button. Active block can be replaced with another active, and passive component (LCR) with another passive. Values of parameters with the same name and unit are copied to replacement component. Driver, ground, library block and wire cannot be replaced directly without delete->add.
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                                                        Comment

                                                        • kimmosto
                                                          Moderator
                                                          • Dec 2006
                                                          • 584

                                                          #29
                                                          Rev 2.0.3.12 (2018-07-21)

                                                          * Automatic part numbering added for passive (LCR) and active (U) components. Part number is shown in crossover schematic by checking View->Part #.
                                                          * Part # added to curve tooltips of resistors and inductors in Power dissipation window.
                                                          * Pmax added to curve tooltip of resistors in Power dissipation window.
                                                          * Part # of passive and active components saved to project file (.vxp) and library blocks (.vxl).
                                                          * Type and Nbr columns replaced with Part # column in Library block parameter window. Part # created if not found in existing/old library block file. Part # forced to show in schematic while creating new library block.
                                                          * OP amps. added to Parts list.

                                                          Active buffers will be associated with power amps later to restore impedance and output power responses for each "way" as they are in version 1.1.
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                                                          Comment

                                                          • JonMarsh
                                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                            • 15259

                                                            #30
                                                            Amazing "update". Actually, that is not the write word, because obviously this was a complete re-thinking from the ground up, and an according total re-write.

                                                            Adding the passive blocks that come from the 1.1 format to the library is a very convenient time saver for when we want to update an older design to the new format and program.

                                                            A huge amount of work has been involved here- the community owes you a lot!

                                                            ~Jon
                                                            the AudioWorx
                                                            Natalie P
                                                            M8ta
                                                            Modula Neo DCC
                                                            Modula MT XE
                                                            Modula Xtreme
                                                            Isiris
                                                            Wavecor Ardent

                                                            SMJ
                                                            Minerva Monitor
                                                            Calliope
                                                            Ardent D

                                                            In Development...
                                                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                            Obi-Wan
                                                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                            Modula PWB
                                                            Calliope CC Supreme
                                                            Natalie P Ultra
                                                            Natalie P Supreme
                                                            Janus BP1 Sub


                                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                            Comment

                                                            • kimmosto
                                                              Moderator
                                                              • Dec 2006
                                                              • 584

                                                              #31
                                                              Thanks Jon!
                                                              Fortunately I got a lot of help for circuit math from bwaslo. Initial re-writing took about 5-6 weeks, and quite much additions, improvements and fixes are done after that. But still, quite many people will stay in version 1.1 due to much faster UI and adequate features. That was expected because special circuit topologies are not mandatory.
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                                                              Comment

                                                              • kimmosto
                                                                Moderator
                                                                • Dec 2006
                                                                • 584

                                                                #32
                                                                Rev 2.0.4.0 (2018-07-26)

                                                                Main program:
                                                                * Maximum power (Pow parameter) of resistors shown in crossover schematic if View->Power is checked.
                                                                * Part numbering of active buffers changed from U8,U9,... to A1,A2,... to help association with power amplifiers in active multi-way.
                                                                * Load impedance (magnitude) of active buffers shown in Impedance chart.
                                                                * Added 'Load impedance of Buffer' export.
                                                                * 'Total impedance' renamed to 'Load impedance of Generator' in Impedance chart and Export.

                                                                Power dissipation window:
                                                                * 'Output volt-ampere/real power' curves renamed to 'Generator volt-ampere/real power'.
                                                                * Output volt-ampere of active buffers shown in chart.

                                                                Enclosure tool:
                                                                * 'Crossover of current driver' checkbox renamed to 'Crossover of driver'.
                                                                * Driver dropdown list added below 'Crossover of driver' checkbox. No need to select driver from schematic in the main program to apply filter transfer function for enclosure calculation.

                                                                SPL Trace:
                                                                * Added warning 'Low impedance must be >0 with logarithmic scale'.
                                                                VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

                                                                Comment

                                                                • JonMarsh
                                                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                                  • 15259

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by kimmosto
                                                                  Thanks Jon!
                                                                  Fortunately I got a lot of help for circuit math from bwaslo. Initial re-writing took about 5-6 weeks, and quite much additions, improvements and fixes are done after that. But still, quite many people will stay in version 1.1 due to much faster UI and adequate features. That was expected because special circuit topologies are not mandatory.
                                                                  Some of us DO have habits of unusual circuit topologies, such as the NatalieP speaker, so this opens up some vistas- of course, I've got to find some time to get busy with the manual, which is not as easy as it sounds at the moment!

                                                                  But thanks again. This is an impressive piece of work, and I'm sure will make my life more interesting and eventually productive.
                                                                  the AudioWorx
                                                                  Natalie P
                                                                  M8ta
                                                                  Modula Neo DCC
                                                                  Modula MT XE
                                                                  Modula Xtreme
                                                                  Isiris
                                                                  Wavecor Ardent

                                                                  SMJ
                                                                  Minerva Monitor
                                                                  Calliope
                                                                  Ardent D

                                                                  In Development...
                                                                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                  Obi-Wan
                                                                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                  Modula PWB
                                                                  Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                  Natalie P Ultra
                                                                  Natalie P Supreme
                                                                  Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • kimmosto
                                                                    Moderator
                                                                    • Dec 2006
                                                                    • 584

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                                    Some of us DO have habits of unusual circuit topologies...
                                                                    That is true, but sometimes free topology has some actual advantages (not just habits) compared to simple block ladder with limited amount of blocks. Passive ladder has been quite adequate for me but driver connections with groups of 1-4 drivers is limiting or would cause difference to actual connection with line arrays etc. Free network allows better mixing of passive and active, e.g. passive line level filtering and complex filters with OP amps. Input filter and room EQ common to all output channels is popular with dsp devices, and this is much easier to design with free network allowing branches from one to many.

                                                                    I don't have statistics how much different versions are used. Version 2 is downloaded 4-5 times more than version 1.1, but about 350 new users installs and evaluates also version 1.1 in a month.
                                                                    VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • der uli
                                                                      Junior Member
                                                                      • Aug 2018
                                                                      • 1

                                                                      #35
                                                                      non-textbook targets?

                                                                      Big thanks kimmosto for this outstanding software. I was in the asymptotic part of learning curve for version 1 when I found ver. 2. Hope I can get my few old projects converted soon.

                                                                      Originally posted by kimmosto
                                                                      ... It's not much harder but there is not much sense in my opinion to adjust some very special target curve with N=3...8 for individual driver and then run optimiser for a minute only to get response for a single driver which probably won't integrate to adjacent way in total axial and power responses. Special cases are faster to adjust directly with component/parameter values without messing up with customized partial targets and optimiser. Theoretical background for this is that textbook responses such as Linkwitz-Riley are already designed ...
                                                                      ...If optimizer should make also phase matching, it should have phase response target or some constraints for phase differences of adjacent drivers. Then we may generate new problems: optimiser could be very versatile and flexible, but optimising takes more time than manual adjustment due to complexity of parameterization. ...
                                                                      This almost answers my question before I posted it.
                                                                      I would like to optimize *single* speaker response to several *non-standard* acoustical output curves. These are little different in amplitude but differ much in phase. It's tricky to do this with high accuracy by hand.
                                                                      My dream is to load a FRD file with target response and let the optimizer do its job on some crossover topologies. Then compare the results of different curves and schematics.
                                                                      One example of such a target function can be found at http://sagecell.sagemath.org/?q=ervpjb (sorry, pre-beta version in german language)
                                                                      I can supply a complete description of the idea behind it after it has been published. This may take some months, please be patient. But it would be really cool if I could direct people to a software capable of working with my strange ideas...

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • kimmosto
                                                                        Moderator
                                                                        • Dec 2006
                                                                        • 584

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Preparation of response measurements for crossover simulation with VituixCAD updated for Convert IR to FR tool i.e. measurements are done with ARTA or Clio, and frequency responses are converted from pir/mls to txt/frd with VituixCAD. Refresh pdf to see the latest.
                                                                        VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • kimmosto
                                                                          Moderator
                                                                          • Dec 2006
                                                                          • 584

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Rev. 2.0.5.9 (2018-11-17)

                                                                          Convert IR to FR
                                                                          * Added 'Far 1' button to set default values for the 1st far field export (tweeter's).
                                                                          * Added 'Near' button to set default values for near field export.
                                                                          * See Preparation of response measurements for crossover simulation with VituixCAD for more information.
                                                                          VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • cochinada
                                                                            Senior Member
                                                                            • May 2014
                                                                            • 658

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Although I'm probably one of the earliest users of this outstanding program only now I discovered the incredible power of the optimizer and the fantastic usefulness of the SPL Trace which allowed me to create in a record time and with minimum effort no less than 13 drivers' curves, each with 3 of-axis angles!

                                                                            In the process I have one question and an observation:

                                                                            1) SPL Trace doesn't allow a fractional number for High impedance (Axis type Linear).
                                                                            2) When I run the Optimizer the top part of the window, where we have the High pass, Low pass and related parameters is always disabled. What am I missing?

                                                                            Thank you Kimmo for developing such a wonderful tool!
                                                                            Joaquim

                                                                            DIY 4 way speakers.
                                                                            DIY subwoofers.
                                                                            Zaph ZD3C.

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • kimmosto
                                                                              Moderator
                                                                              • Dec 2006
                                                                              • 584

                                                                              #39
                                                                              ^1) This is changed to rev. 2.0.10.1.
                                                                              2) First you need to select driver from combo box having "2 - Vifa M10MD" in the image below. Then you can select Axial response of Driver and continue to target slope and level setting.

                                                                              VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • cochinada
                                                                                Senior Member
                                                                                • May 2014
                                                                                • 658

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Thanks. I have one suggestion for improvement that will require some amount of work but I guess it is easy to implement and it is to be able to define limits to the components to avoid that the optimizer gives ridiculous values like 50mH and so on.
                                                                                Joaquim

                                                                                DIY 4 way speakers.
                                                                                DIY subwoofers.
                                                                                Zaph ZD3C.

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • kimmosto
                                                                                  Moderator
                                                                                  • Dec 2006
                                                                                  • 584

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  ^Actually all parameters have min and max constraints inside component instances, but those are hidden from user to save parameterization work and guide user to specify valid targets and lock parameters which should not change. It's not perfectly clear which one is more ridiculous: parameter value or target given by user
                                                                                  VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • draki
                                                                                    Member
                                                                                    • Oct 2012
                                                                                    • 37

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    subscribing....

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • DaveFred
                                                                                      Senior Member
                                                                                      • Sep 2018
                                                                                      • 172

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by draki
                                                                                      subscribing....
                                                                                      Me Too...

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • Scottg
                                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                                        • Nov 2006
                                                                                        • 335

                                                                                        #44

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • kimmosto
                                                                                          Moderator
                                                                                          • Dec 2006
                                                                                          • 584

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          draki and Dave are hoping that smug and frustrated Finnish Vituix Man speaker dictator would leave diyaudio for good and start posting here Let's see what happens...
                                                                                          VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

                                                                                          Comment

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