Modula Xtreme follow up

[JonMarsh]

Exactly!! :B :rofl:

It's just minor collateral damage in comparison!

[spadez]

Fair shout for the XE, but for the SO your buying all 8 drivers for a smidge over $680 delivered, then looking at $1000 more on the crossover. If I was that loaded I would have built the XE in the first place :W

[spadez]

Im going to start looking at the prices of components. Since I dont know much about this, ill start with the Inductors.

What type of inductors should I be aiming for:

- Air Core Inductor
- Copper Foil Inductor
- Solid Core Inductor
- Air Core Inductors
- Copper Foil Inductors
- Solid Core Inductors

EDIT: In regards to resistors, if I cant find a 3Ohm for example, is it assumed that I would simply use 2 x 1.5Ohm?

[---k---]

Start a new thread, and we'll help you...

[JonMarsh]

Starting a separate thread is a good idea, depending on availability (limited for me) others can chime in, and I can also make points about how I did things or what power rating to consider- for example, the input resistor R5 on the tweeter network is 4 - 10 Ohm resistors in parallel, similar to how I did the Modula MT XE, so that I could adjust the level by connecting or disconnecting resistors, and so that there would be little power compression from thermal effects (as resistors get hot, resistance goes up), plus with some of the common values used for paralleling, like 10 Ohm, 30 Ohms, I got 10+ volume pricing. R10 in the Tweeter section is 2x 30 Ohm in parallel. R9 is 2x 10 Ohm in parallel. R6 is 2x 12.5 Ohm in parallel.

OTOH, in this build, R1 is a 3.9 Ohm Mundorf high power non-inductive, but could be 4x 16 Ohm conventional resistors (Dayton, Mills) in parallel. R4 is just a single 30 Ohm, because there's little power there in shunt with the high sensitivity (93 dB/watt) midrange. R8 I wouldn't make 3 ohms with resistors in series, but with two in parallel (6 ohms). Always go for paralleling, as this lowers inductance.

[brucemck2]

In one of the notes on the right side there's a reference to C8, but I don't see a C8 in the schematic ... is that an old, no longer relevant, reference?

[ThomasW]

It's a moot point since that's an obsolete schematic, but C8 is located above R7. Physically it's immediately to the left of the word 'provide' in the notes box.

[JonMarsh]

Sunday Crossover Portn

The newer build of the tweeter crossover. One down a few weeks ago, one to go someday, maybe in July.

[---k---]

Question for you Jon, it looks like you unwound your red inductor a little to get the wire to go all the way to the other side of the crossover to the resistors. I've never unwound an inductor, how much change in the value did that little stretch make? Not much I'm guessing. I'm just wondering about doing this on my next project and if you can provide any rules of thumb.

[JonMarsh]

Actually, the inductor was unwound both because it was larger than needed and to make the "reach" easy. It was a 0.2 mH that needed to be a 0.15 mH, otherwise known as 150 uH.

Usually I find air core inductors are very close to the nominal value compared with caps- it's easy to nail them within 1-2%. Iron core inductors are another matter... I never install one without measuring.

Taking one or two turns off will slightly lower the inductance (can give you the equation if you're curious, but you have to know the starting turns and physical dimensions), but would easily keep it within 3-4% of nominal value, which would rarely be an issue, as it would take a 50% cut to halve the corner frequency.

I have an HP LCR meter and Audiomatica CLIO on an older Athlon PC, which has full LCR four terminal functionality.

If you have an inductance meter and you think you want longer leads, just buy the next up value and unwind to the needed value, you'll have plenty of wire left over!!

[---k---]

Thanks.

[JonMarsh]

Time to build that second tweeter crossover this weekend!!

And listen to the latest pop while doing it...





The new Stanley Clarke, with Hiromi again, is in transit,



but won't be here for the weekend... darn! Have hopes for this one...

but geez, a bass with a vibrato bar??!?!

[JonMarsh]

Give me a day off and all the oxygen leaves my brain

So of course, when Jantzen finally got back to me about the waveguides, I ordered some today. They'll come from their distribution warehouse in Poland.

I just love Eastern Europe- so much cool stuff comes from there- AudioPraise boards, Jantzen waveguides, and my best friend at work, Jens. :W





Just being solid, and not having to do any fiberglass and resin backfills makes the price worthwhile.

I hope I'll be able to use my Millenium Excels with these; otherwise the SS D2608 with a short beveled throat adapter plate, or, heavens forbid, a TW034XO!! :W There's some weird stuff going on in the CSD plots of the 034 in the 2 kHz range, I suspect internal reflections.

Main reason for these is if I do a new piano black build of the Modula Xtreme cabinets. Giving that a lot of thought at the moment, three woofers modules per side, one at the bottom just to house the crossover. Do it from scratch rather than rebuilding this set.

I'm even thinking about a weird four driver TMMWW with this and the Vifa NE180W; think of the two M drivers connected MTM like with the tweeter in the center, then the 0.5 Woofers flanking top and bottom; net total impedance of four ohms. Could even use a different four home driver for the 0.5 woofers. Will have to give that some thought.

[Paul W]

You mean like a 2.5 WMTMW (in a vertical line) or something else?

[JonMarsh]

You mean like a 2.5 WMTMW (in a vertical line) or something else?

Yeah, you got it, a WMTMW in a line, obviously might have to be on a stand if not a tower speaker. Just curious to see what a mess 'o those NE180W might do, they're so clean in the midrange and above.

Just what I need, another speaker.

Seriously, will be finishing other things up first, but that's why I ordered three pairs of the waveguides, so I'd have some to play with. I've got a feeling about this... hope it's right!

[Paul W]

I once did vertical 2.5 towers like that with the dished SS 9900's and 8531's. Turned out nicely. I occasionally listened near-field where they were particularly intriguing...they seemed to remove the room. Just you and the music!

[JonMarsh]

I once did vertical 2.5 towers like that with the dished SS 9900's and 8531's. Turned out nicely. I occasionally listened near-field where they were particularly intriguing...they seemed to remove the room. Just you and the music!

Damn, that's uncanny, because near field monitors for my DAW setup was what I had in mind....

[Paul W]

Seems worth a shot! 8)

[JonMarsh]

For you Stanley Clarke fans, and those like Face just discovering him

Time to build that second tweeter crossover this weekend!!

And listen to the latest pop while doing it...





The new Stanley Clarke, with Hiromi again, is in transit,



but won't be here for the weekend... darn! Have hopes for this one...

but geez, a bass with a vibrato bar??!?!

Saturday delivery by Fed Ex. Interesting album- takes a different compositional direction than some of his other efforts-

The product description at Amazon is descriptive and revealing of the differences...

Renowned bassist Stanley Clarke's new recording, The Stanley Clarke Band, is unlike his previous acoustic bass releases, Clarke feels that this album's music is fresh and different from just about anything he's done before. Produced by Clarke and Lenny White, the range of collaborative material on The Stanley Clarke Band has allowed him to venture to new levels of experimentation, utilizing his arsenal of bass instruments. Clarke compares this new release to the first three albums of his solo career: Journey to Love, Stanley Clarke, and School Days, with long extended electric pieces that take the listener on a kind of journey.
"Technically, it's a Stanley Clarke record, but it's very much a band-oriented record at the same time," says Clarke. "I may be the leader, but everyone played an important role in what emerged. If a project like this can be looked at like a ship, I'd be the one steering the ship and keeping everybody on course. But all hands were definitely on deck, and everyone played an important role in getting us to our destination."

Also a new foray for Clarke, the album includes original compositions from members of the band. He is joined by Stanley Clarke Band keyboardist Ruslan Sirota and drummer Ronald Bruner, Jr. - who have been performing and recording with him for the better part of five years. Innovative young musicians, they have virtually grown up in Clarke's band and bring a freshness he admires. Following 2009's highly-acclaimed Jazz In the Garden, this is featured artist Hiromi Uehara's second Clarke recording collaboration. Clarke's rugged and complex bass work serves as the ideal foil for her trademark fiery and expressive piano chops, as reflected through critics' praising it as "a superb trio effort" (Bass Player) and "one of the best jazz CDs of the year" (San Jose Mercury News).

"There are people on The Stanley Clarke Band other than myself who have something to say," explains Clarke. "Everyone on this project brought their own music and their own ideas. The styles of the individual tunes may be different, but the continuous thread that runs through the whole record is the fact that we're all operating as a unit on each track."

Among the additional players in the album's supporting cast are vocalist Cheryl Bentyne (a longtime member of The Manhattan Transfer); guitarists Charles Altura, Rob Bacon, and Armand Sabal-Lecco; saxophonist Bob Sheppard; bass synthesizer Lorenzo "Larry" Dunn (of Earth, Wind & Fire fame); keyboardist Felton Pilate; horn players Andrew Lippman and John Papenbrook; and drum programmers Chris Clarke and Jon Hakakian.

Perhaps the most appealing aspect of The Stanley Clarke Band is the exceptionally organic nature of its genesis - the sense of grassroots creativity that existed outside of any efforts to tailor the music to any specific segment of the market. Clarke concludes, "This is the last electric album I'm going to do for awhile. The legacy of this release is that I'm providing lots of material and homework for a new generation of bassists to catch up with. I've worked hard to give the bass a distinctive voice, and I feel so excited about where it's going."

It sounds more like music written by and played by a band, not just a featured front musician.

[Beau]

Hi Jon,

Did the original waveguide not work as intended?

[JonMarsh]

The original MCM H65 waveguide works pretty well, but it's not a theoretically ideal profile- so I'm always looking into possible sources for something a bit better. Whether they'll prove to be or not remains to be seen- could be an expensive flop, possibly, but this is the one used in the Troels Graveson/Jantzen TQWT high efficiency system.



Heck, I may even try out the TW034XO, just to see how it works and if the issues I've seen elsewhere in the impedance curve and CSD plots are there.

Considering I built a lot of systems in the 70's and 80's with Audax drivers, it would be very funny if I ended up going back to this one.

Compared with the JA8008 system, instead of a high efficiency paper cone 8" woofer, the Accuton C173N-T6-90 provides better controlled cone behavior and an even lower distortion motor, with similar net sensitivity around 93 dB.

[Beau]

I see, are they super expensive? They look to be a lot easier to work with.

[JonMarsh]

They are expensive in comparison to the MCM H65 (which is about $12)- buying six, they were $47.50 each. They're milled out of solid black POM plastic, 180 mm diameter rods. Obviously, resonance is no issue. Compared with a DDS waveguide for a compression driver, they're quite inexpensive. Compared with an SS tweeter, ditto. Shipping's not bad when you're buying six, only a little more than for two.

I probably will buy an Audax TW034XO just to see how well that combo measures for distortion and dispersion, as well as try adapting it to some others I have in mind. Troels didn't have much luck with other parts he tried, but he was looking for 93 dB efficiency, and trying to get the combo to be as flat as possible before the crossover. I'm more concerned with loading and distortion and dispersion- he didn't measure or document any of those.

I think it may be adaptable to the Millenium Excel, with the expected effect on the net dispersion curve, I'm going to try that first. I think it is adaptable to smaller domes using a thin adapter plate with an inside bevel, such as my favored SS D2608. Mostly I'm hoping for even more uniform dispersion with regards to frequency, though with the crossover point I'm using, I've been getting pretty good results with the H65.

I won't miss spending the time it takes to do fiberglass layup and routing and so forth to get the H65 to work optimally- that alone is worth the $47.50!



I'd say the H65 has been a triumph of determination over inherent suitability. Problem being that there hasn't been many alternatives, hence all the discussions on board about finding guys to CNC machine a front baffle, for example, at this forum.

In the end, it's an experiment, of course- I'll let you guys know how it turns out.

[JonMarsh]

2009 remasters... what a trip down memory lane.



Good old fashioned fun...

As dynamic and clean as I've ever heard it- thank heavens for the 2009 remasters.


This seems to be making a difference, too. For now, just stereo playback, but could also be the heart of a future multi-way active speaker.

Yeah, the print really is that small... LOTs of controls on the front panel. BTW, the "Cans" output has it's own DAC set, all level controls are rotary encoders. Rotating any control displays the dB setting in the appropriate bar graph area numerically, until a few seconds after you stop and display returns to bar level with VU and peak detect displayed simultaneously.

Master configuration for operation can be downloaded from the Mac, as well as alternative operating configurations that can be selected at the push of a front panel button. Main audio interface is Firewire, but includes 8 AES/EBU I/O channels.

You could do a three way system with dual subs all active, including a full range monitor output on the headphone DAC channels. Clock is internal, or on WC or 256FS inputs or AES input. Power is an external brick, it will run on anything from 12V to 24 volt that can provide 24 watts power.

I'm jazzed, in case you couldn't tell. This thing sounds great with all kinds of recordings, old, new, and everything in between. The Pro Audio dark side is definitely calling...








No audiophile jewelry here. :alol:

[chasw98]

This seems to be making a difference, too. For now, just stereo playback, but could also be the heart of a future multi-way active speaker.

Yeah, the print really is that small... LOTs of controls on the front panel. BTW, the "Cans" output has it's own DAC set, all level controls are rotary encoders. Rotating any control displays the dB setting in the appropriate bar graph area numerically, until a few seconds after you stop and display returns to bar level with VU and peak detect displayed simultaneously.

Master configuration for operation can be downloaded from the Mac, as well as alternative operating configurations that can be selected at the push of a front panel button. Main audio interface is Firewire, but includes 8 AES/EBU I/O channels.

You could do a three way system with dual subs all active, including a full range monitor output on the headphone DAC channels. Clock is internal, or on WC or 256FS inputs or AES input. Power is an external brick, it will run on anything from 12V to 24 volt that can provide 24 watts power.

I'm jazzed, in case you couldn't tell. This thing sounds great with all kinds of recordings, old, new, and everything in between. The Pro Audio dark side is definitely calling...

You are evil! Are you sure you are not under the influence of an 'EVIL TWIN'? You know I like active and you know I have a penchant for meters so you throw this unit at me! Hmmm, maybe sell a child, wife, something.......... And I am sure that rack mount adapters are available.

[JonMarsh]

Tee hee...

Rack adapters come with it...

Image not available

And don't forget the MIO Console V5.3 software interface...

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Completely configurable, from basic I/O to a full blown mixing setup, with full routing options, and a separate Monitor controller for ease of use.

Image not available .

A library of template configurations is included with the MIO Console application...

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The mic preamps from the ULN-8 can be added back in, in groups of four, at a later date, as can the full DSP+ license. Three boxes can be chained together on one computer, and recording systems comprising up to 108 channels can be managed from a single Mac Book Pro laptop. Tutorial movies are included with the install CD and can be accessed or downloaded from the Metric Halo web site, as well as a full online browser based help system that is installed locally as well on the system computer.

MIO Console Help System

[JonMarsh]

About resistors...

Ryan and some others have asked me about why I use so many paralleled resistors in most of my designs, including the old M8a back in 2003, and the current Modula series.

MOST of the time you may not need that "overbuild". But if you're an ex rock and roll guy like me, and you know you may want to crank things occasionally, you have to consider the possibilities.

As Dave discovered with his mini-statements, you can cook the crossover resistors before you cook the speakers or your ears (hats off to Curt for the basic robustness of the design).



If you never turn things up past "five", then likely no worries. But with shunt networks and even high power zobels, power dissipation is as much a factor for the networks as it is the drivers.

Just keep that in mind. :W

[savage25xtreme]

damn, let the magic smoke out of that one :E

[Paul W]

+1 on not taking chances with resistors...can help lower inductance as well :T

[---k---]

I saw that over at PE. That's awesome! I've buried a few resistors in hot-glue.... fingers crossed.


Jon, it makes sense to me that the resistors in series with driver will take a lot. But you also said the zobels? I was under the impression (probably mistakenly) that anything that spanned between the positive and negative wasn't as critical. Can you help educate me here. Thanks.

[JonMarsh]

It all depends on the span and nature of the zobel network. A zobel for tweeter Fs resonance to take the bump off the roll of curve is no big deal- little power will ever be sent there. A zobel for controlling woofer impedance at a the upper port impedance peak in order to prevent interaction with an LF crossover is a whole different critter! LspCAD can give some guidance on current in components, as I recall- you'll note that in the Ardents, the LF zobel uses a 50 watt resistor. That's not just because I like gold anodized aluminum....

[ColoradoTom]

You know, should you decide to build something different but similar, one option, given how many frequent flyer miles I have, would be to come out to Denver one weekend to see you and the other Tom, and do measurements and a design based on the same crossover techniques I've done with these last two projects. Then you could build the crossovers, and I could come out again and verify/tweak the setup. Something to think about- both my MacBook pro and Mac Mini are pretty portable- those are my main Fuzzmeasure systems- maybe it would give ThomasW some incentive to move forward on his Raal/Accuton/?? system.

Hey Jon......

Wanted to get back to you on this offer. Good news is that we've been "slammed" at work and combine that with various volunteer work projects and keeping my two teenage daughters in line..... well, the summer is flying by and the bad news is it doesn't look like I'll be starting any DIY speaker projects until August (at the earliest).

What I may end up doing is complete a project I've been thinking about using the 8 Aura NS12's I have and make a "swarm" of 4 subs with two Auras each for my main listening room. After that I can look at other projects like the modified Modula Xtreme or Ardent designs later in the year.

Also, I just finished reading Toole's "Sound Reproduction - Loudspeakers and Rooms" while I've been recovering from my back injury - what a wealth of information is in his book!!

Tom

[TacoD]

Also, I just finished reading Toole's "Sound Reproduction - Loudspeakers and Rooms" while I've been recovering from my back injury - what a wealth of information is in his book!!

Tom

That is an great book, unfortunately I only read some sections, but when I have the time ....

[chrismercurio]

Somewhere I have a pic of some B&W's that caught fire from the inside...

The adhesive on the former caught fire and since the drivers were made out of poly, the leftovers looked a lot like black taffy dripping down the front of the enclosure.

[JonMarsh]

Hey Jon......

Wanted to get back to you on this offer. Good news is that we've been "slammed" at work and combine that with various volunteer work projects and keeping my two teenage daughters in line..... well, the summer is flying by and the bad news is it doesn't look like I'll be starting any DIY speaker projects until August (at the earliest).

What I may end up doing is complete a project I've been thinking about using the 8 Aura NS12's I have and make a "swarm" of 4 subs with two Auras each for my main listening room. After that I can look at other projects like the modified Modula Xtreme or Ardent designs later in the year.

Also, I just finished reading Toole's "Sound Reproduction - Loudspeakers and Rooms" while I've been recovering from my back injury - what a wealth of information is in his book!!

Tom

Good to hear from you Tom! Was thinking about you the other day after listening a bit on the Xtreme's with the new DAC.

Not surprised to hear how your summer is going- glad things are as they are for work, it's been similar, what with doing a special project for a department/division I don't belong to. Still making some progress, though very little in June- more last weekend than all the previous month!

Just stay in touch when you think you've got some time. I'm planning on coming out for RMAF again, expect to have a lot more complete system setup- actually debating whether to bring the Xtreme's or the Ardents. I'm planning on a new cabinet build for the Xtreme's, going piano black, but don't want to tear these down until the last minute.

I have some new woofers on the way for an experiment with the Ardent's, which might turn out interesting. I want to finish the veneering and do some basic finishing, too. I have accrued vacation, but with work as it is, hard to get time off. Better than the alternative, I guess.

I've been pondering doing something like that with my Aura 12's or 10s', too, haven't made up my mind which way to go. As it's lower priority than the full range speakers, I continue to work on them instead!

[JonMarsh]

Oh mama!

Anyone else here (besides Tom) familiar with Ambrosia, and their first album engineered and produced by Alan Parsons?

Parsons put them in training (running) literally to develop enough breath and endurance for the vocal parts.



Many of the cuts are also available on their Anthology album.

the remastered CD can sound "Nice, nice, Very Nice" - especially that first cut! "Time Waits for No One" really reflects the Alan Parsons influence, with a drone like bass intro and some very energetic percussion and instrumental work.

Which I used to use as a demo piece, for good reason, but it was a real torture tracker test- in digital, it works even better. Who ever did the re-mix and remaster did a good job.

Their first album was definitely in an art rock kind of style; later ones were too much of a commercial sound, even sounding like the Doobie brothers, for my taste.

[ColoradoTom]

Not surprised to hear how your summer is going- glad things are as they are for work, it's been similar, what with doing a special project for a department/division I don't belong to.

Yup, right now it's been feast or famine for us.... this economy is driving me crazy but right now we have 7 active searches going and two of them are C-Level searches that should close right before my birthday

Just stay in touch when you think you've got some time. I'm planning on coming out for RMAF again, expect to have a lot more complete system setup- actually debating whether to bring the Xtreme's or the Ardents. I'm planning on a new cabinet build for the Xtreme's, going piano black, but don't want to tear these down until the last minute.

I'm positive I'll be around for RMAF so I sould be able to visit with you and ThomasW again....

I've been pondering doing something like that with my Aura 12's or 10s', too, haven't made up my mind which way to go. As it's lower priority than the full range speakers, I continue to work on them instead!

Well after reading Toole and looking at the Geddes site, the idea of multiple subs sounds interesting... plus I've got everything I need including a Pass crossover and a recently re-capped Parasound HCA-1206 multi-channel amp.
Oh, and just to make ThomasW happy, I'm giving serious consideration to asking for an Exodus Audio Maelstrom-21 for my birthday to use as IB designed into an oversized closet next to the audio room! Here's one mounted in the coolest DIY sub enclosure I've ever seen :E

http://72.9.159.100/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1238601&page=16

Tom

[dsrviola]

Tom,

Thanks for that sub link. ;x(

[chrismercurio]

Anyone else here (besides Tom) familiar with Ambrosia, and their first album engineered and produced by Alan Parsons?

Great record. Prog that anyone can handle. And the Vonnegut reference in the track you mentioned is a nice touch.

They still play here locally sometimes Jon so maybe you can make it out?

Chris

[JonMarsh]

Great record. Prog that anyone can handle. And the Vonnegut reference in the track you mentioned is a nice touch.

They still play here locally sometimes Jon so maybe you can make it out?

Chris

Really? I had no idea! I'd better find their web site and check out their news updates- been doing that for a few different acts from the 70's and 80's lately.

Kind of dates me, doesn't it?

[chrismercurio]

They played at the Avalon in Santa Clara a year or two ago.

[JonP]

Ambrosia! That was a good album... heard a few tracks from that on a Prog netradio station a while ago, it's going on the CD buy list.

Looked them up, they have a site, and do tour occasionally... IIRC most of the original band members are still living in LA.

And yes, the incredible flaming crossover... saw that, did wonder about power in parts. Was actually wondering about that a few days before the posting, and was modeling around in SIMetrix... Modeled up the Mini-Statement's midrange and got some disturbing figures for wattage. Actually, embarrassing figures, where there's more power dissipation in that 4 ohm resistor than there should be going into the crossover. :wtf: Reactive power plus actual? Input power and power in component not measured the same way? Bonehead pilot error by SIMetrix newbie? Haven't posted my schematic and graphs yet till I figure what's going on... but I'll bet with 128W (32V) going into the midrange, you wouldn't quite get 85W and 135W in the 1 and 4 ohm resistors... 8O It does look likely that the divider burns as much as 2/3ds of the total power in the midrange. A good argument for checking and scaling component's power ratings!

Anyway, back to the thread that makes me wish I heard about the pallets of free M&K sub cabinets 10 miles from my work, BEFORE they were all gone!

[JonMarsh]

With the normal duty cycle of music and peak to average ratios, the resistors and speakers aren't nearly as stressed as we might fear, even with "loud" playback, but it's still something to consider. If you use "continuous" sine tones, then you're going to see numbers like you're talking about in simulation. You'd probably also see smoked voice coils as well as resistors in real life.

The "Forward to the Past" retro aspect of "What If's" for the Modula Xtremes is coming together, the TW034X0's arrived yesterday, looking VERY 70's and very familiar, as Audax tweeters and mids were something of a mainstay in the late 70's for me.




I don't really expect to wind up actually using them (you never know, though), but they'll be a baseline for comparison for the Jantzen waveguides coming in from Poland.

After the waveguides arrive, the order of the day will be to assemble one on a test baffle, and do some SPL and distortion sweeps.

[JonMarsh]

Spinning tonight: La Vienta "Night Dance"

Another "classic" Telarc Jazz CD, from 1994, latin based acoustic guitar and other instruments. Some flavorful music, and a great recording to boot.

[sdl2112]

Up too late......

I'll throw this out there....

Rite of Strings

Got to like this combo......

Those unfamiliar....quite the delight....