Modula Xtreme follow up

[JonMarsh]

Speaker Porn... great way to start a Saturday morning after getting back from an international business trip!

Sorry to hear about the disk issue- you have my sympathy and empathy for that situation, knock on wood, I've been pretty solid the last 2-3 years.

[JonMarsh]

Cool...... just thinking about summer projects. I'm being forced to take some time off - have a disk problem (L5/S1 disk is failing and nearly bone-on-bone) hopefully with the physical therapy I'm getting I'll be back on top of things soon. Probably did it carying those darn M8ta's around 8O . I'm thinking these two unit speakers might be easier on the back!!

You could probably do these several ways- split up into a bass and head unit, like the Pass speaker, or even split up into three cabinets, depending on how hell for stout you want to make them and how much weight you're willing to deal with per cabinet.



The way I built them, it all actually winds up as one cabinet quite rigidly locked together, though it may not look like that- there's only one binding post set, on the lower cabinet, all other cabling is internal. But there's no reason it could be done differently from that, just takes more connectors!

In my set, the LF crossover is in the lower woofer cabinet, and the midrange and tweeter crossovers are in the upper cabinet, the midrange on the inner floor of the cabinet, the tweeter on the ceiling. Of course, the crossovers could all be placed external- dealers choice. I made a conscious decision that I wanted something neat and tidy with just one input connector and no external boxes- don't regret that so far. :W

[technodanvan]

Dammit Jon, I just bought all the CD's you listed on this page. I avoid the "What're you listening to" threads for a reason - you're killing me!

[ColoradoTom]

Speaker Porn... great way to start a Saturday morning after getting back from an international business trip!

Sorry to hear about the disk issue- you have my sympathy and empathy for that situation, knock on wood, I've been pretty solid the last 2-3 years.

Thanks for the responses and the mild detour from the original design criteria. I've been mulling some ideas over in my head and as much as I liked the design and appearence of the Ardents the thought of a possibly better sounding system with the added benefit of two semi-reasonable components is starting to sound pretty good! Perhaps with a little creativity I can moprh the two together 8O

Also, thanks for the thoughts... if I remember you have struggled with back problems in the past. I've been in physical therapy and with the exercise program and some prescription anti-inflamatory drugs the pain has returned to a managable issue. Doctor said yesterday that I should be back to lifting (woodworking) within two to three weeks

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, I had an L5/L6 microdiscectomy back in 2003 due to a herniated disk. Travelled to a conference 4 days after the surgery. The disk was quite herniated, occupying about 70% of the spinal cord space- was potentially quite dangerous.

Particularly after modifying my exercise program and some things in my diet two years ago, I've had essentially zero issues with my back since- doing things comfortably I couldn't do ten years ago. But I still watch my back mechanics, of course. Hope your Dr's activity prognosis for you proves accurate!

You know, should you decide to build something different but similar, one option, given how many frequent flyer miles I have, would be to come out to Denver one weekend to see you and the other Tom, and do measurements and a design based on the same crossover techniques I've done with these last two projects. Then you could build the crossovers, and I could come out again and verify/tweak the setup. Something to think about- both my MacBook pro and Mac Mini are pretty portable- those are my main Fuzzmeasure systems- maybe it would give ThomasW some incentive to move forward on his Raal/Accuton/?? system.

[JonMarsh]

Excuse me for being incredibly ignorant, but this is the impression I had:

Newer music is higher in sound quality than older music. If your going to test a speaker system for sound quality, surely you want to be feeding the highest quality music you have into it to see what you can pick up, rather than music that was recorded over 30 years ago?

This isnt a dig at anyone music tastes, it just seems like audiophiles test with older music, and may be missing out in modern advances in recorded sound quality.

Others have cited good references for the sonic issues with many newer recordings. The technology capability exists to make excellent recordings these days, but often that is not the production goal today. So, you have releases by band's like Santanna's Supernatural that essentially have zero macro dynamics or microdynamics- very disappointing in comparison to the DSD version of "Abraxas". They're producing with the same dynamics as commercials- a huge contrast to live recordings from the 70's like Sheffields Harry James King James version, which is one of the better attempts on CD to recapture the dynamics of a live performance.

Some of the best mastered commercial releases available are the SACD releases starting in the mid/late 1990's, and going to present day.

It's arguable that if your goal is a recording to represent as much as possible an original acoustic venue, then simple techniques with the right high end equipment is preferable.

Now, some of the disks I've been mentioning are notable, IMO, because I'd wager that many have not heard how good some of these albums are capable of sounding, if you have the most recent remastered versions, and if you have a suitable playback system, starting with the source components.

This whole audio thing is pretty weird- one of the things I "established" for myself in the January February timeframe is that you can hear differences in source DAC quality even with fairly inexpensive computer speakers- like my old Microsoft USB three piece system, or a more recent Logitech three piece system. And when I say differences, I mean between say, a good $400 Firewire budget Pro DAC and a reference quality AES/EBU equipped DAC costing 10X as much. On a $300 speaker + amp setup. This doesn't' mean I recommend pairing $4K DACs and $400 speakers, just saying everything counts. That budget Firewire DAC sounds pretty nice on the Modula Xtremes (listening to it right now, in fact), but in this case, my point, I guess, is that decently made older recordings can be well worth re-discovering on an improved playback system.

Now, one of the ironies is that some of my best, most natural sounding recordings are 30-50 years old- in some cases, with rather heroic efforts expended to get the most out of the original master tape (on custom rebuilt tube AMPEX tape machines) transferred to DSD. Even under ideal storage conditions, a lot of those tapes wouldn't have lasted too much longer than the late 90's when those transfers were made. Then there are more modern direct to DSD recordings, like the Water Lily Acoustics Nature's Realm, which shows how well this technique with more modern technologies can perform- very natural clear sound. No opamps or big mixers in the original recording path, and it shows with what can be retrieved from the original master tape- best examples are the three channel RCA Living Stereo recordings, which have many superb performances from the late 50's and early 60's. These performances could not be transferred to vinyl in their original dynamic range, but DSD/SACD is another matter. Even converted to LPCM at 24/176.4, the reproduction is about as close as most of us will ever get to master tapes when played through a first class DAC.

Even DG these days is getting back into making great classical recordings without mult-micing and over processing the signal- when they do, the results can be very pleasing, such as DG's 2007 Yundi Li Prokofiev and Ravel release, under the direction of Seiji Ozawa.

Well, enough blathering for today...

Let's spin some more tunes....

[ColoradoTom]

Yeah, I had an L5/L6 microdiscectomy back in 2003 due to a herniated disk. Travelled to a conference 4 days after the surgery. The disk was quite herniated, occupying about 70% of the spinal cord space- was potentially quite dangerous.

Particularly after modifying my exercise program and some things in my diet two years ago, I've had essentially zero issues with my back since- doing things comfortably I couldn't do ten years ago. But I still watch my back mechanics, of course. Hope your Dr's activity prognosis for you proves accurate!

You know, should you decide to build something different but similar, one option, given how many frequent flyer miles I have, would be to come out to Denver one weekend to see you and the other Tom, and do measurements and a design based on the same crossover techniques I've done with these last two projects. Then you could build the crossovers, and I could come out again and verify/tweak the setup. Something to think about- both my MacBook pro and Mac Mini are pretty portable- those are my main Fuzzmeasure systems- maybe it would give ThomasW some incentive to move forward on his Raal/Accuton/?? system.

Yuck.... I'm glad I caught mine early! 8O I've had a little voice going off in my head for the last couple of years telling me I should be doing back execrices - I guess that voice was screeming last weekend!

Thanks for the offer to come out.... that would be great! ;x( Let me see how things go over the next couple of weeks and I will PM you.

ColoradoTom

[JonMarsh]

Sounds great, Tom- would be fun seeing you again. Too bad the Modula Xtreme's are a little Xtreme for carryon...


And now, back to our currently scheduled programming....




"Into the Fire" ...power folk rock? Just turn it up and up.... :B

Comfort folk/pop rock for aging boomers on this afternoon's disk- not always high fidelity, but highly satisfying... :rofl:

[Jed]

Love Sarah M. She's great in concert.

[JonMarsh]

More spinning...

Totally agree with you Jed.

And now for something completely different....





This is NOT an audiophile disk...

It might be a good test disk, though- it's fun 80s rock (original release 1985), has some decent dynamic, is recorded rather forward with some heavy cymbal work.

What that adds up to, is that with anything grungy in the system, it quickly gets irritating and brittle -

Run it through the Berkely Alpha and the Modula Xtremes, I have to be careful that I don't crank it up to lease breaking levels....

The keyboardist and guitarist that led this band wrote hits for some other acts like Cyndi Lauper and Joan Oborne.

There's a 2008 re-issue of this, which I don't have- may have to pick it up in case the mastering is any different/better.

If you think you have a good whistle clean system, then try "All you Zombies" cranked up, the 3rd cut on this disk. Some heavy drum and cymbal transients that will test your setup, and it's all in good fun musically if you like that kind of rock. You can sample listen on Amazon of course, but their stream sounds like scheisse. It's a bit too demanding material for low bit rate MP3 encoding.

[JonMarsh]

Happy Memorial Day Weekend!

Took a little break from work work and Tom's player, tested a new version of the tweeter crossover since the parts came in, will probably go with this one, as it provides more attenuation below 2 kHz, and has OK phase tracking in the operating region, plus a bit flatter overall top end response.

slow work takes time...

slow relentless work takes even more time.

Details later, back to work work for the Sunday afternoon.

[spadez]

Glad to see your able to find a few hours to work on this!

[JonMarsh]

Current thoughts and perspective

The tweeter mod seems to be doing exactly what i hoped for- smoother response, more at ease when you push the system.

Now, the next "problem area" is probably the size of the midrange and woofer crossovers. Nearfield measurement doesn't match the original test box measurements, and it all makes sense when you realize the crossovers are taking 15 to 20% of the bos volume.

Nothings glued down, just 3M super lock, so the obvious solution is to move the crossover boards for the mid and woofer. But just exactly how? One thing that occurred to me was to make the next test article for the Modula Xtreme SO using three of the woofer modules, and using the bottom one for the crossovers. That would work, but that does grow the system size by over 25%, getting close to that of an Isis. With the new crossover, the vertical window will probably be OK, as I'm seeing pretty good behavior to +/- 25 degrees.

It also occurred to me this morning that I could add a set of base modules to this system, convert it to three high- everything can be taken apart in it's current form, will just need longer cables internally. Quite doable.

All in favor of a three cube high Modula Xtreme, raise your hand.

After all, it would be more extreme, and isn't that part od the point?

Seriously, if you used these with a sub crosses at fifty, no worries as currently configured. But I'm getting short changed just a bit on the bottom end as tested with an unencumbered bass module originally.

Well, must get back to work work now that I've shared and got that off my chest.

Also have an idea for another small speaker design using the NE180E. An "EZ" build, will probably be called the Modula MT XE EZ. Talk about alphabet soup!

[---k---]

Now, the next "problem area" is probably the size of the midrange and woofer crossovers. Nearfield measurement doesn't match the original test box measurements, and it all makes sense when you realize the crossovers are taking 15 to 20% of the bos volume.

Just replace your fancy caps with NPE caps and you'll be fine. :P

[JonMarsh]

Just replace your fancy caps with NPE caps and you'll be fine. :P

Always the practical approach, Ryan! I hear 4.7 uF NPE's are pretty snail compared with MR Clarity or Jantzen Superior Z caps (those are big- 800V, just wait till you see the pics). Of course, those are just tweeter caps....

[---k---]

Oh the insanity!

[JonMarsh]

Insanity indeed!



The 10 uF version of this used in the shunt EQ network is almost the size of a Dayton 100 uF Film cap!! Yes, they're potted in their own aluminum tube...

So the dilemma is, small cheap caps and good bass for a little while, until the NPE's die because of power dissipation (look at the dissipation factor in those, putting them in the Flux cap position is probably a no-no), or big caps and good upper bass through highs?

Or another box? I've got the speakers stacked on an additional cube now, so I can assess the frequency response and imaging with the system elevated to that height.

[---k---]

Yes, they're potted in their own aluminum tube...

Got to watch putting those near the inductors then, no?
I believe this is what Troel's has testing of.

[Face]

Another example of an encapsulated cap.

Image not available

[JonMarsh]

Curiouser and curiouser....

OK, while I was talking to ThomasW earlier this AM, I stacked up my Modula Xtremes on a new pair of PE boxes, just to see how the room interface for LF would be with the revised woofer positioning, and the imaging and overall balance.

My brief listening impression was that the midbass was a bit smoother, and that we'd picked up a third to half octave in the bottom end. Now, as they were previously nearly boundary loaded on one woofer, I did not expect there would be an improvement in LF response picking the whole thing up off the floor. Seemed like a classic case of placebo effect- you hear what you wish you would hear.

The microphone doesn't lie, though, at least not if you treat it right, so that was next.



This is a 2 meter measurement, gated at about 160 msec, in room. Damn, if it doesn't look like the midbass is smoother and we picked up a third octave in the bottom end- with no other modifications.

Am I lucky or what? Like I said, Jed must enjoy me watching me walk around stumbling in the dark, barking my shins now and then and also coming on a little gold at other times.

Well, it seems to me we've at least got a valid argument for using a pair of the 1 cu ft boxes as speaker stands... but I think doing a full addon with the crossovers relocated will be in the cards now. Sheesh, if I'd come up with this response curve just by doing the full mod, I'd be happy, but now I suspect there may still be a little more performance to wring out of these with making more of the woofer modules available to the woofers.

Size is getting a little out of control; they're about 59" tall, only 1-1/4" short of an Isis, for comparison. Don't look anywhere near as nice as an Isis, but they're not $60K, either.

[spadez]

59" doesnt strike me as a crazy, thats just under 5' right? Im sure most people would prefer the performance of a speaker at the sacrifice of having a larger unit.

[JonMarsh]

Well, probably you and I, at least. Funny how these wind up being closer to the size and driver positioning of the Isis, now.

I've got a small crossover tweak on the LF to try out today, should flatten the mids between 300 and 1 kHz 2-3 dB, should really be in the money, then, though the slightly forward presentation sounds entertaining on some recordings.

I've got the test box for the NE180W to start putting together, have the waveguides on hand, just need spare time- spent two days working last weekend because of "emergencies". Getting tired of that stuff!

Maybe I'll have time to build the second new tweeter crossover, too.

[Dave Bullet]

Well, probably you and I, at least. Funny how these wind up being closer to the size and driver positioning of the Isis, now.

You know that saying Jon - "There's no replacement for displacement!"

[Face]

Jon, you could also try this configuration to smooth out the low end.

Image not available

[JonMarsh]

What's key?

Is it the gilt framed window in the center or the oriental rug that helps the most with the bottom end?

I remember seeing those somewhere before....

Do you know which ribbons those are and how they're crossed? I mean, an MTM setup with the C173N-T6-90 is gonna need a low crossover point to work well... of course, that doesn't affect the bass smoothness! I wonder how the LF crossover point works, too...


Looks pretty fancy schmancy compared with my humble stack...



The questions I'm pondering, once I get another pair of maple boxes for now, is do a BORG them all together, or keep the crossover box free as a plinth, and use external wiring and binding posts, which is a bit of a PITA.

Probably I'll have to check the Element and see if I can handle a 60" cabinet; if not, that will argue for keeping them detached. Believe me, lifting the existing cabinet set with crossovers on top of these piano black boxes was not for the faint hearted- more for the dumb as an ox type.

Got some more Jantzen and PE caps due to be delivered today- stuff for the Modula Xtreme and for the Ardents.

[Face]

I found that image in an ad for another accessory, I'll try to track down the make/model for you.

[Face]

Do you know which ribbons those are and how they're crossed? I mean, an MTM setup with the C173N-T6-90 is gonna need a low crossover point to work well... of course, that doesn't affect the bass smoothness! I wonder how the LF crossover point works, too...

Here they are: http://evolutionacoustics.com/mmthree.html

Specs: http://evolutionacoustics.com/evolut...brochure_4.pdf

They claim a 5" ribbon, maybe the RAAL 140-15D, although someone on AVS claims they're Aurum Cantus.

I wonder how much wood they waste being a trans lam. 8O

[---k---]

Probably I'll have to check the Element and see if I can handle a 60" cabinet; if not, that will argue for keeping them detached. Believe me, lifting the existing cabinet set with crossovers on top of these piano black boxes was not for the faint hearted- more for the dumb as an ox type.

I don't have to take your word for it...

[Bear]

I wonder how much wood they waste being a trans lam. 8O

If you have to ask, you can't afford it.

Of course, to be fair, I kind of like the MMOne and appreciate the design of the MiniTwo (even if I would worry about longevity of the downward-facing driver).

[JonMarsh]

Here they are: http://evolutionacoustics.com/mmthree.html

Specs: http://evolutionacoustics.com/evolut...brochure_4.pdf

They claim a 5" ribbon, maybe the RAAL 140-15D, although someone on AVS claims they're Aurum Cantus.

I wonder how much wood they waste being a trans lam. 8O

That's a LOT of trees chipped into sawdust!! :E :E


Well, working on the SACD player conversion, though I keep getting interrupted by one thing or another...

At least I'm enjoying some tunes....






Sure, the latter is trite, over played (in some quarters), but it's still a hoot on a good system, and a fairly amazing recording for 1976. '

Funny thing it was originally released as just one LP, and the first CD releases were the same, but later ones added the "out takes", many of which are quite good, I think I like the second disk better overall (maybe because I haven't heard it as much?) and it does benefit from SACD mastering.

76 was a good year for a lot of weird recordings....


And Avatar extracting cleanly with the right SVQ file.

[spadez]

Hi Jon,

Three further questions for you! I put off buying the drivers before as I wasnt really in the position to do so. However, I am in Florida at the moment, and im thinking its a good idea to try and buy my drivers before I go back to England since they are so much cheaper over here.

Are the drivers for the Modula Xtreme SO set in stone, or is there still a possibility they will change? I think I asked you before, but that was about 2 months ago and wanted to confirm nothing had changed since then.

As an extremely loose estimate, how much do you think the crossover components would be per two speakers? $100, $200 etc?

If I had a sub-woofer, would I be ok just to crossover the Modula xtreme So's over at 60Hz using my amp, or would I need to make alternations to the cross over inside the speaker?

Thank you!

[Jed]

As an extremely loose estimate, how much do you think the crossover components would be per two speakers? $100, $200 etc?

Ah... which cap are you looking at in the crossover.

[spadez]

Ouch, am I way off then?

[Face]

By a decimal point.

[spadez]

The crossover compoents for the two speakers are $1000? Even for the SO build? Wow did I get that wrong. These caps and resistors got expensive all of a sudden :x

[JonMarsh]

Of course, it's always possible to use the minimum cost components available, like Dayton film caps, Erse or Madisound cored inductors, it's up to you how much to cut corners. But a three way crossover is always an expensive proposition compared with a two way, as the differences in crossover frequencies and reactive component size makes the LF crossover point components large and expensive. No way to get around it, a low DCR 2.5 mH coil is expensive, a Jantzen C-Core being about $50. Now, you could use a more typical inductor as you might for a small two way, but with a 4 ohm load on the woofer, the insertion loss of a 0.5 ohm Inductor is substantial- that's burning power in the crossover. LCR zobels allow using high DCR, but you still need the caps. Three way crossovers just aren't cheap.

[JonMarsh]

I don't want to get a long discussion of capacitor quality and tradeoffs; I wouldn't spend the extra money on the premium parts if I didn't think I was getting my money's worth.
In many system configurations, it won't be worth it- for example, the small Modula MT XE with Clarity ESA caps produces very nice sound and imaging, and is good enough to highlight some of the differences between a $1,000 DAC and a $5,000 DAC. If you're only going to use a mid to low range mass market HT receiver and $100 CD player, no point in spending on the caps (I've heard the MT XE's in that type of system, too, where the first pair went, so I know whereof I speak).

[spadez]

I guess i was a little naive, i had no idea it would be that cost. The thing is you have spent time designing it with these specific components in mind, and with my lack of technical knowledge I don't think it's a good idea for me to be tweaking your components.

Realistically is a pair going to cost in the range of $1600-1800 for the drivers and crossover components as a very loose estimate? I've done the maths on the drivers but can't begin to estimate the crossover.

I've made another thread about comparable systems so if these do turn out to be too expensive for me then i can build a system more in budget.

[JonMarsh]

I'd have to put a Numbers or Excel sheet together, I don't believe in "loose estimates" :W, comes from doing an EE job for a living.

I need to do that in Numbers for the existing Xtreme, at the same time I'll put a generic BOM with "low cost" parts alongside.

[spadez]

Heh im sorry, its just I dont want to take any of your time but at the same time its becoming clear that I have no idea about what it will cost, and what I can skimp on to bring it into budget and still get the performance im after.

[JonMarsh]

Well, you can get an idea yourself by taking the crossover schematic and working up your own BOM. There's a reason we call this DIY.






Ignore R12 and C12- not used.

Detail values will change for the SO, but the topology and configuration will not be very different- this can give a fair cost estimate. The SO may be even less, as it may not take as much shaping on the midrange- but that's just informed speculation, so to speak.

[Paul W]

Another alternative would be to build with the budget crossover parts and then upgrade components over a longer period of time. An occasional pair of caps, and you end up with the "top drawer" system without so much short term pain.

I have never regretted buying good drivers and suspect, provided you don't go so far as substituting electrolytic caps, even a system with the budget crossover will amaze you.

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, what Paul said.

I even did that, in the process of upgrading midrange and tweeter caps from Clarity ESA to Clarity MR. In fact, I haven't finished, as the mids aren't installed, and only one speaker is updated on the tweeters. It's this stupid seven day a week job I have lately...

[savage25xtreme]

$2820 worth of drivers, whats a 200 dollar cap here and there? 8O

[ThomasW]

$2820 worth of drivers, whats a 200 dollar cap here and there? 8O

Now that's the attitude we're looking for ...... :T