My Modula MT’s are done. Impressions and many pics

[JonW]

It took me 6 months start to finish, but my Modula MT’s are finally done. They’re very nice. Thanks to everyone for all the various help I’ve needed along the way. :T And the design, of course. This was my first attempt at DIY speakers. I didn’t know much of what to expect. Here are all the details for those who might be interested…

Cabinet construction details:
Being as this was my first DIY speaker project, I wanted to have a rear access panel. That way I can get inside the speaker frequently to reverse my mistakes. I didn’t want to have to unscrew the drivers each time and wind up stripping the wood on the front baffle. So the cabinet design was with the rear access panel, t-nuts, screws, and lots of bracing in mind. I built 3 speakers. The construction photos are taken of the first speaker, mostly. So it’s the ugliest. My woodworking skills are progressing, slowly, and speakers Forum and Blogs came out prettier.

Finishing:
Before deciding on a finish, I read this excellent book cover to cover:

https://a.co/d/6UauOuv

The book is really amazing and I learned a lot of what is possible. I also then learned a lot of what I am not able to do. I experimented on scrap wood, veneer, etc. and things still did not come out close to what I wanted. I decided on flat cut maple veneer. That’s what I like these days. I used contact cement to add the veneer. The cement worked OK, but I did this in my basement (it’s getting cold now) and the solvent fumes were not good. (They didn’t really bother me- it’s more of a long-term health concern) So I will try the iron-on method next time. I added a thin wipe of tung oil to bring out the maple’s chatoyance and that worked out very well. Very, very nice looking. I then wanted a high gloss, smooth, water clear finish. From the book, I picked the Sherwin-Williams (Sherwood) CAB-acrylic high gloss lacquer. It didn’t brush on too smoothly, despite my trying many different layers, thinning with lacquer thinner, etc. So I bought the $100 Rockler HVLP sprayer and that was even worse. There was a fine mist, but also a consistent spitting out of the lacquer. The result was a very bumpy, pitted finish. So I brushed on the lacquer for the actuall speakers. Despite many coats, sanding, etc. I was not able to get a smooth finish. One photo below highlights the bumpy result. Not sure what I will do for my next project. For my sub and shelves I had good luck with Zar polyurethane. After the second coat, it really smooths out evenly just with brushing on. The only trouble there is it yellows the wood somewhat.

Listening impressions:
They do sound very nice. If you’re looking to get into some serious, audiophile speakers, this may be an excellent place to start. I like them. When you consider how little they cost, they’re amazing. They’re pretty clear, the highs are nice, the integration of highs to mids to lows is nice. More bass than I expected. I could be happy with these speakers for a while. Maybe not for a main music-only system (with a sub). But they’re very nice, indeed. Overkill for rear speakers, I’d imagine.

Comparison with Totem Forests:
The Totems can be seen in the first photo below. Like the Modula MT’s, they are a 2-way MT design. They cost something around $3,000. I bought these about a year ago after auditioning many speakers in the under $5,000 category. I quite like them. I was curious how an expensive, commercial 2-way design would compare to a well regarded DIY 2-way design.

I did some switching back and forth between the speakers. The differences between the two were present, but not that large at all. Where I really found more difference was when I was playing both at the same time- the Modula MT as the left speaker and the totem as the right. And I moved back and forth, from left to right. Then the differences seemed much larger. The Totem was just clearer. The Modula seemed less detailed. I don’t want to get into the poor audiophile descriptors of nuance, veils, etc. but the Totems do have more clarity. The Modula might have a wee bit more bass. So they’re close, but I did have a noted preference for the Totem. I asked my gal to compare the two, without telling her my impressions. She said the exact same thing.

So I know it may be heresy to say so around here, but I prefer the Totems. There is a noticeable difference. It’s not an enormous difference, but I think it’s there. Too bad, because I was really pulling for the Modula MT’s given how much time and effort I put into them. Which is not to say I’m unhappy with the Modula MT’s- they’re great. It’s just my preference for the Totems.

Maybe the Modula MT’s will improve their sound with a little break in? I’ve got them playing the radio all day while I’m at work. We’ll see.



So there are my impressions. Happy to answer any questions. They are very nice speakers and I’m quite happy with them. Thanks again to everyone here for all the help. :T



And now, the photos…

The lineup. From left to right, Modula MT, Totem Forest, my DIY shelves, Modula MT, Totem Forest, and my DIY sub:

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Some pics of what they look like close up:




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Here’s how the rear baffle, with the flare, will line up with the port:

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This is the internal bracing assembly. The flared port end you see will be the inside end of the port. The outside end of the port will be flared on the rear baffle. The 4 sides, front and rear baffles will be placed around these internal braces. Braces were then added to all corners as well.

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[JonW]

The two crossover boards. I used Solen caps, Mills resistors, and perfect lay inductors:

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Adding poly batting, crossovers, gasketing foam/weather stripping before closing up the rear baffle:

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The poor finishing job is easy to see here:


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Temporary stands:
Someone was asking about speaker stands for the Modula MT’s. Here are a couple pics of some temporary ones I made from scrap wood. I’ll make some real maple and cherry ones later, but I’ll be taking my time with those. So in the mean time…


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[Dennis H]

More detail.....

Nice job on the speakers, Jon!

I'm not surprised you perceive more "detail" from the Forrests. Stereophile liked the Forrest but noted the tweeter's running a bit hot in their measurements.

the upper-frequency tilt is real and, all things being equal, will probably add to the sense of perceived detail rather than make the speaker sound top-heavy.

Nothing wrong with that if that's what you like but I'd give the Modulas a chance and see if their flatter response doesn't grow on you after a while.

https://www.stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/378/index5.html

[Landroval]

I'm not surprised you perceive more "detail" from the Forrests. Stereophile liked the Forrest but noted the tweeter's running a bit hot in their measurements.

I have to say that in my opinion hot top end has nothing much to do with perception of details. Most of the energy in music is much lower in frequency and hot top doesn't explain anything about the amount of detail in mids and lows.

[chasw98]

Alright Jon! Excellent work. So it sounds like you built $2,000.00 speakers instead of $3,000.00 speakers for a fraction of the cost. They are wonderful speakers. It would be very interesting now that you and Gudrun have listened and determined that the Totems are more "detailed" to take a Sound Level Meter and run it through REW in your room for both sets and look at the frequency response. You just might find that the M/T's are flat and like Dennis pointed out that the Totems are a little top heavy.

Chuck

[---k---]

Jon,
Great post. And I must say, athough I haven't seen your speakers since you did the finish work, I remember them looking much better than they appear in the photos. My wife and I both were impressed, so give your skills a pat on the back. They deserve it for a first project done well.

You comments about the comparision to your Totems in interesting and a little suprising. I haven't heard the Modula's, but I have heard your Totems. To be honest, I wasn't all that impressed with your Totems. They sounded good, but I was expecting something special for $3000. The thing that stuck out most from our very limited listening, was the lack of upper bass and transition between the sub and the speakers. You have a pretty ugly (acoustically speaking) room. I wonder how much of it is just room placement and room acoustics. And maybe you now have more upper bass causing the uppers to not pop as much. -Don't know, I'm not an audiophile.

Tell you what, bring those bad boys up to Chicago next weekend and we'll hook them up in my room and do some real test.

[JonW]

Nice job on the speakers, Jon!
I'm not surprised you perceive more "detail" from the Forrests. Stereophile liked the Forrest but noted the tweeter's running a bit hot in their measurements.

Dennis-
Thanks. You may well be correct about the tweeter. I can’t really tell at this early stage. The Totem sounds like there is more sound whereas the Modula is missing some things. That might be more tweeter output, Idunno. One instance that stands out is track 9 of Neko Case’s Fox Confessor Brings the Flood CD. Lots of background hiss on that track. The Totem gives you lots of the hiss and the Modula much less, so it feels like something is missing with the Modula. If that makes sense.

Nothing wrong with that if that's what you like but I'd give the Modulas a chance and see if their flatter response doesn't grow on you after a while.

I’ll definitely give it more of a chance. And maybe it will change with some break in.

It would be very interesting now that you and Gudrun have listened and determined that the Totems are more "detailed" to take a Sound Level Meter and run it through REW in your room for both sets and look at the frequency response. You just might find that the M/T's are flat and like Dennis pointed out that the Totems are a little top heavy.

Thanks Chuck. Yes, I’ve been thinking of getting a microphone, amp and REW. (Does the REW work well on a Mac? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?) I don’t have an SPL meter, but maybe it’s better to just get the microphone/amp setup at first. I haven’t needed it yet for just 2.1 music. But it will be more important with a 5.1 movie system. Not to mention for experiments like you said. And heck, maybe a non-flat response just sounds better? Idunno.

Jon,
Great post. And I must say, athough I haven't seen your speakers since you did the finish work, I remember them looking much better than they appear in the photos. My wife and I both were impressed, so give your skills a pat on the back. They deserve it for a first project done well.

Thanks Ryan. They do look a little better in person. I downsized the photos for posting. The maple veneer + tung oil came out OK. But the lacquer… ummm…

The thing that stuck out most from our very limited listening, was the lack of upper bass and transition between the sub and the speakers.

I agree with you on that. I also felt like there was a hole between the sub and speakers. I always had the preamp-processor crossover set to its lowest- 60 Hz- because that’s what Totem recommended. But I’ve got it up at 80 Hz now and the speakers and sub integrate MUCH better.

Tell you what, bring those bad boys up to Chicago next weekend and we'll hook them up in my room and do some real test.

I think that can be arranged. Keep me posted for when/if you and Steve C are getting together. Give me a call or email.

[HMenke]

Jon,

Your post is really interesting in that it's one of the few where a budget-built DIY system goes head-to-head with a fairly expensive audiophile system. It's not often that you find a guy who drops $3000 on a speaker system and then turns around a year later to build a DIY project to see if he can beat it! h:

Maybe the difference in clarity is partly due to the wider Modula MT baffle compared to the narrower Forest design.

Edit: I'd also add that if the Forests employ 2nd-order crossovers, that could be another factor. IMO, 2nd-order crossovers in a 2-way system have an advantage in clarity over higher-order crossovers used in the same 2-way system.

Henry

[Mudjock]

I find this comparison really interesting since the Totem uses the HiVi D6.8 woofer, which Jon Marsh used in what can probably be regarded as the precursor to the Modula MT (a design using the HiVi woofer and the Vifa XT-25 tweeter in the Parts Express 0.75 cu. ft. MT cabinet with a similar crossver topology to the Modula MT) - and a Seas tweeter. To my ears, the RS-28a definitely sounds more relaxed than the current Seas tweeters (27 TBFC or TDFC) - so maybe the Seas variant of the Modula MT would be more to your taste.

I gathered up a couple pairs of extra cheap D6.8's on ebay, so I am encouraged to hear that they are at least respectable....

[cotdt]

I'm not surprised that the upper midrange on the ModulaMT's are less clear than certain other high-end speakers, since that's a characteristic of the Dayton RS180 driver. When I switched out the RS180 from my ModulaMT for the Peerless Exclusive (with slightly updated crossover), there was a noticeable increase in clarity. This leads me to beleive that it's the driver that is at fault. Although I have conflicting feelings for the RS180, make no mistake that the RS28A tweeter is world class!

[ThomasW]

When I switched out the RS180 from my ModulaMT for the Peerless Exclusive (with slightly updated crossover), there was a noticeable increase in clarity. This leads me to beleive that it's the driver that is at fault. Although I have conflicting feelings for the RS180, make no mistake that the RS28A tweeter is world class!

The Modula MT was designed as a quality inexpensive loudspeaker. The Peerless Exclusive is double the cost of the RS180. Jon has in numerous threads acknowledged the Peerless as being a good driver, and months ago indicated they will be used in the up coming Arvo Type 3 'budget' design.

[Evil Twin]

The Modula MT was designed as a quality inexpensive loudspeaker. The Peerless Exclusive is double the cost of the RS180. Jon has in numerous threads acknowledged the Peerless as being a good driver, and months ago indicated they will be used in the up coming Arvo Type 3 'budget' design.

And there is also a Modula MT Ultra which the Emperor has entrusted me to complete in the near future, also using the 830883- owing to it's improved nonlinear distortion up to 2 kHz. But this will not be a system for those faint of heart or weak in the Force- to complement the 830883 and raise the bar for performance, a pair of C30N have been reserved.

[ssabripo]

Man, congrats Jon

excellent work there....now all you need is a flat panel Pioneer Elite or Fujistsu, the DIY WMTW RS Dayton Center, and you are in business my friend!! hehehehe.

But no, seriously, you did a good job with them, and the fact that they sound only slightly inferior to the $3k Totems Speak volumes, don't they?

good stuff, and thanks for sharing....hope to see more pics!

[rumatt]

the fact that they sound only slightly inferior to the $3k Totems Speak volumes, don't they? !

Maybe.

But some $800 speakers also sound only slightly inferior to the Totems. What really matters is how speakers in the $500-$1000 compare to the MT's.

For me, if I spend weeks building speakers and they don't outperform my ~$900 Paradigm's, I'll be disappointed. Because of this, I'm still balking on the Dayton designs.

[Dennis H]

And there is also a Modula MT Ultra which the Emperor has entrusted me to complete in the near future, also using the 830883- owing to it's improved nonlinear distortion up to 2 kHz. But this will not be a system for those faint of heart or weak in the Force- to complement the 830883 and raise the bar for performance, a pair of C30N have been reserved.

Yikes, ET, you're killing me. 8O This C30N? A $270 tweeter with a $76 woofer? I was hoping for something like a Modula 883/27TDFC.

I'm not surprised that the upper midrange on the ModulaMT's are less clear than certain other high-end speakers, since that's a characteristic of the Dayton RS180 driver. When I switched out the RS180 from my ModulaMT for the Peerless Exclusive (with slightly updated crossover), there was a noticeable increase in clarity. This leads me to beleive that it's the driver that is at fault. Although I have conflicting feelings for the RS180, make no mistake that the RS28A tweeter is world class!

Cotdt, sounds like you've already done what I was thinking of. What changes did you need to make in the Modula crossover?

[JonW]

Thomas and Evil Twin-
Please don’t think I’m complaining about the Modulas. I realize it’s a budget speaker. This was my first DIY speaker outing, so I needed to start with something simple. Even though I wasn’t looking to save monet. My woodworking and electronics skills are “beginner,” to put it kindly. I picked this project because of all the info that people have posted on it, photos of crossovers, etc. With a successful project now under my belt, and the fun I had, I probably want to progress on to more of a no compromise design (perhaps the fancy version of the Arvo). And thanks so much for the design, by the way. :T

Your post is really interesting in that it's one of the few where a budget-built DIY system goes head-to-head with a fairly expensive audiophile system. It's not often that you find a guy who drops $3000 on a speaker system and then turns around a year later to build a DIY project to see if he can beat it! h:

Thanks. I think this is great fun. :B

Maybe the difference in clarity is partly due to the wider Modula MT baffle compared to the narrower Forest design.

Edit: I'd also add that if the Forests employ 2nd-order crossovers, that could be another factor. IMO, 2nd-order crossovers in a 2-way system have an advantage in clarity over higher-order crossovers used in the same 2-way system.

I’m not sure what the difference is. I’m liking what Dennis said with regard to the tweeter.

I just had a look- the Totem uses a “2.5 kHz compensated 2nd order crossover.” Not sure what “compensated” means.

[ThomasW]

JonW,

Yes we understand. The Modula MT was designed as a quality 'entry level' speaker. And we're quite pleased with it's performace given the modest price of admission.

[JonW]

Mudjock-
Yup, it’s interesting. I see what you’re saying.

cotdt-
It’s the Rs-180, you think? I got the impression the missing clarity of the Modula was from the tweeter. But you may well be correct. I’m not really sure.

Man, congrats Jon

excellent work there....now all you need is a flat panel Pioneer Elite or Fujistsu, the DIY WMTW RS Dayton Center, and you are in business my friend!! hehehehe.

Thanks Sherv. Up until now, it’s all been 2.1 music for me. With 5 speakers I’m going to do try a movie setup. I’ll buy a projector within the next 1-3 weeks.

Maybe.

But some $800 speakers also sound only slightly inferior to the Totems. What really matters is how speakers in the $500-$1000 compare to the MT's.

For me, if I spend weeks building speakers and they don't outperform my ~$900 Paradigm's, I'll be disappointed. Because of this, I'm still balking on the Dayton designs.

Sounds like you need to listen to some of these designs before starting a build.

I listened to a lot of commercial speakers before buying the Totems. I liked some $1,000 speakers much better than some $1,500 ones. And some $3,000 more than some $5,000 ones. But, in general, the more expensive speakers around $3,000 were somewhat preferable to the $1,000 ones. You’ve just got to listen to them ahead of time.

[oxcartdriver]

And there is also a Modula MT Ultra which the Emperor has entrusted me to complete in the near future, also using the 830883- owing to it's improved nonlinear distortion up to 2 kHz. But this will not be a system for those faint of heart or weak in the Force- to complement the 830883 and raise the bar for performance, a pair of C30N have been reserved.

I'm curious to see what a uber hifi Modula MT or MTM looks like. I probably won't start my next project until after the holidays (February).

[oxcartdriver]

Evil Twin,

I'm curious to see what a uber hifi Modula MT or MTM looks like.

[cotdt]

I can't wait for the Uber Modula MT!

For my peerless ModulaMT's, I just used less tweeter attenutation since the peerless exclusive is a little more sensitive than the rs180. it's not really a proper crossover so i don't recommend it, as good as it sounds to me. and the RS180 does make better bass than peerless exclusive. waiting for the Uber ModulaMT or Jon's upcoming design is the best bet =).

[Dennis H]

For me, if I spend weeks building speakers and they don't outperform my ~$900 Paradigm's, I'll be disappointed. Because of this, I'm still balking on the Dayton designs.

Well, the time we spend is always an issue. But, to be fair, if you use the prefab PE enclosures JonMarsh spec'd, there's no reason you couldn't knock out a pair of Modula MTs in a weekend. OTOH, this is a hobby most do because they enjoy it. If your only goal is to save money and you begrudge the time you spend, forget it and buy something on Audiogon.

[---k---]

Hey,
Chris and I compared his $300 DIY MTM to a $800 pair of DynAudio 42s and to the $1400 Paradigm Studio 40s (threads elsewhere), and Chris's in my mind, his mind, and my wife's were head and shoulders above the others in the accuracy and clarity departments. I can only imagine how much better Jon's Modula's are. Sounds like I might get the chance to hear them compared to my current Ascends 340SE soon - getting excited!

We're really honored to have free designs of such great quality. Thanks Jon, Thomas, Chris, Brian and all others that do some great work here.

[rumatt]

Well, the time we spend is always an issue. But, to be fair, if you use the prefab PE enclosures JonMarsh spec'd, there's no reason you couldn't knock out a pair of Modula MTs in a weekend.

Good point.

OTOH, this is a hobby most do because they enjoy it. If your only goal is to save money and you begrudge the time you spend, forget it and buy something on Audiogon.

Yeah, I didn't mean to come off the wrong way. It's not that I don't want to put in any time. My goals are to a) learn a lot, b) have fun building them, and c) end up with a speaker that I love. I just want to maximize the chances of that last one.

[Evil Twin]

Yikes, ET, you're killing me. 8O This C30N? A $270 tweeter with a $76 woofer? I was hoping for something like a Modula 883/27TDFC.
Cotdt, sounds like you've already done what I was thinking of. What changes did you need to make in the Modula crossover?

Your lack of faith is disturbing... the 830883 is one of the the lowest distortion midwoofers available, rarely matched by drivers at two and three times the price. I would prefer to see a lower cost alternative with the RS28a, as the fall off in response at low frequencies makes the 27TDFC more difficult to work with in this two way configuration.

The HiVi D6.8 is capable of a most impressive low frequency output, properly implemented, but my own testing shows it not as clean in the upper midrange as the Peerless Exclusive. Tradeoffs. Different listeners will have different perspectives on the results. My first choice as always is voice and midrange instruments, but in a two way system one is always juggling costs and tradeoffs.

[SteveCallas]

But some $800 speakers also sound only slightly inferior to the Totems. What really matters is how speakers in the $500-$1000 compare to the MT's.

Modula MTs vs Ascend 340 Classics coming up next week :T

[yousuredo2]

dont fret, your finish can be smoothed out...
if you start with a 600/800 grit and work your way up to 1500...(wet sanding)
then polish them out, they will look amazing.

[Jim Holtz]

I'm not surprised that the upper midrange on the ModulaMT's are less clear than certain other high-end speakers, since that's a characteristic of the Dayton RS180 driver. When I switched out the RS180 from my ModulaMT for the Peerless Exclusive (with slightly updated crossover), there was a noticeable increase in clarity. This leads me to beleive that it's the driver that is at fault. Although I have conflicting feelings for the RS180, make no mistake that the RS28A tweeter is world class!

I've just got to disagree with the clarity statement. I've used the RS180's in Jon's Modula M/T's, Natalie P's and I have R150's in the RS 3-ways which are very similar. I also heard the RS180's in Curt's Exclamation! design that uses them as a mid in a 3-way configuration. There is no lack of clarity. If you have a clarity issue, check your crossover. It's not the drivers.

I'm also not nearly as high on the RS28 as you are. I rank the Seas 27TBFC/G and 27TDFC ahead of the RS28 for sound quality. The RS28 is a nice tweeter but it sounds a bit dead to me. I will say that they sounded very good in Curt's Exclamation design. He did a little crossover magic to eliminate the roll off at 17K which seems to have restored some of the top end extension they're missing. Anyway, it was very, very nice.

I doubt that the RS180's will have Seas W18 owners clamoring to switch but the RS180's are an excellent driver that perform far beyond their cost. I was really high on the Exclusive after looking at the distortion measurements etc. but my enthusiasm diminished after I chatted with some folks that used them and they commented that the driver lacked detail in comparison to the hard cone drivers that are popular. I'm a detail freak so that was a real turn off for me.

My $.02 worth....

Jim

[mmoeller]

I've just got to disagree with the clarity statement. I've used the RS180's in Jon's Modula M/T's, Natalie P's and I have R150's in the RS 3-ways which are very similar. I also heard the RS180's in Curt's Exclamation! design that uses them as a mid in a 3-way configuration. There is no lack of clarity. If you have a clarity issue, check your crossover. It's not the drivers.

I'm also not nearly as high on the RS28 as you are. I rank the Seas 27TBFC/G and 27TDFC ahead of the RS28 for sound quality. The RS28 is a nice tweeter but it sounds a bit dead to me. I will say that they sounded very good in Curt's Exclamation design. He did a little crossover magic to eliminate the roll off at 17K which seems to have restored some of the top end extension they're missing. Anyway, it was very, very nice.

I was able to hear the RS180 three ways, as well as the RS150 version three way. My preference there was for the RS150. I wouldn't say clarity of the RS180 was the difference. It performed very well in the Modula MT configuration. I just thought the RS150 was more detailed, and a better fit for a three way that wasn't lacking in extension.

I guess what I'm saying here is that changing out the RS180 for a very similar driver wouldn't convince me of a huge difference in detail in the upper midrange as COTDT had suggested. However, I do think that the RS150 did have a noticeable difference, at least in the three way configuration. I would think that it would make a difference in the MT as well, but sacrificing low end extension.

[cjd]

If you make it as far North as me Jon, you're still welcome to swing by. Bring speakers, bring music. I have the MTM's as well as the monster towers.

I don't know how the Modula MT's compare to the NatalieP but I do remember thinking the NatP's were a bit dry. I've only heard them once, however, and the room was difficult in a way audiophiles probably aren't used to dealing with.

C

[---k---]

Chris,
Why don't you venture down to Naperville on Saturday?

[dawaro]

Finishing:
Very, very nice looking. I then wanted a high gloss, smooth, water clear finish. From the book, I picked the Sherwin-Williams (Sherwood) CAB-acrylic high gloss lacquer. It didn’t brush on too smoothly, despite my trying many different layers, thinning with lacquer thinner, etc. So I bought the $100 Rockler HVLP sprayer and that was even worse. There was a fine mist, but also a consistent spitting out of the lacquer. The result was a very bumpy, pitted finish. So I brushed on the lacquer for the actuall speakers. Despite many coats, sanding, etc. I was not able to get a smooth finish. One photo below highlights the bumpy result. Not sure what I will do for my next project. For my sub and shelves I had good luck with Zar polyurethane. After the second coat, it really smooths out evenly just with brushing on. The only trouble there is it yellows the wood somewhat.

Jon you might want to look at your local Home Depot or Lowes for lacquer in spray cans. I have used it several times for smaller projects and it works great. I think the brand is Deft. It is in a white can with blue letters. Also when spraying lacquer with a gun you also have to make sure that it is sprayable. I have noticed on the lables that some of the brush lacquer is not recomended for spraying even if it is thinned.

[JonW]

Chris,
Why don't you venture down to Naperville on Saturday?

:agree: If we could get you and SteveC to make it, that would be worth the drive up fr me, from the corn fields here.



Yoursuredo2 and Dewaro-
Thanks for the finishing tips. Spray can lacquer sounds like something easy to try for the next project. :T The lacquer I have says it’s OK for spraying. Maybe my sprayer just stinks. Or I have zero experience with it. Although I did play around with it for a day. Yes, I read about polishing options in that book I linked to. Still considering it. Or maybe save that for the next project.

[cjd]

Chris,
Why don't you venture down to Naperville on Saturday?

I can't bring the towers :P I think Jon was wanting to hear those (?)

Actually, I can spare some time at home, but it's a project weekend (making truffles, and I think I may see about starting on a gift for my wife) so I don't know how well that would fly. Don't remember if anything else is happening just now, it gets crazy on the scheduling this time of year. Concerts, family stuff, work...

C

[JonW]

I was able to hear the RS180 three ways, as well as the RS150 version three way. My preference there was for the RS150.

I guess what I'm saying here is that changing out the RS180 for a very similar driver wouldn't convince me of a huge difference in detail in the upper midrange as COTDT had suggested.

Very interesting. Good to have a comparison. So maybe it is the tweeter- or the level of output from a given tweeter?

If you have a clarity issue, check your crossover. It's not the drivers.

Thanks Jim. I did check my crossovers extensively, as discussed here:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23097

So I’m pretty sure the crossovers are true to the design.

I rank the Seas 27TBFC/G and 27TDFC ahead of the RS28 for sound quality.

Interesting.

I did some more listening last night, comparing between the two speakers. I *think* (and could be totally wrong) the perceived clarity issue is with regard to the tweeter. The highs are just crisper with the Totems, more in-your-face, more detailed. Heck, maybe just louder. It also seemed like the sound stage was wider with the Totems. (Although I dislike such nebulous audiophile terms as that.) Idunno…

That said, the Modula MT's are, indeed, very nice speakers. I can't even imagine how good they would seem if I was, say, 20 years old and just built these as my first true audiophile speakers.

[cjd]

The highs are just crisper with the Totems, more in-your-face, more detailed.

These things all speak to the frequency response differences. Perhaps even that nasty breakup spike the Totems have.

Jim and I like to go around on the tweeter discussion - we agree on the sonic traits largely, but we disagree on our choice(s) of the bunch. I find the TBFC to be sweet, but fatigue inducing - a tad harsh. The TDFC is smooth, a bit bright without being tamed. The RS28A is simply crisp. I prefer the TDFC.

I also think I prefer the RS150 as a mid over the RS180, very very slightly.

C

[JonW]

These things all speak to the frequency response differences. Perhaps even that nasty breakup spike the Totems have.

Jim and I like to go around on the tweeter discussion - we agree on the sonic traits largely, but we disagree on our choice(s) of the bunch. I find the TBFC to be sweet, but fatigue inducing - a tad harsh. The TDFC is smooth, a bit bright without being tamed. The RS28A is simply crisp. I prefer the TDFC.

I also think I prefer the RS150 as a mid over the RS180, very very slightly.

C

Makes sense. I listened to a lot of speakers before buying the Totems. They've got the clarity I like, but they don't get into the fatiguing range (to my ears). There are other speakers I liked the sound of right away, but thought I might get sick of after a while. Linn comes to mind.

Not to open another cans of worms, but what the heck: To make an amp analogy, it almost feels like the Totems are solid state and the Modula MT's are tubes.

[Jim Holtz]

Very interesting. Good to have a comparison. So maybe it is the tweeter- or the level of output from a given tweeter?

Thanks Jim. I did check my crossovers extensively, as discussed here:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23097

So I’m pretty sure the crossovers are true to the design.

Interesting.

I did some more listening last night, comparing between the two speakers. I *think* (and could be totally wrong) the perceived clarity issue is with regard to the tweeter. The highs are just crisper with the Totems, more in-your-face, more detailed. Heck, maybe just louder. It also seemed like the sound stage was wider with the Totems. (Although I dislike such nebulous audiophile terms as that.) Idunno…

That said, the Modula MT's are, indeed, very nice speakers. I can't even imagine how good they would seem if I was, say, 20 years old and just built these as my first true audiophile speakers.

Jon,

After reading my post it came across different than I meant it to. I always suggest rechecking the crossover since I've screwed so many up. :roll:

All of the RS designs at the Iowa event had Seas tweeters except for Curt's design which had RS28's. Brian's and my RS 3-ways both used the 27TBFC/G and my Modula M/T's used the 27TDFC. I suspect you might like the sound of the Modula M/T's with the 27TBFC/G rather than the RS28's based on your comments. It is very crisp and full bodied sounding with a very nice top end sparkle to my ears. YMMV...

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

Makes sense. I listened to a lot of speakers before buying the Totems. They've got the clarity I like, but they don't get into the fatiguing range (to my ears). There are other speakers I liked the sound of right away, but thought I might get sick of after a while. Linn comes to mind.

Not to open another cans of worms, but what the heck: To make an amp analogy, it almost feels like the Totems are solid state and the Modula MT's are tubes.

Jon,

Darn it, you guys should have driven to Iowa for the event. I think you would have liked it a lot. Several of the designs listed here plus several other outstanding designs were represented. I'm still "lusting" for the Accuton and Visaton drivers I heard. They were both spectacular. :T

As Chris said, we agree but disagree on the 2 Seas budget tweeters. I prefer the metal dome and he prefers the soft dome. Both are exceptional for such inexpensive tweeters.

Edit: One other thing, the Modula M/T is a very smooth sounding speaker. It's extremely clean sounding rather than crisp to my ears.

Jim

[ThomasW]

JonW,

Since your post has been hijacked things are getting confusing. Jim Holtz's crossover comment was not referring to your crossovers. He was instead referring to the post by cotdt where he was complaining about the high end performance of the RS180

[JonW]

JonW,

Since your post has been hijacked things are getting confusing. Jim Holtz's crossover comment was not referring to your crossovers. He was instead referring to the post by cotdt where he was complaining about the high end performance of the RS180

I see. No worries. Thanks.

I suspect you might like the sound of the Modula M/T's with the 27TBFC/G rather than the RS28's based on your comments. It is very crisp and full bodied sounding with a very nice top end sparkle to my ears.

That sounds like something I definitely need to listen to. Our tastes may be quite similar.

Darn it, you guys should have driven to Iowa for the event. I think you would have liked it a lot.

I thought about it, actually. But was waaaaay too busy at work to get away. I heard a rumor about a Chicago DIY event that sometimes takes place this time of year?

Edit: One other thing, the Modula M/T is a very smooth sounding speaker. It's extremely clean sounding rather than crisp to my ears.

Yes! Excellent description. :T

[cjd]

I have no idea what happened to a Chicago event. I was supposed to be the talker in the DIY room (emcee?) but... maybe after the new year?

C

[Jim Holtz]

I have no idea what happened to a Chicago event. I was supposed to be the talker in the DIY room (emcee?) but... maybe after the new year?

C

Hi Chris,

I don't think Dave Ellis was able to come up with someone to hand the event off to. He's been unable to get away from work so the logistics of arranging an event that far away was impossible. He was working the weekend that we had the Iowa event and couldn't make it.

Dave did faithfully sponsor us again. He has been one of the most loyal supporters of the event. We have several extremely generous sponsors that make the event more rewarding when you win a prize. I really appreciate what they do for us. Dave contributed a pair of OWIII's as a prize this year. Sweet! :T

Jim

[cjd]

Well, I know he had lined a bunch of stuff up, but venue and a specific date may have been the holdup. Far as I know he was trying to make it so he didn't have to actually BE there and it would still be able to go off without much of a hitch.

hmm.

C

[WillyD]

I can't even imagine how good they would seem if I was, say, 20 years old and just built these as my first true audiophile speakers.

I can tell you, as a 20 y/o who built these as my first good speakers, that they are fantastic.