A subwoofer journey...(CSS SDX12 + 3x APR12 Passive Radiators)

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  • theSven
    Master of None
    • Jan 2014
    • 855

    #46
    Originally posted by technodanvan
    Let's see if this upload works... I remodeled the box making each individual part a 'component' in Fusion360, which enabled me to generate a part list and individual diagrams. I didn't really follow any conventions when adding dimensions to the diagrams so they're kind of all over the place, but you might notice some of them are pretty nice. Note there are no individual diagrams for the pieces made of baltic birch since I shouldn't need them - they're all simply rectangles that are adhered to the inner MDF box, so I'll probably just use actual measurements and cut just a little too large. They're shown on the parts list anyway, just in case.

    Edit: I should also point out there are some very minor errors in this document, but none that are critical (that I'm aware of). I'll be using a printout to (hopefully) make some sawdust this weekend so if there are any major errors I can fix them.
    Does the output save to PDF like that? Is there an option to save as image files as well that you could upload that way? Pretty cool none the less. I've not got very much experience working with those files which makes it exciting to see one when they are shared. Looking forward to seeing some sawdust soon 🤩
    Painter in training

    Comment

    • technodanvan
      Senior Member
      • Nov 2009
      • 998

      #47
      Well, yes and no. The actual 'export' feature is locked for the free version of Fusion360, but what I can do (and did do) is print to PDF. Another feature that is locked is having a multi-page set like I created, so I had to do them all individually, then join them together in Acrobat Pro (hence the filename). I believe I can export from Acrobat as images at that point, so I'll look into that sometime.
      - Danny

      Comment

      • technodanvan
        Senior Member
        • Nov 2009
        • 998

        #48
        Well, I made some progress last weekend. Got all the MDF pieces rough cut with a track saw, then trimmed them to size with a table saw. I did not cut out any of the Baltic birch yet since I won't be needing it for a bit. While I was waiting for a new tool I cut down the window braces. Since this is all interior stuff (and I don't have a CNC) I don't see much reason to make them fancy, so I eyeballed the location of each corner and gave it a whack with a punch, then drilled them out. Close enough for me! I then cut out each window with a jigsaw.




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        My new tool arrived while I was doing all this, but unfortunately it can't be used yet. Turns out the reviewers on Amazon were incorrect - this cannot be used with a Festool track (at least not with my router). This adapter was about $90 and a 46" Dewalt track is about $60...compared to probably $1,000 for a Festool router and accessories. I decided to get the Dewalt track. The adapter feels decently solid so I think it'll work.

        Click image for larger version  Name:	IMG-0338.jpg Views:	0 Size:	798.0 KB ID:	928124​In the meantime I can't really do anything other than lay out all the cuts I'll need to make for the other braces. I recalculated the volume and elected to not use the blanks as I had previously planned, I think I'd rather err on the side of a slightly too large cabinet than a slightly too small cabinet. It's only a couple of liters, but this makes me a bit more comfortable.
        - Danny

        Comment

        • technodanvan
          Senior Member
          • Nov 2009
          • 998

          #49
          For those that have been paying attention, you might have noticed the bracing is offset a few inches in both the X and Y dimensions. This was originally by design - I had the amplifier offset on the rear and it requires about 6 inches of interior width. Since then I elected to move the amplifier to the center and expand the amplifier compartment for three reasons. One, I need to consume a little volume anyway. Two, I didn't feel comfortable with the tight compartment for the amp; I was concerned about heat buildup (despite it being Class D with a fan. Yeah I know my worries are probably unfounded). Three, I figured if anyone else wants to do something similar they may want to go with a more conventional plate amplifier like the 1,000 watt one from Dayton Audio.

          So, why didn't I redesign the bracing so it would be centered, at least on one axis? Laziness mostly, while I enjoy doing CAD work I don't really enjoy repeating work. If there is interest in making it a bit simpler to construct I can always adjust it later. Of course, I also already have the bracing cut, so I didn't really want to do that again either!

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          - Danny

          Comment

          • JonMarsh
            Mad Max Moderator
            • Aug 2000
            • 15261

            #50
            Hey, every design should have a bit of quirky originality, right?

            😁
            the AudioWorx
            Natalie P
            M8ta
            Modula Neo DCC
            Modula MT XE
            Modula Xtreme
            Isiris
            Wavecor Ardent

            SMJ
            Minerva Monitor
            Calliope
            Ardent D

            In Development...
            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
            Obi-Wan
            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
            Modula PWB
            Calliope CC Supreme
            Natalie P Ultra
            Natalie P Supreme
            Janus BP1 Sub


            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

            Comment

            • Browncoat
              Senior Member
              • Oct 2016
              • 130

              #51
              Ah, I wondered about that. I thought maybe it was something related to sonics, but forgot to ask. I guess one upside is that it's nearly impossible to perfectly center stuff, so if you don't mark left/right, things never seem to line up just right during a stressful glue-up. Your design makes left/right and front/back very clear.

              Comment

              • technodanvan
                Senior Member
                • Nov 2009
                • 998

                #52
                Originally posted by JonMarsh
                Hey, every design should have a bit of quirky originality, right?

                😁


                Exactly, because a tall subwoofer isn't quirky enough! 😂


                Originally posted by Browncoat
                Ah, I wondered about that. I thought maybe it was something related to sonics, but forgot to ask. I guess one upside is that it's nearly impossible to perfectly center stuff, so if you don't mark left/right, things never seem to line up just right during a stressful glue-up. Your design makes left/right and front/back very clear.
                Well, I suppose one could make the argument about creating different sizes of unbraced panels to reduce resonances caused by exciting said panels...but unfortunately, I think that's more of a 'height' thing in my particular case. As it happened - and this was by accident, though I like the exterior look - the cutouts on the front are perfectly centered, meaning the top and bottom unbraced bits are the same height. I'm not too worried about it though, the panels aren't large and these things will be tanks when done. I'm sure I'm overdoing it by a fair margin.

                Anyway, the new track is supposed to be here Monday, so this weekends task is to get all panels marked up for the cuts I'll be making. Otherwise, I'll be doing a bunch of circle cutouts - I'm going to try this with a battery-powered Makita trim router in place of my larger Dewalt. While the latter is nice because it has dust collection, I find the hose and cord get tangled quickly. Also, the 1/4" collet never seems to hold bits securely for some reason. I just received the plunge base for the trim router along with a new Jasper jig for it, so I really hope it works out. Need to remember to wear a respirator though, cuz I'm going to be absolutely plastered with MDF dust.

                I think I may need to get another gallon of Titebond III as well, the one I have has been sitting for over a year and I'm not sure if it's good anymore. Might have to brave a trip to Home Depot...always a risky endeavor taking my wallet there.
                - Danny

                Comment

                • Browncoat
                  Senior Member
                  • Oct 2016
                  • 130

                  #53
                  Titebond 3 is an excellent product, but I don't use it much any more. Strength and water resistance is rarely an issue for me, so I like Titebond Extend for most stuff, and even Titebond hide glue for dovetailed jewelry boxes and the like. They have a longer open time and are easier to sand, IMO. But the big reason is that somehow I always manage to get a spot of TB3 on my clothes, and if it dries, it'll never come out!

                  Comment

                  • technodanvan
                    Senior Member
                    • Nov 2009
                    • 998

                    #54
                    I'm a pretty big fan of TBIII, but unfortunately my local Home Depot was out of the gallon sized jugs of it. I'll just use TBII for face gluing together and TBIII (in a medium bottle) for joints. But first, I need to get to a place where I can glue! I didn't do as much as I wanted to this weekend because I woke up Saturday with some weird energy - I rearranged my office/music room so the stereo system is finally against the short wall, and in the process added more available floorspace so I could pull the speakers further away from the wall. This was a necessary step for these subwoofers by the way; previously my office did not have anywhere near enough room for them. Now they'll go in the corners behind each speaker. I'd still like to get the TV out of there and get a nicer stand...and some way to hide cables...but this is much better than what I had.

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                    ​With the new location of the stereo comes a new location for my desk as well.

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ID:	928333​Part of finding room in my office was moving stuff out. The major piece of which is a motorized heigh-adjustable steel Lista workbench. I don't know what this thing weighs, but I did shoulder the whole thing once when it was standing on end. I felt that side of my body just sort of 'give' and inch and I'm pretty sure I'm permanently shorter now. Anyway, it was real fun to muscle out back to the garage. On the plus side, I now have an additional surface to spread this project out.

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                    Over the weekend I did wrap up laying out the remaining pieces for the braces and drilled out the corners. I elected to not cut out any windows yet so my router track has more material to grip when cutting dadoes.


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                    Then finally tonight it happened, my track arrived! It's a little too short to do the long cuts in one go, but I think it's a nice compact length (46") for most anything else I'd be doing. I elected to not use it tonight, though I did get it set up for the first cut.

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                    - Danny

                    Comment

                    • Steve Manning
                      Moderator
                      • Dec 2006
                      • 1879

                      #55
                      Been busy Danny!
                      Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                      WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                      Comment

                      • technodanvan
                        Senior Member
                        • Nov 2009
                        • 998

                        #56
                        I've been trying to keep this thing moving forward Steve. I have ambition/motivation only at certain times, so it's important to take advantage of it when I'm feeling it. Example: Around noon today I was feeling pretty pumped to make some sawdust so I took the afternoon off.

                        As per usual (for me) I don't do this stuff often enough so I tend to forget things. Let's put this in order of operations, "measure twice, cut once" is the standard mantra. I think for me it should be "measure twice, clamp thrice, measure (again), cut once". I may have tried to make a long dado on an unclamped surface. It did not go well, though I saw it happening in real time so I corrected as I went. It was at that point I decided to just cut the short dadoes and wait for yet another tool to arrive today - an edge guide for my router. In any case, now that I have a system down I think I could reliably cut those long dadoes with the track router but I'll hold off all the same.


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                        To my dismay, one of the clamps I tried using was the below...it does not fit a DeWalt track, it's just a little bit too wide. So much for making these expensive-for-no-reason clamps universal. I blame DeWalt seeing as how they were late to the tracksaw party.

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                        At this point I had cut a dozen dadoes and had a dozen more to cut. My back was starting to trouble me a little and I was feeling like quitting for the day. Instead, I pushed through and clamped the last three pieces together so I could just do four long dadoes instead of 12 short ones. It actually worked pretty well!

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                        I ended up cutting six of the eight windows in the 'wing' braces (as I call them). I lost ambition so I didn't finish the last two this afternoon. I've got plenty more to cut on the primary braces anyway.


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                        Anyhow, I'm hoping that tomorrow or Thursday I can start gluing the braces together.
                        - Danny

                        Comment

                        • theSven
                          Master of None
                          • Jan 2014
                          • 855

                          #57
                          The excitement is building here watching this design come to reality. I like that track for the router too. Next time I'm out in Vegas I will have to see if you're around to come hear these!
                          Painter in training

                          Comment

                          • technodanvan
                            Senior Member
                            • Nov 2009
                            • 998

                            #58
                            Originally posted by svenarajala
                            The excitement is building here watching this design come to reality. I like that track for the router too. Next time I'm out in Vegas I will have to see if you're around to come hear these!
                            The new listening position really changes things quite a bit, but one downside is the bass is a bit thinner since we don't have that rear wall for reinforcement. I'd say the bass is better overall though, seems tighter somehow. Honestly I think the best listening position might actually be my desk, despite the monitor being in the way. I'll have to play around with it some more, but you are more than welcome, of course!

                            I took part of the afternoon off again and made a little more progress. Only one more long dado to go, but I couldn't bring myself to do it just yet - it's the one I messed up, and I want to be sure the second time it's done right. But importantly, we have a completed center (spine) brace!


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                            MOST importantly though, we actually have a glue sighting!!!

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                            I'm going to see how hard it is to chisel off the excess glue before completing the other one; I may do a better job of wiping up excess next time. But now that we have begun it should start looking like a box reasonably soon.

                            I also need to fix one of the subwoofers. The first one I opened had a loose beauty ring and I assumed it was supposed to be that way, but I could not for the life of me figure out how it went on. Well, I opened the second one and found the beauty ring adhered to the frame. I contacted CSS and just asked for some glue, I didn't see any reason to ship a 50 pound box across the country twice just for this. Dan at CSS responded the same day - a tube of epoxy would be here same day delivery via Amazon and I now have a coupon for $50 off anything on their site!

                            I'm trying to decide if the coupon is a good or a bad thing...I suppose I could invest in a pair of their XBL^2 tweeters...might be able to use them with the XBL^2 drivers from Misco for a full XBL^2 two-way. Haven't really looked at these beyond that first glance so I have no idea how they stack up against the competition.

                            Edit: Based on the posted SPL graph it looks like they're true woofers, not midwoofers. Bummer, I'd need an XBL^2 mid. Still though, this is a promising driver, perhaps as a replacement for the Anarchy should that become NLA or higher price...might need to think about these for my other project.
                            - Danny

                            Comment

                            • technodanvan
                              Senior Member
                              • Nov 2009
                              • 998

                              #59
                              Continuing this trend of taking off a couple hours in the afternoon, I wrapped up the last of the dadoes and continued the assembly process. For the small window braces (or 'ribs', as I call them) most of them don't quite line up perfectly. This is expected given the lack of a CNC, so I modified each of them slightly based on actual fitment. First I chopped off the inside corner to make room for any glue spill-out from the previous glue-up, then I took a sander to the edge that wasn't quite fitting. This made it relatively simple to tap into place with a hammer.

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                              - Danny

                              Comment

                              • Evil Twin
                                Super Senior Member
                                • Nov 2004
                                • 1531

                                #60
                                Originally posted by technodanvan
                                I'm a pretty big fan of TBIII, but unfortunately my local Home Depot was out of the gallon sized jugs of it. I'll just use TBII for face gluing together and TBIII (in a medium bottle) for joints. But first, I need to get to a place where I can glue! I didn't do as much as I wanted to this weekend because I woke up Saturday with some weird energy - I rearranged my office/music room so the stereo system is finally against the short wall, and in the process added more available floorspace so I could pull the speakers further away from the wall. This was a necessary step for these subwoofers by the way; previously my office did not have anywhere near enough room for them. Now they'll go in the corners behind each speaker. I'd still like to get the TV out of there and get a nicer stand...and some way to hide cables...but this is much better than what I had.

                                Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG-0345.jpg
Views:	381
Size:	2.90 MB
ID:	928332

                                ​With the new location of the stereo comes a new location for my desk as well.

                                Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG-0346.jpg
Views:	358
Size:	2.46 MB
ID:	928333​Part of finding room in my office was moving stuff out. The major piece of which is a motorized heigh-adjustable steel Lista workbench. I don't know what this thing weighs, but I did shoulder the whole thing once when it was standing on end. I felt that side of my body just sort of 'give' and inch and I'm pretty sure I'm permanently shorter now. Anyway, it was real fun to muscle out back to the garage. On the plus side, I now have an additional surface to spread this project out.

                                Click image for larger version

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Views:	368
Size:	2.93 MB
ID:	928334

                                Over the weekend I did wrap up laying out the remaining pieces for the braces and drilled out the corners. I elected to not cut out any windows yet so my router track has more material to grip when cutting dadoes.


                                Click image for larger version

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                                Then finally tonight it happened, my track arrived! It's a little too short to do the long cuts in one go, but I think it's a nice compact length (46") for most anything else I'd be doing. I elected to not use it tonight, though I did get it set up for the first cut.

                                Click image for larger version

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                                Shuffling materials and tools around in order to get things done is the bane but necessary work load of the ambitious...
                                DFAL
                                Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                Comment

                                • Evil Twin
                                  Super Senior Member
                                  • Nov 2004
                                  • 1531

                                  #61
                                  The new listening position really changes things quite a bit, but one downside is the bass is a bit thinner since we don't have that rear wall for reinforcement. I'd say the bass is better overall though, seems tighter somehow. Honestly I think the best listening position might actually be my desk, despite the monitor being in the way. I'll have to play around with it some more, but you are more than welcome, of course!



                                  In this case, you might find that a simple flexible measurement program aimed at evaluating the response with different speaker setups and room locations may be most advantageous, as in this case actually driver measurements are not a primary concern, nor level calibration. The basic Dayton measurement microphone should suffice.. with a basic audio interface like the Motu M2. When you have some time to experiment, and consider setups like the Cards or Wilson approach, you may find this "most interesting, " even if it is not feasible at this time for a permanent setup.

                                  I suggest TrueRTA. Though the popular REW should work well also, but would not provide some of the sophisticated analysis options.



                                  https://trueaudio.com/index.htm
                                  DFAL
                                  Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                  A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                  Comment

                                  • technodanvan
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Nov 2009
                                    • 998

                                    #62
                                    Originally posted by Evil Twin

                                    Shuffling materials and tools around in order to get things done is the bane but necessary work load of the ambitious...
                                    For those of us that can't have dedicated rooms for a given purpose, we must make do with our multipurpose rooms the best we are able. Everything in my garage is on wheels for a reason...

                                    Originally posted by Evil Twin
                                    In this case, you might find that a simple flexible measurement program aimed at evaluating the response with different speaker setups and room locations may be most advantageous, as in this case actually driver measurements are not a primary concern, nor level calibration. The basic Dayton measurement microphone should suffice.. with a basic audio interface like the Motu M2. When you have some time to experiment, and consider setups like the Cards or Wilson approach, you may find this "most interesting, " even if it is not feasible at this time for a permanent setup.

                                    I suggest TrueRTA. Though the popular REW should work well also, but would not provide some of the sophisticated analysis options.
                                    Yes, I'll definitely be doing something along these lines once the subwoofers are in place since I'll probably need to set some filters on the Hypex amps to keep peaking to a minimum. I'll take some sweeps of the mains at that time as well.

                                    Regarding the Ardents, I can set a high pass filter on the NAD M12 to take out some of the low bass that will be represented by the subwoofers. Do you think that's a good idea, or is the roll-off on the speakers sufficient to keep them protected without setting a high pass? Where do they begin rolling off naturally?

                                    ...maybe I should do a sweep sooner rather than later.

                                    Edit...


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                                    Last edited by technodanvan; 03 February 2023, 19:36 Friday.
                                    - Danny

                                    Comment


                                    • Evil Twin
                                      Evil Twin commented
                                      Editing a comment
                                      ...maybe I should do a sweep sooner rather than later.

                                      That, and high-pass the Ardents when you set up should be quite advantageous.
                                  • Steve Manning
                                    Moderator
                                    • Dec 2006
                                    • 1879

                                    #63
                                    Danny I can certainly add my vote to the Wilson (WASP), here is the video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOI8py0DAC8 It takes into account you actual room rather than using a formula to place the speakers. Worked like a charm in my old room in VA.
                                    Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                                    WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                                    Comment

                                    • technodanvan
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Nov 2009
                                      • 998

                                      #64
                                      Originally posted by Steve Manning
                                      Danny I can certainly add my vote to the Wilson (WASP), here is the video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOI8py0DAC8 It takes into account you actual room rather than using a formula to place the speakers. Worked like a charm in my old room in VA.
                                      Thanks Steve, I'll have to keep that in mind. I really need to figure out a better way of moving the Ardents. Even though I could probably shoulder the weight, they're just so awkward to get a handle on they're impossible to pick up.

                                      We're almost ready to start making the first sub look like a box, maybe tonight I'll start with the first baffle layer. Baffle and rear baffle will go on first, then the sides, then the second baffle layer on each end. So far everything seems to be fitting pretty well, the time spent on putting this through CAD has really helped a lot. Partially because the measurements are near perfect, partially because I'm just really familiar with how these things will go together.

                                      Anyway, today I started work on the first baffle layer. I don't like using the router too much in any given day because it's so loud (I'm more concerned about the neighbors, I'm wearing ear protection) so I just did the first one since it'll be a few days before the other box is ready. I do this with the garage door open due to all the dust I'm producing, as seen in the first photo below.


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                                      While doing this, in addition to hearing protection I'm using a full face respirator.

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                                      I also had an excuse to use my Woodpeckers drill guide for making 1/8" holes for the Jasper Jig pins. Could I have done this on the drill press? Sure, but this way I didn't need to support either end of the baffle myself, plus I stacked the two baffle pieces together and drilled partially into the second so no measurement is required. I don't think I could have managed that on the drill press, except for maybe the center hole.

                                      Edit: Now that I think about it, I think this guide cost almost as much as my Porter Cable drill press, pre modifications at least. Not a great purchase, though if you need it you need it.


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                                      So in the end I have three holes cut through a 1/2" of 3/4" MDF. I was initially concerned about not leaving very much meat on the outer edges but I think it'll be fine, so I'll cut through the other side and round off the interior at some point today or tomorrow.

                                      Regarding the battery powered Makita mini router - it worked PERFECTLY. The battery only had two of four bars when I started and still had a bar left when I finished. Each cut was only 1/4" deep to keep the load easy on the bit and the router. Very impressed with how it handled the cuts - I'd only previously done basic edge work with this little guy. It's messy since I don't have a vacuum attached, but boy is it easier to make circles without dealing with a hose and power cord.


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                                      - Danny

                                      Comment


                                      • Evil Twin
                                        Evil Twin commented
                                        Editing a comment
                                        Ah, another fan of Milwaukee and Woodpecker tools- most impressive!
                                    • technodanvan
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Nov 2009
                                      • 998

                                      #65
                                      I very nearly messed up, but fortunately I checked before I went too far. I had assumed the through cutouts were the same for the APR12 and the SDX12, but I remembered that the frames were different after I had made the above cuts. I eyeballed the frames and it suggested the APR12 was a little bigger, so I made the through cut in the middle hole (which is where I'm planning on putting the subwoofer now) and tested it out. Definitely fit the driver, definitely did NOT fit the PR. I dug up some other notes and found that while the SDX12 needs 10 7/8" the APR12 needs 11" - amazing the difference a 1/8" makes. It went from not close at all to just snug.

                                      I sort of got on a roll after that and finished the through cuts for all six holes in two baffles, neighbors be damned. Will do the rears tomorrow I think, I need to verify the cutout for the amps.

                                      I like this picture, it reminds me of my grandfathers shop. Not that he ever used MDF - he spent his days doing work with a scroll saw.


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                                      - Danny

                                      Comment

                                      • Steve Manning
                                        Moderator
                                        • Dec 2006
                                        • 1879

                                        #66
                                        Impressive amount of dust Danny! Not sure of compatibility, but Makita carries a dust extraction nozzle for their small routers. https://www.makitatools.com/products/details/194733-8

                                        I have something similar on a Porter Cable router. I also have an elbow with a swivel joint at the end that allows me to drop my dust extraction hose from above. This lets me spin the router without the hose getting tangled in the process. I cut some holes the other day in mdf and there was almost zero mess.
                                        Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                                        WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                                        Comment

                                        • technodanvan
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Nov 2009
                                          • 998

                                          #67
                                          That was one of the first things I looked into and as far as I could tell it was (oddly enough) incompatible. Also frustrating to me, a number of users stated the OD was an odd size that would only fit Makita vacuums. So yeah, I'm currently embracing the dust, but I'm glad I only have so much more MDF to work with before moving on to the birch ply.

                                          One last thing done tonight.


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                                          - Danny

                                          Comment

                                          • technodanvan
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Nov 2009
                                            • 998

                                            #68
                                            JonMarsh, Have a question regarding Unibox and stuffing/lining. My modeling in Unibox suggested using no stuffing produced the best result, followed by lining the box with foam. I was curious if in your experience Unibox was pretty good with these predictions, as lining the box would be very difficult once everything is assembled. Thoughts?
                                            - Danny

                                            Comment

                                            • JonMarsh
                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                              • Aug 2000
                                              • 15261

                                              #69
                                              I have found Unibox to be quite accurate, and because I really like the format of the graph data for each alignment type and the structure of the design process, I prefer to use it over more "modern" tools like VituixCAD. Sometimes for a really tweaky design (like bandpass enclosures) I'll go check with VituixCAD.

                                              Now, what do you mean by "best results"? Flattest extension? What's your system Q at FB? I don't recall seeing you put up your final design alignment with three PR's. Are you planning to setup the sub flat against a boundary, so the response calculated by Unibox or other tools will be representative of in room behavior with boundary loading? Otherwise, the distance from the wall will affect the final response, varying by frequency.

                                              My "gut reaction" is to at least use lining the walls, these are the pressure zone for the internal wave- but how high a frequency and at what level will the crossover occur? Usually I prefer to at least line with 2-3" fiber glass, or even better, ATS denim insulation, for a large enclosure. But then I'm usually operating higher up the frequency range for the crossover point, and the damping is more important.

                                              Of course, you can just build and test either way....

                                              And if you find the damping reduces the LF output a skosh, use a small amount of EQ.
                                              ​​​​​​​

                                              the AudioWorx
                                              Natalie P
                                              M8ta
                                              Modula Neo DCC
                                              Modula MT XE
                                              Modula Xtreme
                                              Isiris
                                              Wavecor Ardent

                                              SMJ
                                              Minerva Monitor
                                              Calliope
                                              Ardent D

                                              In Development...
                                              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                              Obi-Wan
                                              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                              Modula PWB
                                              Calliope CC Supreme
                                              Natalie P Ultra
                                              Natalie P Supreme
                                              Janus BP1 Sub


                                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                              Comment

                                              • JonMarsh
                                                Mad Max Moderator
                                                • Aug 2000
                                                • 15261

                                                #70
                                                Originally posted by technodanvan
                                                I very nearly messed up, but fortunately I checked before I went too far. I had assumed the through cutouts were the same for the APR12 and the SDX12, but I remembered that the frames were different after I had made the above cuts. I eyeballed the frames and it suggested the APR12 was a little bigger, so I made the through cut in the middle hole (which is where I'm planning on putting the subwoofer now) and tested it out. Definitely fit the driver, definitely did NOT fit the PR. I dug up some other notes and found that while the SDX12 needs 10 7/8" the APR12 needs 11" - amazing the difference a 1/8" makes. It went from not close at all to just snug.

                                                I sort of got on a roll after that and finished the through cuts for all six holes in two baffles, neighbors be damned. Will do the rears tomorrow I think, I need to verify the cutout for the amps.

                                                I like this picture, it reminds me of my grandfathers shop. Not that he ever used MDF - he spent his days doing work with a scroll saw.


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                                                And to think I used to scratch my head when I posted and no one saw saw dust anywhere - figured it was all staged, right?


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                                                Props to my DeWalt Vac/dust extractor from Costco, made in Italy! Every time I see someone loading one of these into their truck or SUV, I walk up and briefly tell them how much they're going to like it and how well it works! It's my favorite vac of all, followed by my special version of 12 gallon shop vac.

                                                Mind you, I'm just a wires and sparks guy, not a "Jen-U-wine" wood worker like Steve.




                                                the AudioWorx
                                                Natalie P
                                                M8ta
                                                Modula Neo DCC
                                                Modula MT XE
                                                Modula Xtreme
                                                Isiris
                                                Wavecor Ardent

                                                SMJ
                                                Minerva Monitor
                                                Calliope
                                                Ardent D

                                                In Development...
                                                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                Obi-Wan
                                                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                Modula PWB
                                                Calliope CC Supreme
                                                Natalie P Ultra
                                                Natalie P Supreme
                                                Janus BP1 Sub


                                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                Comment

                                                • technodanvan
                                                  Senior Member
                                                  • Nov 2009
                                                  • 998

                                                  #71
                                                  Hi Jon, I apologize, I didn't realize I hadn't shared these just yet. 70L (2.5 ft3), 3 PRs (1111 grams each), no stuffing/lining results in the below - going for flattest extension. UniBox shows that adding material to the walls slightly tips that lower end down a notch - probably not a big deal given room gain. My intent is to have both subs in opposite corners, approximately 6 inches from either boundary. Crossover will be low - guessing 60-80Hz - to allow the Ardents to handle the upper bass region. Unsure how steep the crossover will be at this time, I'll need to play around with both my processor and the Hypex DSP to determine how best to implement it.

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                                                  - Danny

                                                  Comment


                                                  • Evil Twin
                                                    Evil Twin commented
                                                    Editing a comment
                                                    As an experiment, check all the stuffing options and see which has the fastest damped step response- if there is any difference. your boundary conditions make it likely that controlling room acoustics with more effort will have a greater impact on the bass quality than this internal damping choice. But keeping the walls reflections reduced cannot hurt the cabinet performance.
                                                • JonMarsh
                                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                  • 15261

                                                  #72
                                                  Regarding the Ardents, I can set a high pass filter on the NAD M12 to take out some of the low bass that will be represented by the subwoofers. Do you think that's a good idea, or is the roll-off on the speakers sufficient to keep them protected without setting a high pass? Where do they begin rolling off naturally?

                                                  ...maybe I should do a sweep sooner rather than later.​
                                                  Yes on both points. Part of the benefit of a sub setup is reducing the workload on the "mains". If you can setup the high pass filter on the Ardents, it's certainly recommended. Even if just 2nd order.

                                                  Two thumbs up on the protective gear- I have ear protection and a respirator mask and goggles. My momma didn't do much to raise me, but I'm no fool!


                                                  the AudioWorx
                                                  Natalie P
                                                  M8ta
                                                  Modula Neo DCC
                                                  Modula MT XE
                                                  Modula Xtreme
                                                  Isiris
                                                  Wavecor Ardent

                                                  SMJ
                                                  Minerva Monitor
                                                  Calliope
                                                  Ardent D

                                                  In Development...
                                                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                  Obi-Wan
                                                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                  Modula PWB
                                                  Calliope CC Supreme
                                                  Natalie P Ultra
                                                  Natalie P Supreme
                                                  Janus BP1 Sub


                                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                  Comment

                                                  • technodanvan
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Nov 2009
                                                    • 998

                                                    #73
                                                    Sounds like a plan Jon, we're getting closer to the point where I can play with the electronics but I've had to put progress on the first sub on a short pause while I wait for some Sonic Barrier to arrive. By the way, do you have an online source for denim?


                                                    A few recent photos below. I made three of the four cuts for the amp cutout with my medium-sized DeWalt router (this time with dust extraction) and the final cut with a jigsaw - they turned out pretty good.


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                                                    Test fit for the amp...

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                                                    Where I'm sitting as of now. I should be able to install the final ribs on Sub 2 tonight, then the baffles tomorrow and Thursday. Sonic Barrier is projected to be here Thursday as well, so maybe I can get a side installed on Sub 1.

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                                                    - Danny

                                                    Comment


                                                    • Evil Twin
                                                      Evil Twin commented
                                                      Editing a comment
                                                      ATS Denim can be purchased either directly from ATS or via Amazon.
                                                  • technodanvan
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Nov 2009
                                                    • 998

                                                    #74
                                                    I also wanted to point out there are several accessories for the Hypex amps that I elected not to use, but others could. This include a small OLED display w/ remote sensor, a standalone remote sensor, and a remote. The remote seems more useful if you're using the amps for powered monitors and have sources directly plugged into the 'master' unit, so you could switch sources and adjust volume. The OLED would be kind of nice as it shows temperature warnings (and the volume) but realistically I shouldn't need to worry about that for my use case.

                                                    The primary reason I'm not using these is I don't want to mess up the look of the front of the subs down the line if an amp fails. Having a dead OLED display would not be great, IMHO.
                                                    - Danny

                                                    Comment

                                                    • 1Michael
                                                      Senior Member
                                                      • Sep 2006
                                                      • 293

                                                      #75
                                                      The denim insulation is hard to find in small quantities... https://vineyardsbd.com/
                                                      Michael
                                                      Chesapeake Va.

                                                      Comment

                                                      • technodanvan
                                                        Senior Member
                                                        • Nov 2009
                                                        • 998

                                                        #76
                                                        Thanks Michael, that might be a tad more than I need! May look into it for a future project though...
                                                        - Danny

                                                        Comment

                                                        • technodanvan
                                                          Senior Member
                                                          • Nov 2009
                                                          • 998

                                                          #77
                                                          Yesterday some Sonic Barrier arrived so I took the opportunity to install some of it in Sub1. I basically just hit the points that I wouldn't be able to reach very well once the box is closed up. I'll wait on the rest...I'm not a big fan of this step. You'll note none of the pieces fit particularly well and some are just plain bad.

                                                          It's at this point I'd like to invite other people to do build logs even if they don't have a CNC, perfect measurements, perfect cuts, perfect gluing, etc. We're all at different stages of skill and some of us don't do this all that often. Remember too that not all projects demand the finest craftsmanship - especially on the interior of a speaker. It's still fun to do (usually) and fun to show, regardless of the errors and missteps along the way, and sometimes BECAUSE of those errors and missteps. So yeah, share your work!

                                                          Anyway, I cut some holes through the amp section to create a pass-through for connecting the sub. As an FYI, I learned how to cut holes in foam the other day - use a hole saw but run it in reverse. Cuts through the foam like butter and doesn't tear it up along the way. I'm still debating how I want to install terminals in there. I was originally thinking a 5-way binding post so if the amp should fail I could just hook up the sub to a pro amp or something with banana plugs...but maybe I'll do something more rigid. I ordered some brass threaded rod, washers, and nuts with the possible intent of creating my own posts, but we'll see what happens. Fortunately I can do this while the box is closed so there is no rush.


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                                                          Once I foamed all the important bits, I glued the first side on.

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                                                          And this morning I added the other side...

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                                                          I'm trying to keep Sub1 and Sub2 at roughly the same stage of completion, so tomorrow I'll add some foam to Sub2 and glue on the first side. Maybe both sides, even. Once that is done I'll be switching to Titebond II and just doing face gluing as I thicken up all ends - 18mm Birch on the top, bottom, left, and right, 36mm Birch on the front and rear, and an additional 3/4" of MDF on the front. Doesn't seem too heavy yet, but it's going to be awkward for sure.

                                                          I'm almost ready to start calling around for fiberglass services and am hoping I get a better response than I'm getting for drywall repair - 6 calls so far, 6 messages left, no response. *sigh*
                                                          - Danny

                                                          Comment

                                                          • technodanvan
                                                            Senior Member
                                                            • Nov 2009
                                                            • 998

                                                            #78
                                                            It's been a bit since I posted an update and all I can really say at this point is things are progressing. Both subs now have double thick baffles and double thick tops/bottoms. Once sub now has the second layer of sides going on right now. After that, I have a lot of routing to do before I can glue anything else. It's getting cold now though so I think I'll need to wait for a bit of warmer weather before doing too much more of this. This last one was borderline too heavy for me to put on the bench...the Festool bench itself is pretty wobbly so I think I'll need to go back to gluing on the floor of the garage. I hate to do it but I also want my back to be happy.

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                                                            - Danny

                                                            Comment

                                                            • technodanvan
                                                              Senior Member
                                                              • Nov 2009
                                                              • 998

                                                              #79
                                                              Minor update today - I have adhered the third (of four) layers of the front baffle and decided to do a test fit to see how I was doing.

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                                                              Looks pretty good here. The box seems less large with this installed. However, there was one minor detail I had been worried about that I decided to check more closely.


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                                                              You'll notice the sub is actually resting on one of the braces slightly. Given that I hadn't installed the fourth baffle layer yet it isn't THAT surprising - my CAD model suggested there would be around 1/16" of space between the two once complete (and countersunk). It's close enough though I'll want to check the other box to confirm fitment will be okay, I can always sand down that area a bit if necessary.

                                                              We're getting closer, just four more pieces to glue in total - one each to the front and back of each sub. Lots of routing in between each though.
                                                              - Danny

                                                              Comment

                                                              • theSven
                                                                Master of None
                                                                • Jan 2014
                                                                • 855

                                                                #80
                                                                That's going to be 1 super thick baffle on the front of this box! Great progress update, and looking forward to seeing these cabinets painted.
                                                                Painter in training

                                                                Comment

                                                                • technodanvan
                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                  • Nov 2009
                                                                  • 998

                                                                  #81
                                                                  Yeah, the thick baffle is partially to mimic the design of the Ardent baffle - also 3" thick if my memory serves. But it's mostly to get that depth correct for mounting the subwoofer within the box with an appropriate volume, while getting the exterior dimensions where I wanted them to be. As a happy accident, the offset braces allow the subwoofer to breath a little via the pole vent. So uh...good thing I was lazy on that redesign.
                                                                  - Danny

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • technodanvan
                                                                    Senior Member
                                                                    • Nov 2009
                                                                    • 998

                                                                    #82
                                                                    We're at full depth on Sub #1! Sub Forum is in final glue-up now. Feels good to finally be done with this stage. I wrote up the next steps but I'm stuck on one thing - edging around the subs. I haven't decided if I want to keep them at 90 degrees, round them over slightly, put a chamfer on them, or some combination thereof. I do want to keep these relatively similar to the Ardents, so I think 90 degrees is probably closest for most edges. The baffle is thick enough I could also facet the corners too, but I have other plans for the front once Steve Manning is free to help and I'm not sure how the facet + faceplate would look together. I need to model that yet to see if it'll even work, much less look good while doing so.

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                                                                    - Danny

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • technodanvan
                                                                      Senior Member
                                                                      • Nov 2009
                                                                      • 998

                                                                      #83
                                                                      So Steve Manning has something to look at, I drew this up just now. Needs refined - want to add bolt holes at the top and bottom still, and maybe make the OD a bit wider. But I was thinking about doing something like this for the front, and possibly a smaller version on the back for the single PR. This would help hide the subwoofer frame. Also, it'd be made from bamboo ply, so it would link this design to that of the Ardents.

                                                                      I'm planning on removing all drivers from the Ardents at some point, installing brass inserts, and reattaching everything with chrome bolts - this would be attached with chrome bolts as well.


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                                                                      - Danny

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • technodanvan
                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                        • Nov 2009
                                                                        • 998

                                                                        #84
                                                                        Minor progress today. Finished the baffle cutouts and moved on to the rabbets. I have a little router kit with a bunch of bushings of varying thicknesses that allows me to make 1/8" steps when doing this, but I tried to measure the PR and discovered my calipers were just a little too small (12") to accurately pick the right one. So I picked a bushing that was close but for sure too big, then snuck up on the correct diameter by reducing the bushing diameter each cut. Made all six of the rabbets for the PRs, they turned out pretty good. I stopped there as I'll need to re-measure for the driver cutout and I wanted to enjoy some of the nice weather.

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                                                                        I decided to have the PR flange sit a little proud of the wood...I'm hoping it will be even once coated with fiberglass and painted.

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                                                                        - Danny

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • technodanvan
                                                                          Senior Member
                                                                          • Nov 2009
                                                                          • 998

                                                                          #85
                                                                          Well, things are moving forward a bit faster than I thought but that's mostly okay. All routing is complete and I drilled out the holes for all drivers with an 1/8" bit. I encountered a problem when I took it one step further and used a 25/64" bit to expand the holes for some brass inserts. First one went mostly fine, but the second one was a hair too close to the edge. After checking the rest of the holes I decided to not use inserts for the rest of them. I think I probably could for the subwoofer drivers themselves, but then I'd need to match screw heads which sounds like a pain. I'll just use wood screws I guess.

                                                                          As for the errors, I suppose I'll glue in some dowels and cut them off at some point, then drill them out again. Should be fine I think.


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                                                                          So here they are, all pretty much finished except for some interior stuff. I decided to start looking around town to find someone who could finish them. After stopping by around eight different places I finally found someone who could help. Elite Audio in Las Vegas was my final stop and I spoke with their president at length about my options. We decided on just coating them with a gel resin instead of going the fiberglass route, and they'll shoot them with satin white. I have high hopes for this! They had very reasonable pricing and I'm hoping to use them for future projects, so I really hope they turn out well. I should know next week...


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                                                                          In the meantime, I think I can clean up the garage and get my car back in just in time for the heat to come to the valley. I'll also wrap up the desk/benchtop that's in the background of the above picture. That'll be really nice to get out of the garage. I do need to explore some options for them to sit on in my office/music room until Steve can get around to making some bamboo bases for them. The pink foam insulation did a great job in my garage keeping them from getting too dirty/beat up moving them around, maybe I'll use something similar in my office.

                                                                          Edit: You might have also noticed a few areas where I sanded through the first layer of baltic birch ply. Unfortunately this was unavoidable as I had to smooth out some machining marks from a flush router bit. The bearing on the bit had become loose (unbeknownst to me) causing it to be a bit less than flush. I think the bit is ruined now. In any case, everything feels smooth which is all the matters. With satin white finish I don't think it will be noticeable.
                                                                          Last edited by technodanvan; 21 April 2023, 10:43 Friday.
                                                                          - Danny

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • JonMarsh
                                                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                                            • 15261

                                                                            #86
                                                                            In my experience, (remember, I'm not "Mr. Woodworker") Inserts can often bo problematical with most plywoods. Several even specifically say "Don't use these with plywood!". The only sort of plywoods I've had good results with for inserts have been bamboo and Maple Ply- both are denser woods with thicker ply than what we normally find in plywood like Birch ply.

                                                                            Otherwise, great progress Danny, the cabinets look fine, and it sounds like you have found a good guy to do the finishing work!
                                                                            the AudioWorx
                                                                            Natalie P
                                                                            M8ta
                                                                            Modula Neo DCC
                                                                            Modula MT XE
                                                                            Modula Xtreme
                                                                            Isiris
                                                                            Wavecor Ardent

                                                                            SMJ
                                                                            Minerva Monitor
                                                                            Calliope
                                                                            Ardent D

                                                                            In Development...
                                                                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                            Obi-Wan
                                                                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                            Modula PWB
                                                                            Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                            Natalie P Ultra
                                                                            Natalie P Supreme
                                                                            Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • technodanvan
                                                                              Senior Member
                                                                              • Nov 2009
                                                                              • 998

                                                                              #87
                                                                              Thanks Jon! I think part of my problem was using the drill bit that came with the inserts (which seemed a little aggressive), and I should have had another step working up to that size.
                                                                              - Danny

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • theSven
                                                                                Master of None
                                                                                • Jan 2014
                                                                                • 855

                                                                                #88
                                                                                Great update on the progress. Looking forward to seeing the paint job these cabinets get and when you get to listen to them and share some photos of where they got placed in the room.
                                                                                Painter in training

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • Steve Manning
                                                                                  Moderator
                                                                                  • Dec 2006
                                                                                  • 1879

                                                                                  #89
                                                                                  Hey Danny, for future reference check out what I did with Sven's Ardent D build. I had a very similar issue with the Accuton driver holes being very close to the cutout edge. Yes I did the recesses on the CNC, but you could also cut them with a small chisel.
                                                                                  Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                                                                                  WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • JonMarsh
                                                                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                    • Aug 2000
                                                                                    • 15261

                                                                                    #90
                                                                                    Originally posted by technodanvan
                                                                                    [SIZE=14px][FONT=Arial]Sounds like a plan Jon, we're getting closer to the point where I can play with the electronics but I've had to put progress on the first sub on a short pause while I wait for some Sonic Barrier to arrive. By the way, do you have an online source for denim?


                                                                                    But of course! Surely you don't think I can walk into a store and buy it around here?


                                                                                    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1



                                                                                    Like that quote from the Jack Nicholson movie,


                                                                                    Go sell crazy somewhere else! We're all stocked up here!



                                                                                    the AudioWorx
                                                                                    Natalie P
                                                                                    M8ta
                                                                                    Modula Neo DCC
                                                                                    Modula MT XE
                                                                                    Modula Xtreme
                                                                                    Isiris
                                                                                    Wavecor Ardent

                                                                                    SMJ
                                                                                    Minerva Monitor
                                                                                    Calliope
                                                                                    Ardent D

                                                                                    In Development...
                                                                                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                                    Obi-Wan
                                                                                    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                                    Modula PWB
                                                                                    Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                                    Natalie P Ultra
                                                                                    Natalie P Supreme
                                                                                    Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

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