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Steve, I have not seen a Salk speaker live and in person. Is there a gap between the wood baffle and the rest of the speaker? By that I am trying to say, does it look like the baffle is glued or does it look like it is sealed and can move independent of the rest of the speaker? As in having a gasket?MarkComment
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Comment
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Thanks Steve.
I added some silicone caulk between the inner baffle and the PVC tube. There was a gap and I thought that smoothing out the discontinuity would help since we went through the bother of rounding the edge off.
MarkComment
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When I visited Jim Salk and saw his baffles and cabinets, I saw one of the first Veritas 1s. He had a 1" wide, 1/4" or 3/8" thick rounded over batten applied to the edge of the cabinet front and flushed to the cabinet side. The batten was the same species as the baffle that he was using. The baffle was 3/4" thick stock with a table edge treatment (parabolic-shaped round over). The table edge bit creates a 1/2" curved edge. Then he had a rabbet. the same depth as the thickness of the batten, on the underside of the baffle edge which rode on the batten and allowed the baffle to sit if not against the cabinet front, at least extremely close to it. The batten round over and the baffle table edge curve more or less created a cabinet edge close to a 3/4" round over. I did not see how he fastened the baffle to the cabinet, whether he just glued, bolted or used a flexible adhesive or a combination.
Looking at the exotic species that he employs and the fact that he uses flat sawn stock as well, he would have to account for horizontal movement. If he glued the baffle with traditional wood glue , he could only glue down the center, or the wood would split or buckle. Even then, if the baffle cupped up, it would lift off the outer edge of the baffle and create a gap.
If he used bolts from the inside of the cabinet into insert nuts on the back of the baffle that were not in the center, (for example, in the four corners), then the bolt holes in the inner baffle could have small horizontal slots instead of round holes to allow the bolt heads to slide with wood movement.
In my rendition, I keep the outer baffle about 1/16" above the inner MDF baffle. The rabbet would be 5/16" on the 3/8" batten. Also, the baffle rabbet leaves a 1/8" gap from the batten inner edge for expansion space. The gap between the two baffles is filled with NoMoreNails and the outer baffle clamped to the cabinet overnight. I keep the wood movement to the minimum by using quarter sawn domestic black cherry, dried to 6-8%. Cherry is a very stable wood species in terms of wood movement. I think that the NoMoreNails does not cure to a hard state but still bonds the outer and inner baffles to a solid platform for the drivers. Doesn't quite match 4 inches of bamboo ply as a launching pad though. So far, over 15 years, I have not lost one baffle in an environment that sees extremes of humidity. But I might just be lucky because I am violating a woodworking rule by gluing the expansionist harwwood outer baffle to an immobile MDF inner baffle."Never underestimate that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world; indeed it's the only thing that ever has."
~Margaret MeadComment
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The use of an adhesive like you suggest with NoMoreNails could be an easy way attach wood to MDF. I recall using Liquid Nails and it was a "soft" joint when it cured. Is NoMoreNails a better choice than Liquid Nails?MarkComment
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I'm not sure of the differences between the two products. I think that I have used both and I think that they are similar.
On a small speaker again using a cherry outer baffle I used construction adhesive which does set up hard. I used a different method of constructing the outer baffle however. I didn't use a 3/4" board. I only had thinner stock which would only produce a 1/2" thick baffle. So I created the back rabbet with some ply. The plywood backer was glued with PVA normal wood glue to the hardwood outer baffle. This is a definite no-no as the ply will be stable but the cherry will move. Theoretically, the cherry should eventually pop off the plywood from the movement breaking the wood glue bond. These speakers were a set of inexpensive HT speakers for my daughter, so if they didn't survive it would only cost my time. I think that I have a few photos that I will try to find. They are still intact from 2012.
The reason that I mention the ply backer relates to the concept of attaching the hardwood baffle with bolts into a set of insert nuts in the baffle back. Instead of using ply for the backer, glue up a 3/8" rectangle of hardwood stock same material as the outer baffle. Drop the rabbet rectangle into the cavity on the outer baffle and position it precisely where it will end up bolted. Mark where you want the bolts to be located and drill holes through both the rabbet rectangle and the inner MDF baffle. Enlarge the holes on the inner baffle into slots horizontally by wiggling the drill bit sideways a few times so that it will be say 1/4" wide slot. Install t-nuts or insert nuts into the round holes in the rabbet rectangle. You should have a set of holes which line up with the insert nuts in the back of the hardwood baffle. Glue the rabbet rectangle on the outer baffle with the rabbet rectangle bolted to the cabinet with large flathead bolts and the outer baffle positioned where it should be. Since they are the same material, they will expand/contract together. The bolts should slide back and forth in the slots of the inner baffle when the wood moves. This is just one idea of how the baffle could be attached in a hidden manner and still be removable."Never underestimate that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world; indeed it's the only thing that ever has."
~Margaret MeadComment
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Photos of NCDIYProject.
"Never underestimate that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world; indeed it's the only thing that ever has."
~Margaret MeadComment
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The adhesive used in these speakers was standard construction adhesive.Last edited by cfbuck; 23 February 2018, 22:24 Friday."Never underestimate that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world; indeed it's the only thing that ever has."
~Margaret MeadComment
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Simply genius. You bonded the plywood to plywood (or is that MDF?).
The pictures helped the light bulb come on. I get it.
Did you have any problem with squeeze out when you clamped them up? From the last picture it looks nice and clean.
I am going to pass on the removable baffle for now. But am going to work on your method of solid wood front baffles. Your methodology leaves an interesting detail along the edge.
Does dirt/lint/misc crap get in the space behind the baffle?MarkComment
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The cabinet is MDF. So the BB ply rabbet baffle back is bonded to the MDF which will be no problem as both BB ply and the MDF have the same stability. I used the construction adhesive in this application between the BB and the MDF because a hard bond is fine between these two stable substrates. If the outer baffle was all hardwood I would use NoMoreNails adhesive which does not setup as solidly.
The problem in this instance is gluing the hardwood outer baffle to the BB ply backer with wood glue. The cherry will move horizontally while the BB will remain constrained by the BB crossplys. This is an experiment to see if reducing the hardwood stock to 1/2" thick will allow the survival of the cherry PVA glue bond to BB ply over the repeated movement through the seasons. The relatively large woofer cutout removes a lot of material that would pry on the bond in a good chunk of the baffle real estate on this small speaker. Again, I emphasize that the hardwood is dried, quarter sawn stable cherry on a relatively narrow baffle. If the speaker is 10 or 12 inches wide hardwood, this would be very risky. It is not good woodworking practice to glue 3/4" hardwood to MDF.
When I was attaching the baffle, after squeezing what I thought was enough product on the cabinet, I set the baffle on top gently, pressed the baffle down and then lifted it off. Using a putty knife the adhesive was moved around until the whole baffle surface was covered uniformly, removing any perceived excess. Pressing the baffle against the batten, any excess squeezing out was cleaned from the cutouts and BB ply edge before clamping. The baffle can be removed while the adhesive is soft any number of times to get the adhesive depth right. I want to completely fill the 1/16" gap between the two baffles with adhesive. There should be no room for anything between the inner and outer baffles. This should be a complete seal from cutouts to outer edge otherwise the cabinet will not be the prescribed box volume."Never underestimate that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world; indeed it's the only thing that ever has."
~Margaret MeadComment
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I hope your experiment is successful, and thank you for your detailed explanation. However, baffles have moved to second on the to do list.
I got to the point in the process to check things out. I have cables built and am ready to check out whether the crossovers work. In baseball, 2 out of three is pretty good. But I have an epic failure on the mid range crossover. And 2 out of 3 in speakers is no good. When I hooked one speaker up, I get the woofers and tweeter working. But no sound out of the mid.
Picture one below shows the troubleshooting I am trying. The simple steps are,
1. Switched drivers
2. Cable directly from crossover board to driver
3. Same thing with other speaker. Neither board seems to be working.
4. Tried measuring with a meter. Nothing. I suspect my cheap meter can't measure voltages that low.
5. Checked the circuit diagram to the board several times. Must be I am missing something basic. Input and output backwards? Speaker positive out wrong?
6. Checked the solder joints. They may be amateurish, but connected.
Pictures show the board with the yellow and black output wire attached prior to board installation. I included this picture because the board is easier to see.. The second shows as installed. I used blue/black wire in the actual installation. The speaker wire is input. I know this is hard to see.
All of the wires I did crimp, solder and shrink sleeve.
Can anyone recommend what I can try next? I have never tried to troubleshoot a crossover before.
Thanks,
MarkComment
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Jacket_fan,
Checked the wiring. It looks ok to me, assuming that all the connections are making good contact. You could try measuring the resisters, they can be easily broken. Possibly a component was damaged during assembly. Did both mid crossovers fail to work after assembly? If so that would suggest a wiring error, but I could not see one.
BobComment
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I contacted Mark at Meniscus and he resent the layout. I had the input incorrect. I missed the yellow dot.
The negative input and the positive out need to be at the same node.
Test set up. Does not sound too good all opened up. But working properly. I need to make sure I have the correct polarity at the drivers.
MarkComment
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Hi Mark,
I'm glad to hear you have the crossover wiring issue straightened out. You might check with Mark to see if they take care of the reverse polarity in the crossover so the drivers can be connected to the crossover + to + and - to -.
Just an FYI, raw drivers never sound right until the cabinet is completely sealed up, port installed etc.
JimComment
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Thanks Bob. I appreciate your input. Stupid mistake on my part.
Sorry Jim, my comment was just an aside. I should have stated that the open box made an interesting experiment for sound. Not that I expected good sound quality.
Yes, Meniscus takes into account correct polarity. But my question should have been, can I use a meter to check the voltage at the driver to make sure everything is correct? The tweeter and mid are both reverse polarity correct?MarkComment
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No worries Mark.
You are not the 1st to listen to a speaker before its buttoned up.
Yes, both the AST2560 and C158 are reverse polarity. I'm glad Meniscus is taking care of the polarity in the crossover so it's easy for the end user to hook the drivers up.
You're getting close to playing music!
JimComment
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Everything is double checked and seems to be working. Foam cut and ready. Time to finish the boxes.
MarkComment
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Boxes finished, drivers installed, set up and playing music.
Since we discussed in this thread the use of construction adhesive on the baffles, I got some Liquid Nails and used it on the baffles. Learned some lessons here. The adhesive itself is very viscous and leaves a very thick bond line. It is hard to squeeze out. I had the baffles bending with just two clamps on. I ended up using several to get the squeeze out. So far it is somewhat pliable after 24 hours, so as cfbuck described, this would be good candidate for hardwood to MDF. I hope to find a project to do his design. Thanks again cfbuck.
Another problem I had after binding the baffles. The driver holes in the inner and outer baffles need to line up concentric. I lined up the edges and the holes were off. I tried to sand, but that was taking forever. I ended up getting out the dremel tool. So either make the hole in the inner baffle a litter bigger or take care to line the holes up when you clamp up the outter baffle.
I promised a break in prior to serious listening. Letting them play while I clean up the shop.MarkComment
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Could I ask what is the purpose of cut out (circled in red)? Also, why make holes in the MDF for the tweeter wire when there is already the square cut-out?
Comment
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I'm not Mark but I can answer your question since I designed the cabinets. 1st of all, Mark followed the drawings and pictures I sent him exactly, which I appreciate.
The cutout is access to the wiring once the cabinet is completely glued up should you need it. The tweeter wires could be ran through the cutout. However when Curt was doing development on the crossover, he wasn't sure if the AST2560 would be sealed off or used dipole. It has a piece of felt on the back that can be completely removed for dipole use or left in place for partial dipole or used in a sealed compartment. Curt found the best sound was with the felt in place but not in a sealed compartment.
That's why.
HTH
JimComment
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After extensive listening and some laziness, I'm back ready to attempt to veneer these puppies.
My previous attempts at veneer have had mixed results. The base cabinets present me with a real challenge. I ordered paper backed veneer intending to wrap three sides, side/front/other side, with one piece. I have some FSV adhesive from the last project I did about 2 years ago. The container says shelf life of 6 months after opening. I am well past that. Which led me to consider contact adhesive. But can you do three sides on something this big?
Before I make a big time mistake, what do the veneer experts recommend?
1. What type of adhesive for something as big as the base cabinet?
2. Can I do all three sides at once?
3. What other details am I missing?MarkComment
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Certainly not a veneer expert but you might find this site very useful, https://www.joewoodworker.com/Comment
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Thanks. I have visited the site and watched some videos related. Lots of useful information. He mentions using a 1 inch roller with contact adhesive.
That could take a while for a speaker this this many square inches.
Guess that is where my trepidation comes from. I just want to make sure I do everything I can to get this last part of the process correct.MarkComment
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I'm really enjoying this thread and looking forward to your feedback on the sound. I love Jim and Curt's designs.Comment
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Hi Mark,
I was hoping one of our veneer experts would jump in but here is what I'd suggest to veneer the Bordeaux.
To cover the bass and top cabinet will require a 5'x10' sheet which will work fine but not allow much room for error. I over size the various panel sheets an inch or more if I have excess.
Tapease offers 5'x10' 10 mil paper backed sheets even though they aren't listed on their website. http://www.tapeease.com/10_mil_%20veneer.htm Just send them an email requesting prices of 5'x10' sheets of the variety you want. I'm sure other companies also offer oversized sheets but Tapease offers the best quality at reasonable prices in my experience.
I use Titan DX water based contact cement from Veneer Supplies https://www.veneersupplies.com/produ...ct-Cement.html and have had good luck with it. If you can do it in the garage, solvent based also work well, it's just really smelly. Titan DX is pretty much odorless. I'd also recommend picking up a veneer scraper rather than a roller for laying the veneer on and making a good solid seal. Pick up a 2-3 blade trim bit for your router and use it to trim the excess veneer off. BTW, I always apply a piece of masking tape for the ball bearing of the router bit to ride on which is just enough to keep from trimming to close.
I follow this process for application;
1st - The back of the cabinets.
2nd - The sides and front of the cabinets. In other words, one sheet wrapped around the cabinet. This is the hardest sheet to apply and requires helping hands!
3rd - The top of the cabinets. (optional on the base cabinet if you create the rear grill structure behind the top cabinet)
Everyone has their own finishing methods. Here's mine.
I lightly sand the veneer and then stain it if you want to change or enhance the color. I then use either water based (Target Coatings https://www.targetcoatings.com/ ) shellac or bullseye dewaxed shellac to seal the surface and pop the grain. I use Crystalac grain filler if I want a super smooth final finish with out grain. Finally, I usually spray but it can be brushed on, Crystalac Super Premium top coat. All available from their web store or from Amazon. https://thecrystalacstore.com/
I painted my Bordeaux gloss black, also Crystalac, but I did go through the exercise of figuring out what it would take to veneer them.
I hope that helps and that you're enjoying the Bordeaux!
JimComment
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Hey Jim,
Thanks for the detailed process explanation.
I already have two sheets of 49" x 97" paper backed cherry veneer. And started the cutting process. (Wow, the cost of veneer has gone up since the last time I bought some). I wish I had contacted Tapeease, I am not too pleased with the grain on this veneer. Too many inclusions for my taste. Will do that on the next ones.
You have convinced me to go the contact adhesive route. Although I plan on using the smelly Weldwood stuff. Will do a test, before I start, but that is the plan now.
Jim I have to give you credit. I am painting the bottoms gloss black. Oh my. It shows every imperfection. I have immense respect for those that do the "Piano Black" finish on their speakers!
I also plan to paint the interior portions of the uppers with flat black just for appearance. I do not plan on adding the back structure to the upper cabinet.
I still have the question of is trying to wrap the base cabinets on three side too much to do at one time. Or do one side, smooth the contact adhesive with a roller and/or scraper. Set the speaker on top of that side, and maybe even add weights on top of it and let it dry. Then the front, with the same method. Then the third side.
I went with a 1 inch round over bit to ease the issue of turning the corner with the veneer.
Still trying to decide on what to put on the bottom of the upper cabinets. My thoughts are a layer of felt or plastic/ rubber "feet".
MarkComment
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Finished the first attempt at veneer. I am pleased with the result. The result is some much easier using paper backed veneer rather than thin raw veneer that I had gotten for free.
One of the procedural things I dealt with was the contact adhesive really soaks into the edge cut of the MDF. I ended up putting several coats of contact cement on the porous 3/4 inch edges before it looked like there was enough adhesive. Hopefully the rest of the pieces go as well.
Jim, I'm looking into the crystalac finishing materials you listed. Will give them a try. Still not sure about the final finish I am looking for. I like both a natural cherry finish and the more traditional dark finish as well. On some of the other woodworking projects I did, I incorporated a method i got from Fine Woodworking magazine that used a dye then a stain that really made the grain pop. For the Maggies, there are Mye stands that replace the goofy looking feet. I made something similar out of cherry and did that finish on them. Was pleased with the result. But for these speakers I want to try something different. So will use your Crystalac and see how that works out.MarkComment
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A question about the Crystalac finishes. Do you use a sealer prior to staining? I have read many use a sealer on cherry to prevent blotching. It may just be me, but I have not been very successful trying to get sealers to do much of anything.MarkComment
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Hi Mark,
I've never done anything with cherry so I have no personal experience but most wood working web sites I've read recommend a conditioner for cherry to minimize the issue. The shellac is used after staining to pop the grain and seal the finish. Just about any type of topcoat will stick to shellac. It's pretty simple to use and prevents problems which is why I use it. :W
JimComment
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Just ran into my next problem.
How do you cut the veneer at the driver holes?
The flush trim bit does not work. Maybe a rabbet bit with different bearing diameters?
Sharp knife and sandpaper?
The rectangular hole for the tweeter I could use a square bit and a jig like before, but the circular holes have me stumped for the moment.MarkComment
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Hi Mark,
Here's what I use. https://www.amazon.com/Whiteside-Rou...ide+Flush+Trim Touch the edge up with sand paper after you trim it and it'll come out perfect.
JimComment
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Moving along with the veneer process. Some things I have noticed. I underestimated the amount of contact adhesive needed. I will end up using about a gallon. I was liberal with the amount of adhesive I put on. The cut ends of MDF really soaked up the contact adhesive. Multiple coats required to get to a tacky feel to the surface.
Care also needs to be taken when positioning the base module to the veneer after you have the contact adhesive ready. Those boxes are heavy... I put pencil lines to help guide the placement.MarkComment
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The veneer is on. I surprised myself with how well the contact cement worked. My problem came with sanding. I sanded through the veneer in a few places. I had some places where the contact adhesive squeezed out and I was sanding to get the adhesive off and took too much material off. It looked like I was getting the adhesive off, but was just taking off more wood. I ended up adding another layer of veneer. Nothing less than 220 grit after that...
Jim, the bit you recommended to cut out the driver holes worked great. Just like you said, cut the hole, touch up with sandpaper, and it looks almost professional. Thanks for sharing that one. I had not used a 1/4 in. shank in the router, and spent a while looking around the shop to find it.
For anyone building these, or any other speaker, the bit is cheap and is easily worth having for any speaker project.
And be careful sanding around the corners.
MarkComment
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Excellent! :T
JimComment
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That's a total bummer on the sanding, but you did a nice job with the veneer otherwise. What was the mil of the paperbacked veneer?
I've always used tight bond to apply my veneer, but may try contact cement on my next speakers since I hear a lot of people use that. I veneered my seos 12's TD12M's with 20 mil and the 3/4 round-overs were sketchy. I thought the veneer was going to crack, but it didn't.Comment
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Jim, I finally finished.
Overall, this was a great project. Got to use all the tools in the shop. Gained knowledge on crossovers, got better at soldering, learned from my mistakes and ended up with a decent looking and sounding set of speakers.
One mistake I made was not aligning the grain between the upper and lower cabinets. Another is that one of the upper cabinets is not perfectly square and does not have all three sides line up with the lower cabinet. Which when I think about it, I should not have expected all to be perfectly square without a jig of some kind. I have also decided that natural cheery is not my favorite finish. I will do something different on the next project. I prefer the finish I put on the Maggie stands that I built which you can see in the picture below. A lesson learned on the finish was I used 800 grit sandpaper and it worked well getting the "nits" off. Following up with buffing compound brought out the gloss finish. The 800 grit was not too abrasive or too fine.
Next I will pull out the switch box and start another comparison test with the Maggies.
I appreciate all the coaching along the way. This was a fun project.
Here are a couple of glamour shots (or whatever you call them) of the finished speakers.
MarkComment
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Hi Mark,
They look great to me! Very, very pretty! :T
I'm looking forward to more feedback after some serious listening.
A beautiful pair of speakers! Awesome job!
JimComment
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Wow! I'd love to hear (feel) the difference between these and their Anthology counterparts. I love blowing friends' minds with the output of those Daytons.
Sent from my SM-G955U using TapatalkComment
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Nice speakers, they look great! Also, I love your choice of music! I was just listening to Chet and Tommy Emmanuel take over the world
.
Comment
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Great job. Congrats on the build and looking forward to your feedback.
I'm actively trying to convince my wife to let me build these. Might take a few more months.Comment
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@jacket_fan - Those look fantastic.0 Congratulations!Comment
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Here is a short review of the demo I completed with the Bordeaux and the old Maggies.
The only way I can do a realistic comparison is using a switch box. My sonic memory is not as acute as others. Unless I can switch speakers, rewind a passage, adjust the volume level, and replay the same passage, I cannot really compare speakers.
I also got the help from my musician son to help out. I trust his evaluation. He has quite a bit of experience with percussion and plays a multitude of instruments. I conducted a blind test with him. He did not know which speakers were playing, but was able to switch between speakers.
Some agreed upon conclusions were first and foremost that the speakers “energized the room” differently. The Maggies had more depth to the music; The Bordeaux had a different signature with cymbals and rides,
The consensus was that both sets of speakers sound great, but with definite sonic personalities.
As an overall summary of the Bordeauxs. Very accurate mid and upper treble, with strong low frequency response. They seem to be very easy to drive and like would pair well with tube amps. If used in a home theater for fronts, would be hard to beat.
Highly recommended for anyone thinking of building speakers. The plans are easy to follow, the simplicity of getting a kit from Meniscus, and the versatility of two cabinets per speaker make them an easy build.MarkComment
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Thanks for the review Mark. Curt and I appreciate the feedback! :T
JimComment
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Hello All,
I have read a number of build threads and it inspired me to take the plunge and see if I could build out a home theater room that could also play great sounding music of all styles. I am appreciative of the many email responses I have gotten from both Jim Holtz and Curt Campbell.... -
I just recently finished building the Bordeaux speaker kit by Jim Holt and Curt Campbell. It is a great kit with a great set of plans. Very refined and thorough. Jim was available to answer questions and took the time to Email me information as well as pictures of his build process.
They... -
Just a heads up that between Curt and Efalegalo they have come up with a modification to the original crossover that works better with the new production AST2560's currently shipping. Meniscus has also committed to testing every AST2560 driver ordered to assure the correct crossover parts are included... -
Hi All,
I just recently completed my build of The Bordeaux and needed help with crossover issue I'm having.
See attached picture of the frequency response. I have a massive dip in the 1.25Khz - 4.0Khz range.
I've checked the crossover a 100x.
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Hi All
Someone please give me some advice please - I'm planning a build for this spring / summer, and its going to be either the bordeaux or the statement 2, full LCR.
In the past I built a Full size statement LCR. i enjoyed the build and loved the speakers. quite honestly, they...
Comment