Horio's Wavecor Ardent Build

[TEK]

TEK, They are all unique.

Yes, they are - and I love watching them coming to life!

[Renron]

Yes, they are - and I love watching them coming to life!

+1 agree

[ergo]

I wonder if anyone (Jon) knows approx how many are there in the world. I'd guess 10+ pairs at least ?

And I do agree these build threads are very fun to watch and learn as everyone has slight different way to reach a same/similar goal.

[TEK]

I wonder about that as well!
From comments on some other designs there seems to be quite many that build speakers, but never post any information about them actually doing it.

There are quite many listed in the official thread, so that gives a hint about the public known builds.
But how many have buildt them without sharing the story?

[Horio]

It would be great to put a link to all of the Wavecor Ardent build threads in one of the first few posts in the main Wavecor thread for others quick reference.

[JonMarsh]

It would be great to put a link to all of the Wavecor Ardent build threads in one of the first few posts in the main Wavecor thread for others quick reference.

I'll see if I can't address that sometime in the near future...

[Horio]

Thanks Jon!

[flamethrower1]

Jon, make sure they are they are listed as being TS or CNC because we all know that that is a big difference, right

[Renron]

Jon, make sure they are they are listed as being TS or CNC because we all know that that is a big difference, right

F1, Only in build difficulty (experience and tools) not in quality of final construction.

Ron

[TEK]

Jon, make sure they are they are listed as being TS or CNC because we all know that that is a big difference, right

Not nessesarly in the result, for me this is less interesting.
But of course, it is always interesting to know the tools used. If it was CNC’ed, table saw, plunge saw, hand router or other.
Also, material, like mdf vs bambu vs birch as well as finish is interesting - but to keep it managable I would suggest just going with:
- who
- when
- if existing, link to build thread

[flamethrower1]

Not nessesarly in the result, for me this is less interesting.
But of course, it is always interesting to know the tools used. If it was CNC’ed, table saw, plunge saw, hand router or other.
Also, material, like mdf vs bambu vs birch as well as finish is interesting - but to keep it managable I would suggest just going with:
- who
- when
- if existing, link to build thread

EXACTLY.
One would hope that the mentality of putting a label on something that is really not any different than something else would have died out after they found those charred remains in Berlin back in the fortys

[Horio]

I'm going to order some acousta stuff to fill the woofer chamber. Anyone remember how much damping material you used for the woofers. I also have some of the 10mm thick felt left over. Any benefit to putting some of it in the woofer chamber? I have enough for maybe the back wall.

Thanks!

[JonMarsh]

I'm going to order some acousta stuff to fill the woofer chamber. Anyone remember how much damping material you used for the woofers. I also have some of the 10mm thick felt left over. Any benefit to putting some of it in the woofer chamber? I have enough for maybe the back wall.

Thanks!

Felt always helps on the walls, because that's where pressure is highest and velocity is lowest.

As regards stuffing, I prefer my own chicken sausage + onions and sage dressing at Thanksgiving, but for LF cabinet, most folks don't realize that more is better up to quite a significant amount. What that practically means is that if you run an impedance sweep empty, the fairly ideal thing is to keep adding stuffing and testing until the Fs stops dropping and starts going back up. Then back off. That will give you the best extension and damping.

Yeah, a lot of folks won't have the test capability.

One of the first reviews on PE says "can never have too much stuffing" and he's pretty close to correct.

Now, this is NOT the stuff to use for a ported bass reflex system. This is best for sealed systems, and while I would recommend lofting just a little bit before installing in your Ardents, expect to be packing things fairly full. I don't remember what the 5 lB bag looks like, and it didn't really occur to me to take pictures of the stuffing per se and document that, but I have a one of the base open that may give you an idea...





This is a view of the bottom before wiring up the crossover base. The blue cables are Cardas Coax speaker cable, for the midrange and tweeter.

[cochinada]

...but for LF cabinet, most folks don't realize that more is better up to quite a significant amount. What that practically means is that if you run an impedance sweep empty, the fairly ideal thing is to keep adding stuffing and testing until the Fs stops dropping and starts going back up. Then back off. That will give you the best extension and damping

I certainly didn't know this. Thanks for the lesson!

[Horio]

Jon, thanks for the very helpful info! I'm going to go with the 5 lb bag of acousta-stuf. Is any of this fill material needed in the mid chamber as well?

Thanks!

[JonMarsh]

Yes, same concept and principal. I had some long fiber wool on hand used that in my mid chambers, but the Acousta Stuff will work fine.

[Horio]

5 lbs of Acousta-Fil and some 12ga speaker wire for the wavecor woofers now ordered from Parts Express.

For those of you who used magnets to attach the grills, what size did you go with? I'm looking at the rare earth magnet kits from Lee Valley (maybe the 3/8 or 1/2 sets). They come with cups for mounting on one side (and supposedly to help improve the magnetic strength), and washers for the other side. I'm debating if I should use the washers on the grill side, or magnets on both sides. I've read using magnets on both sides helps keep the grills centered better.

You guys have any recommendations?

http://www.leevalley.com/us/hardware/page.aspx?p=58750&cat=42363,42348&ap=1

[Steve Manning]

5 lbs of Acousta-Fil and some 12ga speaker wire for the wavecor woofers now ordered from Parts Express.

For those of you who used magnets to attach the grills, what size did you go with? I'm looking at the rare earth magnet kits from Lee Valley (maybe the 3/8 or 1/2 sets). They come with cups for mounting on one side (and supposedly to help improve the magnetic strength), and washers for the other side. I'm debating if I should use the washers on the grill side, or magnets on both sides. I've read using magnets on both sides helps keep the grills centered better.

You guys have any recommendations?

http://www.leevalley.com/us/hardware...363,42348&ap=1

Decided on grills after all ..... we should have buried some magnets in the baffles just in case. Check this place out for magnets, if they don't have what you want your in trouble. https://totalelement.com/

[Renron]

Yes, same concept and principal. I had some long fiber wool on hand used that in my mid chambers, but the Acousta Stuff will work fine.

Are you sure that's not Husky hair? Might work just as well, it's got that "Je ne sais quoi" crimp to the hair. (semi serious)

Steve, More magnets are better. I used 7, 3/8" N42 and it is just enough I wish I had used 2 more. In this case more REALLY IS better.
Ron

[Steve Manning]

Are you sure that's not Husky hair? Might work just as well, it's got that "Je ne sais quoi" crimp to the hair. (semi serious)

Steve, More magnets are better. I used 7, 3/8" N42 and it is just enough I wish I had used 2 more. In this case more REALLY IS better.
Ron

Hey Ron,

I went with 7 locations on Danny's grills, same size as you, though the ones I put inside the baffles I doubled up. No issues with them staying in place.

[JonMarsh]

I lived dangerously and only have 5, but I fully agree 7 are justified.

Oh, and Ron, we decided Siberian Husky Hair was only needed if you were really into romantic ballads of the North and Russian Symphonies. But you know, covering the bases isn't a bad idea...

(BTW, new GF is from Siberia- Khabarovsk- sent both of her daughters over here to Seattle for University some time ago... she's only been here six years. English is a work in progress, but her Russian and German are killer... )

Life is strange...

[Renron]

Damn Doc, I'm so happy for you. That's awesome. You deserve all the happiness that you give to us, only doubled!
Easy on the Vodka, she'll likely drink you right under the table!
Does she like motorcycles too?
Ron

[JonMarsh]

Nah, she doesn't like motorcycles, or Vodka, but does fancy a good Chardonnay.

She says she doesn't like sports cars like my NSX, too low to the ground, but she drives her Lexus RX350 like it was one?

go figure... :roll:

[Horio]

For the grills, I'm thinking of using something a bit more robust than MDF for durability. With the thin sections of grill frame material next to the woofers, they look awfully fragile.

One thought was using some 3/8 inch thick phenolic. Should be more tough from a flexural standpoint, and thus more durable long term. I've never worked with phenolic before. My understanding is it machines well but does wear on your blades and bits more.

Have any of you worked with phenolic? Is this overkill or do you another material you'd recommend?

https://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=121121

[JonMarsh]

I'm a closet fan of phenolic, use it almost exclusively for my crossover boards and occasionally other structural stuff. Use sharp bits and slow feeds and you shouldn't have any problems...

For the grilles, used HDF, not MDF.

I just bookmarked your link. Thanks!

[Horio]

Thanks Jon. I might give phenolic a try for my grills unless someone else chimes in with a good reason not to.

McMaster Carr also sells small to mid sized pieces of phenolic as well. There are a bunch of different grades and the prices vary substantially. From what I can tell, phenolic Grade X or XX should do the trick and be more economical.

https://www.mcmaster.com/phenolic-sheets

[TEK]

I made my grills out of MDF and then spray-painted them.
Paint (and if you like, a layer of epoxy first) actually adds guite a bit of hardness to thin MDF.
I have had no issues with my grills what-so-ever.

So, can you make the grills from harder/more durable material then MDF? Sure you can!
Do you need do? Not as far as I can tell.

But your need may be different from mine. If you are going to add/remove the grills for every listening session, you will have a different usage then me (ps: the ardents are designed to be used with the grills on)

[cochinada]

Guys, when you talk about these materials fenolic or MDF for the grills you are talking about just the frame, right? I imagine you all use some kind of fabric probably stapled to it...

[Horio]

Guys, when you talk about these materials fenolic or MDF for the grills you are talking about just the frame, right? I imagine you all use some kind of fabric probably stapled to it...

That's correct. I'm planning to follow the same grill layout as Dar/Ben (drawings from the original thread). I would paint the frames black, add the felt to control diffraction, and wrap then in speaker fabric.

I've been wanting to try making something out of phenolic and was thinking the grill frames would be a good opportunity.

[TEK]

Guys, when you talk about these materials fenolic or MDF for the grills you are talking about just the frame, right? I imagine you all use some kind of fabric probably stapled to it...

Yes...
I (based on an advice from someone) attached the grill fabric by routing a recess on the back of the grill, wrap the fabric over, and then press rope into the recess to lock the fabric to the grill.

Quite some discussions and info here:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?41695-My-Wavecor-Ardent-with-center-build&p=602765&viewfull=1#post602765

(It seems to be a video link to a grill fastened with magnets a few post after)
I think the discussion starts at post 208 if you want all the details...

[TEK]

I've been wanting to try making something out of phenolic and was thinking the grill frames would be a good opportunity.

Ahh, that’s something else!
Go ahead, test it out and share the lessons you learn with the rest of us :P

[Steve Manning]

Window screen spline from Lowes works great ......I used it for Danny's grills.





As an FYI, make sure you stay on top of dust collection, that stuff can be worse on your lungs than mdf.

[Renron]

Horio,
How will you attach the cloth to Phenolic material? Route the same style spline? I used MDF and it was substantial enough for it's task. .060 window screen spline worked perfectly.
Nice to see your progress, I'm enjoying your work very much.
Ron

[Horio]

Horio,
How will you attach the cloth to Phenolic material? Route the same style spline? I used MDF and it was substantial enough for it's task. .060 window screen spline worked perfectly.
Nice to see your progress, I'm enjoying your work very much.
Ron

Ron,

I was planning to cut a 3/16" wide groove per Ben/Dar's grill drawing, and use a spline to secure the speaker fabric. Did you mean to say 0.160 window screen spline? 0.060 seems too small for a 3/16" slot.

[Horio]

Decided on grills after all ..... we should have buried some magnets in the baffles just in case. Check this place out for magnets, if they don't have what you want your in trouble. https://totalelement.com/

Great link Steve, thanks! Think I'll pick up a couple packs for 3/8" dia x 1/4" thick magnets from them, and use 7 pairs per grill.

https://totalelement.com/collections/all-discs/products/3-8-x-1-4-inch-neodymium-rare-earth-disc-magnets-n42-24-pack

[Renron]

Horio, I've looked all over and cannot find the spline I used even thou I saw it last week. Getting old I guess.
You must be correct because I used a 3/16" plow bit and Parts Express HQ thick black cloth.

On the magnets, pair them up and mark them so they are axially aligned as well as face to face. I re-read my thread and I used 5x10 mm n50 epoxied under the veneer. 7 pair per speaker and I wish I had used 9 pair instead. They don't fall off but I wish they were stronger.

Enjoying your progress.
Ron

[TEK]

If I recall correctly I bought the line first and then tested different size router bits until I found one that gave the result I was looking for.

I also had 5 mounting points for the magnets.
The grill just *smack* on the speaker, and as long as you remove it by dragging it sideways (instead of trying to drag it directly out) it is easy to remove as well.
I have a little video of it in action:

http://1drv.ms/1DT0QQS

[Horio]

Thanks Ron and Tek for the magnet information and video.

How much of a gap did you provide between the magnets on the speaker and the grill? Was it just the thickness of the veneer? I was thinking of mounting the magnets on the grill flush (speaker side), and then recessing the magnets slightly in the speakers.

[Horio]

A New Toy

Didn't have time last weekend to work on the speakers, but I did receive a nice belated birthday gift! I think I have a Festool problem...

Should come in handy for doing a bit of polishing of the finish topcoat.

[Steve Manning]

Nice ...

[JonMarsh]

Very... I have one Festool, which is also an orbital sander; sadly, I haven't had a chance to use it though I've had it several years now- got it on a special buy just as things started coming really unglued regarding the personal life.

[TEK]

Thanks Ron and Tek for the magnet information and video.

How much of a gap did you provide between the magnets on the speaker and the grill? Was it just the thickness of the veneer? I was thinking of mounting the magnets on the grill flush (speaker side), and then recessing the magnets slightly in the speakers.

As close as possible, so I had just the veneer (on the speaker) and a very thin layer of mdf (on the grill) between.

[Steve Manning]

Look Who's Getting Grills ....

Greg asked me to post a few pictures of the Ardent grills he's having me build for him, so here we go.

[Horio]

Thanks Steve! Everytime I see your new CNC, I get a bit drooly...

Looks like the CNC made quick work out if the grills. I definitely know who to call if I ever break one by accident.

[Scottg]

-excellent use of CNC. 8)