Ante's Statement II build Journey

[Ante]

Question...

How mouch stuffing should I use, and where is the best place to put it?

In the mid speaker it was described in the manual, I placed were you see in the picture. Is this to much? If I use this much I onely got stuffing for one speaker.

It might be the curved sides that requiers more..

But I dont want to use to much..

[Jim Holtz]

We need to see a picture from the front looking into the woofer cut outs. Do hold the foam back from the back of the RS225 woofers about 1 1/2 - 2". What is the depth of the cabinet?

Jim

[JoeAngelicchio]

WOW!!!! Looks great!!!

[Ante]

Hi Jim

The inner debth of the cabinet is 18"

Was this what you needed to see?

Ante

[Ante]

Sorry for asking hope its not too moch

Jim: When you say "hold the foam back from the back of the RS225 woofers about 1 1/2 - 2"." You mean the back of the magnet, right? like shown in yellow in the picture.
I plan on stuff chamber # 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12. I might do 13 and 14 as well. that wil make it come below the woofers. ( shown in picture ) And the top. But this is a guess from my part. Do correct me
If needed Ill have to get more stuffing, but I think the onely around localy are 1" thick.



Ante

[Pknaz]

Those look fantastic! Seeing your project makes me want to build another set of statements that are curved!

I'd line sections 7-15 with foam. I don't think sections 1-6 will have much impact on the sound, but it won't hurt anything if you wanted to line those as well. I'd leave section 16 open. if you wanted to add a bit of stuffing, I'd say 13,14,15 would be good, again, leaving 16 open. Just my $0.02!

Definitely leave section 4 open, as you'll want to keep the foam and stuffing clear of the heat-sink on the tweeter.

[Ante]

Thank you Ive mange to get the 2" foam in section 7-15. And pulled it back 2" from the back of the woofers in section 8-10-12 and 14.

Could to much have a negative effect? Does it affect the internal volume in any way?
Lots of questions pops up when working this projekt

[Pknaz]

Actually, I'd line section 16 with foam, including the inside of the front baffle directly in front of the port opening, but keep at least 3-4" surrounding the port opening clear of foam and stuffing.

[Jim Holtz]

Sorry, I've been out all day. Here's my suggestion due to the different shape of the cabinet. I would line the front compartment behind the RS225's with the foam and also place foam on the vertical center brace leaving the holes open. I'd also line the front compartment below the bottom RS225. That should leave you with plenty of foam for both speakers. Then, go to a local hobby shop or upholstery shop and buy a few bags of poly fill and moderately (not wadded) stuff the back of the cabinet behind the center vertical brace with the poly fill. be sure to leave the holes open in the brace and have an unobstructed path to the port.

Now, lets talk about cabinet depth. The actual internal depth of the Statements cabinet as designed is 14 1/2". Curt has suggested varying the mid tunnel depth no more than +/- 10% which works out to be about 1 1/2". With your internal depth of 18" you are over the recommended maximum by 2". I've been thinking about this and you should be able to compensate for the additional length by varying the depth of the foam lining in the mid tunnels. This will be the DIY part as you will have to adjust it by ear once you have them set up and broken in (about 20 hours) to achieve the balance between the mids and woofers. The changes will be subtle but will make a difference.

HTH

Jim

[Ante]

Hi

Did you meen like this Jim?


I bought sheep wool and have enogh to fill whatever I wisch.. I think I bought too much
Ive lined the front compartment behind the RS225's with foam (2") and also placed foam on the vertical center brace (1") leaving the holes open. Ive also lined the front compartment below the bottom RS225 with foam (2")


Ive stuffed (lightly) the back of the cabinet behind the center vertical brace with the sheep wool.


I alsow have enough foam (2") to line it like Pknaz suggested, like this.
Im practikly swiming in foam and wool right now... Its pretty warm thoug


Ive heard that too moch is bad. And I do not want to overdo this so the stuffing and foming part so that it wil have a negative effect.
But Ive lerned that asking where to put it and how mouch to use is like asking what colour do you like best..
I have to experiment a bit with the fom in the mid tunnels. the lenght was a compromise to the curved side an hight, so I have to deal with the consequences

[Renron]

Fantastic build Ante. You have been given great advice, they know from experience what works well. Thank you for all the pictures they are fun to look at.
You're going to be SO happy with these speakers. The Curve looks great too. Nice work!
Ron

[Ante]

Thank you Ron And thank you agian for intrudusing me to theese fantastic people. I could not have done this without you all Thank you.
If you dont mind Ill ceep the pictures and questions comming

[Jim Holtz]

Yep, thats what I'm talking about. It's hard to tell by looking at pictures but light to medium stuffing would be best. If you over stuff, it kills the bass a bit.

Jim

[Ante]

Is it ok ut line the back Chambers as wel , and then stuff them with wool, as show in the last picture or Should I onely stuff it with wool? Im just afraid og using to much foam at the same time Am afraid of using to lite. .

[Jim Holtz]

There isn't any reason to line the back chambers with foam. Light to medium stuffing with the poly fill is all that is needed. The whole purpose of lining/stuffing the woofer compartments is to kill reflected soundwaves and keep them from bouncing into the back side of the driver cone.

No need to stress over this part of the build. No rocket science involved, just common sense.

Jim

[Ante]

Thanks Jim your the best

[Renron]

I wish I could be there when you hear how great these sound for the first time. You're going to have a huge smile that lasts for several minutes.
You're doing a fantastic job. Congratulations. Keep the pictures coming!
Ron

[Ante]

Thank you. Ive been smiling sinse I startet this bild

I hope I dont have to hig expections fore them. They look awsome and they have to sound better then the XTZ tower Im playing now ore else Im going to blow them up

[Renron]

Weeeeee

Im going to blow them up

Take lots of pictures

[theSven]

OK from another post you made on the forum using the phrase shit snacks... Now seeing this post! Love ARCHER!!

[DigitalMaven]

Ante... Just started watching your build...Are you going to line the Mid ranges with wool felt? Also, I'm not sure how the air flow down to your port from your woofers is working. I've found that for ported enclosures maybe having 1/2 inch flat foam lining the way down there versus having wool behind the woofers is best. Even having a small amount of flat foam up to your woofers (where you've cut them out due to the large pyramid wedges) might be best but still far enough away so as not to reflect back out through the woofers. Normally in other speaker designs you would not want to have large braces right behind the speakers but since these are not mid range frequencies I don't think it will have a big impact on your design. Others may have been giving you a hard time in the beginning but half of speaker building is designing the enclosure and monitoring the air flow and reflections from the back wave from your speakers. Cheers...

[flamethrower1]

Nice work Anti, impressive

[Ante]

Thank you all Its a very fun prosess

DigitalMaven : I wil use a 1" thick foam that came with the kit fore the mid tunels, No wool in the tunels, onely foam. Sinse the lenght of the tunels are a bit longer than the original enclouser I have to try different amount in theese to get the best effect.
The Port is placed under the lower woofer and is 3" thick and about 4" long. The flares Im not sure of the dimentions, but theese are alsow delivered With the kit so it sholud be fine.
The braces in the back of the woofers are to Lock them to the baffel so there is no vibrations. Ive picked this up when looking into a nother design. (Thor / Seas)
Im not sure what you mean by the lining With foam, But I have pre cut foam (2") to fit all the lower Chambers ( shown in last Picture in my post #50) But as Jim sayd there is no need fore the ones in the back of the bracing. So I proberly be lining like it is shown in the first Picture in my post #50 and lightly fill the back of the bracing With wool botom to top.

Wel I like to learn the hard way, as long as Im not affending enybody I dont mind beeing told what to do and what I do wrong Thats why Im here, to learn and hopefylly learn enogh to bilt a spaeker that Im happy With.
I have never done this before, and Ive tryed some of the calkulators fore resonans, Waves, Vas, frequenses.. and I dont understand a thing So Im very happy that Im well guided from you all good peaple. Thank You

Jim: Im not sure If I understood you right.. Would lining the back of the enclouser like shown in last Picture in post #50 have a negative effect? Ore was it just extra work? The parts are alredy cut and adapted to the Chambers so there is no extra work on my part.
What Im not shure of is, wil lining (2" foam) the cahambers behind the mid brasing in addition to the front chambers (as you recomended) have a negative impact on the preformance?

Hopefully we will soon tart making the sides There wil be two layers of 6mm bjork plywood, and the top layer is going to be 6mm MDF, as in the rest, exsept the baffel. It wil be eseyer to get a good finich for painting.
I think its going to be white

Happy eastern

Ante

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Ante,

I think stuffing the back chambers as the pictures in post #50 show is fine. Stuffing is more effective at killing reflections than foam is. I'd consider that part of the project done.

Jim

[Renron]

Digital Maven,
Could you please explain how you "monitor the air flow"? I have used anemometers for work and am familiar with their usage.
Also, I think (I certainly could be wrong) 1/2" of foam is almost meaningless for backwave suppression.
Ron

[Jim Holtz]

You are absolutely correct Ron. :T

Jim

[Ante]

That was what I thought you ment and that the way its going to be

[DigitalMaven]

Digital Maven,
Could you please explain how you "monitor the air flow"? I have used anemometers for work and am familiar with their usage.
Also, I think (I certainly could be wrong) 1/2" of foam is almost meaningless for backwave suppression.
Ron

Depends on what your trying to do. If your trying to kill the back wave or guide it smoothly towards a port or transmission line like speaker. That's why I was asking ante what he was using for the mid range. I'm currently using 1/2 inch flat foam in a .5 cubic foot bookshelf. Started out playing with varying levels of wool fill and found that only a little over the crossovers and just the flat 1/2 inch foam over the walls was best. This allowed the most airflow behind the drivers and a clear path to the port without back waving sound out through the mid-base.

[DigitalMaven]

Digital Maven,
Could you please explain how you "monitor the air flow"? I have used anemometers for work and am familiar with their usage.
Also, I think (I certainly could be wrong) 1/2" of foam is almost meaningless for backwave suppression.
Ron

Not sure why you used this term...this is what I said "Also, I'm not sure how the air flow down to your port from your woofers is working." I'm really not monitoring anything... :W

[BobEllis]

Perhaps because you said you were monitoring the airflow.

... but half of speaker building is designing the enclosure and monitoring the air flow and reflections from the back wave from your speakers. Cheers...

[Renron]

DigitalMaven.
Not trying to be persnickety here, if 1/2" foam works well for you then great. Most of us who also have lots of experience with speaker building and back wave thru cone reflections have different results. It could also be different if the front and back walls of the cabinets are not parallel. Which may be the case of which you speak. Is your 1/2" foam closed or open cell?
Working with mold remediation in residences I have to monitor air flow (anemometers) and am always open to new ideas and new technologies. Why I asked.
Ron

[DigitalMaven]

DigitalMaven.
Not trying to be persnickety here, if 1/2" foam works well for you then great. Most of us who also have lots of experience with speaker building and back wave thru cone reflections have different results. It could also be different if the front and back walls of the cabinets are not parallel. Which may be the case of which you speak. Is your 1/2" foam closed or open cell?
Working with mold remediation in residences I have to monitor air flow (anemometers) and am always open to new ideas and new technologies. Why I asked.
Ron

With a small .5 cubic foot ported enclosure you really don't want anything more than a 1/2 inch foam. I purchased the foam sheet from Madisound so I'll have to get back to you on the acoustic specs. The 1/2 inch foam works best because your not mucking up the back wave from your small two way speakers as even that will encroach into your cabinet up to an inch on the sides and an inch on the top and back. I leave the bottom without foam for my crossover and a small amount of wool stuffing over the crossover. It leaves plenty of room around the back of the speaker to eliminate mucking up the mid-range frequencies. If it was a larger speaker with a wider baffle I would consider using something else thicker. But to keep it simple I usually use a combo of half inch foam and a small amount of natural wool stuffing. I hope this gives you an insight into my thinking.

Foam is actually 5/8 inch https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...27-x-42-x-5/8/

[Ante]

Littel uppdate

I think They look smaler now that the first layer is on. Looking good

[DigitalMaven]

Ante...are those mid-ranges going to be stuffed with something or are they going to be left open? If they are left open then your speakers might sound a little bright if they're close to a wall. Most transmission line type speakers have wool felt lining.

[Ante]

Hi
Im going to use 1" foam in the tubes

[Renron]

Looking great Ante. I'm excited for you / with you. Keep the pictures coming!
Ron

[Jim Holtz]

Ante...are those mid-ranges going to be stuffed with something or are they going to be left open? If they are left open then your speakers might sound a little bright if they're close to a wall. Most transmission line type speakers have wool felt lining.

The Statements series were introduced in 2007. Since then something in excess of 2000 pairs of Statements models, Finalists and Anthology's have been built around the world. Curt has kept "loose" track and based on emails asking for help, they have been built on all except one continent. So, that said, this has always been a free design for personal use. There are dozens of build threads here on HT Guide with extensive build information. HERE is a link to the fully documented designs Curt and I have collaborated on plus several others. Kits are also available through Meniscus that make the ordering easier.

Every design is based on extensive measurements and careful voicing to get the most realistic and natural sound possible from the drivers used. I'm not dissing any of your suggestions but just trying to clarify that these are speakers that have extensive design development before they're offered to the DIY community.

HTH

Jim

[DigitalMaven]

The Statements series were introduced in 2007. Since then something in excess of 2000 pairs of Statements models, Finalists and Anthology's have been built around the world. Curt has kept "loose" track and based on emails asking for help, they have been built on all except one continent. So, that said, this has always been a free design for personal use. There are dozens of build threads here on HT Guide with extensive build information. HERE is a link to the fully documented designs Curt and I have collaborated on plus several others. Kits are also available through Meniscus that make the ordering easier.

Every design is based on extensive measurements and careful voicing to get the most realistic and natural sound possible from the drivers used. I'm not dissing any of your suggestions but just trying to clarify that these are speakers that have extensive design development before they're offered to the DIY community.

HTH

Jim

None really taken...but I've seen all kinds of modifications and I can't keep track of all builds. People use all kinds of different types of materials including pvc pipes to paper tubes to wood square transmission lines. The problem with using 1 inch foam is the amount of space encroaching into the actual mid-range chamber...your taking 2 inches out(In a circular tube)....I can effectively change how my own speakers sound in my setup by just moving my speakers back to front by half an inch...now I know that not all situations are this sensitive but depending on where the final product is going to be placed in a room can affect the base extremely and the rear reflections through the transmission lines ...I'm not trying to change your design or anything as others making the builds are doing that in spades...Most historical transmission lines use wool felt and small amounts of wool stuffing to fine tune the final output.

[Renron]

I can effectively change how my own speakers sound in my setup by just moving my speakers back to front by half an inch.....Most historical transmission lines use wool felt and small amounts of wool stuffing to fine tune the final output.

Whoa, Platinum ears!

Please provide examples of "Most historical transmission lines". What the hell does that even mean???
Sounds like Danielwritesbac.

Ron

[DigitalMaven]

Whoa, Platinum ears!

Please provide examples of "Most historical transmission lines". What the hell does that even mean???
Sounds like Danielwritesbac.

Ron

It means that wool felt instead of foam allow the sound waves to move through the Transmission line faster and maybe increases the lower frequencies....the reason for the small changes in speaker placement that cause big sound changes are due to the poor situation in which I have to place my speakers. Ron give me a detailed explanation of what is actually going on with holtz's design in this case. It seems you know everything there is about transmission lines or open backed speaker setups. Whos this danielwrites back?

[Jim Holtz]

It means that wool felt instead of foam allow the sound waves to move through the Transmission line faster and maybe increases the lower frequencies....the reason for the small changes in speaker placement that cause big sound changes are due to the poor situation in which I have to place my speakers. Ron give me a detailed explanation of what is actually going on with holtz's design in this case. It seems you know everything there is about transmission lines or open backed speaker setups. Whos this danielwrites back?

The mids are the only part of the design that is open back or could be called a transmission line. The crossover is about 400 Hz so low frequencies are handled by the woofer section which is a conventional ported cabinet design. So, low frequencies aren't a consideration for the mids.

Curt is the person that did all the crossover design and tested with measurements lots of different combinations before finding the one inch foam in the mid tunnels worked the best for this application. the amount of attenuation is adjustable based on how far up the tunnel its placed. If you have a dead room, it'll require less, if the room is live, it'll take more. Through measurements, it was determined that a 45 degree bevel on the foam at the driver end smoothed the transition of the sound waves.

I wasn't trying to discourage you from throwing out ideas, but was trying to tell you this is a very mature design that was the basis of all the other Statements models, Finalists and Anthology's. Curt tried just about every combination when he arrived at the suggested build specs.

BTW, we've always said the Statements mid tunnels should be either fabricated out of mdf in a 5" configuration or 5" PVC if you can find it. 6" isn't a good fit for this size of driver. The Finalists and Anthology's use larger mid drivers so 6" PVC works great for it.

If you want to improve on the design, build it the way you think it should be done and bring it to a DIY event for an old fashioned shoot out.

Jim

[DigitalMaven]

The mids are the only part of the design that is open back or could be called a transmission line. The crossover is about 400 Hz so low frequencies are handled by the woofer section which is a conventional ported cabinet design. So, low frequencies aren't a consideration for the mids.

Curt is the person that did all the crossover design and tested with measurements lots of different combinations before finding the one inch foam in the mid tunnels worked the best for this application. the amount of attenuation is adjustable based on how far up the tunnel its placed. If you have a dead room, it'll require less, if the room is live, it'll take more. Through measurements, it was determined that a 45 degree bevel on the foam at the driver end smoothed the transition of the sound waves.

I wasn't trying to discourage you from throwing out ideas, but was trying to tell you this is a very mature design that was the basis of all the other Statements models, Finalists and Anthology's. Curt tried just about every combination when he arrived at the suggested build specs.

BTW, we've always said the Statements mid tunnels should be either fabricated out of mdf in a 5" configuration or 5" PVC if you can find it. 6" isn't a good fit for this size of driver. The Finalists and Anthology's use larger mid drivers so 6" PVC works great for it.

If you want to improve on the design, build it the way you think it should be done and bring it to a DIY event for an old fashioned shoot out.

Jim

Thanks Jim,

I knew it had to be tapered somewhere behind the mid-ranges so as not to create too much of a back wave. Rather than build your design I might use aspects of what you've learned on other designs using the mid-range pipes. Have you guys tried using different thicknesses of wool felt? Or is that just cost prohibitive and using 1 inch foam the best and most economical? It looks like you take it down from 5 inches to sort of a 3 inch diameter wide foam pipe. I guess ante could just experiment by adding some extra pieces of foam in his 6 inch pipe and fine tune it for his room.

[Jim Holtz]

Thanks Jim,

I knew it had to be tapered somewhere behind the mid-ranges so as not to create too much of a back wave. Rather than build your design I might use aspects of what you've learned on other designs using the mid-range pipes. Have you guys tried using different thicknesses of wool felt? Or is that just cost prohibitive and using 1 inch foam the best and most economical? It looks like you take it down from 5 inches to sort of a 3 inch diameter wide foam pipe. I guess ante could just experiment by adding some extra pieces of foam in his 6 inch pipe and fine tune it for his room.

Just for clarity, the mid tunnels are straight out the back of the cabinet so it doesn't have the traditional curved path a "normal" transmission line cabinet does. We found the one inch foam to work the best and allow some back wave to eliminate the "boxy" sound of the cabinet but not to much to smear the the front wave sound as the back and front wave blend. Curt tried several different materials but the one inch foam worked well and it was easy to source. The 2 1/2 inch wedge foam in the woofer compartment is just me because I don't like working with "itchy" fiberglass which does provide better damping. Builders have used a lot of different materials successfully.

I don't think Anti is from the US and was able to source PVC that is slightly under 5" ID.

The amount and placement of the mid tunnel lining varies with the driver. The NE149's we used in the Finalist don't have a lot of back wave so the mid tunnel lining only covered about 1/2 the depth to the back of the driver to have the correct blend. We're getting ready to announce a new project that has a VERY high energy back wave on the mid driver. This is a 6 1/4" driver with a 6" PVC tube for the mid tunnel. This driver required a solid 4" depth of foam plug filling the tube in the back plus 1" foam lining forward of that to near the back of the driver and finally a hand full of poly fill against the 4" foam plug. It still has plenty of back wave but is attenuated so that it blends perfectly with the front wave. Lots of testing and listening went into that configuration. It is very driver dependent.

BTW, Curt designs for my listening room which allows me to have about 18" from the back of the speaker to the wall behind and also to the side walls with no large objects in between that would block the back wave. Not everyone has that luxury of placement. Actually anything from 12" to 30" works really well for a nice expansive sound stage. Less than 12" and the sound stage collapses and sounds like a conventional box speaker.
It's a long ways to Iowa DIY but I think you'd enjoy the experience and the opportunity to hear a lot of speaker designs.

Jim

[Navy Guy]

Ante's Statement II build Journey

It means that wool felt instead of foam allow the sound waves to move through the Transmission line faster and maybe increases the lower frequencies....the reason for the small changes in speaker placement that cause big sound changes are due to the poor situation in which I have to place my speakers. Ron give me a detailed explanation of what is actually going on with holtz's design in this case. It seems you know everything there is about transmission lines or open backed speaker setups. Whos this danielwrites back?

What do you mean it lets the sound waves move faster and increase the low frequencies?

[DigitalMaven]

What do you mean it lets the sound waves move faster and increase the low frequencies?

Not for this particular project. I was referring to transmission line speakers that use special formulas to increase the base output. I do not have extensive experience with those designs but a lot of designs using single drivers 3-4 inches in size can put out a lot of base if designed properly. Those designs usually use wool felt and wool stuffing to fine tune the design. I would think that the idea is to attenuate the higher frequencies and increase the output of lower frequencies with special mathematical formulas in box enclosure dimensions. The sound waves moving faster was in relation to open cell foam vs. wool felt. The open cell foam will probably attenuate all the frequencies as it rolls down the pipe vs. the wool felt that allows lower frequencies to pass through.

Voight Pipes http://andrewrondeau.com/Voight%20Pipes/speakers.html

[Renron]

D.M.
You have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to QWTL. (Look it up)
I've built my own QWTL design, updated from Joseph D'Appolito's original design, with help from an Electronic Acoustic Engineer who designs radar used in Submarines, he understands "special mathematical formulas". I do not.

Ron