Official Build Thread - MIC

[Hdale85]

Man this is turning into an eternity lol.

[JonMarsh]

I'll cross my fingers for you too, Mike!

Though it will make installing the Whispermat in my upper modules a bit more difficult... :W

[meb46]

Right... this time... I have a chace to go and see the completed cabinets this Monday and then hopefully get them back on Tuesday. Unfortunately no progress to follow as I will then be in the US for the following 10 days... paitence yet again but this time it will be my absence which is the limiting factor. I'll get some photos posted before I leave though... "Absence makes the heart grow fonder"... definitely!!!! Jon's progress on his variants and a few other new projects cropping up on the forum has got me super eager to get progressing mine as soon as possible.

[JonMarsh]

Well, as a colleague use to say, slow work takes time! It gives me more time to catch up!

Hope things go well while you're in the US!

I'm happy today because our US CEO sent out an email that all employees need to use up at least two weeks vacation before April 1, so taking that extra week off at Xmas I wanted should be a cake walk!

Next I'm working on the bass module braces, then I'll be ready to assemble them. If things go well I should have that done sometime Thanksgiving week. And GF has offered to let me turn her garage into a spray booth one weekend soon.... :B

[meb46]

Garage spray booth... I like it!!! A world of improvement over my Office Spray Booth come "Dexter" themed kill room

[PMazz]

And GF has offered to let me turn her garage into a spray booth one weekend soon....

That would be your EX-girlfriend!

[JonMarsh]

That would be your EX-girlfriend!

Well, it will be totally draped and taped off, so hopefully not! :roll: But I get your message... It's either that or back to wipe on poly, and we both know I'd rather go with lacquer if possible!

[meb46]

Speakers returned... and... disappointed beyond belief!

After nearly 8 weeks away, they have been returned in a worse state than when I sent them. I voiced my disappointment and got a full refund, but that doesnt solve my problem nor does it do my project motivation and favours.

Rock bottom on this project at the present time... I think they might get covered up in the corner until I can look at them again... or get a new perspective.

I guess they are not as bad as I make out, but after pouring so much time and effort into them, I really want them to look fantastic... and this is not what I have in my eyes.

The top coats have been sprayed on with pit marks and orange peel. The veneer has been damaged in some parts since they left and VERY poorly repaired. The sharp crisp lines of them have been knocked and dinted, the sheen on the main sides are blotchy and have dust in them. The service I got was a complete sham.. Luckily I have a refund. I dont think I have any option other than stripping them back and starting from scratch with a new veneer. Depending how difficult they are to strip back, I have have to reskin them.

The dusty dirty work is officially on hold. I am away to the US tomorrow for 10 days, and then New Zealand for 3 weeks over Christmas... then I move to Chicago as of February 1st. The speakers will get packed up and shipped across shortly, so very little time to be spent on them.

At the present time, I am thinking of sorting the crossovers and then getting them running. After this, and performance pending, I will strip them back and refinish them myself once I am located in Chicago.

Head in hands, in motivational dispair! No one to quit, I just need some time to gather my thoughts and work out how to recover these.

[Hdale85]

Wow....something didn't seem right with how long they were taking, you should of gotten a bit more then a refund since they obviously damaged them and actually caused you more work then finishing them as they were supposed to. What a sham. Truly disappointed, not nearly as much as you are I'm sure but man I was looking forward to seeing these all glossy....

[meb46]

A few pictures to show how they look as of today... and a few of the frustrating screw-ups my spray vendor has "botched"... GRRRRR...

Right Hand Side Speaker - Bass Drivers Mounted and wired in Series. The Mid range will not be fitted until I re-machine the Tweeter mount to fit the new Transducer Labs Tweeter (Still to arrive)



Top Module



Top of Left Hand Side Bass Unit showing the terrible rippling and blotchy effect from the Top Lacquer... GRRRR. Bass Drivers are not fitted to this cabinet and the mounts are just blocked off to protect the interior of the Cabinets.



Top of Left Hand Bass Cabinet showing pit's, dimples, and damage to cabinet.



Further Damage to Cabinet Edges.



Moral of the story in the world of the DIYer... and those with a need for asthetics... If you want it done right, Do It Yourself...!

[Hdale85]

They still look nice, but I understand your frustration completely especially since you went to a pro. I hope you filed a complaint with whatever business organization you have around there. If it were just orange peel that's easy enough to take care of with a high grit rubbing compound and some wax.

[meb46]

Opted for a stiff Espresso Martini to help in the thought process...

They are monsters... 1.72m with feet and plinth... about 145kg each without the Tweeter, Accuton C173-6-090 or crossovers.

I am open to suggestions on how to recover the current finish or repair/rework. Currently thinking a strip, harsh belt sand, re-skin with 3mm MDF again, and a walnut burl veneer. This would be after I have the crossovers complete and I have tested that these are up to expectation in the sound department. That should see me to a point of having something that is then presenatable in my lounge and to listen to while I concoct the next version

[JonMarsh]

Wow, Michael- I so totally feel for you and this situation with your vendor that dropped the ball! To get them back in worse shape than when you sent them out is just awful! Sadly, without knowing someone who is experienced doing this kind of work, doing it yourself is likely the best solution.

Are you thinking about switching to Walnut because it may be easier to do, or show problems or issues less?

I think you're right about what you need to do to sort these out for now. A new skin would likely lay the best foundation for a second pass at veneering.

This kind of project can be a big challenge on many fronts- there's often a nagging concern I have have about the investment in time and effort, and will it all pay off as hoped in the end?

Of course, when we take on something new and challenging that represents a significant jump in expectations and skills required to complete, then there is more potential risk, as well as more potential reward. Goes hand in hand.

I've been reluctant to total up the BOM on these babies I'm working on, partly for that reason- the initial wood purchase was $1200! The only "bargains" I've had were the prices I paid for the midranges and woofers, as they've been on hand for a while, before the price increases. I've still got internal wiring (Kimber 12TC) and crossover parts to pay for.

The only thing that works for me is to give it patience and time, and my best attention to detail, and do my best to improve every detail I can while in the construction process. (working on grille cloth designs and mounting details right now).

When I'm back from my business travel, I'll be doing the final detail work on the internal braces, then will be ready to final sand the front panels and assemble the bass modules- followed by mating the cabinets and arranging for the wiring installation. That means I'm not too far away from measurements, including a test mule top module with the N26 tweeter so I'll have the data needed for the crossover variation for yours. I plan to get measured data, then work on final finishing and crossover design in parallel.

Hope your US trip goes well, and you have a good Holiday in New Zealand- keep in mind when it comes to sorting on the crossovers, Chicago is not very far from CA (compared to Singapore or New Zealand!) and I have a lot of mileage in my United account. So while design remotely should be straight forward, a local check and tune is certainly possible- my measurement and design gear (mic, preamps, Firewire interface, and Macbook Pro) is quite portable.

[CraigJ]

I used a slightly different veneering process than my previous ones. This time I applied standard wood glue to both surfaces and then smoothed the veneer on with a cork block followed by a plastic roller. I didnt use the iron on method and found the 0.33mm paper backed veneer went on without any issues. There are no bubbles or cracks. Hugely happy with the outcome!

Michael,

Very sorry to hear about the situation you are in. You obviously didn't need the extra stress, with being a newlywed and the upcoming move.

I'm wondering if a hot iron, or heat gun, will soften the wood glue and allow the veneer to peel off. I've had good luck reattaching veneer that wasn't completely glued on a few months after the initial veneer job using this method. Personally, I try to avoid belt sanders and chainsaws as it's hard for me to know when to stop.

Good luck, though I'm sure with your talent, you will not need it.

CraigJ
ps what the heck is a stiff Espresso and Martini? Is that like Red Bull and Vodka? :coffee:

[Norm]

Michael,

I’ll add my condolences. My last major project screw up was getting a commissioned speaker veneered. I botched that (contact cement – NEVER AGAIN) and you are wise to just walk away and cool down. I want to encourage you that after the repair and rework (Titebond – FOREVER) the results were excellent and the client and I were very pleased. You can and will overcome this setback!

Looking for a silver lining I gather your move to Chicago is trans-Pacific, i.e. 1000s of miles. We are in the process of packing and moving our home and just getting my speakers and other hi-fi gear across town unscathed is a major undertaking. Had your finishing shop achieved perfection you would have faced the prospect of getting them across the ocean and half of North America still perfect. With your current plan if the journey leaves its marks these will not matter as rework and refinishing are already required. You also mention more cuts on the cabinets to accommodate a change of tweeter. This will be less of a high wire act sans net now that you are not bringing power tools onto a perfect finish.

It is tough to get so close to the finish line, and stumble. Many of us keep building speakers because we find the journey as rewarding as the result. After getting past the mourning focus on how to affect the rework and achieve the quality you desire. Make your goal not a date for completion rather to achieve the quality you desire. When you get there the pride in your accomplishment and performance of this system will justify the blood, sweat, tears, and cash invested.

[Hdale85]

I used heatlock for my last speakers and I felt it worked incredibly good.

[sdl2112]

Michael,

Sorry to hear about your misfortune. You would think the people that performed the work would know their own capabilities. How they could do that shoddy of work to something so beautifully designed is upsetting.

I remember building a dining table right before I was about to move. I was in a hurry and after 10-12 coats of lacquer I wet sanded through the finish...I had to start all over. I love lacquer but now use the method David Marks suggests link . For me it applies and looks better than wipe on poly.

Best of luck going forward.

Scott

[NPE]

That is so sad! And the worst is that I'm sure that you were paying them a very consistent sum to get the job done... Not to mention shipping costs... I've following this thread and it looked phenomenal until this last page, I liked CraigJ's suggestions and if that works that would be great, sorry I'm no help but at least I can empathize and wish you good luck!

[dar47]

That's so harsh, maybe you should just put the drivers in and enjoy for a while before starting the repair. If I was close I would do a hand rubbed finish for nothing just to ease your pain.

[cjd]

If I mess up my own stuff, I fix it.

If someone else messes up my stuff, it's incredibly tough to get past. So unfortunate that this has happened for you Hope it turns out for the best in the end, but ouch.

keep in mind when it comes to sorting on the crossovers, Chicago is not very far from CA (compared to Singapore or New Zealand!) and I have a lot of mileage in my United account. So while design remotely should be straight forward, a local check and tune is certainly possible- my measurement and design gear (mic, preamps, Firewire interface, and Macbook Pro) is quite portable.

Let me know if this happens! I'd love to tag along just to see how you work, if it's OK. Chicago is even less far from the northern suburbs of Chicago...

C

[JonMarsh]

Let me know if this happens! I'd love to tag along just to see how you work, if it's OK. Chicago is even less far from the northern suburbs of Chicago...

C

No kidding! Lets see what happens. I'll be doing initial in cabinet measurements in a week or two, before finishing.

[PMazz]

I'll add my condolences.

Wow! What utter incompetence! Screwing up the finish is one thing, actually damaging the work is inexcusable. I'll bet they're glad you accepted a refund. It could have cost them much more.

[meb46]

Guys,

Many thanks for al the supportive words, this is a huge help. A couple of good nights sleep and a long haul flight to the US have helped me rationalize what to do next.

The first thing that I am really curious about is how they sound... hence I will await Jon's wizardry on the design side before i co anything rash with the speakers. In the mean time, I am going to check with a supplier of mine who presses Veneer onto thin panels. What I am thining of doing is removing the veneer... trial on how easy this will be next week some time. The idea is to remove the veneer, possibly with the help of an iron to re-melt the glue underneath. On the two main sides of moth Bass and Top Cabinets, I am going to remover the current skin completely. I should then be left with no veneer and after a rough belt sand, I should have a surface to re-skin with 3mm MDF, but this time, the two main sides of each cabinet will already ahve the veneer pressed onto the skin. this should mean the main faces the eye see's should have a perfectly smooth veneer. On the other surfaces, I will prep the surfaces to an extent where I can just reapply the veneer without the 3mm skin.

The main difference this time is that it will be veneer without a backing... so harder to put on. But the up side is that the areas will be relatively small.

Naturally this really depends on how easy the veneer can be removed.

As I have a small amount of time up my sleeve while I wait for the Transducer Lab Tweeters and Jon's crossover testing... I might get some of this done before they are packed for the move. The next thing that will worry me is the application of the lacquer again... I might be searching for a Automotive painter... or a fellow DIYer that wants to share some tips on Spray lacquer....

What all this does mean is that they wont be finished by Christmas... but it does mean I might leave them as is until I can confirm their sound... and then start afresh with re-veneering when I hit the ground in the US.

It's disappointing, but having them back in the lounge does reinvigorate the thought process and get me a little more jazzed about the finished article

Thanks again for the support, I will keep you all posted on progress.

With the option of putting down raw veneer without backing... whats the best heat activated glue for this process?

[Face]

Have you ordered the TL tweeters yet? If not, I'd look elsewhere. Unless you're going to hide them behind a waveguide, their huge, old school face plates would be an eye sore on that beautiful cabinet.

[JonMarsh]

Have you ordered the TL tweeters yet? If not, I'd look elsewhere. Unless you're going to hide them behind a waveguide, their huge, old school face plates would be an eye sore on that beautiful cabinet.

There's a version with a new smaller circular front panel in the works that Mike is signed up for. Same magnet system and performance characteristics; N26-CR-A

Image not available

Now, the N28BER is the one that may be pretty interesting when available from them- they do provide an extended range plot.

Image not available

Plot

[Paulie]

With the option of putting down raw veneer without backing... whats the best heat activated glue for this process?

It is generally not recommended to use heat on raw veneer. You may want to look into a cold press method.
Sorry to hear about the damage to your speakers, they are very impressive.

[meb46]

A few more delays on the Tweeters... Not expecting these until early - mid December, so paitence paitence...

[Hank]

You're hanging in there - I know the patience thing can be a challenge. If you've definitely decided to re-veneer, I'll put in my 2 cents plug for my favorite finish: hand-rubbed Danish oil. It's labor intensive, but produces, IMO, the most beautiful grain-enhancing finish. It's also the least protective, but that's the tradeoff I've always been quite willing to have. I'm sure you are gun-shy re having a third party spray a finish, so you might want to try the oil on these speakers. Best of luck to you :T

[JonMarsh]

A few more delays on the Tweeters... Not expecting these until early - mid December, so paitence paitence...

As always, if it's not one thing, it's another!

I'm leaving soon for Austria for two weeks, back around the 14th. What with trying to get done some of the work I was originally going to be doing (before this short notice trip came up), I'm swamped- just a little free time in the evening for some occasional detail work.

Internal cables supposed to hit the dock today. I'm looking forward to that, and putting them in my special parts bin.

I've also been checking my crossover parts stock, and I do have a few large AWG12 inductors on hand, so I may get lucky on that score.

OTOH, I'm also in discussions with the vendor for the new DAC I'm considering the beginning of the year, which can be configured with multiple channels and electronic crossover functions. So I'll probably be playing with several variants of crossovers. Will post more about that in the build thread I'll start after I get back.

Another first order of business when I get back is some of the finishing test experiments- I'll be on PTO the rest of December after my return.

Hang in there, Mike!

[Hdale85]

Was curious if you had attempted to remove the veneer at all? I have some cabinets that I'd like to redo because the veneer didn't work out very well and I used heat-loc for them.

[Renovator]

removing veneer with a hand plane

Hi, like many I have been watching this with interest and was sorry to hear the finish did not turn out as planned.

I've been expecting someone to post this link as this guy did exactly what you are planning to do, and it seems to work very well. Provided you have some old school tools.

Hope you get a satisfactory solution

Lewis

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?224124-Removing-veneer-with-a-hand-plane

[JonMarsh]

Good link- could be helpful. I've been using some Veritas planers a frequently in the last few years, and find them indispensable for many tasks.

[Hdale85]

But then I have to buy a pricey hand plane Also my cabinet is curved......might be a bit harder.

[meb46]

As Jon charges on and passes my progress I am still paitently waiting to get to the US and kick-start my project again. Amist all of the remote time and inability to actually do much on the project, I have made one decision... veneer is out, and a gloss white finish is going to replace it. I see a few people on the forum have tackled this and made some really great finishes. this way I can leave the disappointment of the veneer behind... in theory. the obvious next step is to remove the veneer which I had a look at before I packed the cabinets and it looks to come off relatively easy. I will re-skin them before the lacquer finish which should make it a little easier to get a prestine finish... well at least thats the thought this month

Let me know of your successes with white lacquer finishes and any photos would be a great help for inspiration.

Next step... crossover... and it looks like Jon is making fantastic progress on his thread

[Hdale85]

I don't think he's passed your progress yet, he's only got one cabinet built last I heard

[JonMarsh]

I don't think he's passed your progress yet, he's only got one cabinet built last I heard

Au contraire, both cabinets are built and ready for fine sanding, surface fill, and finishing, but we only load drivers in one cabinet to get measurement data for crossovers! :W

And in other good news, the explosion proof exhaust fan for my knockdown spray booth shipped today! Things are rolling...


BTW, Mike, I'll need you to get impedance data on your woofers in your cabinet, because running bass reflex, you have a very different impedance curve, double humps on either side of the nominal Fs, and the upper one often requires a conjugate network (LCR zobel) to minimize the interaction with the low pass crossover. Also, we'll want to look for vertical column resonance; with this shape cabinet, this can happen (did with the Ardents), and that requires a little extra stuffing at one end for damping. The woofer tester 3 from PE works pretty well for impedance curves- does the Dayton Audio measurement system you got from Parts Express include that capability?

[Hdale85]

Well thats awesome Jon!

[meb46]

Jon - sounds good. I will have to wait until my Cabinets turn up in Chicago and I am living somewhere other than a serviced apartment - probably early March by the time I have somewhere called home. But this should be okay to measure. Once I get to Chicago I will dig out my measurement gear and see what functionality it has for this.

[cjd]

If you get stuck I can definitely help out with usable impedance curves. Probably raw data too... depends which part of Chicago you're actually in but.

[meb46]

CJD - Many thanks, will keep you posted.

[ellisr63]

How expensive was it to have it all CNC'd?

[meb46]

Don't ask... in hindsight, I could have "nearly" purchased a China Made CNC Router

But... it is fabulous to work with CNC tolerances and the front baffles are spot on. the Baffles have in excess of 8 Hours each machining...

Version Two, whenever that may happen... will definitely include my own CNC Router

[Hdale85]

My CNC work wasn't nearly that bad, I think I paid about 400 or so. I do wish I could of done it my self, and I do have some awesome plans for a very nice CNC router table, just waiting for a garage to put one in

[cjd]

CJD - Many thanks, will keep you posted.

For that matter - I'm seriously looking at a quality vacuum bag setup for veneering, should you change your mind on that. But the measurement rig is very easily portable, and something as simple as plain impedance doesn't take long at all. Full frequency measurements take a bit more time if you want all the angles but even that's not the worst thing in the world.

C

[sdl2112]

As Jon charges on and passes my progress I am still paitently waiting to get to the US and kick-start my project again. Amist all of the remote time and inability to actually do much on the project, I have made one decision... veneer is out, and a gloss white finish is going to replace it. I see a few people on the forum have tackled this and made some really great finishes. this way I can leave the disappointment of the veneer behind... in theory. the obvious next step is to remove the veneer which I had a look at before I packed the cabinets and it looks to come off relatively easy. I will re-skin them before the lacquer finish which should make it a little easier to get a prestine finish... well at least thats the thought this month

Let me know of your successes with white lacquer finishes and any photos would be a great help for inspiration.

Next step... crossover... and it looks like Jon is making fantastic progress on his thread

I've been really liking the white look lately. I think the cabinets would look great in white...it really highlights the drivers. Now that I have a sprayer I have all kinds of new finish ideas including white...anyway here's a few photos for inspiration :W