A (late) Statements Build.

[AdelaaR]

Hi there

I'm from Belgium and I may be a bit late as it seems the statements were invented late in 2007, but nevertheless I was searching for a project to build my own speakers and when I came across the "statements" ... I just knew "THIS is it".
This will be my first ever speaker building though I'm fairly used to electronics and precise woodworking so it should present no significant problems

Already I got lucky (beginner's luck?) and just a few minutes ago I won an auction on ebay for the Fountek NeoCD3.0's for only 86€ for a pair in nearly-new condition!

I'm still building my house at the moment and that takes a lot of time on top of my fulltime job, so don't expect me to finish 'em soon.
I will be incorporating a music studio in my house with fully insulated soundproof and reflectionfree walls and ceiling and the statements will be positioned inthere, ofcourse. The room will be about 4 to 3 meters (13 to 10 feet).
Is that too small for such beasts?

Big thanks to Jim, Curt & Wayne in advance for designing and sharing ;x(

[Curt C]

Welcome AdelaaR! Good to hear from another fledgling speaker builder. I sincerely hope the Statements will match your expectations...

Keep an eye on the threads here concerning any necessay changes due to the new PE drivers. I'll try to keep my website up to date as well, but it will probably be on the forums first...

Meanwhile, post any questions here and we'll do our best to address them.

Someday I'd like to showcase all the Statement designs built around the world. I think we've got just about every continent covered but Antartica...

C

[AdelaaR]

Curt, I appreciate your concern but it isn't needed.
I live in belgium so I wont be ordering from Parts Express ... on top of that: The shielded daytons are still available here aparently.
I will be ordering them shortly just to make sure.
The Jantzen caps seem to be extremely expensive here though!
Example: The 100 nonafarad Jantzen cap costs 55€ here compared to $30 at PE.
Is there an actual audible difference between Jantzen caps and expensive caps in general and cheaper caps with the same specs?

[Curt C]

Jim spec’d the Janzens based on value, so there is no reason not to substitute a similar and more cost effective product in their stead.

The audibility of caps is generally a heated subject, and often results in flame wars, take the following as one man's opinion only:

Caps can sound different in some instances/applications. When comparing polypropylene caps one can perceive a difference. The differences are usually quite subtle, and while the difference may be audible, it is often more difficult to claim one difference sounds better than another difference. Psychoacoustic memory being as it is, I don’t worry much about boutique caps, and stick with the mid level polypropylene caps and whatever is generally available to you. –Solens, perhaps? If I could buy only one high dollar boutique cap, I’d use it in the tweeter network, and be content with Solens, or similar the mid and woofer networks.

Other thoughts:
-Non polarized electrolytics should be considered in woofer nets only and then only if the cap value is sufficiently large that poly caps would be prohibitively expensive, or the design itself requires it.
-Mylar caps are better than NPE’s but not as good as polys.
-Use available funds wisely: A $20 cap on a $100 driver will sound better than a $100 cap on a $20 driver.

I’d get your drivers ordered soon. I was just trading emails today with a Swiss gentleman who indicated he cannot find a source for the RS180’s to build the MiniStatements. If your source still has stock on RS180’s I’m certain he would be interested in knowing where he might be able procure them.

C

[AdelaaR]

I searched for the crossover parts in various european online stores and I came to find out that many of the needed parts are hard to find in those exact values.
I figured out what "AWG" means by now ... but is it that important to get the values exactly right?
For instance: I can find a Jantzen Aircoil 1mm (18 awg) with a value of 0.39mH instead of 0.40 mH ... but I can't seem to find the O.40 anywhere

[john trials]

I searched for the crossover parts in various european online stores and I came to find out that many of the needed parts are hard to find in those exact values.
I figured out what "AWG" means by now ... but is it that important to get the values exactly right?
For instance: I can find a Jantzen Aircoil 1mm (18 awg) with a value of 0.39mH instead of 0.40 mH ... but I can't seem to find the O.40 anywhere

0.39mH is fine. The specified 0.4mH inductor has a +/-3% tolerance on its inductance. http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/EQ...l/EAC32-18-400 Make sure the DCR is similar (it should be, as the wire diameter is similar).

[AdelaaR]

I have another question ... it may come over as noobish but what the heck
What is the maximum power output of the statements in watts?
And in the same line: What is a recommended amplifier wattage to drive them?
I will be running them on my vintage Sansui AU-9900 because I love the sound of that-one ... it is 80 watts per channel.

[AdelaaR]

I cannot find a 0.30mH coil anywhere here in Europe
The closest i can find is either 0.27 or 0.33 ... those values do not fall within the 3% tolerance.
If I get myself 2 coils of 0.15mH and wire them in series ... would that work?

[john trials]

Wiring inductors in series is fine. The value of the inductance adds up. You also must consider that the resistance also adds when they are in series. You can put two 0.15mH inductors in series, but make sure the DCR (direct current resistance) is the same as the specified 0.30mH inductor. If you have access to equipment that can measure inductance, you can buy the 0.33mH and unwind just a little bit until you get 0.30mH.

I'm not sure how good your ears are, but I bet I wouldn't be able to hear the difference between a 0.3mH and a 0.33mH inductor.

[AdelaaR]

Thanks for clearing that up.
I wasn't paying attention to the resistance of these things.
Will check again.

[Curt C]

AdelaaR,

I did a bit of modeling with the .3 mH inductor, and small changes inductance (like going to a .27 mH or a .33 mH) will have an audible effect as it changes the response fairly significantly at 3 kHz region. -A frequency where the ear is quite sensitive to response changes. The good news is the DCR of a pair of .15 mH in series will affect little change, as long as you stick with 18 gauge or larger inductors.

Check with your sources. They may be able to unwind a larger coil to the correct value for a minimal or no fee, and save you a few euros...

C

[AdelaaR]

My neocd3's should be arriving early this week and once I have them there is no turning back

I haven't actually started building yet but I was already thinking ahead and so I have an idea.
I will be using the statements as mains for stereo music listening and they will also be used as mains in my 7.1 setup.
I have no room for a huge statements center channel or monitors as rears and so i was thinking if there is a possibility for a small satellite speaker using just one W4-1337 to be used as rears and maybe a small center channel with 2 W4-1337 as center. Those would fit in my room (and budget)
The only problem is that they should be voiced and crossed to have the same midrange sound as the statements to have a consistent sound in surround setups.
What do you think of this, Curt?

[AdelaaR]

About the inductor:

I work for Belgium's telephone company as a freelance internet an digital TV technician so I'm sure somebody at the company has some very expensive measurement devices that can measure just about anything ... I think I'll go with unwinding

[john trials]

I will be using the statements as mains for stereo music listening and they will also be used as mains in my 7.1 setup.
I have no room for a huge statements center channel or monitors as rears and so i was thinking if there is a possibility for a small satellite speaker using just one W4-1337 to be used as rears and maybe a small center channel with 2 W4-1337 as center. Those would fit in my room (and budget)
The only problem is that they should be voiced and crossed to have the same midrange sound as the statements to have a consistent sound in surround setups.

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27583

I should have built some F4's for my surrounds (I could have saved some major $). Statement Monitors are awesome, but I feel they are too nice for surrounds! The Statement CC is nice...and well worth it.

[AdelaaR]

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction

The monitors should be excellent for multi channel music listening i guess ... if you have room behind your sofa to place them at earlevel and positioned correctly.
Not an option for me though ... my sofa will have to be at the far side of my HT with my computer and the statements at the other side ... this means I have no room for placing speakers behind the listener and there will also be no room for a huge CC since my computer desk will be located there.
A small enough CC can fit under my computer screen
I listen to music in stereo and will only be using the surround for HT ... so I hope a single W4-1337 per speaker will be enough to give nice surround.

[AdelaaR]

Now that I have found the small speakers with the W4-1337 to use as rears I am totally convinced.
I just ordered all the parts with a total of 10 tang band's and once my shipment has safely arrived I shall disclose my source as Curt has requested for his Swiss friend.
I must say I'm very excited

[Curt C]

AdelaaR,

I see no issue with using Jed’s F4’s for surround speakers. There are a couple of caveats though:

The F4’s should be used with an electrical HP filter at 80 Hz on the HT receiver. If this is done, then the little W4-1337 modeled in Jed’s enclosures will be capable of about 102 dB maximum SPL at its excursion limits. This is about 8 dB less than the Statements are capable of, but in most instances the surrounds aren’t tasked to play as loud as the mains anyway, so depending on the source material, and how loud you expect to play them, they will be fine, and will sound full range as long as they are aimed directly at the listeners.

The center channel is a different story: Ideally, the center should be capable of the same max SPL and bandwidth as the mains, as it carries the majority of the information in HT venues. It also should be closely voiced to the mains.

Using a pair of 1337’s will gain 6 dB of SPL, but used full range (as in the F4’s) the comb filter effects from the two drivers will be cause significant response aberration, and will vary significantly depending on the listening position. The lack of a real tweeter will be quite obvious, as would the lack of bass response due to the required high pass filter. Even Jed’s R44 (and D44) would, in my opinion be unacceptable used on their side, due to the high crossover frequency to the tweeter.

Computer desks are overrated anyway… :B

A couple of options:
Try running your HT as a phantom center and see if you can live without it. This potentially may be the least objectionable option, as it leaves your computer desk unchanged. However, if this does not work out for you:

Throw the timber matching aspect out the window. Consider something like my AviaTrix design. While it does not use any of the drivers used in the Statements, it is voiced quite similarly, as I used the same reference speakers for voicing. The drivers used provide excellent sound quality in their own right. They will not sound like the 1337's and Neo3's, but close enough, and nice enough, that it may not represent an audible issue.

Addressing the other center channel issues: The AviaTrix will play nearly as loud, and nearly as full range as the Statements, lacking only about 3 dB, and the last octave of bass extension. The sealed MTM version, at 15 liters, has a relatively small footprint, and should comfortably fit under the computer monitor. Most importantly, it was designed to provide excellent off-axis response with a horizontal orientation as a center channel.

C

[AdelaaR]

Curt ... many thanks for your personal interest and lengthy response

I'm afraid the damage is done though ... I have ordered 10 W4-1337's with 2 of them intended for the center channel.
I was already thinking of an R44 as center channel so to match the statements as closely as possible in a small box ... isn't it possible with most surround receivers to simply adjust the output levels of the different channels and possibly do a little EQ-ing on the center to achieve an acceptable result?
The statements themselves are too huge for my small music room anyway

Using no center isn't going to work out well ... in dolby digital streams the center is a completely different track and it should be left as it is in my opinion.
Computer desks are overrated in typical HT-setups. My setup isn't typical though ... I didn't construct it yet as this is on my list for the next few years.
The room is a concrete floor with brick walls as we speak ... it shall be treated with a wall-in-wall system with glass wool insulation.
The room will be used as music studio and music listening room mainly ... when using it as HT a screen will drop from the ceiling in front of the computer desk

[Jim Holtz]

I'm afraid the damage is done though ... I have ordered 10 W4-1337's with 2 of them intended for the center channel.
I was already thinking of an R44 as center channel so to match the statements as closely as possible in a small box ... isn't it possible with most surround receivers to simply adjust the output levels of the different channels and possibly do a little EQ-ing on the center to achieve an acceptable result?
The statements themselves are too huge for my small music room anyway

Using no center isn't going to work out well ... in dolby digital streams the center is a completely different track and it should be left as it is in my opinion.
Computer desks are overrated in typical HT-setups. My setup isn't typical though ... I didn't construct it yet as this is on my list for the next few years.
The room is a concrete floor with brick walls as we speak ... it shall be treated with a wall-in-wall system with glass wool insulation.
The room will be used as music studio and music listening room mainly ... when using it as HT a screen will drop from the ceiling in front of the computer desk

I'm not Curt but here's my thoughts.

The center channel carries up to 70% of the sound in most movies with the rest of the speakers providing effects. If you listen to music in surround, the voicing becomes a bit more critical but still The mains will be the primary effects channels and will carry almost no dialogue which is what most people use to judge how well speakers integrate into a surround system. Test tones are for balance only. Similar voicing is going to be the critical factor, IMHO.

I'd suggest you go with the AviaTrix as Curt suggested. The low crossover point will provide exceptional off axis dispersion that is not usually expected in a MTM design as a center. Voicing will be extremely similar to the Statements. Jed has many excellent designs so they will be a very good choice too.

Good luck!

Jim

[AdelaaR]

Did anyone compare the voicing of the R44's to the statements?
The center channel will be pretty far away from the sofa, so the dispersion of it isn't going to matter a lot ... I think (hope).

It should look something like this:

Image not available

I made this in 2 minutes ... I know the drawing isn't great
The rears will be placed inside cavities in the fake wall to save space.
The statements will of course be used as mains, but might be backed up by a pair of active monitors for actual mixing & mastering ... that will depend on how well the statements perform in this regard.
The projection screen will drop from the ceiling just about where the computer seat is located.
As you can see the center is quite far and doesn't need a lot of side dispersion.
It is a work in progress though and so far nothing has been made yet so I'm open to all ideas

[AdelaaR]

I have looked at the aviatrix and it looks neat and not too big.
I might just as well go for the aviatrix and use my two spare W4-1337's as additional sattelite speakers for a 9.1 surround system

[AdelaaR]

I have done some tinkering and decided that the aviatrix CC is the way to go, as you suggested curt ... thanks for that.
I hope I can still easily find those drivers though.
It will certainly look good under my computer screen and I can mount some kind of metal grill on them to protect the drivers.
The 2 spare W4-1337's aren't lost ... I will use those to make small R4's for music in the kitchen

[Curt C]

The ND140-8 and the AviaTrix kit are now back in stock at Parts Express:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-704&FTR=aviatrix%20kit

Granted, this is for a pair, but PE may accommodate you, as I'm sure there are others wanting to build one for a center channel as well.

C

[nk215]

I don't use a center speaker in my home theater (a 4.1 setup only). However all the speakers I have in there are high quality 4 way speakers. I didn't feel like I miss anything by not using the center.

The reason for me not to use center was beause I couldn't find a center that match the quality of my other speakers. Since the center does most of the work, having a not-as-great center, in my situation, is worse than not having the center at all.

I sit around 18 feet from the screen and the mains are 17 feet apart. That may make a different.

[AdelaaR]

Curt, I live in belgium so PE isn't on my suppliers list.
My order for the statements has just been processed and will be shipped.
I ordered everything at www.europe-audio.com ... they're from holland and they still have 5 RS180S-8's left for your swiss friend, Curt.
They gave me a nice 10% off reduction because I ordered 750€ of these older drivers they have on sale now ... yay.
I am a free-lance computer-audio-video installer, so I was able to buy the drivers without taxes and eventually I can even deduct them from my taxes next year ...
I need an audio-video demonstration room, don't I?
I'm pretty excited ... the package is going to weigh almost 50 kilo's (110lbs)!

[BeerParty]

Consider something like my AviaTrix design. While it does not use any of the drivers used in the Statements, it is voiced quite similarly, as I used the same reference speakers for voicing. The drivers used provide excellent sound quality in their own right. They will not sound like the 1337's and Neo3's, but close enough, and nice enough, that it may not represent an audible issue.

AdelaaR - I have two Statement Monitors built and I am in the process of building 3 of the sealed MTM AviaTrixs. I had two of the AviaTrixs far enough along to try them out for the NE DIY event a month ago (they sounded excellent, thanks Curt! ;x( ), but still need to finish the cabinets. My plan was to use the AviaTrixs as LCRs in my family room because the Statement Monitors are too large. I never thought about using one AviaTrix as a center with the Statements.

While I couldn't leave the Statements in the family room permanently, I could set them up with an AviaTrix center and try them out for a day or so. If I can set it up, I'll post my impressions here.

One more item to put on my to-do list over the holidays. :P

[Curt C]

Thanks Chris!

I have a a plethora of AviTrix in my possession, but no longer have ready access to any of the Statement designs. I'd love to hear your impressions of them as compared to the Statements.

C

[AdelaaR]

Yeah that would be nice if you could set them up together and hear what it sound like.
Thanks.

[AdelaaR]

My founteks have arrived

Image not available

The guy on ebay I bought them from owns an audio shop and used them for measurements only ... now that I had a look at them from up close I think his story is legit because some of the foam behind the screws is still intact which indicates that he just hooked them up for a short period.

I must say I was expecting them to have a nice finish because of their price ... but I was still a bit overwhelmed by the VERY nice finish they have and the overall weight of them is pretty much for such small things.
The coated aluminum front plate gives them a very professional touch

[bigbardmusiq]

Can someone confirm that the port for the statement center is 2 1/2 diameter? or 3?
the cad drawing says 2 1/2 by 7 inches long..

[Jim Holtz]

Can someone confirm that the port for the statement center is 2 1/2 diameter? or 3?
the cad drawing says 2 1/2 by 7 inches long..

2 1/2x7 is correct for the center.

Jim

[AdelaaR]

Over here the CAD says 3" by 4" ??

I'm assuming 2,5" is the inner diameter then?
And so 7" is the length including flares?

[AdelaaR]

Ohhh ... you were discussing the statements center ... ahhh.

[1Michael]

I'm assuming 2.5" is the inner diameter then?

Yes

And so 7" is the length including flares?

No, it includes only 50% of the curve of the flare.

[zacjones]

The traditional approach would be to move the couch off the back wall at least 3-4 feet and put the last pair of surrounds behind the couch, but there is always a tradeoff... (in this case the couch in the middle of a medium sized room). Maybe put the couch on sliders so you can slide the couch back after the movie's over? It would probably be better to be a little closer to the screen anyway if you'll be watching on a computer monitor. Also I'd imagine you'll probably end up scooting the computer chair back sometimes to watch anyway, so the traditional surround arrangement might be better there too. Just my 2 cents before you start punching holes in the walls. Good luck with your build. Sounds like a fun one!

Did anyone compare the voicing of the R44's to the statements?
The center channel will be pretty far away from the sofa, so the dispersion of it isn't going to matter a lot ... I think (hope).

It should look something like this:

Image not available

I made this in 2 minutes ... I know the drawing isn't great
The rears will be placed inside cavities in the fake wall to save space.
The statements will of course be used as mains, but might be backed up by a pair of active monitors for actual mixing & mastering ... that will depend on how well the statements perform in this regard.
The projection screen will drop from the ceiling just about where the computer seat is located.
As you can see the center is quite far and doesn't need a lot of side dispersion.
It is a work in progress though and so far nothing has been made yet so I'm open to all ideas

[AdelaaR]

Aha ... 50% of the curve of the flares ... that totally makes sense yet I had never thought about it that way.
Thanks for pointing that out, mate.
The concept of these statements slowly starts brooding in my brain now.

[AdelaaR]

The traditional approach would be to move the couch off the back wall at least 3-4 feet and put the last pair of surrounds behind the couch, but there is always a tradeoff... (in this case the couch in the middle of a medium sized room). Maybe put the couch on sliders so you can slide the couch back after the movie's over? It would probably be better to be a little closer to the screen anyway if you'll be watching on a computer monitor. Also I'd imagine you'll probably end up scooting the computer chair back sometimes to watch anyway, so the traditional surround arrangement might be better there too. Just my 2 cents before you start punching holes in the walls. Good luck with your build. Sounds like a fun one!

I would if I could, but the door is located just left of where the couch will be.
If I move the couch forward the door will be blocked.
I will not be watching movies on the computer monitor but on a projection screen that will drop from the ceiling ... I've already got my eye on some nice automaticaly lowering screens with control buttons on the wall
I will not be punching holes in the wall ... the room will be a recording studio as well as a home theater so the walls will be fake walls seperated from the actual brick wall and stuffed full of fiberglass to make sure there are no reflections whatsoever.

[zacjones]

That's more like it. It sounded like you've done some planning for this and watching a computer monitor from the couch didn't seem quite right! :lol:

[AdelaaR]

"some planning" is an understatement ... I have been building my house for 5 years now and the concept of the studio/HT room has been in my mind since the very start.
I had other priorities though such as walls, a roof, doors, windows, heating, insulation, electricity, etc...
My wife keeps telling me that the kitchen and the living room should go first though, so the actual building of the studio may start in a few years ... but there's nothing keeping me from building the speakers first and listening to them in the attic, right?

[AdelaaR]

Nobody has answered my question about the amplifier so I'll ask it again:
Is an amp like my Sansui AU-9900 with 80 watts per channel going to be enough to drive these things and why or why not?

[BeerParty]

Nobody has answered my question about the amplifier so I'll ask it again:
Is an amp like my Sansui AU-9900 with 80 watts per channel going to be enough to drive these things and why or why not?

That should be fine. I can drive my Statements with a Denon AVR-1709, which is also 80 watts per channel into 6 ohms (you may need to check that it can drive a 6 ohms speaker).

[AdelaaR]

Oh ... so the statements are 6 ohms then? I Never heard of 6 ohm speakers before.
Apparently my amp can take 4 ohms or 8 ohms when only one pair is connected, so I assume that 6 ohms will be fine then.

[Jim Holtz]

Oh ... so the statements are 6 ohms then? I Never heard of 6 ohm speakers before.
Apparently my amp can take 4 ohms or 8 ohms when only one pair is connected, so I assume that 6 ohms will be fine then.

Actually, the average would be around 6 ohms with a 4 ohm minimum. That is a very easy load to drive except for the "wimpiest" of amps/receivers. Honestly, I prefer to be in the 100+ watt range at (8 ohm rating) with more being better. It depends on the volume you'll drive them to and what kind of music/movies you frequent. Big bass = big power.

Jim

[AdelaaR]

I'm having a very hard time finding suitable bass ports.
I'm building the full statements and the design says diameter 3" length 4".
I've read somewhere around here that the actual length should be 7" including the flares.
The 3" is the inner diameter I assume since that is what counts for the tuning.
That makes 7.62 cm here ... is it safe for me to use a 7,5 or 8 cm tube or do I need another length then?
Sorry to ask so many questions but I got confused :$

[Curt C]

What size tube is available to you? Will it be flared or stright? Answer those questions and we'll figure an appropriate port length for you...

C