Soundemons Statement LCR build

[JonMarsh]

All of them together tho - sounded terrible, very thin, and I had to turn the amp up a fair ways to get any volume. I'm sure this is just due to them being on the floor and not in their enclosure. does other peoples experience match this?

Yes, that's completely and totally normal- to those of us who've been doing speakers a few decades (well, four to be exact), it's almost very funny that anyone would expect otherwise with drivers just sitting out on the floor. *You've got a complete acoustical short circuit for any part of the lower frequency ranges of the woofer and mids, which means that the 180 degree out of phase information from the front and back cancels. Zip, for most purposes, except for some of the highest frequencies handled where the time delay back to front may allow enough phase shift so there isn't complete cancellation. The more power you pump in, the more cancellation you get. Don't test them this way- it would be too easy to put the drivers into excess mechanical excursion. The best way to do preliminary testing is to mount all the drivers with leads coming out the port, and connect and test that way. Then you get a realistic way to assess the sound and determine if things are working correctly - this way, you really can't tell much of anything.

[Mark K]

Holy !@#%
That's what I've been doing wrong... :E

[Jim Holtz]

Thank you Jon! I keep telling people don't test your crossovers this way but they don't listen.

Jim

[soundemon]

I guess I took the advice "test your crossovers before instaling them" a little too literally... 8O

I mis-spoke a little tho, when I said I needed to turn it up a fair amount to get any volume, what I meant was I had to turn it way up to get any cone excursion - where at this volume my old speakers mid-bass driver would be moving like crazy, there was still no visible excursion on the bass driver, I had to touch the surround to feel if it was moving. and the mids I couldnt feel any movement on the surround, I had to cup my ear around it to hear that it was driving... :E

[savage25xtreme]

Yes, that's completely and totally normal- to those of us who've been doing speakers a few decades (well, four to be exact), it's almost very funny that anyone would expect otherwise with drivers just sitting out on the floor. *You've got a complete acoustical short circuit for any part of the lower frequency ranges of the woofer and mids, which means that the 180 degree out of phase information from the front and back cancels. Zip, for most purposes, except for some of the highest frequencies handled where the time delay back to front may allow enough phase shift so there isn't complete cancellation. The more power you pump in, the more cancellation you get. Don't test them this way- it would be too easy to put the drivers into excess mechanical excursion. The best way to do preliminary testing is to mount all the drivers with leads coming out the port, and connect and test that way. Then you get a realistic way to assess the sound and determine if things are working correctly - this way, you really can't tell much of anything.

learn something new every day on this forum :T

[john trials]

Soundemon, I think you have a wiring error in your mid xover (I'm refering to the photo in post #44).

You have "IN-" connected to "OUT-" by using that short wire on the connector block.

"IN-" should be connected to "OUT+" by using that short wire on the connector block.

If you change just this short wire routing (and nothing else), then that xover should be okay.

[soundemon]

Soundemon, I think you have a wiring error in your mid xover (I'm refering to the photo in post #44).

You have "IN-" connected to "OUT-" by using that short wire on the connector block.

"IN-" should be connected to "OUT+" by using that short wire on the connector block.

If you change just this short wire routing (and nothing else), then that xover should be okay.

Nice catch John - thanks!! ;x(

[soundemon]

DONE!!! (except veneer)

Finished the build! (except veneer, and excluding the center :W )

I've got them in their temporary location currently, soon I'll be building the room for them. In this room, so far, without any run in at all they sound EXCELLENT!!! I was really quite honestly expecting to have to pull them appart to debug crossovers, but these sound amazing right out the box! (so to speak...)

Some pix:
daddy build speakers!



shot of them both:



Looking up...



backs: (foams a little rough, to be tidied after some position experiments...)



and finally, in place:



Veneering is going to wait a bit, at least untill I get the center done, and possibly (probably) untill I get my room built.

Thanks again to Jim and Curt for their design!

[Jim Holtz]

That's what we like to hear! :T

Jim

[Mazeroth]

Looking really good! I like how you made the bases.

[soundemon]

I'll do an in-depth review soon (after they're fully run in) but had the parents over today, put on Tubular Bells, and made my mother cry the sound was so clean and pure. not much else can beat seeing my mom enjoy the sound so much!

[JonMarsh]

Thank you Jon! I keep telling people don't test your crossovers this way but they don't listen.

Jim

You and SL! :W

[Mazeroth]

I had a similar experience a few years ago with my Magnepan MMG's and quad Shiva IB sub. I used my DCX2496 with some EQ to get the Maggies and IB sub as flat as possible and they sounded incredible. My parents came down to visit and it's extremely difficult to impress my mother with anything electronic. Well, I put on a CD (I think a Sheffield demo CD) and she was blown away by how good everything sounded. I listen to my music in almost complete darkness so I put her in that environment. After the first track I told her I was headed upstairs to see my Dad and she said ok. An hour later, she came upstairs. The rest is history. :T

I'll do an in-depth review soon (after they're fully run in) but had the parents over today, put on Tubular Bells, and made my mother cry the sound was so clean and pure. not much else can beat seeing my mom enjoy the sound so much!

[impala454]

They look awesome man!

New tagline for the statements...

"The Statements, they will make your mother cry."

[tomdro]

Congratulations, Soundemon. They look great! I hope you can quit listening to them long enough to do the veneer.

[soundemon]

listening tests

After a good 100 hours of run in, I've finally sat down to do some critical listening, and here is a listing of some albums and specific songs I like to use to test.

I'm not so much with the flowery language - I'd never be a pro reviewer. For some of the songs I made specific notes, for some just listed why I like to use them for critical listening.
Thru all of the songs, and thru all the movies I've watched, I'm blown away by the clarity and detail these speakers provide, the depth and quality of bass, the deep wide soundstage, and ability to play LOUD without distortion.

-Tool 10,000 days – Vicarious and Jambi - tight even bass, great clarity, good “ambience” (low level sounds present) great depth of sound (deep soundstage)

-Pink Floyd – animals – clean clear sound, great detail. This is one of my favorite “close your eyes and listen” CD’s, and gives me Goosebumps when played on a good system – mission accomplished!

-Mixalot “cheaf boot knocker" – “whats real” Bass testing, usually requires a sub – passes very well, good clean and very deep bass.

-Front line assembly – "Implode". Specifically the song “prophesy” heavy deep bass with high treble background voices (which I refer to as the angels singing), blends very well.

-Protest the hero – "Fortress": ton of detail, lots of aggressive pitch and timing changes, very clean.

-Marcus miller – “silver rain” – great bass guitar leads, jazzy style music. Very nice natural bass, wide soundstage.

-Mr. Bungle – “California” specifically the song “Ars Moriendi” Tons of different types of music jammed into this song, huge dynamic swings. One of my reference songs for equipment testing; did not disappoint!

The death metal

-Deicide – Stench of redemption. “Walk with the Devil in Dreams You Behold” Tom rolls extend far beyond speakers to L&R, also drops from middle of speaker to thru the floor. (great soundstage)

-Dying Fetus –“Destroy the Opposition” Extremely aggressive but clean metal, very fast detailed drumming.

-Cryptopsy – “Whisper Supremacy” very chaotic metal, easy to become a muddled mess, sounds amazing, very clear and crisp

-Napalm death – Fear, Emptiness, Despair. Good clean aggressive blast beats, very clean drum and guitar work.


Various movies clarity and depth of sound excellent.

Right now the statements are sitting in a recess, which is only about 10' wide. I'll be moving them (eventually) to a dedicated room, which is 15' wide, so placement and spacing will be much better. Can't wait to hear them in a good room, rather than "passable" which is where they're sitting currently!

[Jim Holtz]

Thanks for the great review! :T

Jim

[soundemon]

I'm starting the planning for the center now. Honestly, I'm not a huge fan of the look of the current Statement center, it seems dwarfed and outclassed when sitting next to the full sized Statements. Visual appeal seems a little silly of a reason to chose one center over another, but it is a factor in my decision making never the less.

That being said, I'd like to build a center which has the Neocd3.0, but has 2 of the W4 mids, and 2 woofers, whether they be the RS225's or the RS180's.

I like the look of Frodaddy's custom center, but would rather keep the mids open backed like the L&R. I've got tons of room to play with at the front end of my room, it's going to be 15' wide, with only the LCR and a 3-channel amp to drive them all at the front (plus screen)

I'm also considering building a single sealed version Statement, with the tweeter rotated 90 degrees becouse the speaker will be sitting on its side. This would be a biiiig center, but definately acceptable. would the sound dispersion be ok in this config?

Any other options I should consider?
TIA!

[kingpin]

You are definetely gonna have to give me a listen to those.
Nice to see someone in my part of the 'hood doing this also.

Don't you love the screw-in inserts? I tossed the t-nuts away quickly when I built "project overkill".

Good work man!

Mike

[Jim Holtz]

I'm starting the planning for the center now. Honestly, I'm not a huge fan of the look of the current Statement center, it seems dwarfed and outclassed when sitting next to the full sized Statements. Visual appeal seems a little silly of a reason to chose one center over another, but it is a factor in my decision making never the less.

That being said, I'd like to build a center which has the Neocd3.0, but has 2 of the W4 mids, and 2 woofers, whether they be the RS225's or the RS180's.

I like the look of Frodaddy's custom center, but would rather keep the mids open backed like the L&R. I've got tons of room to play with at the front end of my room, it's going to be 15' wide, with only the LCR and a 3-channel amp to drive them all at the front (plus screen)

I'm also considering building a single sealed version Statement, with the tweeter rotated 90 degrees becouse the speaker will be sitting on its side. This would be a biiiig center, but definately acceptable. would the sound dispersion be ok in this config?

Any other options I should consider?
TIA!

OK, lets talk...

1st, I would not recommend laying a Statement on it's side. It won't give you the sound quality you're looking for.

The open back on the mid in the center is going to offer the least benefit of any in the Statements series speakers, IMHO. The center anchors the sound to the screen in home theater. Multi channel music would benefit from the open back, however.

I think Jed's center is your solution if you want something more visually dominating than the Statements center but it won't be open back. If multi channel isn't the most important music you listen too, I'd recommend it. BTW, it'll do a great job on multi channel too. :W

Jim

[FroDaddy]

I concur with Jim. Something to think about... for the custom Statement center the mid network didn't change from the towers. So if you wanted to, you could open up the back since the cabinet is deep enough to build pass-through mid tunnels.

Another idea is to widen and/or deepen the cabinet to achieve the same volume as the Statement towers for the woofers. You'd need to keep the driver array spacing the same, so the overall look might be a bit odd at that point. I don't find a problem having the RS225's in a smaller sealed cabinet. (By "smaller" I'm comparing it to a Statement tower; for a CC the cabinet is big at nearly 3 feet in width.) The RS225's provide great dynamics for movies that are action heavy with CC info. It will absolutely play loud like a Statement tower but just not quite as deep. When built according to the drawings I recommend crossing it over at 60Hz.

A third and best idea is to buy an acoustically transparent screen and put a third Statement tower behind it. You wouldn't really need to put a finish on it, probably just rough up the cabinet and spray it with flat black. A friend has LCR Khan towers and enjoys having three of the same speakers up front. You'd literally have the definition of seamless tonal balance and voicing this way

EDIT: I just read through your thread a bit more. You could cross the custom Statement center over at 40Hz if you wanted to; it is down -7dB on the graph at 40Hz. If the room pictured is where it would be, I'd say you'd get a decent in-room gain from the close boundaries. Also from the pic it looks like you're setup already with a screen so perhaps the 3rd tower wouldn't work out.

Just throwing out another idea at you... I don't know if you'd want to do this, but you could throw together the custom Statement cabinet for testing purposes. Gut one of your Statement towers since you already have the drivers, and the crossovers are nearly the same vice the tweeter circuit is a bit different. But if you build the test cabinet with a sealed mid chamber, make sure to deaden the chamber with foam and polyfill. (I cover this in the build thread.)

Hopefully I'm not helping TOO much

[soundemon]

Thanks a ton guys!

Jim - I listen to very little multichannel music, (OK, none at all :E :lol: ) so the center will be just for dialogue and panning effects in movies and games.

Frodaddy - thanks for the info! I'll definately be building a horizontal center, and your design looks like it might be the one! It'll be going in a much wider room so I might have to cross at 80Hz, but I can do some experimenting with that when it's built.

Cheers!

[soundemon]

I'm about to start veneering my cabinets, I'm going to go with a nice walnut that I got for pretty cheap off E-bay, because it's only 5" - 6" wide. I've veneered quite a few sample pieces and I think my technique for edge matching is getting to the point where I'm comfortable starting the job.

I'm still looking at a 1/2" roundover on all my cabinets. I wonder if there's anyone in the GTA with a router and 3/4" roundover bit who might give me a hand turning my 1/2" roundovers into 3/4"? I'd make it worth your while (case of beer, bottle of your choice etc) TIA!

Here's some of my samples, 2 of walnut with different stains, and on of a waterfall "anigre" I bought because it was cheap and I was already paying for shipping...

[john trials]

It's a little bit of labor, but the 3/4" roundover can be sanded, if you can't find someone with a router and bit.

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php?p=469714&postcount=34

I chamfered my edges (with a small router, but a circular saw would work, too), then used a hand-sanding board (automotive body tool shown in the photo) to remove the remaining material. The roundover is very uniform. I never would have thought the roundover could be this good by sanding it, but it is really nice.

I just started working with some test pieces of veneer, too. I'll probably start veneering my Statements this weekend. Your walnut looks nice (I like the darker stain).

[soundemon]

veneer done!

At long last I've finished the veneer for this project! I used Walnut veneer, raw realwood veneer, non paperbacked. I also got it in 6" wide sheets off E-bay. This made the job pretty difficult, but not terribly expensive. Enough veneer for a full LCR cost me $25 including shipping. (the glue cost me more than the veneer... :roll: )

Laying out the sheets to check for grain matching: (this many plus 2 more for the 3 sides of one speaker, not including top)



I sanded the whole cabinet agan with 80 grit paying special attention to the 1/2" roundovers.



I found that good technique for working with the raw veneer was a pretty thin layer of glue on the veneer itself, and a much thicker layer on the cabinet. Too much glue on the veneer and it would warp and curl, and also crack very easily. Also getting a good thick layer of glue close to the edges of the cabinet is of paramount importance. I'd put a layer on, and then add another layer to the edges.

Getting started:



around the bend:



I found that trimming each piece after application was much easier than waiting till the end. Trimming neatly was one of the major hassles in working with raw. I'd trim close and then use a (non powered) palm sander to match it up.



Application done and first sanding with 240 grit



For finishing I did a ton of experimenting and found a polyurethane that had stain "built in". I did a coat of poly with stain, sanded with 240, another coat of poly w stain, scrub with double-zero steel wool, then an application of regular semi-gloss polyurethane, and finally a scrub with 0000 Super-fine steel wool.

after the first application



bases and bottoms are peel-and-stick flat black from PE



I was going to veneer the bases but my wife convinced me to go all black. with dark carpeting, it will look like the speakers are floating. (I dig that)

Finished: (sadly my camera is terrible, they look way better in person)



edging: (also looks better in person)



with my Daughter. She doesn't like pants. I'm in trouble.



and a couple of them in place:

[Jim Holtz]

Beautiful job! :T

Jim

[TacoD]

Great job, I really like the black base in combination with the veneer.

p.s. your daughter is half the size of the loudspeaker

[Evil Twin]

veneer done!

At long last I've finished the veneer for this project! I used Walnut veneer, raw realwood veneer, non paperbacked. I also got it in 6" wide sheets off E-bay. This made the job pretty difficult, but not terribly expensive. Enough veneer for a full LCR cost me $25 including shipping. (the glue cost me more than the veneer... :roll: )

Laying out the sheets to check for grain matching: (this many plus 2 more for the 3 sides of one speaker, not including top)



I sanded the whole cabinet agan with 80 grit paying special attention to the 1/2" roundovers.



I found that good technique for working with the raw veneer was a pretty thin layer of glue on the veneer itself, and a much thicker layer on the cabinet. Too much glue on the veneer and it would warp and curl, and also crack very easily. Also getting a good thick layer of glue close to the edges of the cabinet is of paramount importance. I'd put a layer on, and then add another layer to the edges.

Getting started:



around the bend:



I found that trimming each piece after application was much easier than waiting till the end. Trimming neatly was one of the major hassles in working with raw. I'd trim close and then use a (non powered) palm sander to match it up.



Application done and first sanding with 240 grit



For finishing I did a ton of experimenting and found a polyurethane that had stain "built in". I did a coat of poly with stain, sanded with 240, another coat of poly w stain, scrub with double-zero steel wool, then an application of regular semi-gloss polyurethane, and finally a scrub with 0000 Super-fine steel wool.

after the first application



bases and bottoms are peel-and-stick flat black from PE



I was going to veneer the bases but my wife convinced me to go all black. with dark carpeting, it will look like the speakers are floating. (I dig that)

Finished: (sadly my camera is terrible, they look way better in person)



edging: (also looks better in person)



with my Daughter. She doesn't like pants. I'm in trouble.



and a couple of them in place:





__________________
DIY - once you start down that (dark) path, forever will it dominate your destiny!

Excellent work, and a most worthy signature...

[Silversmoky]

Beautiful! Nice Work Your seams on the veneer look really smooth and tight.

[dumaresq]

At least your daughter wears underwear... both of my are constantly nakkid drives me nuts!

[john trials]

Wow. Those look so nice. I like the long straight grain of the veneer. It's amazing that you joined the pieces of veneer. I don't think I could do something like that without leaving gaps.

[locojones]

I particularly like the choice of the chromed screws holding the drivers in place! For whatever reason, it looks fancier than black ones.

[jagman]

Have you decided what you will do for the CC yet?

[soundemon]

Thanks for the comments everyone!
John - the joining of the pieces was an evolutionary process, and I went thru about 6 or 7 test pieces (planks, off-cuts, even my tablesaw outfeed extender-table!) before I felt comfortable starting on the mains. Even then I had to putty most of the joints. thru experimentation I found a good putty which colourmatches very well, unless the seam is too wide.

locojones - I'm interested in your comment about the screws - I had planned to replace the chrome with black on at least the daytons and fountek, but now not so sure!

Jagman - I'm using Frodaddy's design, and have already built and veneered the cabinet, just haven't bought the components yet!

[jagman]

That will be nice. I thought of doing Frodaddy's CC but having the open back for the mids and extending the width and depth of the cabinet so it matches the towers (and of course porting the RS225's). The main reason I didn't do it is I moved and the the HT in the new house doesn't allow for the placement the Statement line-up needs.

[Coconutout]

I particularly like the choice of the chromed screws holding the drivers in place! For whatever reason, it looks fancier than black ones.

wow, clean work. they look beautiful! congrats.

this might sound tacky but... I imagine golden screws would look the best. i come about with this conclusion from googling antique furnitures and finding the ones with golden inlays look the fanciest and just 'right'. the swing arms on grandfather clocks are usually brass, not chrome- i'm guessing cosmetics being no small reason of it. definitely not an easy find but brass screws perhaps? this is what i'll be trying with my statement monitors build along with hardwood cabinets. parts arriving next week- all jentzsen supreme caps for non woofer circuits! :B it was costly but will be glorious.