My experience today at my local Rotel dealer

[Alex999]

I went to my local dealer to audition some CD players. They wouldn't let me audition CD players I was interested in at my home so I asked them to set up a Rotel amp with a pair of B&W 805S speakers and Transparent cables so the setup can be as close to my system at home. I have RMB-1095, RSP-1066, B&W 805S speakers and transparent cables.

When I got there, they had Rotel RB-1072 amp + RC1082 preamp with a pair of B&W 805 speakers and transparent interconnect/speakers cables. Of course they had both CD players I was interested in connected to Rotel.

I put my first CD in one of the CD players I was interested in and I could NOT believe how bad the sound was. I realized it was nothing to do with the source and I tried the other one and got the same result.

I asked my salesman what was wrong with the system as I wasn't able to focus on auditioning CD players. The sound was so bad and so muddy ....

My salesman explained to me that RB-1072 is a digital amp and that is not as good as RMB-1092 which is analog?!? Guys I'm not an expert but I would not touch anything "class D" with a with a 10' pole. I left without making up my mind about CD players because I wasn't able to listen that thing, it was that bad 8O . If I had auditioned my 805S speakers with this amp I would have never purchased them thinking they were horrible speakers.

I came back home and listened to my Rotel 1095 amp + RSP 1066 + B&W 805S speakers. It was wonderful, it was like 100X better than that awful digital amp at my dealer.

I never thought that anything Rotel makes can sound that bad. I have all Rotel components including an old Rotel CD player. Am I missing something here? I'm really confused.

[Alaric]

Perhaps he was trying to sell you an amp? B&O's ICE switching isn't usually considered junk. Maybe the demo room was just set up poorly. While I'm not a fan of the "digital" amps , I haven't heard of a review as bad as yours regarding them-not even close. Something was amiss somewhere in the set-up. IMO.

[Alex999]

Perhaps he was trying to sell you an amp? B&O's ICE switching isn't usually considered junk. Maybe the demo room was just set up poorly. While I'm not a fan of the "digital" amps , I haven't heard of a review as bad as yours regarding them-not even close. Something was amiss somewhere in the set-up. IMO.

I said I was confused as my intention wasn't to bash Rotel "digital" amp. I went to audition CD players, remember, :lol: ?. I love Rotel stuff. However, after today's experience I'd never purchase any "digital" amp. You are probably right about the set-up, but still ... The room was treated better than my living room, the speakers were the same, the cables were the same, I don't think the preamp was the problem, so I don't know. I'm really not exaggerating and I do NOT have golden ears (not that I know of :lol: ).

[hifiguymi]

The RB-1072 is not a "digital" amp. There is nothing digital about it. It's a class D amp. It may be that you just didn't like that amp. I do like the Rotel class D amps better than the class A/B amps for the most part, but it does depend on the system. As a whole, the system may not have been to your liking and that's the way it goes sometimes. Most of the time room (as Lee pointed out) and cables have a big impact on the overall system sound so I would try again to demo the CD players at home. Did you ask them if you could "purchase" (pay for it on a credit card and refund it when you bring it back or just put the money towards the one you do purchase) the demo over the weekend to listen to it at home? It would be to bad if they didn't want your business enough to not do that.

Eric

[N2siast]

People always assume the Rotel class D amps are 100% digital. Not true. It is an analog controlled Class D amplifer. It has an analog input signal with a digital switching power supply.
As hifiguymi explained, sometimes lack of synergy in equipment combo will produce an incohorent sound as you describe.

[htsteve]

Wierd

Alex999,

I've had both Rotel AB and class D amps. I did not experience the bad sound that you did. I've owned the 1095, 1080 and 1077 (class D) amps. I thought the 1080 was cleaner and had better stage than the 1095. I used it to drive my mains at the time (N804's).

For me, the 1077 was similar to the 1080 in performance, but in a multichannel setup. It worked quite well in my setup. The size and cool temps were also things I was looking for.

Also, you reference a RMB-1092. Is that supposed to be a RMB-1095, which is analog? I don't think there is a RMB-1092. There is a RB-1092, which is a 500 wpc stereo class D amp. Quite a beast, from what I've read.

BTW, many subs have class D amps. My velodyne DD18 has a 1250 watt class D amp, with 3,000 watt peak. Works VERY well.

I did have a Rotel pre-amp for all of these amps.


I wouldn't write off class D amps. I think something was amiss at the dealer. That's just wierd.



Hope this helps.

[Hdale85]

Class D shouldn't really sound "worse" then A/B. It will sound different for sure. Something had to be setup wrong or something. Also as others said there really is no such thing as a real Digital amp.

[bleeding ears]

Alex, you said it sounded muddy ?

Do you run your rsp 1066 with speakers set to small ?

This could be where you hear the muddy sound with a 2 channel preamp as there is no speaker crossover to eliminate any unwanted bass.

I have brought up this 2 channel preamp Vs Processors before on the Forum and have found myself that using a processor enables me to adjust the sound exactly to my liking unlike a 2 channel preamp that does not have this ability.

I find I get too much bass and boom with no crossovers working.

Maybe this is why you heard a muddy sound in the audition ?

I doubt very much that the amp was to blame, unless it was faulty or something was wrong somewhere in the system.

Pete

[Alex999]

Alex, you said it sounded muddy ?

Do you run your rsp 1066 with speakers set to small ?

This could be where you hear the muddy sound with a 2 channel preamp as there is no speaker crossover to eliminate any unwanted bass.

I have brought up this 2 channel preamp Vs Processors before on the Forum and have found myself that using a processor enables me to adjust the sound exactly to my liking unlike a 2 channel preamp that does not have this ability.

I find I get too much bass and boom with no crossovers working.

Maybe this is why you heard a muddy sound in the audition ?

I doubt very much that the amp was to blame, unless it was faulty or something was wrong somewhere in the system.

Pete

You could be on something here although my speakers at home are set as large tho as I don't have a sub. I did here too much boom as you described it. My setup at home works perfectly tho. It's very clear and bass is tight. It could be a stereo preamp but it still doesn't make sense to me.

Just to clarify this one more time. My system at home is:
Rotel RMB-1095 amp
Rotel RSP-1066 preamp
B&W 805S speakers (set as Large)
Transparent Music Wave cables and Transparent Music Link interconnect cables.

The system at my dealer was:
Rotel RB 1072 apm
Rotel RC 1082 preamp
B&W 805S speakers
Transparent cables

I'm not sure if it was the amp or the preamp but the sound was too muddy, too much boom. It's hard to describe it. I find this very wierd. That's why I'm sharing my experience with you guys.

[Alex999]

The RB-1072 is not a "digital" amp. There is nothing digital about it. It's a class D amp. It may be that you just didn't like that amp. I do like the Rotel class D amps better than the class A/B amps for the most part, but it does depend on the system. As a whole, the system may not have been to your liking and that's the way it goes sometimes. Most of the time room (as Lee pointed out) and cables have a big impact on the overall system sound so I would try again to demo the CD players at home. Did you ask them if you could "purchase" (pay for it on a credit card and refund it when you bring it back or just put the money towards the one you do purchase) the demo over the weekend to listen to it at home? It would be to bad if they didn't want your business enough to not do that.

Eric

My salesman described RB1072 as a "digital" amp. I do know what you are talking about. Unfortunately they wouldn't let me pay for a CD player and audition it at home although they know me and I spent over $7000.00 there.

[BassThatHz]

It is impossible to know which component was faulty (or by design), unless you took the time to swap each part in and out until the issue was positively identified?

Once identified, you would then have to ensure that at least one other unit of that type sounded the same to infer that it was by-design, as opposed to an abused unit or defect.

[Alex999]

Rotel RSP 1066 preamp is a component that I really want to change soon plus I really need a new CD player as my old one is about to die. However, I do have some new appreciation for 1066 after what I experienced yesterday.

Maybe it was something to do with the dealer setup or something was faulty. As I said, I decided to share this experience just because I found it extremely strange, that's all.

[Alex999]

Alex999,

I've had both Rotel AB and class D amps. I did not experience the bad sound that you did. I've owned the 1095, 1080 and 1077 (class D) amps. I thought the 1080 was cleaner and had better stage than the 1095. I used it to drive my mains at the time (N804's).

For me, the 1077 was similar to the 1080 in performance, but in a multichannel setup. It worked quite well in my setup. The size and cool temps were also things I was looking for.

Also, you reference a RMB-1092. Is that supposed to be a RMB-1095, which is analog? I don't think there is a RMB-1092. There is a RB-1092, which is a 500 wpc stereo class D amp. Quite a beast, from what I've read.

BTW, many subs have class D amps. My velodyne DD18 has a 1250 watt class D amp, with 3,000 watt peak. Works VERY well.

I did have a Rotel pre-amp for all of these amps.


I wouldn't write off class D amps. I think something was amiss at the dealer. That's just wierd.



Hope this helps.

Steve, my amp is RMB-1095. The one at my dealer was a Rotel RB-1072, one of those new tiny class D amps. Here is the link.

http://www.rotel.com/NA/products/ProductDetails.htm?Id=38

[Kevin D]

I know you said the room was treated, but how far from the walls were the speakers?

Kevin D.

[Alex999]

I know you said the room was treated, but how far from the walls were the speakers?

Kevin D.

Kevin, the speakers were approximately 3 feet from the back wall and 5 feet from the side walls.

[PewterTA]

I went and demoed the 805s at a place and the room and with the amplification they were using, they sounded terrible. My 602s3s sounded 100x better than them. That's why when you go to demo, you need to tell them how you want it hooked up to emulate your home setup. If you do that you get a much better sense of how a speaker or equipment sounds.

Course the in home demo can't be beat! :T

[Mikael]

Hi Alex999

It could be the room at the dealer, but you should know that the RC1082 has a more full and heavy bass compared to the RSP1066 which is lacking in the lower bass.That could be one of the reasons and maybe the RC 1082 was turned up at the bass conture.

[Alaric]

I don't think I would set the 805s as 'large'. Set at 'small' and expect the bass to be shy. If you're auditioning CD players , you're listening for detail without grain or harshness , right? Smooth , yet detailed mids ? IMO. I've been wrong before.

[Alex999]

Hi Alex999

It could be the room at the dealer, but you should know that the RC1082 has a more full and heavy bass compared to the RSP1066 which is lacking in the lower bass.That could be one of the reasons and maybe the RC 1082 was turned up at the bass conture.

Maybe, I didn't pay attention to be honest with you. I don't think it's anything to do with the RC1082 but I'm not sure. Bass was .. like BOOM, BOOM, BOOM, it was just horrible. My system sounds great. Bass is defined and tight. Sure 805S are not 800D (which I had an opportunity to audition with some Mac mono blocks - it was awesome btw :T ).

[Alex999]

I don't think I would set the 805s as 'large'. Set at 'small' and expect the bass to be shy. If you're auditioning CD players , you're listening for detail without grain or harshness , right? Smooth , yet detailed mids ? IMO. I've been wrong before.

I don't have a sub, so my speakers have to be set as large and they are great that way. I love my b&w 805S, they are IMHO amazing speakers. I don't have a problem with bass with my set up, it's just right as I mentioned already. This is not about my system. My system sounds great, I'm happy with it although I do want to get a new preamp next year as my RSP-1066 is getting old.

This is about what I experienced at my dealer, a "similar" setup that sounded bad and I don't understand why.

You are right about CD players tho. I was looking for that detailed smooth sound etc... The problem is I wasn't able to focus on the CD players I was interested in as everything just sounded so bad so I gave up and left.

[rockbobmel]

Did you get the CDP? Wanna nice one? Here for $300. you can't beat it for that.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....-Silver-finish.



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