Tired of waiting on Rotel, pre-ordered the Integra DTC 9.8 pre/pro

[TommyV]

Ron, Yes the PS3 does decode True HD, DD+, Hi rez PCM and DTS HD 1.5mbps core internally. That is why I was referring to not needing the decoders in the processor. The PS3 as far as I know does not have the ability to bitstream advanced codecs for decoding in the processor even though the PS3 is HDMI 1.3. If the rumor you heard is true, then that would pretty much completely remove the need for an HDMI 1.3 processor with the new decoders. Any HDMI 1.1 or 1.2 audio capable processor (the 1069) would do it all. The only thing beyond that is the argument of what is better, decoding in the player or the processor. Panasonic and the much more expensive Denon and Marantz players announced for this year come with DTS-HD, MA and every other codec decoding on board out of the box.

Nice review BTW, I enjoyed reading it. I really need to pick up that DMB Blu-ray disc. They did not have it at any of the local stores so I have been meaning to order from Amazon.

[bigbang]

1st off, thanks for the review Ron. :T

I'm in the boat where I need to upgrade from a non-HDMI pre/pro. I was/am on the fence between the 9.8 or the Rotel. I knew the Rotels limitations with hdmi, but knew I would be happy with my 2 chnl listening.

If I can get the features of the 9.8 and still be in the same ballpark as the Rotel with 2 chnl, I'd be one happy camper!

Please keep us posted on your findings.

[Dmantis]

Ron, Yes the PS3 does decode True HD, DD+, Hi rez PCM and DTS HD 1.5mbps core internally. That is why I was referring to not needing the decoders in the processor. The PS3 as far as I know does not have the ability to bitstream advanced codecs for decoding in the processor even though the PS3 is HDMI 1.3. If the rumor you heard is true, then that would pretty much completely remove the need for an HDMI 1.3 processor with the new decoders. Any HDMI 1.1 or 1.2 audio capable processor (the 1069) would do it all. The only thing beyond that is the argument of what is better, decoding in the player or the processor. Panasonic and the much more expensive Denon and Marantz players announced for this year come with DTS-HD, MA and every other codec decoding on board out of the box.

Nice review BTW, I enjoyed reading it. I really need to pick up that DMB Blu-ray disc. They did not have it at any of the local stores so I have been meaning to order from Amazon.

In order to send SACD over HDMI you have to have 1.2 Hdmi according to Sony. So that leaves the 1069 behind on that note. I also thought the PS3 would pass all audio formats via HDMI.
I don't however know how the Xbox360 passes the audio over HDMI. I haven't even done any research on it. I considered buying Stand alone players but I really like the PS3 with Blue and HD DVD seems to be on it's way out. I'm content with the 360 HD DVD.

Thanks for the info.

[Kevin D]

In order to send SACD over HDMI you have to have 1.2 Hdmi according to Sony. So that leaves the 1069 behind on that note. I also thought the PS3 would pass all audio formats via HDMI.

Although Vancouver is currently having issues getting his PS3 to do it, the PS3 will decode the DSM SACD track and send it multi-channel PCM over HDMI 1.1 to the 1069. Rotel has gotten it to work, Vancouver's trying to figure out what's causing his problem.

Kevin D.

[Ron Reda]

Ron,
talk to me. I read and re read your review(well done man). I'm on the fence with it. I'm another guy who uses his system for 2 things, Ht and 2 channel/multichannel. This preamp is an Integra and I have had nothing but bad luck with there products. In the sound department. I have never been impressed.
Now trying to find a preamp that does what I want it to do sticks to find.This one got me all excitied except the name on the front for me personal reasons. Now comparing it to the rsp 1066 is a huge deal for me. I don't have the ability to do it myself or I would.
If you wouldn't mind giving it a few more days of break in and review it again. It's this or a Pioneer Elite receiver as a preamp. I'd rather not go that way but I will if I can't find what I want.
I have Ps3 for Blue and 360 for HD DVD. I need a preamp with the ability to decode the audio which the rsp1069 can't(I'm really killed on that 2 or I would already own it).

thanks so much for the review so far.

Dmantis,

For the past 2 nights, I've left it on playing a multichannel source (DirecTV, HDNet movies in 5.1) and to me, it really seems to be opening up a little bit more. It sounds excellent IMO. If you can tell me what exactly you want me to comment on, I'd be more than happy to oblige.

[Ron Reda]

Ron, Yes the PS3 does decode True HD, DD+, Hi rez PCM and DTS HD 1.5mbps core internally. That is why I was referring to not needing the decoders in the processor. The PS3 as far as I know does not have the ability to bitstream advanced codecs for decoding in the processor even though the PS3 is HDMI 1.3. If the rumor you heard is true, then that would pretty much completely remove the need for an HDMI 1.3 processor with the new decoders. Any HDMI 1.1 or 1.2 audio capable processor (the 1069) would do it all. The only thing beyond that is the argument of what is better, decoding in the player or the processor. Panasonic and the much more expensive Denon and Marantz players announced for this year come with DTS-HD, MA and every other codec decoding on board out of the box.

Nice review BTW, I enjoyed reading it. I really need to pick up that DMB Blu-ray disc. They did not have it at any of the local stores so I have been meaning to order from Amazon.

You're right, my bad! This whole internal decoding/bitstream/PCM thing has been mixing me up lately.

Cool...thanks! Stop reading this and order that disc! It's seriously that good. I'm not sure if you're familiar with any of Tim Reynolds work, but the way his guitar sounds seem to hang in mid-air on that disc is simply breathtaking.

[TommyV]

Although Vancouver is currently having issues getting his PS3 to do it, the PS3 will decode the DSM SACD track and send it multi-channel PCM over HDMI 1.1 to the 1069. Rotel has gotten it to work, Vancouver's trying to figure out what's causing his problem.

Kevin D.

Kevin is correct here. DSD is basically the name of the codec that SACD uses like True HD on HD DVD/Blu-ray. All PS3s except the 40gig can decode the DSD audio and send it as digital PCM similar to what they do with True HD audio on HD movies. 1.2 is only required if you want to bitstream the DSD signal directly off the SACD and have your processor do the decoding. Oppo players are also able to decode DSD on SACDs and send it digital PCM via HDMI. whew man thats a lot of acronyms

[Ron Reda]

In order to send SACD over HDMI you have to have 1.2 Hdmi according to Sony. So that leaves the 1069 behind on that note. I also thought the PS3 would pass all audio formats via HDMI.

That's one thing I haven't tried as the PS3 I have in my HT is the stripped down 40GB one. I may have to just swap the one we have in our living room system and give it a try. :B

[Ron Reda]

Kevin is correct here. DSD is basically the name of the codec that SACD uses like True HD on HD DVD/Blu-ray. All PS3s except the 40gig can decode the DSD audio and send it as digital PCM similar to what they do with True HD audio on HD movies. 1.2 is only required if you want to bitstream the DSD signal directly off the SACD and have your processor do the decoding. Oppo players are also able to decode DSD on SACDs and send it digital PCM via HDMI. whew man thats a lot of acronyms

Crap, OK here goes...so theoretically, I can send the "undecoded" DSD signal from a SACD playing in my PS3 to my Integra and have it decode the DSD signal without any PCM conversion?

[TommyV]

You're right, my bad! This whole internal decoding/bitstream/PCM thing has been mixing me up lately.

Cool...thanks! Stop reading this and order that disc! It's seriously that good. I'm not sure if you're familiar with any of Tim Reynolds work, but the way his guitar sounds seem to hang in mid-air on that disc is simply breathtaking.

I just placed the order along with a David Gilmore Blu-ray disc that looks interesting. I have the 2 CD set of Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds. It is one of my all time favorites and Tim is an amazing guitarist. He has magic fingers :B

[Blindamood]

Ah, the David Gilmour blu-ray disc is sweet...you're gonna love it. One of the coolest parts (in addition to Gilmour's guitar genius) is the backing vocals of Crosby and Nash.

[Dmantis]

That's one thing I haven't tried as the PS3 I have in my HT is the stripped down 40GB one. I may have to just swap the one we have in our living room system and give it a try. :B

Ron,
I own Rotel from a 2ch first(then) and HT 2nd prospective. I owned B&K before Rotel and Switched to Rotel due to the liking of how Rotel sounds on my then new speakers(Dynaudio). I came from polk Lsi series.
Now Buying a Integra for a preamp I'm looking without being able to test it myself yet is it's ability to be musical. I still want my cake and eat it with any changes I do to my system. I do however know it's not the best way to get both jobs done. But I also enjoy alot multichannel audio. Sacd and cd are important to me so Audio quality of my future new preamp is very important.
I was looking for complete honest opnion of the audio quality of this preamp. I have had no sadisfaction with Integra in the past but that experience is with there receivers.

Thanks man.

[Dmantis]

Although Vancouver is currently having issues getting his PS3 to do it, the PS3 will decode the DSM SACD track and send it multi-channel PCM over HDMI 1.1 to the 1069. Rotel has gotten it to work, Vancouver's trying to figure out what's causing his problem.

Kevin D.

I wonder what the problem is?? I however have not tried as I still own the rsp1068 and can't. Ps3 only sends SACD over HDMI. There is no other way to send it. They should have put a 6 channel out on it but it's a game system, multimedia unit not a deadicated Blue ray Sacd player so I understand. It would however have been nice and I would have spent another 100 buck to have such flexibility. I have the 80g version by the way.

[Dmantis]

TommyV,

Ok how do you know how the Ps3 is sending or not sending audio? I haven't found that info one way or another yet. I plan on calling our Sony rep to get the low down. If you are correct, so far I can see owning the Rotel rsp1069 and being cool.
I do however have a 2nd problem that could easily be solved with a deadicated player. But for now I use the HDMI version Xbox 360 with the external drive HD DVD.
How does that send audio? Is it just downconverted Lpcm or bitsteam over HDMI and needs to be decoded at the preamp side? Again I have not researched this and plan on digging deeper but I seems like you have already done your homework.

I'm a custom audio and video Installer and work around 1.3 receivers. All of our receiver are now 1.3. So I don't get to see 1.1 preamps or receivers anymore and get a chance to test all this myself. I have however Installed all the version of HDMI switching pre's and receivers but alot of them didn't have any HD dvd players. Back then we got away from HDMI due to all the problems and with DVI. We simply switched Component for everything with great results. Monitors where only 1080i anyway.
Thanks up front for any more info on this cool but fustrating subject.

[TommyV]

TommyV,

Ok how do you know how the Ps3 is sending or not sending audio? I haven't found that info one way or another yet. I plan on calling our Sony rep to get the low down. If you are correct, so far I can see owning the Rotel rsp1069 and being cool.
I do however have a 2nd problem that could easily be solved with a deadicated player. But for now I use the HDMI version Xbox 360 with the external drive HD DVD.
How does that send audio? Is it just downconverted Lpcm or bitsteam over HDMI and needs to be decoded at the preamp side? Again I have not researched this and plan on digging deeper but I seems like you have already done your homework.

I'm a custom audio and video Installer and work around 1.3 receivers. All of our receiver are now 1.3. So I don't get to see 1.1 preamps or receivers anymore and get a chance to test all this myself. I have however Installed all the version of HDMI switching pre's and receivers but alot of them didn't have any HD dvd players. Back then we got away from HDMI due to all the problems and with DVI. We simply switched Component for everything with great results. Monitors where only 1080i anyway.
Thanks up front for any more info on this cool but fustrating subject.

I spend way too many hours reading threads over in AVS :W As far as I know the Oppo 980 is the first and may be the only player that can send DSD directly off the disc to be decoded in the processor.

[Blindamood]

I spend way too many hours reading threads over in AVS :W As far as I know the Oppo 980 is the first and may be the only player that can send DSD directly off the disc to be decoded in the processor.

The new Pioneer Elite DV-58av can also. It is HDMI 1.2. I heard of another one the other day, but cannot remember it right now.

[Ron Reda]

I spend way too many hours reading threads over in AVS :W As far as I know the Oppo 980 is the first and may be the only player that can send DSD directly off the disc to be decoded in the processor.

I also read this same thing (about the Oppo) in the review of the Integra & Oppo as a system in the January '08 issue of Stereophile. The reviewer loved it.

[Ron Reda]

Ron,
I own Rotel from a 2ch first(then) and HT 2nd prospective. I owned B&K before Rotel and Switched to Rotel due to the liking of how Rotel sounds on my then new speakers(Dynaudio). I came from polk Lsi series.
Now Buying a Integra for a preamp I'm looking without being able to test it myself yet is it's ability to be musical. I still want my cake and eat it with any changes I do to my system. I do however know it's not the best way to get both jobs done. But I also enjoy alot multichannel audio. Sacd and cd are important to me so Audio quality of my future new preamp is very important.
I was looking for complete honest opnion of the audio quality of this preamp. I have had no sadisfaction with Integra in the past but that experience is with there receivers.

Thanks man.

Dmantis,

This was one of the most important things for me, how it sounds on analog redbook CD and over the multi ins for SACD/DVD-A. I'd be lying if I said that the 9.8 is 100% unequivocally on par with the Rotel 1066 in terms of it's musical quality as of today. However, for me right now, it's a "damn close enough" scenario. Two important things to note are (a) today is Tuesday; I just got it into my system very late Saturday and haven't had a true, uninterrupted, crack open a bottle of Pinot Noir, "try every conceivable well-recorded CD in my collection" listening session and (b) have not even BEGUN to mess with the Audyssey piece of the puzzle. I also have not had a chance to run my DAC digital out to the Integra to gauge how it sounds versus the analog connections I am currently using. So, my initial impressions are just that, initial. From what I heard on Sunday when I posted my review, I am very pleased with how things sounded, especially with the new audio codecs. But, when you factor in everything else that the 9.8 does, it easily trumps the 1066.

PS - One more thing...I knew going in that the 9.8 was a digital beast. In order to bring things up to speed in my HT system, I presumed I may have to sacrifice some level of sound quality as a trade off for HDMI switching, decoding of the new codecs, Audyssey processing, etc. That being said, I'd do it all over again without hesitation.

[Dmantis]

Dmantis,

This was one of the most important things for me, how it sounds on analog redbook CD and over the multi ins for SACD/DVD-A. I'd be lying if I said that the 9.8 is 100% unequivocally on par with the Rotel 1066 in terms of it's musical quality as of today. However, for me right now, it's a "damn close enough" scenario. Two important things to note are (a) today is Tuesday; I just got it into my system very late Saturday and haven't had a true, uninterrupted, crack open a bottle of Pinot Noir, "try every conceivable well-recorded CD in my collection" listening session and (b) have not even BEGUN to mess with the Audyssey piece of the puzzle. I also have not had a chance to run my DAC digital out to the Integra to gauge how it sounds versus the analog connections I am currently using. So, my initial impressions are just that, initial. From what I heard on Sunday when I posted my review, I am very pleased with how things sounded, especially with the new audio codecs. But, when you factor in everything else that the 9.8 does, it easily trumps the 1066.

PS - One more thing...I knew going in that the 9.8 was a digital beast. In order to bring things up to speed in my HT system, I presumed I may have to sacrifice some level of sound quality as a trade off for HDMI switching, decoding of the new codecs, Audyssey processing, etc. That being said, I'd do it all over again without hesitation.

Very cool man. I gotta go find one and give it a test drive. Jump right in and see what happens. hell you never know unless you try.

I'll be waiting for any further reviews on this.

Thanks again man.

[Tim_D]

While I do understand why Rotel may want to wait before committing to an HD player, I don’t understand why rotel takes so long to come to the market with new technology for its processors. I realise the standard arguments that it is a small company, cannot compete with Denon, wait till the technology it is right etc.etc. But with the company being owned by the same company that owns Classe and B&W there should be plenty of money available, at least for a refresh of its 1098 processor once every so often, and I'm not talking about a half-arsed HDMI 'switcher' either.

The 1098 needs HDMI 1.3, it needs HD decoding and it needs to be able to calibrate speakers for any input, including PCM over HDMI.

Does anyone here have any "insider" news on when Rotel may be coming out with a new pre/pro which has the latest codecs, HDMI 1.3, etc...?

[Ron Reda]

I can't imagine it's going to be anytime soon.

[Tim_D]

I can't imagine it's going to be anytime soon.

I'm wondering if we are talking 2008 or 2009 (or beyond) timeframe.....

[TommyV]

I would say 09 at the soonest. Doubt we will see anything this year.

[ricky_rocket]

Dmantis,

This was one of the most important things for me, how it sounds on analog redbook CD and over the multi ins for SACD/DVD-A. I'd be lying if I said that the 9.8 is 100% unequivocally on par with the Rotel 1066 in terms of it's musical quality as of today. However, for me right now, it's a "damn close enough" scenario. Two important things to note are (a) today is Tuesday; I just got it into my system very late Saturday and haven't had a true, uninterrupted, crack open a bottle of Pinot Noir, "try every conceivable well-recorded CD in my collection" listening session and (b) have not even BEGUN to mess with the Audyssey piece of the puzzle.

Please keep us posted as you break it in. Especially with 2 channel mode. I'm a couple of months away from getting into my first set of separates and as an audiophile Rotel was going to be my first choice for a pre-amp/processor. The Integra does sound like the best deal for the money right now though. Rotel's lagging behind in HDMI/processor technology and the bugs in the RSP-1069 are making me a bit leary.

[Ron Reda]

Please keep us posted as you break it in. Especially with 2 channel mode. I'm a couple of months away from getting into my first set of separates and as an audiophile Rotel was going to be my first choice for a pre-amp/processor. The Integra does sound like the best deal for the money right now though. Rotel's lagging behind in HDMI/processor technology and the bugs in the RSP-1069 are making me a bit leary.

I can't imagine it's still breaking in as it's been installed for a few weeks now, but I would have to say that through the analog CD connections the sound is somewhat "digital" for lack of a better term. While it does indeed sound good, I would have to say that the Rotel sounds a tad better in this regard. HOWEVER, being that this thing is more of a digital (than analog) monster, I will reserve my final judgment until I connect the digital out from my DAC to the 9.8 and see how it does with that signal.

[Dmantis]

I can't imagine it's still breaking in as it's been installed for a few weeks now, but I would have to say that through the analog CD connections the sound is somewhat "digital" for lack of a better term. While it does indeed sound good, I would have to say that the Rotel sounds a tad better in this regard. HOWEVER, being that this thing is more of a digital (than analog) monster, I will reserve my final judgment until I connect the digital out from my DAC to the 9.8 and see how it does with that signal.

If you have a external DAC and it's being feed by a cd player , then you send the digital signal out digital, it's not going to be DAC converted. You may as well take it out of the picture and let the Integra do it's job. Unless your using the DAC as a Barrel.

Dan

[hifiguymi]

Does anyone here have any "insider" news on when Rotel may be coming out with a new pre/pro which has the latest codecs, HDMI 1.3, etc...?

I don't have anything concrete, but CEDIA in September is when Rotel usually launches new products. It may not be ready to ship in September, but I bet they will show a replacement for the RSP-1098 and RSX-1067.

Eric

[Ron Reda]

If you have a external DAC and it's being feed by a cd player , then you send the digital signal out digital, it's not going to be DAC converted. You may as well take it out of the picture and let the Integra do it's job. Unless your using the DAC as a Barrel.

Dan

Duh, my bad. It's been a long day. Not sure what I was thinking. ops:

[Dmantis]

Duh, my bad. It's been a long day. Not sure what I was thinking. ops:

LOL , it's all good.

[Ron Reda]

I'm still at work so I can't mess with this right now (hope to tonight), but check out page 5 here: http://www.musicalfidelity.com/manua...324dac_eng.pdf

INPUT CONNECTIONS

However, the digital output socket will
loop any selected digital source for
external processing if required.

OUTPUT CONNECTIONS

The co-axial RCA digital output can also
be connected to suitable external digital
equipment if required.

Does that means it just might upsample then pass the 192kHz signal?

[Ron Reda]

OK, I finally got off my a*s and tried this out. As expected, the digital signal out from the DAC was in fact 44.1kHz as read on the display, so no good on the upsampling to 192kHz. BUT, the coolest thing was that I was easily able to A/B the output from the DAC as the digital connection was still plugged into the DVD in (in "Direct" mode) and the the analog connections were still connected to the CD in (also in "Direct" mode). I A/B'd back and forth a number of times using the same musical passages throughout one song and the verdict is that the DAC is not going anywhere...analog ins it is. Simply put (and w/o using too many cliches), the music sounded a bit more full and defined through the DAC...not night and day, but a noticeable difference. I also think that I actually do need this baby to run a little more as some of that "digitalness" that I wrote about previously has subsided. All in all, a fun experiment!

[Dmantis]

OK, I finally got off my a*s and tried this out. As expected, the digital signal out from the DAC was in fact 44.1kHz as read on the display, so no good on the upsampling to 192kHz. BUT, the coolest thing was that I was easily able to A/B the output from the DAC as the digital connection was still plugged into the DVD in (in "Direct" mode) and the the analog connections were still connected to the CD in (also in "Direct" mode). I A/B'd back and forth a number of times using the same musical passages throughout one song and the verdict is that the DAC is not going anywhere...analog ins it is. Simply put (and w/o using too many cliches), the music sounded a bit more full and defined through the DAC...not night and day, but a noticeable difference. I also think that I actually do need this baby to run a little more as some of that "digitalness" that I wrote about previously has subsided. All in all, a fun experiment!

Cool man. So the Integra doesn't sound as good as the external DAC. Overall with using the external DAC, how does it sound? Do you think owning the Integra preamp coming from Rotel not for the new formats just for plain old 2 channel listening, one could be happy? I guess the answer to this question is a matter of how much you care and how much of a difference there is.

I still have not had the time to get out there and test this preamp myself.

[Ron Reda]

Dan,

No, not as good as with the external DAC in the chain, but keep in mind that I've had that DAC for a long time, so I'm very used to it's sound. Also, it was $1200 new a few years back and the Integra retails for $1600. If someone didn't have that DAC (or something similar) to compare it to against a CD player going directly in, I doubt they'd have any problem at all with the sound. Overall, using it with the external DAC, it sounds great and like I said above, I feel it's still losing some of it's "digitalness" as the days go on, so that's encouraging. I think I may have rushed to judgment by giving my impression a bit too soon. In the case of the Integra, there may be something to the burn-in factor, considering that I hadn't listened to all that much music through it considering the very short time I've owned it. I also think I was so used to the sound of the Rotel that it's taken me a little while to get used to how the Integra sounds. Originally, I may have perceived the Rotel as sounding a tad bit better, but now I think it may have just been because the Integra sounds different, ya know? If you do get out and listen to this piece for yourself, I'd make sure it had been playing a while before you draw a final conclusion. Funny enough, I remember my wife LOATHING the Rotel when I first hooked it up...she thought it sounded WAY digital and very cold, but once it burned in a while, she came to really enjoy it. I expect the exact same impression with this piece after some time.

[Dmantis]

Cool Ron,

Thanks for the info. I can't wait to get out and listen to one myself.

[Ron Reda]

All day long, I've set my CD player on repeat and have played a CD. I'm curious to see what kind of effect this has on the listening session I have planned for later on tonight.

[Ron Reda]

The thread from the dead!

So, just checking in to see how everyone's liking the new RSP-1570 and how it's sound compares to the 1066 & 1068. I love my Integra, but I must admit, I'm missing that beautiful Rotel 2-channel sound when listening via analog connections.