Rsp-1069

[hifiguymi]

Here is the body of an e-mail sent to me from one of the guys in tech support at Rotel. This applies to both the RSX-1058 and RSP-1069.

Just an update on the Blu-ray to RSX-1058.

I confirmed again that bass management is available via HDMI and on all audio modes including DTS-HD and Dolby True HD, which is to say Large/Small/None options, crossovers, delays and levels. Contour, Sub levels and Cinema EQ are available via HMDI on native PCM or Dolby DD/DTS software, including those tracks on the Blu-Ray discs, but NOT with the HD audio signals. Rotel ES and Dolby EX are supported on non HD material, as well.

There is one thing in here that I should clarify. It states that the "Contour, Sub levels and Cinema EQ are available via HDMI on native PCM......but NOT with the HD audio signals". Dolby TrueHD and dtsHD Master Audio have flags on them even after they are decoded to PCM tracks and sent out of the player on the HDMI cable. The processor in the Rotel units will not allow manipulation of those audio steams with things like the Cinema EQ and Rotel ES etc. I know other manufacturers may be able to do it, but the DSP engine in the Rotels will not.

Eric

[Nolan B]

OK thanks help me out here then ... so will a bluray / ps3 output DD-TrueHD or DTS-HD via their analogue outputs ... ? Or can they be passed through as PCM and be processed by the RSP processor.

You wil be able to hear the PCM track sent from your PS3 over HDMI to the rotel 1069. What you wont be able to do is process that signal. i.e. matrix 5.1 to 7.1, bass management etc.

So there are 3 ways to get this source then from a suitable player, HDMI 1.3 (1069 cannot do it), PCM (1069 cannot do it) and anologue output (1069 can do it) correct?

Not correct. PCM (1069 can do it) and anologue output (1069 can do it). HDMI 1.3 is only good if you want your player (only 1 can do it at this point) to send TrueHD or DTS MD bitstream.

So you would use the TrueHD source via anolgue through the 7.1 analogue inputs?

No you dont need to do that. Actually you if you had a movie with a 7.1 track you would have to hook up your HD player via the analgue outputs if you wanted to hear the 7.1. As I understand it the 1069 only accepts 5.1 PCM not 7.1 PCM.

[hifiguymi]

No you dont need to do that. Actually you if you had a movie with a 7.1 track you would have to hook up your HD player via the analgue outputs if you wanted to hear the 7.1. As I understand it the 1069 only accepts 5.1 PCM not 7.1 PCM.

The Rotel will accept 7.1 PCM over HDMI, but there are no discs that have it. I don't know if there ever will be either. Since the penetration of 7.1 systems is still low I don't think the studios will put the effert into 7.1 soundtracks. Beyond that you would have to have a processor that could "downmix" a 7.1 to a 5.1 for the people that have 5.1 systems. Time will tell what will happen, but for now all of the discs are 5.1.

Eric

[Nolan B]

The Rotel will accept 7.1 PCM over HDMI, but there are no discs that have it. I don't know if there ever will be either. Since the penetration of 7.1 systems is still low I don't think the studios will put the effert into 7.1 soundtracks. Beyond that you would have to have a processor that could "downmix" a 7.1 to a 5.1 for the people that have 5.1 systems. Time will tell what will happen, but for now all of the discs are 5.1.

Eric

Thats great to hear that is wil accept 7.1 PCM over HDMI. There are a few discs that have it. Give me some time and ill track down a list.

Here is a list of tittles with greater then 5.1 PCM. They were likely not recorded in 6.1/7.1, but matirxed. Im asure they still sound great.

Crank
The Descent
DIrty Dancing
Delta Farce
Ultimate Avengers collection
National Lampoons Van Wilder
Waiting
Weeds
The lost CIty


source

http://blu-raystats.com/index.php?OrderBy=Audio

[UFObuster]

Thats great to hear that is wil accept 7.1 PCM over HDMI. There are a few discs that have it. Give me some time and ill track down a list.

Here is a list of tittles with greater then 5.1 PCM. They were likely not recorded in 6.1/7.1, but matirxed. Im asure they still sound great.

Crank
The Descent
DIrty Dancing
Delta Farce
Ultimate Avengers collection
National Lampoons Van Wilder
Waiting
Weeds
The lost CIty


source
http://blu-raystats.com/index.php?OrderBy=Audio

Ya'll lost me! Give me a break...flame me if you must....but there have got to be other readers like myself with tons of gear that gotta know WHY anyone cares if you can hear "Delta Farce" in an HD sound mode!...not to mention the others. Does anyone on this forum think that Diana Krall or Alison Krause will be jumping for joy that this sound medium is available now? What about Julia Fischer's performance of the T's violin concerto (SACD)...? Or Miles Davis' reissues (CD)....or the Goldberg Variations (Gould...various) of Bach...? OK, forgive me for steering the thread towards 'content'....I buy this hardware stuff to hear good things....and the music world is filled with types and sub-types of media. Rotel is a competent builder of gear to display an art form. "Hi-def" sound is defined in a number of ways and can be represented as well in several of the existing formats. What's the problem? I'm sure there are other readers who buy into this for the same reason. Time will reveal...and "content is everything". The 1069 will have its place for a niche of buyers that need it at the time they make a purchase. No more, no less. Six months later...the same debate begins.

Disclaimer: the same buzz: If you're the guy who's watching "Batman Returns" a g-zillion times in hi-def...disregard this post.

[scient]

You wil be able to hear the PCM track sent from your PS3 over HDMI to the rotel 1069. What you wont be able to do is process that signal. i.e. matrix 5.1 to 7.1, bass management etc.

I confirmed again that bass management is available via HDMI and on all audio modes including DTS-HD and Dolby True HD, which is to say Large/Small/None options, crossovers, delays and levels.

Vancouver, from what the tech support guy at Rotel told hifiguymi it appears that they can do bass management on the PCM track sent over HDMI

[Nolan B]

Ya'll lost me! Give me a break...flame me if you must....but there have got to be other readers like myself with tons of gear that gotta know WHY anyone cares if you can hear "Delta Farce" in an HD sound mode!...not to mention the others. Does anyone on this forum think that Diana Krall or Alison Krause will be jumping for joy that this sound medium is available now? What about Julia Fischer's performance of the T's violin concerto (SACD)...? Or Miles Davis' reissues (CD)....or the Goldberg Variations (Gould...various) of Bach...? OK, forgive me for steering the thread towards 'content'....I buy this hardware stuff to hear good things....and the music world is filled with types and sub-types of media. Rotel is a competent builder of gear to display an art form. "Hi-def" sound is defined in a number of ways and can be represented as well in several of the existing formats. What's the problem? I'm sure there are other readers who buy into this for the same reason. Time will reveal...and "content is everything". The 1069 will have its place for a niche of buyers that need it at the time they make a purchase. No more, no less. Six months later...the same debate begins.

Disclaimer: the same buzz: If you're the guy who's watching "Batman Returns" a g-zillion times in hi-def...disregard this post.

the point is 7.1 tittles are starting to show up. There is also talk that the Lord of the Ring Tilogy will be 7.1 when it comes to HD.

[Nolan B]

Vancouver, from what the tech support guy at Rotel told hifiguymi it appears that they can do bass management on the PCM track sent over HDMI

well this is good news.

[Mikael]

Hi Hifiguymi

I may be dumb,but first your contact at Rotel say the rsp 1069 can do bass management with pcm over hdmi,and later on he tells you that it cant do bass management with HD audio signals?
Can you explain it to me?

[hifiguymi]

Hi Hifiguymi

I may be dumb,but first your contact at Rotel say the rsp 1069 can do bass management with pcm over hdmi,and later on he tells you that it cant do bass management with HD audio signals?
Can you explain it to me?

It does bass management on everything. It will not to any post processing on soundtracks that originate as Dolby TrueHD or dtsHS Master Audio. That means it will not be able to add Contour, Cinema EQ, Rotel ES, etc. If the disc has a native PCM soundtrack you can to all of those things. The two "HD" audio formats have a flag on them that the DSP engine in the Rotel units will not ignore. That flag will not allow those things to be added to the signal.

Eric

[Nolan B]

It does bass management on everything. It will not to any post processing on soundtracks that originate as Dolby TrueHD or dtsHS Master Audio. That means it will not be able to add Contour, Cinema EQ, Rotel ES, etc. If the disc has a native PCM soundtrack you can to all of those things. The two "HD" audio formats have a flag on them that the DSP engine in the Rotel units will not ignore. That flag will not allow those things to be added to the signal.

Eric

That is interesting. So a Blue Ray with a lossless PCM track will be able to be processed in the 1069? Even matrixed from 5.1 to 7.1?

[hifiguymi]

That is interesting. So a Blue Ray with a lossless PCM track will be able to be processed in the 1069? Even matrixed from 5.1 to 7.1?

That is my understanding, yes.

Eric

[scient]

Guys, I have the next 3 hours to figure out if I want to upgrade to this over my 1056. Help me out here fellas!

[scient]

Looks like i might have till monday morning...

[77engineer]

Has anyone heard whether the on screen menu will be available over HDMI or will you still have to hookup and Svideo or something else to see the OSM?

Trying to do baby steps to get to the one cable solution.l

Thanks
Adam

[hifiguymi]

All of the on screen menus are available on HDMI as well as the analog connections.

Eric

[77engineer]

Thanks for the quick reply I really appreciate your insight into the product.

Adam

[Mikael]

Thank you Hifiguymi.
I got it now.

[Dmantis]

Has anyone heard whether the on screen menu will be available over HDMI or will you still have to hookup and Svideo or something else to see the OSM?

Trying to do baby steps to get to the one cable solution.l

Thanks
Adam

It's one of the benefits of HDMI. The single cable solution not to mention it's digital so interference is cut way down on your overall system. I hate more then anything all the nessary wires from a DVD player with SACD and DVD AUDIO plus component out , digital out and hell a analog out for zone 2 and cd playback. It's just 2 much.
Now if preamps and receivers could use the HDMI for zone 2 as well, I would be extremely happy. Just a few HDMI cables and your done.

Dan

[hifiguymi]

It's one of the benefits of HDMI. The single cable solution not to mention it's digital so interference is cut way down on your overall system. I hate more then anything all the nessary wires from a DVD player with SACD and DVD AUDIO plus component out , digital out and hell a analog out for zone 2 and cd playback. It's just 2 much.
Now if preamps and receivers could use the HDMI for zone 2 as well, I would be extremely happy. Just a few HDMI cables and your done.

Dan

Using HDMI for zone two will probably never work. You have to set up the HDMI output on the source for either multi channel or two channel depending on what you need (multi channel for surround sound processors and receivers and two channel for TV's). Since you need a two channel signal for the second zone you will always need a second set of cables.

Eric

[Dmantis]

Using HDMI for zone two will probably never work. You have to set up the HDMI output on the source for either multi channel or two channel depending on what you need (multi channel for surround sound processors and receivers and two channel for TV's). Since you need a two channel signal for the second zone you will always need a second set of cables.

Eric

Wishful thinking on my part. I'm a custom audio video installer and it seems like more and more open back cabnets and stands are popular.So having fewer wires would be so much cleaner. We do alot of multizone installs with a theater as the main room. If HDMI was able to send 2 channel info from all sources at the same time as all nessary audio for the theater, it would make for a killer clean install.
I have not ran into any preamps or receivers that was able to decode anything digital and send it out zone 2/3/4 or what have you. Again just wishful thinking.

Dan

[Kevin D]

I'm more worried about the limited distance for HDMI. Pretty soon you'll have to have HDMI to get anything in HD. Kind of screws our centralized systems where all TV's run from, and most aren't within 50'. Hope those HDMI-CAT5 converters come down in price (and actually start to work consistently).


Kevin D.

[Nolan B]

It does bass management on everything. It will not to any post processing on soundtracks that originate as Dolby TrueHD or dtsHS Master Audio.

Eric

eric,
Do you know why this is? Is this an issue which effects most/all Processors and recievers which can accept PCM through HDMI?

[Dmantis]

I'm more worried about the limited distance for HDMI. Pretty soon you'll have to have HDMI to get anything in HD. Kind of screws our centralized systems where all TV's run from, and most aren't within 50'. Hope those HDMI-CAT5 converters come down in price (and actually start to work consistently).


Kevin D.

Actually we got one to work at 256 feet over cat5 with damn good video. I was suprised it actually worked as it was only rated for 200 feet max.
I did this guys backyard who had a plasma at his pool bar which was covered(it had a roof) and the gear lived in the pool house. The wire runs where 256 feet. We told him it probably isn't going to work with HDMI and we will have to down convert to component over cat 5. Well it works.

Dan

[nash]

That is interesting. So a Blue Ray with a lossless PCM track will be able to be processed in the 1069? Even matrixed from 5.1 to 7.1?

I will try this tonight with my 1058... I could have sworn I had tried Cinema EQ on a few discs, without success. Maybe I was listening to TrueHD tracks all the time. I will try it on uncompressed PCM from Casino Royale.

OK I just tried this on Casino Royale. When listening to EITHER the Dolby Digital 5.1 track, or the Uncompressed PCM track over HDMI, the DLPIIx, DSP, and DTS Neo 6 buttons on the receiver do nothing. I can't seem to process the signal at all. Perhaps bass management and crossovers are working, but I'm not sure how I'd test that. I don't have a dedicated sub (all 5 of my channels have subs built in, so everything is set to Large).

[hifiguymi]

eric,
Do you know why this is? Is this an issue which effects most/all Processors and recievers which can accept PCM through HDMI?

I don't think this happens with most processors, just some. It sounds to me like it's the DSP engine that Rotel uses. I have no idea if Rotel can't or won't write a code to ignore that flag.

Eric

[hifiguymi]

OK I just tried this on Casino Royale. When listening to EITHER the Dolby Digital 5.1 track, or the Uncompressed PCM track over HDMI, the DLPIIx, DSP, and DTS Neo 6 buttons on the receiver do nothing. I can't seem to process the signal at all. Perhaps bass management and crossovers are working, but I'm not sure how I'd test that. I don't have a dedicated sub (all 5 of my channels have subs built in, so everything is set to Large).

Did you switch your system to include surround back channels? Just speculating here, but if you have the receiver set up as a 5.1 system maybe it won't let you do those things. I haven't put my hands on one of these yet (should be soon) to figure this stuff out. I'm going by what the guys in tech support have told me they themselves did.

Eric

[Stevebez]

OK I am getting really lost here ...........

So whats the diff between listening to uncompressed PCM vs DDTrueHD all via HDMI?

If there is no difference who cares what the 1069 does with DDTrueHD if it can process PCM ?

[hifiguymi]

OK I am getting really lost here ...........

So whats the diff between listening to uncompressed PCM vs DDTrueHD all via HDMI?

If there is no difference who cares what the 1069 does with DDTrueHD if it can process PCM ?

Some discs have an uncompressed PCM soundtrack on them as the native high quility soundtrack. If it starts out that way on the disc the RSP-1069, and the RSX-1058, can do some post processing to that signal. If the soundtrack is in a compressed form, like Dolby TrueHD or dtsHD Master Audio which take up less space on the disc, it is decoded (uncompressed) in the player into a multichannel PCM stream but it as a digital flag on it. That flag will not allow the DSP engine in the Rotel to add any post processing to it.

Eric

[Stevebez]

Thanks ...

Why would you need to do post processing to a DDTrueHD etc signal ... is this for bass management? One would think you would not want to interfere with this signal if it were the master of sources?

[hifiguymi]

Thanks ...

Why would you need to do post processing to a DDTrueHD etc signal ... is this for bass management? One would think you would not want to interfere with this signal if it were the master of sources?

I know all of this can be confusing but bass management is not post processing. Post processing is adding something like CinemaEQ (which lowers the treble output because movies are mixed with a lot of treble for theaters - big, very damped rooms with the speakers behind the screen - and it isn't always taken out for the home theater mixes), Rotel ES (which adds information for the surround back channels in a 7.1 system from a 5.1 soundtrack), and Contour (which is another way of saying tone controls).

The reason this is important is most HD-DVD and Blu-ray discs seem to have 5.1 soundtracks on them. If that 5.1 soundtrack is in the form of a native PCM soundtrack the new Rotel pieces can apply Rotel ES to them for someone that has a 7.1 system. If the disc has Dolby TrueHD or dtsHD Master Audio the Rotel pieces cannot apply Rotel ES and the surround back channels will not play anything. Only 5 of the 7 speakers they have will play in that case. If someone wants to have all 7 speakers play, they would need to listen to a lower sound quality version of the sound track.

I hope this helps.

Eric

[garak]

I got a call from the audio shop today saying they received some information from Rotel about the 1069. So I went down there to check it out, and I got a copy of the preliminary data sheet.

Even though it may not allow post processing of TrueHD, DTS-HD MA, I think I'll pick one up when it hits the streets.

I don't know what happened but somehow there's now a RMB-1077 sitting in my living room. :huh:

[Stevebez]

I don't use my 1068 to manage bass etc since I found it quite poor overall to be honest. Using the EQ capabilities of my Velodyne DD12 is streets ahead so its no change in this department - so basically I get a HDMI switcher and video scaler in one box plus some better processing chips ...... not a bad upgrade so I've ordered a 1069, app they arrive in Nov. in the UK.

[sandalsocks]

Since some of you guys are confused as I was try reading this article. It explains the HD audio from blueray and hd-dvd.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/High-Def_FAQ/Joshua_Zyber/High-Def_FAQ:_Is_HDMI_1.3_Really_Necessary/853

From my understanding, not sure if I'm right here, the rsp-1068 and even the the rsx-1057 can process the HD audio via analog cables b/c the players will all pass and convert the audio via PCM anyways.

The rsp-1069 and rsx-1058 lets you have an added option to get the HD audio (blue ray or hd-dvd) from hdmi. This is b/c the audio will still be converted via PCM anyways so hdmi 1.3 isn't really needed.

Can any one confirm if I'm right or wrong?

[hifiguymi]

Since some of you guys are confused as I was try reading this article. It explains the HD audio from blueray and hd-dvd.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/High-Def_FAQ/Joshua_Zyber/High-Def_FAQ:_Is_HDMI_1.3_Really_Necessary/853

From my understanding, not sure if I'm right here, the rsp-1068 and even the the rsx-1057 can process the HD audio via analog cables b/c the players will all pass and convert the audio via PCM anyways.

The rsp-1069 and rsx-1058 lets you have an added option to get the HD audio (blue ray or hd-dvd) from hdmi. This is b/c the audio will still be converted via PCM anyways so hdmi 1.3 isn't really needed.

Can any one confirm if I'm right or wrong?

There are a couple of critical differences between using the 5.1 analog outputs from a BD or HD-DVD player with an RSX-1057 or RSP-1068 and using the HDMI outputs with either the RSX-1058 or RSP-1069.

1. Bass management. If you use the 5.1 analog outputs from the player you are subject to the bass management in the player. Most of the time that is not very good and/or very limited. With the RSP-1069 and RSX-1058, using HDMI, you have all of the bass management features in the preamp.

2. DAC's. You are listening to the sound quality of the digital to analog converters in the player if you use the 5.1 analog outputs (not to mention the effect of whatever analog cable you sould use). If you use the HDMI into either the RSX-1058 or RSP-1069 you are listening to the DAC's in the Rotel and the signal stays in the digital domain longer.

3. Post processing. On non-HD (native) soundtracks you do have the ability to add things like Rotel ES, Cinema EQ, and Contour using the HDMI inputs on the RSX-1058 and RSP-1069. When you use the 5.1 analog connections you loose all of that.

Eric

[sandalsocks]

There are a couple of critical differences between using the 5.1 analog outputs from a BD or HD-DVD player with an RSX-1057 or RSP-1068 and using the HDMI outputs with either the RSX-1058 or RSP-1069.

1. Bass management. If you use the 5.1 analog outputs from the player you are subject to the bass management in the player. Most of the time that is not very good and/or very limited. With the RSP-1069 and RSX-1058, using HDMI, you have all of the bass management features in the preamp.

2. DAC's. You are listening to the sound quality of the digital to analog converters in the player if you use the 5.1 analog outputs (not to mention the effect of whatever analog cable you sould use). If you use the HDMI into either the RSX-1058 or RSP-1069 you are listening to the DAC's in the Rotel and the signal stays in the digital domain longer.

3. Post processing. On non-HD (native) soundtracks you do have the ability to add things like Rotel ES, Cinema EQ, and Contour using the HDMI inputs on the RSX-1058 and RSP-1069. When you use the 5.1 analog connections you loose all of that.

Eric

can the newer rotel's perform all the management and post processing via PCM? According to that article blue ray and hd-dvd player will send hd audio through PCM in all most all cases. The article says only a few legacy HD format DVD's will be sent through their native format, DTS-HD, etc.

[hifiguymi]

can the newer rotel's perform all the management and post processing via PCM? According to that article blue ray and hd-dvd player will send hd audio through PCM in all most all cases. The article says only a few legacy HD format DVD's will be sent through their native format, DTS-HD, etc.

They can do bass management on all formats. Post processing is available on discs that have a native PCM soundtrack. If the soundtrack is Dolby TrueHD or dtsHD Master Audio the RSX-1058 and RSP-1069 will not do any post processing. Once those soundtracks are decoded in the player to a multi-channel PCM signal they have a digital flag that will not allow the DSP engine in the Rotels to add any post processing.

Eric

[Andrew M Ward]

They can do bass management on all formats. Post processing is available on discs that have a native PCM soundtrack. If the soundtrack is Dolby TrueHD or dtsHD Master Audio the RSX-1058 and RSP-1069 will not do any post processing. Once those soundtracks are decoded in the player to a multi-channel PCM signal they have a digital flag that will not allow the DSP engine in the Rotels to add any post processing.

Eric

The Rotel RSP-1069 & RSX-1058 will accept from the Play Station HD audio at 48/192 and not limit any processing... please request a an HD title and specify a "processing" requirement and I'll report back my findings...

Spkr distances
Bass Management
Grp Delay
You name it....

what other "Post Processing" are you looking to do..???

[sandalsocks]

thanks hifiguymi, that really clears things up for me. I think I get it now. Man is this complicated.

[Kevin D]

1069's are now shipping to dealers. We should have one I can test out soon.

Kevin D.

[RebelMan]

The Rotel RSP-1069 & RSX-1058 will accept from the Play Station HD audio at 48/192 and not limit any processing... please request a an HD title and specify a "processing" requirement and I'll report back my findings...

Spkr distances
Bass Management
Grp Delay
You name it....

what other "Post Processing" are you looking to do..???

Are you using native PCM or Dolby TrueHD as the source signal for post processing? Sounds like the decoded DTHD tracks from say "We Are Marshall" on a PS3 cannot have post processing algorithms applied like Rotel ES, Cinema EQ and Contour because of the conversion flag embedded in the decoded signal. But, bass management, time delays and speaker distances settings are still available. Can you verify this?

[Andrew M Ward]

Are you using native PCM or Dolby TrueHD as the source signal for post processing? Sounds like the decoded DTHD tracks from say "We Are Marshall" on a PS3 cannot have post processing algorithms applied like Rotel ES, Cinema EQ and Contour because of the conversion flag embedded in the decoded signal. But, bass management, time delays and speaker distances settings are still available. Can you verify this?

It seems to vary from disc to disc... (as we all knew it would) more on that soon...

However:
Group Delays allow video & Audio to match perfectly (Lip-Sync)
Speaker Distances allow for adjustment to personal room size
Bass management allows you to get things closer to "flat" in your environment

anything else you do to a 48/192 virtually perfect signal is suspect in my book...

[Stevebez]

agreed...

[Rotelrob]

Seeing as the new pre seems to be a winner will Rotel keep up with the times from now on.
RR

[Nolan B]

It seems to vary from disc to disc... (as we all knew it would) more on that soon...

However:
Group Delays allow video & Audio to match perfectly (Lip-Sync)
Speaker Distances allow for adjustment to personal room size
Bass management allows you to get things closer to "flat" in your environment

anything else you do to a 48/192 virtually perfect signal is suspect in my book...

I agree, but I would add people should have the option to matrix 5.1 into 7.1. Thats a reasonable feature.