Toying with the dark side....no more

[dmcgowan]

As part of our planned renovation (see earlier speaker post), looking at some other upgrades. Plan was to try and get a new Pre-Pro and Amp for sub $5k Aussie. Had been hanging back as I have been long term Rotel owner (almost 20 yrs now) and waiting to see what will eventuate in the HDMI switching stakes. Figuring that the 1068 replacement and 1075 or 1077 was the go and hopeful I could haggle that down to ca. $5k in the proces.

Had a listen to Denon AVR-4306 this weekend and despite all the bells and whistles (which are useful but not that influencing in my decision), it sounded pretty good. Then the dealer says you can have the AVR-4306 and DVD-3930 for $4,500 together???? Trying to work out what the catch is when the matching Rotel pair would be RSX-1067 and RDV-1092 for over $6,000? Over $7k if we go 1068/1077/1092...

The video upconversion and HDMI switching of the 4306 is one feature where the Rotels on offer down here are just a generation behind. This kit will go in a >90% HT room so not too fussed about 2-ch listening which will be done with some existing Rotel gear.

Anyone else contemplating a similar move? Thoughts?

[Pez]

Funny that you say this as I am somewhat considering the same. I have a 1068 with 1077, Denon 2910, and PS3. Since I got a new 1080p TV the urge to get the audio side of the new DVD formats is consuming me. Have always been a big fan of Denon and thought about the 4306 to hold me over until Rotel comes out with new stuff. Since that is going to be awhile the 4306 is looking better and better. Plus the 4306 has a lot of features I like.

The problem is I would hate to spend the extra money on the amps in the 4306 since I wont be using them. Also, I could see myself not wanting to get rid of the Denon once the new Rotel stuff comes out.

[dmcgowan]

Glad I'm not the only one Pez. The Rotel pre-pro's are just seriously out of date IMHO, particularly for their price point down here. If there was a Denon pre-pro version of the 4306 with no amps, I think we would have it installed already.

I am not too swayed by the features vs. basic audio / video handling but the features are very WAF friendly. Hmmmm, if the 1069 was 3 months away with HDMI switching, upconversion, etc it might be different but I can see the next generation being 2008 or beyond for Australia plus much more pricey.

Oh well, good to have the problem of choice!

[Kevin D]

Why not the RSX-1058 that's coming out real soon? HDMI switching, conversion and scaling to HDMI, and a new DSP chip that's supposed to sound better then the current line-up.

Kevin D.

[Pez]

Why not the RSX-1058 that's coming out real soon? HDMI switching, conversion and scaling to HDMI, and a new DSP chip that's supposed to sound better then the current line-up.

Kevin D.

I am also considering this option but the problem is I can get the Denon for a much better price. Although if I get the 1058 and then decide to get the 1069 I could probably get more for the rotel on the used market.

With the 1058, can it pass a 1080p signal? Routing all my video inputs through a pre/pro or rec is a must for me so I need this feature (I dont understand why most TV's dont have direct access to each video input on the remote). Also, can it handle uncompressed audio through HDMI? The 1058 would match the rest of my gear...

[dmcgowan]

Why not the RSX-1058 that's coming out real soon? HDMI switching, conversion and scaling to HDMI, and a new DSP chip that's supposed to sound better then the current line-up.

Kevin D.

Interesting Kevin - do you know when it is to be released? Also at USD1999 per box, it is likely to be very expensive down here :cry:

The combo DVD / AVR deal is just pretty hard to beat - worst case I could still add an RMB-1077 to the Denon in a year or so. Probably cheaper all up?

Joy of being at the a*se end of the world...

[Kevin D]

With the 1058, can it pass a 1080p signal? Routing all my video inputs through a pre/pro or rec is a must for me so I need this feature (I dont understand why most TV's dont have direct access to each video input on the remote). Also, can it handle uncompressed audio through HDMI? The 1058 would match the rest of my gear...

The current 1058 beta is scaling to 1080p, so I would hope passing 1080p wouldn't be a problem.

PCM signals through HDMI has not been confirmed by my rep, but another dealer's rep on here assures it will.

As far as discrete inputs, which brand TV do you have? Most have codes available for programmable remotes that do work.

Kevin D.

[Kevin D]

Interesting Kevin - do you know when it is to be released? Also at USD1999 per box, it is likely to be very expensive down here :cry:

Rotel's hoping for a release this month. With the difference in price between pre/pro's and receivers across the world, who knows what retail will be down there.

Kevin D.

[dmcgowan]

Kevin,

Do you know what the RRP of the RSX-1057 and RSX-1058 is in USD? The price list I have is March last year but trying to work out what the price in AUD would be from current US pricing? PM would be great if this is sensitive information...

Thanks

[calmac]

The other thing you have to consider DMC , is that while the 1058 will shortly be available in the US , it may take some time for it to filter through to the Australian market.Contact the Australian importer International Dynamics on :0394290822 for details of availability and pricing.
Gordon

[dmcgowan]

Thanks Gordon, might give them a call tomorrow to see. I need to brush up on my search skills!

[JudgeBaxter]

Hi guys,

Probably a one off type thing, but the chap I brought my 1068/1075 combo from here in the UK, replaced them with a Denon 4306. He expected a lateral move in terms of sound quality (his usage was pure AV only so he wasn't fussed about 2 channel performance, where I would hope and expect the Rotel's would still just shade it?) but wanted to add HDMI inputs. He went through 2 units in two weeks and rather than send the 2nd one back for a third he demanded his money back and brought the flagship Arcam unit - less bells and whistles, but does have HDMI. When it was working it was fine - as good as the Rotels by no better.....but only when it was working.......

Someone else on AVforums (UK site) also went through 3 4306's in about 2/3 months.

Two isolated incidents, probabaly nothing in it, but they are trying to squeeze an AWFUL lot into that unit, so maybe some of the usual Denon build quality is being stretched to the max here......

If I brought one, I'd want to get it from a local dealer where I could go in and bang on the desk if I needed too.........

That said, my old Denon 2803 never missed a beat for the three years I had it before the Rotels.....

cheers,

David.

[Pez]

Hi guys,

Probably a one off type thing, but the chap I brought my 1068/1075 combo from here in the UK, replaced them with a Denon 4306. He expected a lateral move in terms of sound quality (his usage was pure AV only so he wasn't fussed about 2 channel performance, where I would hope and expect the Rotel's would still just shade it?) but wanted to add HDMI inputs. He went through 2 units in two weeks and rather than send the 2nd one back for a third he demanded his money back and brought the flagship Arcam unit - less bells and whistles, but does have HDMI. When it was working it was fine - as good as the Rotels by no better.....but only when it was working.......

Someone else on AVforums (UK site) also went through 3 4306's in about 2/3 months.

Two isolated incidents, probabaly nothing in it, but they are trying to squeeze an AWFUL lot into that unit, so maybe some of the usual Denon build quality is being stretched to the max here......

If I brought one, I'd want to get it from a local dealer where I could go in and bang on the desk if I needed too.........

That said, my old Denon 2803 never missed a beat for the three years I had it before the Rotels.....

cheers,

David.

Good to know. I have had several Denon receivers in the past with no problems but things do happen.

[Pez]

The current 1058 beta is scaling to 1080p, so I would hope passing 1080p wouldn't be a problem.

PCM signals through HDMI has not been confirmed by my rep, but another dealer's rep on here assures it will.

As far as discrete inputs, which brand TV do you have? Most have codes available for programmable remotes that do work.

Kevin D.

I have a Samsung HL-S5687W (DLP RPTV).

It may sound stupid but something as minor as including direct access to video inputs on the TV via the remote would solve a lot of issues I have right now in terms of the next gen DVD formats. My universal remote is the key to my system and is an absloute must to have the ability to change sources with one touch of the button. Otherwise who knows what kind of havoc my wife or anyone else would bring down on my system trying to swtich from DVD to cable to CD to etc....

[Kevin D]

I have a Samsung HL-S5687W (DLP RPTV).

It may sound stupid but something as minor as including direct access to video inputs on the TV via the remote would solve a lot of issues I have right now in terms of the next gen DVD formats. My universal remote is the key to my system and is an absloute must to have the ability to change sources with one touch of the button. Otherwise who knows what kind of havoc my wife or anyone else would bring down on my system trying to swtich from DVD to cable to CD to etc....

What kind of universal do you have? Every Samsung I've worked with has discrete codes, though finding the right ones can be tricky. They actually changed codes mid-production on the same model before!

Kevin D.

[Pez]

Its an MX-500.

Funny story how I got it - in one of my previous jobs the office I worked in was on the same floor as the corporate HQ for Universal Remote Control - talked to one of thier employees in the elevator and basically got it for next to nothing. Its showing its age a bit but have been so happy with it dont to replace it. I dont work there anymore unfortunately.

[Kevin D]

Hmm. No real way to get the codes into the remote without borrowing a Pronto or other PC programable remote. A third-party company had a device for sending configurations to the MX500, but no longer makes it.

Anyone you know have a Pronto or newer MX remote? You could have them add the discrete codes to it and then learn them in your MX500.

Kevin D.

[chrispy35]

I have a Samsung HL-S5687W (DLP RPTV).

It may sound stupid but something as minor as including direct access to video inputs on the TV via the remote would solve a lot of issues I have right now in terms of the next gen DVD formats. My universal remote is the key to my system and is an absloute must to have the ability to change sources with one touch of the button. Otherwise who knows what kind of havoc my wife or anyone else would bring down on my system trying to swtich from DVD to cable to CD to etc....

Dude, you need a Harmony remote. Problems solved. :dancenana:

Chris P.

[Pez]

Kevin - unfortunaltely none of my friends or relatives are into HT like me. Thier idea a sweet system is something you get from a big box store that costs less than my mx-500 and comes in one box.

Chris - I have been seriously considering a Harmony remote more just to try something new out. But maybe its time to take the plunge.

[Alex999]

It's late and I'm tired... however I had to say one thing: "Going from Rotel to Denon is...hm not sure how to say this..but let's say silly". Rotel's sound is that much better. I'm sorry but I had to say this. I use 1095+1066 combo, I have a panasonic plasma tv, toshiba hd dvd etc. This combo works great. I wouldn't touch denon (or Yamaha) even if you gave them to me for free.

[dmcgowan]

Aaah well Alex, we're all entitled to an opinion - luckily they are free! Although are you basing that comment on comparative listening or the brand name ?

1095+1068+1092 here would cost about AU$7,500-$8,000 so it's another step in terms of cost. Question is really one of how does the AVR-4306+DVD-3930 combo sit vs. RSX-1057+RDV-1092 combo - which is what we are going to listen to this weekend. If the 4306 sounds better in HT than the 1057 then that's what we'll buy, if it doesn't then we will probably sit and wait for the 1058.

[Alex999]

Aaah well Alex, we're all entitled to an opinion - luckily they are free! Although are you basing that comment on comparative listening or the brand name ?

1095+1068+1092 here would cost about AU$7,500-$8,000 so it's another step in terms of cost. Question is really one of how does the AVR-4306+DVD-3930 combo sit vs. RSX-1057+RDV-1092 combo - which is what we are going to listen to this weekend. If the 4306 sounds better in HT than the 1057 then that's what we'll buy, if it doesn't then we will probably sit and wait for the 1058.

I was cranky last night :-). Didn't mean to be rude. I just love Rotel. I didn't listen to 4306. I listened to some other Denon models and I wasn't impressed. You are right, you should listen and decide for yourself. Another thing I just realized is you said you'd be using it for HT only. 2 ch stereo music is very important to me.

cheers

[dmcgowan]

Hey Alex,

I figured the "it's late but..." warning covered mood just fine - hence the smiley in my reply. I still have lots of Rotel kit for our more critical 2 channel stuff - this is for a new room in a new house where it will be HT or only background music use. The streaming capability of the 4306 is actually a real plus there - if it can do a "shuffle" play from our home server then it would be perfect.

One of the real issues living "down here" is the price points that gear can fall into from time to time. The Denon kit (and I think the 4306/3930 is more comparable with Rotel than say the cheapie A$1000 receivers and their $400 DVD players) seems "cheaper" here and Rotel is just at an "expensive" price point. Guess the importer is trying to move it upstream but pricing now for Rotel gear is passing the alternatives I would have compared it to (HK, nad, Arcam, etc).

Either way will feedback some thoughts on the comparo after the weekend. The WAF of the Denon stuff will play more of a role than I might like...

[Pez]

Even if you have to "settle" for Denon its not a bad choice at all. Denon gets excellent reviews (see audioholics.com) and the 3930 is hard to beat.

[hifiguymi]

dmcgowan,

Did you find out when the RSX-1058 will be available? If it works in terms of time frame and number of amp channels, that, and the RDV-1092/3, would be the combo I'd recommend. The Denon pieces are very nice (I sell both Rotel and Denon) and I know you'd like them, but the Rotel is that much better. The current processors in the Rotel receivers and preamps are better than the Denon in terms of steering and creating proper space in the sound field so I'd imagine the new ones will be better yet.

Eric

[dmcgowan]

Eric,

RSX-1058 is 6 months away I would guess and as described above, I would guess the comparable thing to the AVR-4306 would be whatever replaces the RSX-1067 if there is such a thing. Otherwise start shelling out for more amplification.

Interested you would suggest the RDV-1092 though? Yet to find a review that rates the Rotel higher than the better Denon DVD players for Video or HT use. I have had two Rotel DVD players and can't ever see myself buying a third (Rotel overpriced for quality / features and both broke - unlike every other piece of Rotel gear I own which still runs like a dream after 19 years in one case!)

[nash]

6 months? :E :E That can't be right...

[Kevin D]

Maybe down-under its 6 months away. Still should be 1 month or so in NA.

Kevin D.

[Nolan B]

why would they not release a SSP with the same functionality as the 1058 at the same time? If the 1058 does accept PCM via HDMI it will be hard to ressist, but I will likely change it for the SSP when it gets released.

seems to me with the lack of SSPs (quality ones) and high demand Rotel has a huge oppotunity to expose itself to a desperate market, and get people looking at their products which normally wouldnt.

[dmcgowan]

Interesting conclusion to this story...

Purchased the RSP-1098 and RMB-1077 this morning after a proper chance to listen to some scenes on DVD. Denon AVR-4306 was probably 95% of the RSX-1067 we compared it to (interesting for some maybe, store said using anything other than Denon DVD in the <Aus$2500 price range was waste of time). Sound was generally missing just a little bit compared to the Rotel - not sure if that is so much poor sound as 20 years of "training" to the Rotel sound though.

Just happened to relisten to two of the scenes with the 1098/1077 combo. Gotta love it when the Treasurer says "that really did sound a lot better - why don't we get that one?". Also tried a mix of Canton speakers (model numbers didn't stick) and the Klipsch RF83 fronts with RC-64 centre (forget which of the rears they used). The Klipsch will be on the comparison with the 700 series B&Ws when they get them in. The scene that swung the decision was the Riders of Rohirrim from LOTR ROTK - the depth / detail of sound of the 1098/1077 combo was just another notch above the 1067 or 4306. Now, just have to wait for one to be in stock later this week!

p.s. RSX-1058 is at least 3 months away for here. When the Treasurer says let's get the 1098, didn't think waiting for the 1099 in 6-12 months time was a smart move...

[calmac]

Interesting conclusion to this story...

Purchased the RSP-1098 and RMB-1077 this morning after a proper chance to listen to some scenes on DVD. Denon AVR-4306 was probably 95% of the RSX-1067 we compared it to (interesting for some maybe, store said using anything other than Denon DVD in the <Aus$2500 price range was waste of time). Sound was generally missing just a little bit compared to the Rotel - not sure if that is so much poor sound as 20 years of "training" to the Rotel sound though.

Just happened to relisten to two of the scenes with the 1098/1077 combo. Gotta love it when the Treasurer says "that really did sound a lot better - why don't we get that one?". Also tried a mix of Canton speakers (model numbers didn't stick) and the Klipsch RF83 fronts with RC-64 centre (forget which of the rears they used). The Klipsch will be on the comparison with the 700 series B&Ws when they get them in. The scene that swung the decision was the Riders of Rohirrim from LOTR ROTK - the depth / detail of sound of the 1098/1077 combo was just another notch above the 1067 or 4306. Now, just have to wait for one to be in stock later this week!

p.s. RSX-1058 is at least 3 months away for here. When the Treasurer says let's get the 1098, didn't think waiting for the 1099 in 6-12 months time was a smart move...

Great to hear you got a 1098 and 1077 , I don't think you will regret passing on the Denon amp.
Gordon

[dmcgowan]

Gordon,

Clearly a step above. More to the point, who am I to argue when she says "why don't we get that one"

Going to kill me waiting until mid next week to get the thing(s) though...

[Pez]

Congrats on the new toys! As I have been saying IMO Denon makes great products if thats what the budget allows and cant afford seperates. But if the treasurer ok's the rotel 1098/1077 combo you cant pass that up. Ever since I have owned the 1077 I am amazed at what that little amp can do. Plus the small size is very helpful when you have a lot components to fit in a small space.

[dmcgowan]

Thx Pez. Plus the Treasurer approved the RVE-1060 when it's released...

[hifiguymi]

Thx Pez. Plus the Treasurer approved the RVE-1060 when it's released...

They don't have the RVE-1060 available there yet? It's been here for six months or so.

Gongrats on the new system. :T That amp is one great sounding piece. Did you decide on a DVD player? You asked about the Rotel RDV-1092 and not a single customer of mine that has one has had a problem. They all praise it and I think the video is every bit as good as the Denon DVD-3930CI (which I sell as well). With the Denon you get SACD but that doesn't sound like it's an issue for you in this system. Just an FYI the RDV-1092 is being replaced by the RDV-1093. It's the same machine but the new one is Rohs compliant (no lead) and is supposed to be slightly faster at navigation.

Again, congratulations and happy listening. I'm jealous. ;x(

Eric

[dmcgowan]

Eric,

Thought we had done enough crazy shopping for one day - especially with the RVE-1060 in planning

Dealer had no interest in showing off anything other than the Denon DVD players - 3930 here is about 20-30% below the RDV-1092 pricing and does seem to get rave reviews. To be fair, have such a bad experience with Rotel DVDs to date that I need to think through buying another one and he was probably reflecting my comments on the phone pre having a demo.

RVE-1060 isn't on InterDyn price list yet so hope it is only weeks away. Advice earlier this week was that the RSX-1058 isn't on the June order so that isn't close either. Would love to know if Kevin D's prediction that the RVE-1060 will do 1080p by firmware upgrade is going to come true. Alternatives here are VERY pricey...

[Alex999]

Great choice my friend. I hope you get b&w instead of Klipsch :-). However Klipsch will work great for HT. You may want to give a chance to B&W CM1 or 7. I think they are amazing.
Cheers,

[dmcgowan]

Thanks Alex,

To be honest, it was a close thing between the Denon and RSX-1067 on the original speakers the guy had set up. Once we swapped to the Klipsch, the gap between the 1067 and AVR-4306 opened up a bit more. Obviously the system I heard last week was on similar speakers as the Denon had sounded fine a week before. The Klipsch just sounded very, very good with the Rotel gear.

This dealer is getting 700 series B&W in the next few months so I guess we'll audition a 703 B&W system vs. a RF-83 Klipsch and see what sounds best. Also want to give some of the locally made product a try as well - it gets rave reviews down here.

p.s. The Klipsch THX-Ultra 2 set looks awesome but I think it might be a bit too industrial for our new house. The idea of two independently amped 500W subs appeals to me big time

[calmac]

Gordon,

Clearly a step above. More to the point, who am I to argue when she says "why don't we get that one"

Going to kill me waiting until mid next week to get the thing(s) though...

Ah , a good woman with great taste, all men should be so lucky .
Never been the most patient of folk my self and living in WA the delays between placing an order and getting the goods are always frustrating but worth the wait.
Congrats once again,
Gordon

[a_frankton]

Mate a good women isnt one who holds the purse strings and has to be answered to, I think that is why he calls her the treasurer poor bloke ;x(
whatever tho good on him for getting what he could, when he could I say :lol:

[dmcgowan]

Damn, gender politics in Club Rotel now? Trust me, not a case of poor bloke here - I was edging towards the next gen 1067 until my wife suggested the 1098/1077 combo.

[Nolan B]

Damn, gender politics in Club Rotel now? Trust me, not a case of poor bloke here - I was edging towards the next gen 1067 until my wife suggested the 1098/1077 combo.

sounds like a good wife to me. My wife really enjoys the result of my home theater purchases too.

[dmcgowan]

More importantly finally got it hooked up tonight. Only got time to play some LOTR ROTK at low levels with the kids and rest of the family asleep....

W O W

[a_frankton]

No gender politics intended, would have called it that way if the reverse was happening too. But take your point, this is not the forum for discussing who is under the thumb or not.
More on the topic, pleased you've it wired and results are WOW, makes the purchase all the sweeter.
Here's to you getting left alone at home plenty as you mentioned, so you can really rock the house :T

[dmcgowan]

No offence taken

Results out of the box, no adjustments, etc etc just mindblowing. Only way I can describe improvement is using Ride of the Rohirrim scene from ROTK - instead of hearing a crowd or herd of horses you suddenly hear lots of individual sounds. The definition is just amazing. Job for the weekend is to properly get it wired up, adjust SPL etc and see what it can really do! Oh and get the family outta the house!