Watch Out Krell, here comes Rotel:tales of the RMB 1077

[DrJRapp]

Geoff

I don't think the language of Martin's opinions are necessarily insulting or sarcastic, just typically "British" in nature (I don't mean that to be derogitory, just that the Brits seem to have this "brutally honest" way of critiqueing ANYTHING).

I also don't think that Martin has much experience with Club Rotel. You see Martin, the name says it all, this is a Club where people of very diverse backgrounds come together to have a discussion about their likes and dislikes, and share their experience with a particular Rotel product. It is supposed to be fun, it is supposed to be lite, it is supposed to be universally understandable. While just about everything you say shows you have a high level of intellegence and understanding of things technical, it's really lost on this crowd. Not because we don't necessarily share your level of intellegence and understanding, but because we are here for a different purpose. Perhaps you would find a better audience for your type of argument at another forum. Please understand I'm not suggesting that you to go anywhere else, just that you may do better if you lighten up here.

[fordster]

Geoff

I don't think the language of Martin's opinions are necessarily insulting or sarcastic, just typically "British" in nature (I don't mean that to be derogitory, just that the Brits seem to have this "brutally honest" way of critiqueing ANYTHING).

Hey, I'm a Brit! To be "brutally honest" this thread has now got boring as people resort to geeky engineering specs in attempt to outdo each other. :Z

Lighten up folks, this is meant to be a hobby and therefore fun!

[Feisal K]

bigburner,

if you don;t mind, may I know where that quote was originally from?

like this bit.. but i'd like to be able to quote the original source

Do you really think you can hear difference between two amps when both have THD specifications lower then even 0.1%?

still,

To be "brutally honest" this thread has now got boring as people resort to geeky engineering specs in attempt to outdo each other. :Z

:T

[Aussie Geoff]

Hi,

Guys, enough brutal honesty - this is a fun hobby... Sound is subjective - you can't measure everything...

Lets all arty: lighten up a little...

And I must say I agree with the sentiments of a few posters - enough with the specs and more "what does it sound like"... Specs only tell a small part of the story... I can talk specs with the best of people but I don't because from years of listening vs. reading reviews with detailed specs in them or web specmanship style posts, I've found that for me, opinions on "because the spec is like this the sound will be like that" don't wash once you've heard many real world items of equipment...

Geoff

[Azeke]

Indeed gentlemen, we all must respect each others opinions. I concur with Geoff specs are constant. Let's discuss the sound and remember sound is subjective as well. It would be sad to lock such an enjoyable and informative thread. Let's not perpetuate the problem, but maintain charisma. The balls in your court.

Peace and blessings gentlemen,

Azeke

[Feisal K]

And I must say I agree with the sentiments of a few posters - enough with the specs and more "what does it sound like"... Specs only tell a small part of the story...

Agreed. but this is typical with digital amp threads... people who have heard the amp (any digital amp) say specs don't tell the whole story; while people who haven't insist that with those specs it can't possibly sound as good as you claim.

[Marcel B]

As far as I know every loudspeaker (brand and/or system) has distortion that is much bigger than that of the electronics. So what we all are trying to do is find a sound that is to our own ears and taste acceptable

Marcel B

[rpryan]

I didn't think this post would last until today and if it's gone tomorrow I would like to thank Jerry for a great story. I felt his anticipation and joy with his new toy. I hope I can follow another persons experience with their new purchase. Jerry- great review.
Bob

[DrJRapp]

I didn't think this post would last until today and if it's gone tomorrow I would like to thank Jerry for a great story. I felt his anticipation and joy with his new toy. I hope I can follow another persons experience with their new purchase. Jerry- great review.
Bob

Thanks Bob...it has been fun! Regardless of what anyone thinks about the specs...I'm keeping my 1077.

[RobP]

Thanks Bob...it has been fun! Regardless of what anyone thinks about the specs...I'm keeping my 1077.

Damn Jerry!! I was hoping to get a good deal!! Oh well. :B

[RebelMan]

As contentious as it may sometimes get, you must admit it makes for some intresting reading. No harm done as long as we can respect each other's opinons in the end.

[bigburner]

bigburner,

if you don;t mind, may I know where that quote was originally from?

like this bit.. but i'd like to be able to quote the original source

Post #29 on this thread: http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=15900

[RobP]

Well Guys, I went to my dealer today and picked up a new DVD player, while I was there I seen the new RMB-1077 in the display rack, of course I had to indulge myself. I listened to the amp paired up with a pair of B&W 803S's. Now before I start, let me say that I really, really wanted to like this amp, but after the music started I found my grin going to a frown. The top end sounded really compressed with a very narrow soundstage width. I listened to Sara K, which I know really well, the light airy recording sounded closed in and her voice sounded boxy in a way.
Now in the bass department the 1077 did really well, it was very controlled and tight which I liked really well. The amp had been played for quite sometime according to the salesman, so break in period was not a factor.

I kept wondering if it was the room, the speakers, anything. I just could not believe what I was hearing, taking the great reveiws that it received here made me think it was something else. So I asked if I could listen to another amplifer on the same speakers, he hooked up the Rotel RSX1067 to the speakers and started the track over again, the problem with the upper end was gone, the recording sounded just as good as it does in my setup at home. The soundstage was wide and deep again and her voice sounded natural. Now in the lower frequencies they were not as tight and defined as with the 1077.
Overall my thoughts on the performance on the 1077 are a mixed bag, I loved the bass but hated the upper end. And for now, my 1065 does a much better job for the money in the 100w per channel catagory.

[soundhound]

Kudos for the honesty. I'm a Rotel fan and its nice to hear there may be another side to the coin.

[stewfoo]

I knew it. DrJRapp is a Rotel plant. hahah just kidding. This just proves the subjectivity of our hobby.
Stew

[Feisal K]

Post #29 on this thread: http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=15900

bigburner,

fanks. interesting thread too!

[bigburner]

Hey, I'm a Brit! To be "brutally honest" this thread has now got boring as people resort to geeky engineering specs in attempt to outdo each other. :Z

Lighten up folks, this is meant to be a hobby and therefore fun!

I think that we should welcome science in this forum, not reject it. Science introduces objectivity into a very subjective hobby.

It also makes this forum far more interesting. For example, consider the essence of Victor’s argument:

Humans do not have the capacity to tell the difference between one low distortion amplifier and another.

Whoa. You have to admit that is interesting. If Victor is right then a lot of people here have been kidding themselves for a long time. I say lock that man up in Guantánamo Bay before he destroys our way of life!

I found Martinf’s point of view interesting too. Martinf dared to question the 1077’s credentials – supporting his argument with science, not just personal opinion – and was treated with suspicion in some quarters, and patronised in others. To me, Martinf was just trying to be objective.

Consider the following generic post which you will see in this forum: “I think that amp X sounds better than amp Y”. OK, that reassures people who bought amp X that they made a good choice, and gives prospective buyers of amp X confidence that they will avoid making a bad choice, but it’s not that interesting. I mean, is that really as good as it gets?

Of course not, because every now and again a scientist chips in to knock the world off its axis.

Speaking of scientists, if there is an EE wizard reading this then you might like to comment on the following off-the-wall theory from a non-scientist (me). This theory combines what Victor said about frequency-dependant amplitude variations and the pleasing sound of tube-base amplifiers, and what MartinF said about the HF noise-shaping required to disguise the deficiencies of ICE technology. Well here’s the theory:

The wonderful sound that Jerry hears is due to the 1077’s high content of even order distortion and/or the voicing deliberately introduced by Rotel.

Hey it is Friday night and I have had a few bevies.

Peace and love brothers.

[Aussie Geoff]

Bigburner,

Some good points there... ANd the discussion in this thread continues to be one of the most intersting (and popular) in Club Rotel.. We just need to be not too "brutally honest".

I too like the balance of science and listening... I get worried when people just want to talk measurement (and often only a few at that) and make judgements about the sound witrhout even listening to the equipment... The correlation between percieved sound and measurment is not strong for many measurments... A nice balance of both is a good thing in most informed discussions...

Geoff

[fordster]

I wasn't rejecting science, just trying to lighten the tone a little (call it dark British humour if you like). No offence was meant to anybody by the use of the work geek. I do think we all got a little too deep into scientific measurements. As Geoff says it needs to be a balance. This has been a great thread, with some good arguments and humour but seemed to me at least to be in danger of forgetting we were talking about how good an amp sounded.

I'd like to add my thanks to Jerry. He's clearly happy with his 1077 which is the important thing and he taken a great deal of time to write his reports and reply to everyones questions.

[DrJRapp]

The top end sounded really compressed with a very narrow soundstage width. I listened to Sara K, which I know really well, the light airy recording sounded closed in and her voice sounded boxy in a way.
Now in the bass department the 1077 did really well, it was very controlled and tight which I liked really well.

Had to be something wrong with that setup because I got to listen to Sara K last week on Wilson Sophias (see my earlier post) and a 1077 that was properly set up. The amp did a superb job with those very revealing speakers. The top end on the Sophia's are not as "edgy" as I tend to like( I'm a Klipsch fan), yet they never sounded compressed. The soundstage in 2 channel was ENORMOUS.

My experience (which is several hundred hours of listening to a large variety of program material on the 1077 at this point, not just 20-30 min at a dealer, tells me that the 1077 is every bit as "airy" as a 1067 or a 1080 or 1075 (or perhaps even more so), soundstage is very wide, but a bit forward and lacking a tad bit of depth. The fact that you found the soundstage narrow, is a clear indication the speakers were not properly set up.

What I suspect is that the dealer's setup was done for the RSP 1067 and never properly adjusted for the 1077. The room itself was probabaly contributing to so called "compressed" sound with some serious high end and midrange room reflections. "I found that the 1077 required me to reposition my speakers vs the 1080 because of the midrange presence and forwardness. I had to move them further apart and increase toe in.

By the way IMHO I think that 803Ses tend to sound boxy with any equipment and source material with highly detailed midrange. It does best with electronics who's midrange is a bit more laid back, ot thinner like the 1067 and 1075.

[soundhound]

Jerry, Jerry, Jerry.....I don't really care one way or the other about the 1077, I just keep up with this thread for the contradictions of it all, that makes for some good reading...Soundgravy heard something different than you, and something has to be wrong? This is just a simple observation, not a question that needs an answer.

[DrJRapp]

Bob,

I just got back from a two and a half day cruise and chose to express my opinon. So why CAN'T I answer? Has freedom of speech been banned here at Club Rotel while I was away?....LOL ;x( Yes, I think something was wrong there, and should be explored further. I had some time to kill so I just wanted to throw my opinions on his listening conditions and setup into the mix. (Does that sound like someone we know?)...LOL

It's fine with me that you have no opinion one way or another about the 1077, although I can't for life of me think of why you would then be here posting at this thread, (about the 1077) if you didn't, but that's your choice also and you are entitled. :P

Can we both at least agree that each is entitled to his own opinion? :T

[soundhound]

Sure, and I believe we can do the same for others as well, for example soundgravy.

[DrJRapp]

I knew it. DrJRapp is a Rotel plant. hahah just kidding. This just proves the subjectivity of our hobby.
Stew

Why would you say that????...lol, just because I got my 1077 before everyone else?..... and at a heavy discount???....lol (really paid full tilt).

Actually, if you look around at my posts, you'll probably see that I'm more of a critic of Rotel's shortfalls than I am a pundent of their successes.

I'm all for balance, however, not balance that results from one particular piece of defective gear or one particularly lousey setup, or an artificially contrived argument on specifications.

Soundgravy said, he really wanted to like the amp, and I still think he will when he hears one properly set up in a good room. I'm not trying to deny him his opinion, just questioning the science behind his audition. And I only do this because I have already heard the 1077 in about 4 different configurations in 4 different rooms, and also have had comments from about 10 different owners of the 1077, none of which "compute" with what Soundgravy has to say. There are lots of things that can affect the performance of a particular piece of gear, to illustrate, let me share this story with you all.

The first time I got to listen to my Klipsch RF7s they were not particularly well set up. They had just been switched over from a pair of KLF 20s, were being driven by a Yammy receiver and they actually sounded miserable...hollow and screechy. They didn't even appear to sound as good as my RF3s. However, after reading all the sterling reviews I had about the 7s from other people, something told me that something could be wrong with that particular RF7 sepup. Like Soundgravy with the 1077, I wanted to like the 7s so I kept my mind open to ALL the different possibilities, and went to another dealer to listen. The rest is history. Now Bob (Soundhound)....as both a RF7 and RF3 owner yourself, If I said I went to my Klipsch dealer and listened to the 7 and it was dissapointing, would you or would you not have questioned my opinion, the listening environment and encoraged me to give another listen? I sure hope you would have!

[bigburner]

Now before I start, let me say that I really, really wanted to like this amp, but after the music started I found my grin going to a frown.

''but a coupl'o'quarts o'beer would fix it so the intonation would not offend your ear''

Frank Zappa - Joe's Garage

[RobP]

Wow, I didnt mean to stir up so much dust here with my initial observation of the 1077. 8O

I understand that when I listened to the 1077 that the speakers may have not been setup properly for that amp, nor were they setup properly for the 1067 100%. I understand what it takes to setup a system properly. and that it may take weeks to get speakers in their proper place per the equipment and the room. I took that into consideration when I listened to the 1077.
My reason for listening to the 1077 was to compare watt for watt and dollar for dollar, between two 100 watt amplifiers side by side, one of which is much like the one that I own. I am looking to upgrade, and from the reports of the 1077 so far, I was hoping this would have been my pick per the reports from this forum.

For me, the sound quality was not there, if the room acoustics were bad then it was a varible that was present for both amplfiers, the speakers never moved it was in the same room. sure the soundstage was questionable per speaker placement, but the tonal quality and the "airyness" between the two was different, and the 1077 lost to my ears in this comparison.

I still plan on taking this one home when I get the time, I am self employed and run a business so who knows when that will happen, but when I do, I will post about the expierience.

Meanwhile a small disclaimer :Z ........That review was my opinion, and thats all that it is, its not fact. Dont be offended or take it as an attack on your character or intelligence, after all, this stuff is supposed to be fun! :W

[RebelMan]

LOL. This just goes to show that in the end most people are best served by listening to the "stuff" for themselves because what might sound sweet to one maybe bitter to another. No such thing as right or wrong in this business... make that hobby.

[bigburner]

Soundgravy, I've got a few suggestions that will make the 1077 sound better - sensible suggestions this time, not like drinking half a gallon of beer which may be detrimental to your health...

Step 1. Buy the 1077. No-one likes admitting they've bought a lemon so your brain will automatically compensate by improving the sound quality.

Step 2. Allow for "break-in" time. Break-in is a psychological phenomenon that enables an opinion about an amp to change dramatically, and quite quickly too. Break-in will fix that narrow soundstage issue in no time.

Step 3. Buy a new mains power cable for the 1077. Ignore the science on this and have faith instead. If you've spent more money it must be an improvement. Right?

Step 4. Concentrate on the music/movies for a while, not the equipment. You'll be amazed how quickly you forget it's a 1077 that's playing. In fact you could probably stick a 1077 label on your 1065 and save yourself a few bucks too.

Step 5. If Steps 1-4 don't work, then I'm afraid it's back to the beer remedy, though in moderation of course!

[w6000]

Jerry, Jerry, Jerry.....I don't really care one way or the other about the 1077, I just keep up with this thread for the contradictions of it all, that makes for some good reading...Soundgravy heard something different than you, and something has to be wrong? This is just a simple observation, not a question that needs an answer.

Deleated

[Aussie Geoff]

Indeed gentlemen, we all must respect each others opinions. I concur with Geoff specs are constant. Let's discuss the sound and remember sound is subjective as well. It would be sad to lock such an enjoyable and informative thread. Let's not perpetuate the problem, but maintain charisma. The balls in your court.

Peace and blessings gentlemen,

Azeke

Say's it all for me... Peace and Blessings...

[RobP]

Soundgravy, I've got a few suggestions that will make the 1077 sound better - sensible suggestions this time, not like drinking half a gallon of beer which may be detrimental to your health...

Step 1. Buy the 1077. No-one likes admitting they've bought a lemon so your brain will automatically compensate by improving the sound quality.

Step 2. Allow for "break-in" time. Break-in is a psychological phenomenon that enables an opinion about an amp to change dramatically, and quite quickly too. Break-in will fix that narrow soundstage issue in no time.

Step 3. Buy a new mains power cable for the 1077. Ignore the science on this and have faith instead. If you've spent more money it must be an improvement. Right?

Step 4. Concentrate on the music/movies for a while, not the equipment. You'll be amazed how quickly you forget it's a 1077 that's playing. In fact you could probably stick a 1077 label on your 1065 and save yourself a few bucks too.

Step 5. If Steps 1-4 don't work, then I'm afraid it's back to the beer remedy, though in moderation of course!

:laughat: :roflmao: Thanks for the laughs Bigburner!!

You know step 4 has alot of truth to it!!! I dont know how many times I have gone to our local movie theater here, and when the movie starts it sounds like total crap, but halfway through the movie I seem to forget how bad it sounds.
Think about this for a second, Have you ever visited a persons home who lives close to train tracks, an airport, or a busy intersection and you think damn, how can you live around this noise? Nine times out of ten that person will look at you and say "what noise?". Stick around for awhile, and you would be saying the same thing.
I think the same goes for people who think that an amp sounds harsh at first but later it changes and sounds better to them, was it the amp or did your ears grow calloused?

[rdram]

soundhound wrote:

Jerry, Jerry, Jerry.....I don't really care one way or the other about the 1077, I just keep up with this thread for the contradictions of it all, that makes for some good reading...Soundgravy heard something different than you, and something has to be wrong? This is just a simple observation, not a question that needs an answer.

Agree. Hearing is a very subjective thing. If a piece of equipment sounds "lacking" to someone, it doesn't necessarily mean something in the setup was wrong, it just means what it means. We all hear differently.

In the late 60's when I when around 15 or so, I had a stupid accident happen which ruptured...blew apart actually...my right eardrum. Thanks to a great doctor who was able to piece together my eardrum, my hearing was restored. However, one side effect that I've lived with all my life is "tinnitus", which you may know is a constant ringing...for me in both ears, due to the nerve damage I sustained. If any of you have it, you know how annoying it can be at times, if you don't have it, consider yourself fortunate. Anyway, the point of this is that over the last year or so the tinnitus seems to have gotten worse, so I now have my hearing checked annually just to monitor for any future hearing loss that may happen. Had my first exam last November, had my second this past Friday. Happy to report I can still hear ok, but this time I got to see the chart they print out after the test. I have a differential hearing loss (between the left and right ear) of between 15-20db's centered at about 4000hz. Not from the accident, but from life's circumstances. To much exposure to noise and not enough protection. Not uncommon either according to the doctor. Maybe it was that Deep Purple concert in '71.

Our ears are not perfect transducers and we don't live in anechoic chambers. I am no expert in this, but it would seem to me that when I hear something it must sound slightly different than it does to someone else because of that 15-20 db dip at 4000hz. Maybe not a drastic difference, but how much of a difference do you need to form opinions on the factors described by terms like "airy, compressed or boxy". The same would apply to all of us. Your hearing is dependent on so many environmental factors...the long term exposure to noise, that ear infection you had when you where a toddler...who knows. Maybe that's why there are hundreds of different brands of speakers and components on the market which their owners swear are the best they've heard...maybe to them they are.

RD

[Eliav]

Soundgravy, I've got a few suggestions that will make the 1077 sound better - sensible suggestions this time, not like drinking half a gallon of beer which may be detrimental to your health...

Step 1. Buy the 1077. No-one likes admitting they've bought a lemon so your brain will automatically compensate by improving the sound quality.

Step 2. Allow for "break-in" time. Break-in is a psychological phenomenon that enables an opinion about an amp to change dramatically, and quite quickly too. Break-in will fix that narrow soundstage issue in no time.

Step 3. Buy a new mains power cable for the 1077. Ignore the science on this and have faith instead. If you've spent more money it must be an improvement. Right?

Step 4. Concentrate on the music/movies for a while, not the equipment. You'll be amazed how quickly you forget it's a 1077 that's playing. In fact you could probably stick a 1077 label on your 1065 and save yourself a few bucks too.

Step 5. If Steps 1-4 don't work, then I'm afraid it's back to the beer remedy, though in moderation of course!

;x(
Eliav

[Eliav]

soundhound wrote:


Agree. Hearing is a very subjective thing. If a piece of equipment sounds "lacking" to someone, it doesn't necessarily mean something in the setup was wrong, it just means what it means. We all hear differently.

In the late 60's when I when around 15 or so, I had a stupid accident happen which ruptured...blew apart actually...my right eardrum. Thanks to a great doctor who was able to piece together my eardrum, my hearing was restored. However, one side effect that I've lived with all my life is "tinnitus", which you may know is a constant ringing...for me in both ears, due to the nerve damage I sustained. If any of you have it, you know how annoying it can be at times, if you don't have it, consider yourself fortunate. Anyway, the point of this is that over the last year or so the tinnitus seems to have gotten worse, so I now have my hearing checked annually just to monitor for any future hearing loss that may happen. Had my first exam last November, had my second this past Friday. Happy to report I can still hear ok, but this time I got to see the chart they print out after the test. I have a differential hearing loss (between the left and right ear) of between 15-20db's centered at about 4000hz. Not from the accident, but from life's circumstances. To much exposure to noise and not enough protection. Not uncommon either according to the doctor. Maybe it was that Deep Purple concert in '71.

Our ears are not perfect transducers and we don't live in anechoic chambers. I am no expert in this, but it would seem to me that when I hear something it must sound slightly different than it does to someone else because of that 15-20 db dip at 4000hz. Maybe not a drastic difference, but how much of a difference do you need to form opinions on the factors described by terms like "airy, compressed or boxy". The same would apply to all of us. Your hearing is dependent on so many environmental factors...the long term exposure to noise, that ear infection you had when you where a toddler...who knows. Maybe that's why there are hundreds of different brands of speakers and components on the market which their owners swear are the best they've heard...maybe to them they are.

RD

Hi
I agree, music perception is a very subjective perception.
There is a big difference between music perception / spatial perceprtion and pure tone testing. What you have had is a pure tone audiometry, it does not measure higher centers processing such as brainstem and cortex where our "experience" of music takes place. a hearing loss at 4Khz is common after head injuries and phonal trauma. 15-20 dB loss at 4Khz is considered normal hearing in adults.
another interesting fact that people tend to forget is that the human ears are not transmitting all frequencies at the same loudness, the middle ear mechanism is built to transmit frequencies between 500-2000hz more efficiently, human hearing ability is certainly not linear throughout the frequency range !
Eliav

[Blazar]

I wrote a review of the Panasonic SA-XR55 on the avsforum amp forum. My prior setup was a rotel 1095 amp. Except for almost non-existant baseline "hiss" there is no obvious perceivable difference between the two units except that the xr55 uses less power (more efficient), has 7 channels, weighs only 10 pounds, runs cooler, and is only $230 bucks.

I basically sold the rotel 1095 and shipped it off to its new owner and kept the panasonic since it sounds at least as good, if not better at times. I'm also selling my m-audio delta 1010 d/a converter since the panasonic can do it all and still sound as good.

I use B&W 802D's with my $230 panasonic and I'm very happy with the performance for the last week that I've had it.

It wouldn't surprise me that the rotel 1077 sounds great, I'm currently doubtful of it's current cash/retail value though considering how inexpensive the technology is becoming.

[mattburk]

I wrote a review of the Panasonic SA-XR55 on the avsforum amp forum. My prior setup was a rotel 1095 amp. Except for almost non-existant baseline "hiss" there is no obvious perceivable difference between the two units except that the xr55 uses less power (more efficient), has 7 channels, weighs only 10 pounds, runs cooler, and is only $230 bucks.

I basically sold the rotel 1095 and shipped it off to its new owner and kept the panasonic since it sounds at least as good, if not better at times. I'm also selling my m-audio delta 1010 d/a converter since the panasonic can do it all and still sound as good.

I use B&W 802D's with my $230 panasonic and I'm very happy with the performance for the last week that I've had it.

It wouldn't surprise me that the rotel 1077 sounds great, I'm currently doubtful of it's current cash/retail value though considering how inexpensive the technology is becoming.

To each his own. I compared it to a 1k onkyo avr and the $200 panny cannot even keep up with that as far as sheer power & dynamics are concerned.

[DrJRapp]

I basically sold the rotel 1095 and shipped it off to its new owner and kept the panasonic since it sounds at least as good, if not better at times.

It wouldn't surprise me that the rotel 1077 sounds great, I'm currently doubtful of it's current cash/retail value though considering how inexpensive the technology is becoming.

I've been following your thread over at AVS with interest since it was the clean sound my Panny XR 25 that originally prompted me to experiment with the RB 1077. I do like the sound of the 1077 better than the Panny. To me it's a bit warmer. The Pany is so clean that it sounds "dry" to me. The 1077 sounds more like a Rotel. As far as value goes, there are those of us who will see the same or more value in a $53K Lexus as in a $11K Scion. It depends on ones perspective I guess. I'm sure that if I put my 1077 up for sale I'd have more takers at a higher resale PERCENTAGE than my used XR25. That, to me helps define economic value. By the way, I'll bet you sold your 1095 for real close to what you paid for it!

[Feisal K]

Jerry, if you had a XR45 though... the last one I saw on ebay fetched $350+

[DrJRapp]

Jerry, if you had a XR45 though... the last one I saw on ebay fetched $350+

I don't think that's a trend that can be universally applied. Neither will it last long. Does anone know what the 45 sold for originally?

[Feisal K]

no - it's an anomaly; the XR45 was something special, not in itself, but rather what Newform Research did with it, and subsequently for other Equibit/PurePath amps.

there were a few models before the '45 - 10, 15 and 30 - a generation prior to the 25/45 but they didn't gain the notoriety

[Blazar]

To each his own. I compared it to a 1k onkyo avr and the $200 panny cannot even keep up with that as far as sheer power & dynamics are concerned.

The panny sounded just as good as the rotel 1095.... easily. And the 1095 is a beast of a unit. I'm not going to make sensationalist claims that it is the greatest thing in the universe, but it certainly sounds fantastic for $230 bucks. At that price WHO CARES what the resale value is. The shipping and handling to buy and sell most amps is more expensive than the panny.

All I'm saying is that I believe that the rotel 1077 must sound good. The only thing that I think it's missing is that it lacks 7 channel voltage rail volume control like the ps audio products. It also has to rely on good outboard d/a conversion as well and the panasonic does pcm->pwm straight conversion. In either case, this is where the future of this technology is going... and it sounds pretty darn good to me.

[DrJRapp]

I've really been trying to audition this amp with the B&W 803Ds, but have been unsucessful in finding a dealer that has that combination available, so yesterday I got to listen with the 803S's. While listening I had Soundgravy's comments in mind about the upper fequency compression. I heard none of that. What I did hear was a significant amount of silbance that results from the combination of the extended top end of the 1077 (by comparison with a typical Rotel amp),with the brightness of the 803S's. I can easily see why those who like a distant and rounded sound may not favor this amp over a more conventional sounding Rotel amp with the 803S's. What I additionally found interesting was the fact that I don't get the same effect from my RF7s which are considered a "bright" speaker that prefers a more rounded amp.

Now if I could only find the ellusive 803Ds....it seems most dealers can't keep them around very long.

[mattburk]

The panny sounded just as good as the rotel 1095.... easily. And the 1095 is a beast of a unit. I'm not going to make sensationalist claims that it is the greatest thing in the universe, but it certainly sounds fantastic for $230 bucks. At that price WHO CARES what the resale value is. The shipping and handling to buy and sell most amps is more expensive than the panny.

All I'm saying is that I believe that the rotel 1077 must sound good. The only thing that I think it's missing is that it lacks 7 channel voltage rail volume control like the ps audio products. It also has to rely on good outboard d/a conversion as well and the panasonic does pcm->pwm straight conversion. In either case, this is where the future of this technology is going... and it sounds pretty darn good to me.

I respectfully disagree, the panny is good for the money but not as good as the 1k avr's I compared it with.

[shadow]

I respectfully disagree, the panny is good for the money but not as good as the 1k avr's I compared it with.

You already gave your opinion earlier in this thread. The poster has extraordinary speakers which in his opinion sound as good or better with the Panasonic than his Rotel. Unless you have the same speakers, I see no reason for this additional post since we already know what you think.

[Aussie Geoff]

Sigh.... :scratchhead:

Please - let's be nice to each other...