Rotel's RMB-1077 - A Second Look

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  • RebelMan
    Ultra Senior Member
    • Mar 2005
    • 3139

    Rotel's RMB-1077 - A Second Look

    A week ago I took the opportunity to audition Rotel's newest power amplifier member, the RMB-1077. It was a first impression that... well... didn't impress but it didn't unimpress either. This stands to reason as the competition was rather unfair to start with. The results were hardly surprising given that a mostly audiophile grade lineup was going up against a mostly HT grade lineup, which consisted of the RMB-1077. (Both cases utilized all Rotel gear.) Hence, it was not only appropriate but necessary that a second demonstration consisting of a more controlled setup be given.

    As many of us know, most dealerships are not conducive to conducting controlled listening tests. Not surprising, as most are in the business for selling equipment and not testing it. Be that as it may, the salesman, whom I worked with before (last week) accommodated my desire to conduct a more controlled audition by enlisting one of their custom installers to assist.

    The enclosed room was standard fair replicating typical sound damping materials one would find in an average home such as carpeted floors and several moderately sized paintings scattered throughout the room. The room measured about 20Wx15Lx10H feet and the listening position, consisting of a leather couch, was centered about ten feet away from each speaker.

    A wide equipment rack, waist high, was situated to the left and several pairs of stand mounted bookshelf speakers were to be had on the right. Immediately in front of the couch sat a coffee table. Flush against the wall and sandwiched between the two speakers sat a credenza that supported the equipment under test. No windows or other highly reflective material was present in the room other than the double glass doors that led in from the back and to the right.

    The equipment for review included Rotel's RMB-1077 and RMB-1095 and Classe's CA-2200 power amplifiers. Each working in tandem with Classe's CDP-100 CD player and CP-500 pre-amplifier and B&W 803S's speakers. The music of choice was Fourplay's Fourplay, Track 1 "Bali Run" , Track 5 "Max-O-Man" and Track 10 "Wish You Were Here." Other than the power amplifiers that alternated between the rest of the gear, nothing changed. Not the inputs, not the controls, nor the speakers. Only the power amplifiers and manually at that. No switching devices of any kind. All equipment and speakers met or exceeded their respective break in periods. The speakers sat about 4 to 5 feet from the back wall and were spread about 8 feet apart.

    The session began with the RMB-1077. As before I wanted to distinguish if this amp lacked any air. All three tracks consist of good use of piano keys, cymbals and tambourines. Like before the upper details were all there, perhaps a tad bit dry but present. Though it didn't turn me off I just noticed it. However, what sent me wheeling was the power and authority of bass produce from the same tracks that are also littered with percussion and bass guitar. I have seen many people comment on the strengths of Class-D amplifiers when it comes low end delivery and the RMB-1077 was no exception. It was impressive. In fact it brought to life the 803S's in such a way that I insisted that the installer had the 803D's hooked up and not the 803S's. I questioned him about this on several occasions. Still unwilling to take his word, I checked for myself. It was in fact the 803S's!

    Next stop was the RMB-1095. I noted nothing spectacularly different between the 1077 and the 1095. However, I got the sense that the 1095 was a little more expressive on top. Slightly analytical sounding but not harsh. Bass seemed ample but not quite as pronounced as with the 1077.

    Going back and forth between the 1077 and 1095 several times afforded me a consistent impression of each amps relative strengths and weaknesses. Now was the time for Classe's CA-2200 to enter the picture. My first reaction to the CA-2200 seemed to be its ability to capture my attention in a way that neither of the other two amps did or could. The CA-2200 embraced the qualities of the music and set it free to be one with the listener. The sound was simply put smooth and pleasant. It seemed to take and improve upon the best elements of the other two amps, the 1077 for its prodigious bass and the 1095 for its presentation of sound-staging.

    Bearing in mind that these subjective observations "seemed" to hold true, and my descriptions of each distinguished, I realized that the differences while noticeable really weren't that... well... different. It was mostly a different "feeling" that I got when listening to each not that the music reproduced was that much different. I spent considerable time carefully listening to each and to be honest I suspect I would be hard pressed to differentiate one from another had this been a double blind A/B/X test. It was that close. (This coming from a person that recently scored a perfect hearing test.) Which leads me to conclude, and what I always believed, that next to the quality of the recording, room acoustics and speakers, the pre-amplifier and source device take precedence in-terms of accurate sound reproduction under normal listening conditions such as these.

    Therefore, I conclude that the RMB-1077 would make a fine addition to ANY system!

    P.S. On another note. The Classe' setup (source device, pre-amplifier and power amplifier) breathed new life into the 803S's in such a way, and I am NOT exaggerating, that it may completely negate any immediacy to upgrade my speakers to either the 803D's or the 802D's, it was that damn good. I believe I have FINALLY found the enveloping sound that I have been searching for so long from my 803S's. As many of you probably know by now how overly impressed I am with Bryston. I say without hesitation that they now have some serious competition on their hands.
    "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."
  • Pieter
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2005
    • 219

    #2
    Originally posted by RebelMan
    The enclosed room was standard fair replicating typical sound damping materials one would find in an average home....No windows or other highly reflective material was present in the room other than the double glass doors that led in from the back and to the right.
    No mention of what you were wearing?

    Jokes aside, thanks for an informative review. Been following the RB1077 comments with interest, but mostly skepticism. Still itching to hear one though...proof of the pudding.

    Comment

    • DrJRapp
      Super Senior Member
      • Apr 2003
      • 1204

      #3
      Originally posted by RebelMan
      Therefore, I conclude that the RMB-1077 would make a fine addition to ANY system!
      Nice job! Must have been fun! What were your initial impressions of the soundstage and image? Those are the only two weaknesses of the 1077 as far as I am concerned. Those characteristics are what I believe contribute to the 1077 sounding a bit "dry" as you described it.
      Last edited by DrJRapp; 08 December 2005, 07:50 Thursday.
      Jerry Rappaport

      Comment

      • Kobus
        Senior Member
        • Aug 2005
        • 402

        #4
        Thanks Rebelman. I dont think I need any more convincing for a new amp for my N803.

        This must rate as one of the best - from dad to dad - christmas gifts.

        Kobus

        Comment

        • grit
          Senior Member
          • Jan 2005
          • 580

          #5
          Originally posted by RebelMan
          Bearing in mind that these subjective observations "seemed" to hold true, and my descriptions of each distinguished, I realized that the differences while noticeable really weren't that... well... different. It was mostly a different "feeling" that I got when listening to each not that the music reproduced was that much different. I spent considerable time carefully listening to each and to be honest I suspect I would be hard pressed to differentiate one from another had this been a double blind A/B/X test. It was that close. (This coming from a person that recently scored a perfect hearing test.) Which leads me to conclude, and what I always believed, that next to the quality of the recording, room acoustics and speakers, the pre-amplifier and source device take precedence in-terms of accurate sound reproduction under normal listening conditions such as these.
          ................
          P.S. On another note. The Classe' setup (source device, pre-amplifier and power amplifier) breathed new life into the 803S's in such a way, and I am NOT exaggerating, that it may completely negate any immediacy to upgrade my speakers to either the 803D's or the 802D's, it was that damn good. I believe I have FINALLY found the enveloping sound that I have been searching for so long from my 803S's. As many of you probably know by now how overly impressed I am with Bryston. I say without hesitation that they now have some serious competition on their hands.
          I'm sorry to ask, because I almost certainly know the answer... you mean you could not accurately detect the 1077 vs the 1095? I presume the Classe was noticibly different and you COULD pick it out of a blind test?

          Comment

          • Gump
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2005
            • 522

            #6
            Rebelman,

            I must have just missed you by a couple of hours at SML. They told me someone else was coming in later for a similar demo.

            I pretty much concur with your findings.

            Check out my comments on DrJRapp's "...tales of the RMB 1077" if your curious.

            Comment

            • Gump
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2005
              • 522

              #7
              "Bass seemed ample but not quite as pronounced..."

              Interesting that our perceptions differ a bit with the 1077 bass vs the 1095, though. Although I felt that the 1077's bass was more than adequate and perhaps even a little better defined than the 1095's, it seemed to me that the 1095 had that "floor vibrating effect" to a greater extent than the 1077.

              It's a pretty minor difference though and overall I think that we're pretty much in agreement in our conclusions. 8)

              Comment

              • RobP
                Ultra Senior Member
                • Nov 2004
                • 4747

                #8
                Good review Rebelman! I went to my dealer last weekend to take home the 1077 for a try, but somehow I got sidetracked and took home a Martin Logan Descent subwoofer instead. (Great subwoofer!!)
                I did take another listen to the 1077 while I was there and came to the same conclusions as I did before, great controlled bass, but lacking (for me) in the upper end. Kind of sterile sounding.
                Robert P. 8)

                AKA "Soundgravy"

                Comment

                • RebelMan
                  Ultra Senior Member
                  • Mar 2005
                  • 3139

                  #9
                  Originally posted by DrJRapp
                  Nice job! Must have been fun! What were your initial impressions of the soundstage and image? Those are the only two weaknesses of the 1077 as far as I am concerned. Those characteristics are what I believe contribute to the 1077 sounding a bit "dry" as you described it.
                  Thanks Jerry. I was suppose to meet the dealer around 4:00 PM that evening but other more important things came up, like my wife. I met with them around 6:00 PM and I was there until 8:45 PM. I was in no hurry to leave and I put the poor installer guy, who remained right up there until the very end, through quite a bit. However, they close at 8:00 PM and I had to consider the fact that "other" people probably wanted to go home. Yeah, I was thoroughly enjoying myself, to say the least.

                  At first I didn't sense any significant lack of sound-staging. I believe the weight and power of the lower octaves masked that to some degree. But the A/B comparison with the other two amplifiers revealed this slight deficiency. Imaging didn't seem quite as impaired. Any weaknesses I noticed here I attributed to "cause and effect". I believe the slight reduction in sound-staging had a negative effect on imaging more so than any short comings of the amp itself.
                  "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                  Comment

                  • RebelMan
                    Ultra Senior Member
                    • Mar 2005
                    • 3139

                    #10
                    Originally posted by grit
                    I'm sorry to ask, because I almost certainly know the answer... you mean you could not accurately detect the 1077 vs the 1095? I presume the Classe was noticibly different and you COULD pick it out of a blind test?
                    I could detect the difference but it took a razor sharp ear to do it. Pound for pound the 1077 knocks the 1095 out of the park. While the 1077 lacks certain finesse compared to the 1095 it more than made up for it in shear power. Mind you the differences were subtle for both ends of the spectrum so each has its place. But given the shear size and bulk of the 1095, I would take the 1077 over it anyday of the week and twice on Sundays.

                    The thing about the Classe that was immediately apparent was its ability to draw the listener in with out any effort on their part. I didn't have to focus or concentrate on the subtle nuances that the CA-2200 possessed. The CA-2200 sounded buttery smooth and delicious. These adjectives are typically used to describe other senses but that was how the amp "felt" to me. I loved every savory moment of it.
                    "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                    Comment

                    • RebelMan
                      Ultra Senior Member
                      • Mar 2005
                      • 3139

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Gump
                      Interesting that our perceptions differ a bit with the 1077 bass vs the 1095, though. Although I felt that the 1077's bass was more than adequate and perhaps even a little better defined than the 1095's, it seemed to me that the 1095 had that "floor vibrating effect" to a greater extent than the 1077.

                      It's a pretty minor difference though and overall I think that we're pretty much in agreement in our conclusions. 8)
                      I noticed your post after I made mine. I found it interesting and encouraging that two different people in similar places at two different times came to similar conclusions.

                      I spent a great deal of my time tuning my ears AND my body to the low end sounds produced by both amps. I preface this, again, by saying that the differences are subtle but the 1077 "literally" moved me more than the 1095 did. I grasped the couch and closed my eyes allowing me to concentrate on two of my now heightened senses, that of touch and sound. I could distinguish with relative easy the differences between the two. Perhaps the 1077's ability to channel a more directional thrust is to blame. In any event I liked what I heard and I agree that it was minor.
                      "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                      Comment

                      • gd
                        Senior Member
                        • Jan 2003
                        • 583

                        #12
                        At the risk of wearing out your welcome at the dealer...

                        Is it possible to add a Classe CA-5200 to the comparison?... might be a little more apples-to-apples to compare only multi-channel amps... I'm thinking (but not knowing) that a dedicated 2-ch Classe amp would kick very many butts, possibly including those of all multi-ch power amps.

                        Just askin'... thanks for the review, BTW.
                        .
                        greg (gd to you)
                        .
                        Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring
                        production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid.

                        Frank Zappa

                        Comment

                        • RebelMan
                          Ultra Senior Member
                          • Mar 2005
                          • 3139

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Soundgravy
                          Good review Rebelman! I went to my dealer last weekend to take home the 1077 for a try, but somehow I got sidetracked and took home a Martin Logan Descent subwoofer instead. (Great subwoofer!!)
                          I did take another listen to the 1077 while I was there and came to the same conclusions as I did before, great controlled bass, but lacking (for me) in the upper end. Kind of sterile sounding.
                          Thanks SG. I hope you didn't give up your ASW-850 for it!!!

                          The 1077 does seem to exhibit some, very slight, top end compression but it only became evident when compared to other high calibur amps like the CA-2200. To me the 1077's biggest weakness comes from its inability to engage the listener. It lacked a naturalness to it. In other words it took some work listening to the finer details of it. Still all of the details were there. Perhaps not in a way one would expect but nothing was missing. I am talking about hair splitting differences and as such I would have no hesitation choosing it over the 1095.
                          "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                          Comment

                          • RebelMan
                            Ultra Senior Member
                            • Mar 2005
                            • 3139

                            #14
                            Originally posted by gd
                            At the risk of wearing out your welcome at the dealer...

                            Is it possible to add a Classe CA-5200 to the comparison?... might be a little more apples-to-apples to compare only multi-channel amps... I'm thinking (but not knowing) that a dedicated 2-ch Classe amp would kick very many butts, possibly including those of all multi-ch power amps.

                            Just askin'... thanks for the review, BTW.
                            Actually that was "my" plan. The dealer didn't have one on hand. However, I doubt the differences between the CA-2200 and the CA-5200 would be more noticable than the differences between the CA-2200 and the RMB-1077 were. Thanks for the kind words too.
                            "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                            Comment

                            • RobP
                              Ultra Senior Member
                              • Nov 2004
                              • 4747

                              #15
                              There are really no differences between the CA5200 and tha CA2200 as far as sound quality goes, I listened to both of them on Wilson Audio Watt Puppies, you just get more channels of that lovely sound.
                              Robert P. 8)

                              AKA "Soundgravy"

                              Comment

                              • Andrew M Ward
                                Senior Member
                                • Apr 2005
                                • 717

                                #16
                                Originally posted by gd
                                At the risk of wearing out your welcome at the dealer...

                                Is it possible to add a Classe CA-5200 to the comparison?... might be a little more apples-to-apples to compare only multi-channel amps... I'm thinking (but not knowing) that a dedicated 2-ch Classe amp would kick very many butts, possibly including those of all multi-ch power amps.

                                Just askin'... thanks for the review, BTW.

                                The CA-5200 will sound exactly like the CA-2200

                                Classe' makes one power amp module and uses it in all their amplifiers, even the CA-2100 is the same 200 watt module with reduced output devices, so it also sounds like the other 200 watt Classe' amps.

                                This is done specifically for the reasons:

                                ~Consistent sound uniformity in the line
                                ~Consistent performance and product service-ability
                                ~Consistent manufacturing and reliability

                                But to the consumer the benefit is "They all sound like each other" so if you like the Classe' sound you get it throughout the line...

                                Comment

                                • gd
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Jan 2003
                                  • 583

                                  #17
                                  Thanks for the feedback... you'd think other mfr's would go for that kind of continuity.

                                  Not even sure why I asked -- the only way I'd ever be able to afford Classe would be used and/or discontinued model.

                                  Still, information is good.
                                  .
                                  greg (gd to you)
                                  .
                                  Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring
                                  production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid.

                                  Frank Zappa

                                  Comment

                                  • shadow
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Dec 2003
                                    • 315

                                    #18
                                    Well, they do. Krell's top amps have always been the same inside other than WPC. Same with Mark Levinson last I looked a few years ago. I also do not think there is much difference in the Rotel amps other than WPC.

                                    Comment

                                    • JJK
                                      Junior Member
                                      • Nov 2004
                                      • 5

                                      #19
                                      Soundgravy
                                      I sent you an email to get your take on the 850 vs. the Descent.
                                      Joel

                                      Comment

                                      • Andrew M Ward
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Apr 2005
                                        • 717

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by shadow
                                        Well, they do. Krell's top amps have always been the same inside other than WPC. Same with Mark Levinson last I looked a few years ago. I also do not think there is much difference in the Rotel amps other than WPC.

                                        (Sorry) This is a completely false statement...

                                        I worked for Levinson and they never (I mean never) used any of the same design components from amp to amp, in fact different guys designed different amplifiers!

                                        And how does Krell only change WPC and not other design factors? Carefull how you answer... some folks have looked inside Krell amplifiers and observed the topology differences and counted the parts differnces from amp to amp...

                                        Basically, in the industry it's non-exsistent what Classe' is doing. As far as one 200 watt amplifier module ~ doubling it for 400 Watts or reducing output devices for 100 watts... I mean seriously, Classe' makes one amplifier!

                                        and Classe' didn't even do it until 18 months ago.

                                        Comment

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