Watch Out Krell, here comes Rotel:tales of the RMB 1077

[Aussie Geoff]

bzrk,

It should be perfect for the 705s they are rated at 120W and love powerful amplifiers... You plan is a sound one since the RMB-1077 should be able to also drive your expanded system very well

Geoff

[shadow]

It is always better if you can buy components that will last years, not months in your system, given the depreciation that home audio gear tends to suffer. You also can never have too much amp, since insufficient power is usually more dangerous to your speakers. The 1077 should last you many years and upgrades to your speaker setup.

[bzrk]

thanks for the replies

i hope to buy this setup in the beginning of december. Ill offcourse post my findings

[Nolan B]

Need some opinions on the choice I have coming my way before I make it. Right now I have a RSX 1055, and a budgt to either keep it and get a 1077, or trade it in and get a RSP 1068 and RMB 1075.

Should this be an obvious choice?

[gianni]

If I were you I'd muster all the patience I could and think long term.
Get the 1077 for now. Even if you have to use the 1055 for a couple of years you are not going to hear huge differences compared to the 1068.

Then, a couple of years down the road, you could get the replacement to the 1068. This is of course, assuming there are not a features on the 1068 you just have to have now. This way you'll be set fot quite a while. As of today, with the exception of a little flexibility, I don't think the 1068 has any "must have" items over the 1055 unless you will use the video switching. I will bet that the replacement to the 1068 will have features you may desire more than what the 1068 will offer over the 1055.

Just my opinion but this is my thinking as to when I will replace my 1055.
BTW, I did do some comparisons, so this is based on a little research. The 1068 was better, but it was a subtle difference and it did not have features I just had to have. I'm waiting for the next generation. I'd focus on the amps now, then you'll be well prepared later. If the 1068 successor is a disappointment, at that time you'll find a deal on the 1068.

[mattburk]

Anyone else get this beast yet? How about some more reviews.

[Dozer42]

Had mine for over a week now, just got the Sherwood P-965 Preamp (w/SNAP RoomEQ) in a couple days ago. Will post a review after this weekend most likely.

It's awesome. Flat out incredible. I've never heard such precise control of the woofers in my system.

[CellarMan]

Now, about the sound. It's definitly Rotel, clean, clear and musical. However, it has much more of the mid and low end weight of the Krell Showcase or a Halo A51. I swear there is low bass coming from my Klipsch RF7s that I've never heard when they were powered by the RMB 1075 or the RB1080. I cranked her up for a rendition of the "Stars and Stripes" played by the Boston Pops to a level that could be heard by just about the entire neighborhood, and, incidentally, brought complaints from my kids upstairs for drowning out their Rap, which they always play at insane (and distorted) levels. At those levels I didn't experience any "compression" of the sound as I would expect from an amp sporting only 100wpc.

Right now the soundstage seems a bit flat front to back and also a bit narrow. However, I really think that I need to give her some run in time before I pick that apart.

I'll be back!!!!

Now for the real embarrasing part. In my rush to get the amp up and running so I could get the word out to all of you I had reversed left and right channels. I'm sure this had a lot of effect on perceived soundfield while playing already familiar material. I'm not listening critically yet so I'll reserve final judgement on soundfield for a bit yet. I just finished checking everything out and calibrating with DVE and Avia.

I too would be interested in more opinions (It is a lot of money to spend)
Edited by Aussie Geoff to bring into line with forum standards

Cellarman

[Dozer42]

Cellarman,

It sounds like it's not the amp for you if you're not willing to buy one, listen for yourself, and return it if needed. Only your ears can tell you if it's right for you.

That's why when my dealer said 'no returns' I said 'no sale', he tried a 7-day 100% refund, I insisted on a 30-day 100% refund. He wasn't sure about the amp, he'd never heard it. I'd never heard it, so I insisted, and he relented.

Turns out it's an incredible amp, and there's no way in hell he's getting it back unless he can pry it from my cold dead fingers. :B

[Kirium]

LOL.... The more I hear about this amp, the more it's tweaking my interest.

[DrJRapp]

LOL.... The more I hear about this amp, the more it's tweaking my interest.

The more I listen to this amp the more endeering it gets. It seems to improve daily even though I probably have several hundred hours on it by now. I tried to convince myself that it was just me "adjusting my ears", but I went back to my reference disks that I use for comparison and listen critically to some of the points that stood out before. Conclusion: Yes, the amp has continued to open up on the top end.

[grit]

I spoke to another person who's tested the 1077. They said they were very impressed and the amp exceeded their expectations, but they still did not feel it had quite the same control as the 1080. Any compare/contrast you can offer there?

[DrJRapp]

I spoke to another person who's tested the 1077. They said they were very impressed and the amp exceeded their expectations, but they still did not feel it had quite the same control as the 1080. Any compare/contrast you can offer there?

In terms of real control, not spec numbers, the 1077 walks all over the 1080, it is a much tigher, faster amp. That's not from a brief test, it's after listening to a 1080 for a year and the 1077, now for about 200 hours.

[shadow]

In terms of real control, not spec numbers, the 1077 walks all over the 1080, it is a much tigher, faster amp. That's not from a brief test, it's after listening to a 1080 for a year and the 1077, now for about 200 hours.

This is the type of observation that is very helpful to readers here. We know Jerry has extensive experience in his home with both amps in his own system. While the details of the comparison are not listed, I suspect the fellow quoted above heard it in a showroom and made a snap judgment under those circumstances, which is hardly conclusive. Finally, Jerry made the ultimate decision on comparative sound quality by selling his 1080. Thanks for your continued insights, Jerry.

[DrJRapp]

You are welcome. I too get a bit distressed by posts that take pot shots at any product without any real qualification or details. However, it seems to happen to Rotel more than other products. I've also found it distressing that I have visited 3 different Rotel dealers in the past month (while auditioning B&W speakers) and all three had the same attitude about the 1077, they wern't going to take this pint size product very seriously. In fact not one of them had even ordered one for demo.

The 1077 is a very serious product, and dispite it's size performs like a colosus. I see the amp as the opening volly for Rotel to propel itself into a different position in the marketplace. Honestly, I get upset by people who think that Rotel is somehow inferior to the rest of the "high end" just because it is lower priced. That's like saying a Corvette Z06 is inferior to a Ferrari F430 just because it's 1/3 the price, without consideration of the actual performance of the two, which is very similar. One of the reasons that I gravitate to Rotel is the fact that it offers performance well beyond it's pricepoint, and deserves to be thought of with the best. Understand that I can afford anything I want for my own use, but prefer Rotel. Remember, a fool and his money are soon parted.

Ok...I'll get off my soap box!

[boffo]

Possible problem w/1077

Hi, Folks. I just found this forum and am dying to do some in depth viewing.
Anyway, I just received an RMB 1077 and am very impressed with the sound quality.

But I have a problem that seems to be similar to the popping noise problem with some 1066's. I have it coupled to a 1098 (software v. 1.1.4) and since I hooked it up I get that annoying pop whenever I change channels on the digital satellite, whenever the audio feed changes on a channel (for instance, from Dolby Digital to Pro Logic), when I change inputs etc.

I did not have this problem with my other amp, the 1095; it just started happening when I hooked in the 1077.

Any advice, please?

Thanks in advance.

So far as the 1077's sound quality, I'm still breaking it in but so far I'm very impressed with what I've heard, with both music and movies.

Cheers

[DrJRapp]

Jim

Welcome to the club and congrats on your 1077 acquisition. This "problem" may justify it's own tread. If I were a betting man, I would say that updating the software (and eprom) on your 1098 will solve the problem, and perhaps yeild some other benifits as well. I'd also bet that the Rotel dealer that just took your hard earned $$ for the 1077 would be very willing to do that for you for a very small fee.

[boffo]

Thanks for the kind welcome. I'll undoubtedly be here often!http://www.htguide.com/forum/newrepl...67&noquote=1&#
Big Grin
I was hoping the s/w upgrade to the 1098 would do it and I'm planning to try it myself later today. I have to upgrade to v1.8 first, then flash the EPROMS so I can keep going. I plan to take it right up to the current version. Downloaded all the stuff this afternoon and my son's coming over with a notebook that still has a serial port.
Sure hope that fixes it; it freaks me out and I hope it isn't damaging my beloved Deftechs. Funny it never reared its head with my other beloved Rotel amp, the 1095.

Anyway, will report back after the operation is completed and the patient is resting comfortably.

Cheers

[markmaple]

I just got my 1077 on Wednesday. I am quite impressed with the amp. However, I am getting the "pop" noise also when I change satellite channels. I wasn't noticing the pop with my old amps. I may hook them back up to verify. My RSP-1068 doesn't have the latest firmware, but the change notes on Rotel's site doesn't mention any change that sounds like a fix to this issue.

[boffo]

popping noise

Hi, folks.
Well, I upgraded my RSP 1098 to software V. 2x (the info on Rotel's site says not to take it past that, to V 3x even after upgrading the EPROM, which I also did).

Alas, it has made no difference to the popping, though I like some of the new features.

Anyone have any other suggestions as to what I can do?

Thanks very much,

Jim

[DrJRapp]

Jim

There are several things you can do. Have you discussed this issue with your dealer? I would drop Rotel a line or give them a call an they will walk you through some diagnostics. I had the popping show up awhile ago while I was still using my 1080 and Rotel service talked me through some diagnostics till we eventually solved the problem.

[boffo]

Thanks, Jerry.
I'll try that.

Cheers
Jim

[Feisal K]

Jim, off topic, but mrBoffo was one of my favourite comic strips

[Blazar]

anyone compared the rotel 1077 with the panasonic xr-55 yet? the xr-55 offers straight digital gain of digital signals converted directly to PWM. Volume control is performed by the same chip by increasing voltage.

Interestingly, based on the technology in TacT (equibit), panasonic (equibit), and other digital systems... we are well on our way back to eliminating separates and d/a converters and back to the integrated amp concept.

realize the panasonic is $240 and the rotel is over $2000 for just the amp. Rotel is simply recouperating their R&D cost more than anything. The technology itself is dirt cheap. Many of the digital manufacturers except the mainstream people like Panasonic are exploiting the new interest in these amps and charging a hefty premium.

TI's equibit chips only cost like $10 each... lol. This chip handles PCM to PWM conversion (eliminating traditional d/a converters), individual channel balance for a 7.1 system, handles volume control with a voltage gain concept, equilization and crossover features among other thing.

Any experience or comparisons? I'm going to go buy one of these at circuit city or something and do a trial of this compared to my current RMB 1095 amp and accompanying m-audio delta 1010 D/A converter from my pc. I'll hopefully be able to post back some results.

[gianni]

realize the panasonic is $240 and the rotel is over $2000 for just the amp. Rotel is simply recouperating their R&D cost more than anything. The technology itself is dirt cheap. Many of the digital manufacturers except the mainstream people like Panasonic are exploiting the new interest in these amps and charging a hefty premium.

I can't tell you what Rotel's margin is on the 1077. However, you have greatly over simplified this from a design stand point. Thses switching amps are still analog devices for the most part. The switching is done digitally, but analog circuits are still involved.

Yes we are all hoping for lower pricing as production of these amps spools up.
But I'll venture to say your above statement will be strongly refuted by many on this forum and elsewhere.

[Blazar]

Well you would first have to explain to me how a TacT unit that uses the same TI chips costs thousands more than a panasonic that is $240.

Clearly the TacT has better stats and likely sounds better... it also has a better overall feature set.

The fact remains however that when you look at the simple cost of materials... it's staggeringly cheaper.

The weight alone is about 1/5th as much given equal wattage output.

Lets not forget that the equibit technology also takes care of two other very expensive analog problems: good volume control AND d/a conversion.

The simple fact is that the rotel 1077 is still only an amp and still requires a quality volume control and quality d/a conversion. The analog signal from a d/a converter goes through another layer of processing compared to straight pcm signal processing, no?

[gianni]

Well you would first have to explain to me how a TacT unit that uses the same TI chips costs thousands more than a panasonic that is $240.

For starters, as you mention, there is more to it than a chipset.

Also, high end or boutique brands are going to have to spread development and production costs over far fewer units. Yes, ideally, we will eventually see a better cost/benefit ratios from these amps as there should be a savings to the manufacturer compared to traditional amps.

I too was hoping the 1077 would be less expensive. But Before we start bashing Rotel, lets see where other manufacturers in the same class price these amps. In the past, we have accepted the price difference between Rotel and mass market receivers. I doubt many people will argue that a RSX-1056 is no better than a $300 Panny, Sony, etc. If this technology can bring equivalent less expensive products to market, over time the pricing should inch down. With the competition we have today, someone will do it.

BTW, there are many mono and stereo amps using this technology that are priced well above Rotel as far as dollars/channel. Nuforce's ref8 which is being described as a good value would cost about $5,600 for 7 channels. Are you suggesting that the $240 Panny is going to sound identical to a Bel Canto evo? If its only about chips, all these amps would sound the same.

Of course, if the $240 Panasonic suits your needs and taste, by all means, enjoy it. At $240 it is a good value.

[Marlboroman]

I agree with this. The Rotel RMB-1077 is a class D amplifier, not a digital amp. There is a difference. I could not say what the cost are or should be on any of the stuff but it would be interesting to put them side by and side and see what you think.

[gianni]

The simple fact is that the rotel 1077 is still only an amp and still requires a quality volume control and quality d/a conversion. The analog signal from a d/a converter goes through another layer of processing compared to straight pcm signal processing, no?

No. Analog signal in, thru, out.

[boffo]

I've never read Mr. Boffo, though I've seen it in the papers (back when I read the papers).
I just chose it 'cause it's the fifteenth iteration of boff.
I should've made it easier and been boff0.

cheers!

[Blazar]

Well for the most part I think these manufacturers are partly catering to high end crowds who are used to paying a certain amount for a "quaility" amp. They are selling to a market that will accept the price point. If a $500 amp sounded the same as a $2500 amp, marketing along can convince your ears that the more expensive one sounds better.

It doesn't surprise me that they are trying to reap a better profit. It's just not clear to me that the value is being passed on to the consumer as much as it could be. Of course I know that boutique vendors aren't going to submit to cutthroat price slashing like panasonic who is trying to acquire mass penetration.

[gianni]

Well for the most part I think these manufacturers are partly catering to high end crowds who are used to paying a certain amount for a "quaility" amp. They are selling to a market that will accept the price point. If a $500 amp sounded the same as a $2500 amp, marketing along can convince your ears that the more expensive one sounds better.

It doesn't surprise me that they are trying to reap a better profit. It's just not clear to me that the value is being passed on to the consumer as much as it could be. Of course I know that boutique vendors aren't going to submit to cutthroat price slashing like panasonic who is trying to acquire mass penetration.

Yes, I would think there is some of this catering to the higher end crowd that does figure into the equation to some degree.

No, we won't see cut throat pricing from the high end. But hopefuly, if their costs eventually come down with these class D amps, we'll eventually get a little more bang for our amplification dollar. Of course, there will always be a few consumers with the mind set that top notch performance only comes with prohibitive pricing.

[shadow]

The point previously made about spreading price change over the volume of units sold is valid. I am sure that Panasonic sells more receivers in a month than Rotel moves in a year including ALL of its components! Rotel has to make its R&D money back on the amp and they will not sell the 1077 in any volume to compete with a $250 receiver. While I would like to see the 1077 cost less, I know Rotel needs to make a profit on this amp to keep selling them. In reviewing your previous posts, it appears that your opinion regarding sound quality seems to be based on everything except actually hearing the Panasonic. OTOH, our resident member with experience with both brands, Jerry, owns both. I do not think he is in any hurry to get rid of his 1077 and use his Panasonic instead. :roll:

[Aussie Geoff]

Hi,

Another factor is that the Rotel uses the (currently) more expensive and complex ICEPower technology from B&O rather than the TACT modules...

Even with the TACT modules different manufacturers (such as Bel Canto) charge remarkably different prices depending a a number of factors including the design care etc they have put into the whole solution... So just like saying "it's a transistor amp - so they all should be the same price" - it's not reasonable to expect all implementations of the same technology compoent to be the same price... However for a similar sound quality and technology it is good to compare prices etc..

Geoff

[DrJRapp]

If you look at the world of PCs you used to find boxes with radically different prices even though they all contained the same Intel CPU. The prices have narrowed over time, but there is still a difference between an EMachine and a Dell even though they contain similar innards.

[Sim reality]

Just to muddy the waters a bit and show that we are not comparing apples to apples here...

The panasonic is using a class T audio amplifier which has a THD of 0.08-0.1% and the Rotel is a Class G amplifier with a THD of < 0.03%. That is almost 2-3 times more distortion with the Panasonic then the Rotel and they are using completely different technology even though everyone seems to be lumping it together and calling it "digital" (which is a little like lumping a car and train together and calling it "vehicles").

[shadow]

The difference in THD is irrelevant since no study shows anyone can hear these differences in a blind test. If you can come up with any difference in these amps that is both measurable and audible it would be helpful. Otherwise, we will need to do it the old fashioned way and listen to the amps.

[DrJRapp]

The difference in THD is irrelevant since no study shows anyone can hear these differences in a blind test. If you can come up with any difference in these amps that is both measurable and audible it would be helpful. Otherwise, we will need to do it the old fashioned way and listen to the amps.

It may be irrelevent from an ultimate listening point of view, but it is a clear indication of the design and build quality of the device. All the internal components need to be much tighter tolerances to achieve what seems to be a very small difference in THD.

Oddly enough in blind a/b listening tests the amp with the higher distortion level often erns peoples vote since it's sound is less "dry" than the cleaner amp.

[Aussie Geoff]

Otherwise, we will need to do it the old fashioned way and listen to the amps.

Shadow - I 100% agree with the listening comment. With HT and Stereo it is the ONLY way in my experience - measurments only tell a small part of the story - equipment with bad measurments sounds bad, but equipment with good measurments can vary hugely in subjective sound..

So off you go then - organise and have a detailed compariative listen with quality source equipment and demanding speakers and come back and visit us to post your review when you you're done...

Geoff

[Sim reality]

Okay, I will be the first to admit that from a consumer level if you can't hear the difference then don't bother paying for it but as a techie and an engineer, when someone asks a quantative question why A costs 10 times more then B I like to give a quantative answer.

I have attached 2 files... "anatomy10" is an extrapulation of waveform from a Class D or T amp which is the type used in Panasonic. Notice the waveform is not "clean" because the wave is driven by DC "pulses".

The second file "anatomy12" is an extrapulation of a class G or H amp which is the type used by Rotel... Notice that waveform "cleaner" because the the signal is not driven digitally. (just the voltage of the power rails are)

Now I know this is just theoretical and it doesn't tell you exactly how it would sound , but even just the theory of operation is very funtimentally different which means they should fundimentally sound very different.

But yeah, someone should listen to both and qualify just how different they could be.

[DrJRapp]

I have listened to both. I have the 1077 in my family room/HT and the Panasonic XR25 in my master bedroom. Speakers are different sizes but both rooms are Klipsch Reference Series which have the same basic timbre. I have never driven the bedroom system to the levels that I have my main system.

First let me say that it was my positive experience with the Panny that prompted me to become an early adopter of the 1077. I originally had a HK digital receiver for two days and exchanged it for the much lower cost but better sounding Panasonic. Before the 1077 I had a 1075 and 1080 combination and can say that the Panasonic sounds very much like a 1075 with an extended but not bright top end.

However, the Panasonic is somewhat "dry" and laid back by comparison to the 1077's in-your face presence, very much like the differences I experienced between the 1075/1080 and the 1077. Both the Panny and 1077 are very clean and transparent on the high end. I can't truely evaluate the bottom end on the Panny since the smaller speakers just won't go there. Both the Rotel and the Panny provide excellent listening experiences for their respective price levels. Obviously nobody shold expect either to effectively perform the tasks of the other. There is no way I would take a $230 receiver and hook a $1000 DVD player and a $1500 CD player and ask it to power $6K worth of speakers, just as my big system would be innapropriate for falling asleepto the TV in the bedroom. Both units exceeded my expectations for their respective roles, that much they do have in common.

Build quality differences are so huge that they defy comparison so I won't waste any time.

I've been asked already to move the Panny downstairs to a/b against the 1077 and my response was basically..when I retire..which should be in about 15 years. That comparison would take far too much work to hook up, mostly because the diminutive connections on the Panny won't accept my 10 ga speaker cable.

[Dozer42]

Had mine for over a week now, just got the Sherwood P-965 Preamp (w/SNAP RoomEQ) in a couple days ago. Will post a review after this weekend most likely.

It's awesome. Flat out incredible. I've never heard such precise control of the woofers in my system.

Well, you can read my review on another forum. Just noticed one of my posts was edited without reason and without my consent, without even being notified.

I don't take censorship like that. CYA guys.

Aussie Geoff here - I edited the earlier post you are referring- deleting one line that refered to a part of the previous post which I had to delete innappropriate insulting comments from (and marked as such). Your post was fine - sorry for any confusion.

[sprout]

Well, you can read my review on another forum. Just noticed one of my posts was edited without reason and without my consent, without even being notified.

I don't take censorship like that. CYA guys.

Hi, cannot find your review on the other forum?

sprout

[bimmer528]

awww but i like the massive amps to show off to friends :P

[Indytown]

Hi,

Another factor is that the Rotel uses the (currently) more expensive and complex ICEPower technology from B&O rather than the TACT modules...

Even with the TACT modules different manufacturers (such as Bel Canto) charge remarkably different prices depending a a number of factors including the design care etc they have put into the whole solution... So just like saying "it's a transistor amp - so they all should be the same price" - it's not reasonable to expect all implementations of the same technology compoent to be the same price... However for a similar sound quality and technology it is good to compare prices etc..

Geoff

Aussie, looks like Bel Canto has introduced the new 500 watt mono amps. They changed their design where it is ICEPower based. Saw it on their web site last night.

I'm wondering what Rotel is waiting for? THere are a few 500 watters out there now. Industrial espionage?