Starting to get that itch again...

[mitch57]

I'm starting to get that itch again. You know... the upgrade itch...

I've been reading the manuals for processors and so far I have looked at the Anthem AVM 30, both Arcams, and the Halo C2. If I upgrade my current Denon 3805 I will also need a tuner.

I would like to keep my cost at or under $4000.00. Actually, I was hoping to keep it south of $4000.00 which I could do with the Anthem.

Some people say the Halo is a more refined unit then the Anthem. One thing I couldn't seem to find in the C2's owner's manual is whether or not the C2 has the capability to set crossover settings for each individual speaker.

The arcam didn't seem to have this capability either.

Does anyone know if the C2 has this capability?

[Brian]

Mitch,

I don't remember for sure but I don't think the C2 does either.

It really can screw up the acoustics in the room having different crossover settings for different speakers. IMO, you'll get the best sound by keeping the crossover fixed across all the speakers for HT use.

[Peter Nielsen]

One thing I couldn't seem to find in the C2's owner's manual is whether or not the C2 has the capability to set crossover settings for each individual speaker?

Unfortunately, you can't do that with the C1/C2. This is actually my #1 feature wish for new features for the C2. (BTW, I doubt anybody needs the ability to set the x-over for each individual speaker. What we need is the ability to set the x-over separately for three additional speaker groups: surround, rear and center).

Peter

[Chris D]

Hear, hear.

[Peter Nielsen]

It really can screw up the acoustics in the room having different crossover settings for different speakers.

Huh??? And how is that? That would also imply that using different speaker types will screw up acoustics, since the speakers will have different frequency response.

Here's an example: Your rears only go down to 150Hz. Your surrounds and fronts go down to 50Hz, and your center goes down to 100Hz.

With the C1/C2, you really need to set the crossover at 150Hz! This means that the whole range 150Hz-50Hz is not used in those expensive fronts and surrounds and the subwoofer is doing the work instead.

Then you set the crossover to 100Hz, and it problably sounds A LOT better. However, now you lose anything between 150-100Hz directed to the rears because the C1/C2 believes the speaker will reproduce the signal so signals in the range 100-150Hz indended for the rears are not sent to the subwoofer...

Then you set the crossover to 50Hz. WOW! This is really great, but the center does not sound right and the rears really seem to "swallow" a lot of base... Of course, now the rears are no longer reproducing in the range 50-150Hz and the center is losing everyting in the 50-100Hz... Not good... Still, the fronts and surrounds sound the best with this setting.

----

Another example. Here is the frequency response of my speakers:

Subwoofer: 15Hz
Fronts: 25Hz
Surrounds: 40Hz
Rears, Center: 80Hz

Right now I have the C2 crossover set to 80Hz. The Fronts are set to LARGE, the rest of the speakers are set to SMALL. Here are the problems:

Fronts: Signal loss, signals in the range 15Hz-25Hz are not reproduced
Surrounds: Value loss, speaker is not used in the range 40Hz-80Hz

In order to solve the signal loss problem, I could set the fronts to SMALL. However, this would be about as clever as putting a Fiat 600 engine to power a Ferrari :B

Peter

[slayer]

Not sure of your exact point Peter, at least on the second half of the post Just playin'.
I personally like to let each speaker play to its potential. If my fronts are rated to play down to 40hz, then I set the X-over for that point. If the rears only play down to 80hz, then I set those to 80hz. Not every Pre/pro or receiver will let you do that, but if it will then that's how I set it up. If not, I set it for the speakers that are not able to play any bass and set the rest as large. So in the above case, I would set it at 80hz. The other speakers will natually roll off by themselves.
Other than THX speakers and junk Bose cubes and such, most small bookshelf speakers will play below 80hz and usually dip into the 60's. You can play them full range without problems, they just won't give you deep bass. They will roll off on their own. Anything rated below 60hz or so is already a full range speaker anyway so you can play it as such. If you have the option to not send freq below it's rating to the speaker, then that is better as it will help protect the drivers from over-excustion. If a pre/pro has the option of setting different x-overs for the different speakers, then by all means do it. That way every speaker is playing in the range it was designed to.

Did the answer come out? Does the Halo let us set different lowpass filters for the fronts, center, surrounds, surround backs,.....???

[CP-Mike]

Did the answer come out? Does the Halo let us set different lowpass filters for the fronts, center, surrounds, surround backs,.....???

As Peter said above, no.

[Peter Nielsen]

I personally like to let each speaker play to its potential. If my fronts are rated to play down to 40hz, then I set the X-over for that point.

That's exactly what I'd LIKE to do, but the C2 won't let me.

The C1/C2 has only one single crossover setting, and this is how it works:
-Speakers set to SMALL will be crossed over using this setting. This means that frequencies below the crossover frequency intended for that speaker will go to the sub.
-Speakers set to LARGE are assumed to be "full range". They are assumed to handle the full signal range and nothing intended for those speakers is ever directed to the sub.

I'm hoping that the next major software upgrade will address this by letting us define crossover groups instead of a single crossover.

Peter

[slayer]

Exactly Peter. The best results from systems I've done have been set up that way.
I thought I had read that this was a feature they added in one of the firmware upgrades. I guess I read wrong. That's a bummer. I might have to add the ICBM to my system then. Problem with that though is it won't help any of the Aux outputs on the Halo. I can't figure out why Parasound wouldn't design it that way. This is a must needed feature in almost any system. Exclude the THX systems and the Theater in a box systems, what you have left are systems with dedicated fronts, centers, and surrounds. All with different frequency responses. Unless you use LCR speakers all the way around, they all need a different setting on the x-over. It kind of blows me away that this isn't a common feature in pre/pros and receivers.
I wonder if it is even possible with a software upgrade????

Sorry for the questions but I don't have my unit yet so I'm trying to get a headstart on my setup. Peter, if you select the EBASS setting. Does it send bass to the large and the sub? Say in stereo. My speakers are set to large. EBASS is on. Does the bass info go to both? And if so, is the info that goes to the sub determined by the
X-over setting?
I'm asking you Peter since it sounds like you like to set up your system the same way I do and I figure youv'e tried to configure your system every way possible.

I would hate to add a unit like the ICBM to my system. I don't think a $300 unit is worthy to be inline with a $4000 pre/pro and a $4500 amp.
Any other similar products out there? Other than symetrix or something like that.

[Chris D]

I too have thought about this one, and wondered whether an individual speaker crossover could be added by software, or whether it would need to be something more. From everything that I can see, it does appear that it's possible, given the current available settings in the C1/C2.

Like Peter said, you would really need crossover settings only for 4 speaker groups: mains, center, side surrounds, and rear surrounds.

I'd very much like to see this.

[mitch57]

Has anyone called Parasound to see if it's even possible to add this as a software upgrade? This will be one of the deciding factors on whether or not I upgrade to the C2 or another Pre/Pro such as Anthem, B&K, Premire, etc.

[Chris D]

Be my guest, Mitch! Use the "contact info" sticky thread that I put at the top of the club. Parasound responds very well to customer contact, even prospective customers.

[slayer]

I've installed receivers that had this option. It was in speaker groups like was mentioned. How can a $4000 processor not have this! Maybe we all need to email Parasound on this one.

[kurtholz]

Krell,

you can set each speaker to do anything, there are like 4 categories for each speaker, with i forget how many sub categories, slope,low pass, highpass, everything and anything, plus you have 4 sets of these, so you can set the system up to react differently for say CD, movies, dvd, or even music genre, basically it will do anything, and does it well'

little more than $4000 but very much worth it

of course, my opinion and .35 will get you a phone call, hahaha

[CP-Mike]

I've installed receivers that had this option. It was in speaker groups like was mentioned. How can a $4000 processor not have this!

Receivers always have the latest-and-"greatest" bells and whistles. One of the pros of having separates is that they leave out the non-essential whiz-bang effects that clutter up PCB's and lower sound quality. That is, they leave them out until it becomes clear that a certain feature really is a feature and not a whiz-bang "look ma!" effect. It's more of a wait-and-see approach. Or maybe they're just lazy and don't want to spend the time implementing stuff, but I'd rather think it's the former.

For example, I'm glad that the 7100 does not have HDMI capability. It's still too early to churning out HDMI switchers when the HDMI standard isn't even finished. Plus all the issues with early devices not being compatible with a switcher (due to the copy protection), or some switchers not passing on the copy protection information properly to the display, etc etc. It's just a mess, and I'm glad Parasound left it off the 7100.

I think that by now it's clear that having different crossovers for each group of channels is a legitimate feature, so companies need to start implementing it in pre/pros.

[Brian]

Peter,
As far as the acoustics, think of a swimming pool and you drop in a single bowling ball (which would be the bass waves coming from the subwoofer below it's crossover point) and watch the effects in the waves of the water. Now, drop in 4 bowling balls of different sizes (signifying different speakers set at different crossover points) and the wave interaction is going to be much worse. The lower the frequency, the longer the wavelength and the more directions it's coming from, the more problems and interaction you will have. It's typically best to have them coming from one location (the sub) rather than from multiple arrays around the room.
Every room is different and it's never the same across the board, but in general, it's best to crossover your mains with the rest of the speakers. This is for HT, not music.

Also, you shouldn't use your speakers "rated" range as the crossover point. It's a slope, not a cliff. If your speaker is rated at 40hz, then 80hz should be a better crossover point. Again, it's not an exact science and the room plays a huge roll in how these interactions occur. The speakers and electronics will as well.

IMO, matching the speakers and equipment and treating the room is more important than having a pre/pro that will let you set things to compensate.

[mitch57]

Brian,

So what happens in a system that has front, center and surround speakers with no sub?

[Chris D]

Brian, while I do agree with your last sentence, I'm not sure about the rest. Following that to a natural conclusion, then, shouldn't you have just one speaker in the room? Regardless of where you set the crossover, and how many different crossovers you have, in a multi-speaker setup you're always going to have frequencies right above the crossover (or even as you point out, at and slightly below, based on the crossover slope) coming from multiple sources. So what does it matter whether you have one crossover setting, or 4?

If the argument boils down to "low frequencies interact worse than higher freqs from multiple speakers, so set one crossover, and set it as high as possible", I think there's flaws there. The higher you set your crossover for all speakers, the more work you're assigning to your subwoofer. If, say, you follow that argument and set a universal crossover setting at 100 Hz, then your subwoofer will CONTANTLY be trying to simultaneously put out sound from 8 different sources in a 7.1 setup! (i.e. playing LFE, and then bass freqs from the left main, and bass freqs from the right main, etc) You're asking the subwoofer to sonically sound as crisp and clear as 8 different "speakers" below 100 Hz.

[mitch57]

Okay! Chris said go for it so I did. I called Parasound today and asked them about the possibilities of them upgrading the C1/C2 to acomodate seperate speaker crosssover settings through a software upgrade or a hardware upgrade. The answer was a definite no in both cases.

He said it wasn't possible via a software upgrade and a hardware upgrade would require replacing the entire motherboard which he said wouldn't happen. He indicated that Parasound has received many requests for this upgrade and that they asked the engineers but they said it wasn't feasable.

I also asked him if there were in plans in the works to release a new Halo processor. He said there were no immediate plans to release a new processor and that the current C1/C2 would be around for some time to come. Although he did say that they were always looking ahead to new technologies.

In my search for the best of all worlds in processor technology I have found that it just doesn't exist for any manufacturer at the under $4000.00 price point. As far as bang for the buck several come close but one or the other is missing something that I want. That's really making my decision even harder. I keep asking myself which features I am willing to give up and which ones I'm not.

Decisions.... Decisions.... Should I? Or shouldn't I? Damn this disease!

[slayer]

Well that's a bummer.

[nba]

I was there where you are Mich for quite a while. I was studying user manuals, specifications and forums almost harder than for my exams in school times. Add to that the limited access for audition that I have due to my location and my time in the decision corner was very frustrating. Eventually I admitted to myself that I do not live in a perfect world and recently bought a C-2. Having owned Denon and Rotel equipment before and knowing what to expect from the C-2 setup flexibility I was initially a bit negatively biased. Upon setting it up and listening to it, I quickly forgot about the settings limitations. It all comes down to how it sounds and if what you hear is good for you. Of course room acoustics affect a lot what reach ones ears and that is where settings flexibility importance kicks in.

Niko

[Peter Nielsen]

You're asking the subwoofer to sonically sound as crisp and clear as 8 different "speakers" below 100 Hz.

Chris nailed it!

I paid a lot of $$$ for my MG20.1s, so I want to be able to use them down to the last Hertz and only have the sub taking over when the MG20.1 can't cut it any more. The sub inevitably sounds "muddy" compared to the MG20.1.

Fortunately the DEQX will let me optimize this... And since Parasound obviously cannot add groups, I will just have to get a second DEQX for the surrounds, I guess... :B :T

Peter

[Peter Nielsen]

Peter, if you select the EBASS setting. Does it send bass to the large and the sub? Say in stereo.

Correct, that's exactly what it does. EBASS will direct bass from L+R stereo to both speakers AND the sub.

My speakers are set to large. EBASS is on. Does the bass info go to both?

Lows for the Left speaker go to the left speaker AND the sub. Lows for the right speaker go to the right speaker AND the sub.

And if so, is the info that goes to the sub determined by the
X-over setting?

Yes. Only signals below the X-over setting go to the sub. This is ALWAYS the case regardless of EBass or any other modes. (The exception is possibly signals specifically sent in the LFE channel of a multichannel signal. I would guess that signal is not x-overed, since it should never contain anything but LF anyway).

Of course, since your front speakers are set to LARGE, they are NOT affected by the crossover setting. Everything goes to the fronts.

Any other similar products out there? Other than symetrix or something like that.

The DEQX seems to be a wonderful product. I'm currently passively bi-amping my fronts, but as soon as finances allow, I'm going to add a DEQX for "true active biamping" and another Descent subwoofer (which effectively means that I will be "triamping" the fronts like this). When doing this, I will of course not be using the subwoofer output of the C2 at all.

Peter

[NAV]

Peter,
1. So the DEQX is the solution for all speakers x-over setttings? Do you need one DEQX for each speaker group?
2. I understand biamping, but what exactly is passive, active biamping and triamping"?

[Peter Nielsen]

Peter,
1. So the DEQX is the solution for all speakers x-over setttings? Do you need one DEQX for each speaker group?

Yes. The DEQX is 2-channels only, so for a full 7-channel system you need 4 of them.

Here are a few crossovers that are generally recommended for Audiophile use:

Marchand ($500+) http://www.marchandelec.com/
Bryston ($1800+) http://www.bryston.ca/crossel.html
DEQX ($3000+) http://www.deqx.com
Pass Labs ($6000+) http://www.passlabs.com/preamps/xvr1.htm

2. I understand biamping, but what exactly is passive, active biamping and triamping"?

In short, passive biamping means that you're still using the passive x-overs in the speakers. Active biamping means that you're using an electronic x-over and remove the passive x-overs in the speakers.

Triamping means that you're using three amplifiers. One for the woofer, one for the midrange and one for the tweeter.

Quadamping means that you're using four amps. You can do this if you have 4-way speakers, or if you have subwoofers plus 3-way speakers that let you access all three ranges separately.

Like biamping, triamping and quadamping can be done either passively or actively. However, most people that are going to triamp or quadamp are likely to do it actively using an electronic crossover.

Here's a good description of passive vs. active biamping: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...?postid=547067

Peter