Are the 804 going to sound just as good as 803 for ht

[kevin l.]

Assembling a system with 804 htm1 and 805 for a home theater room. This pactage suites my budget better. I listen very little to music but I very much like the way 803 sounded in ht room at store. I could a/b them at store with music and I could clearly justify the cost difference. However thats not what I will mostly be doing at home. undefined

[DrBoom]

If you're using a sub, that means the 804 is more than adequate because it won't have to handle a ton of bass.
If you won't be using a sub for some reason, then the 803 would make a lot more sense with its larger cabinet, higher power handling and larger woofers.
Regarding the difference in sound, the 803 sounds fuller and a bit more relaxed, but I highly doubt you can hear that much difference with a movie.
The thing is, movies are way to hectic, and there's too much going on at the same time to be able to pick out subtle differences that you would hear with normal stereo listening.
Add to that, that movies aren't made of sound alone, meaning that your brain has to process a lot of images as well making it less aware of subtle sound differences between 2 speakers.
It's pretty easy picking out 2 different speakers with music, but it's a whole other story for movies.
And I think that the money you save by staying with the 804 (around $1600), you'll be able to buy a really nice sub.

[kevin l.]

Thanks for reply. I have another question. What can I use for rear? Should I use 805pr. or 2prs of something less expensive to equal cost. Keep in mind its for a home theater room. It is large in size 21wx25x12. Oh I do already have svs pb2+ sub. so I would be using 80hz roller off in sunfire preamp. So to clairify question is it better for me to have more speakers 7.1 or higher quality 5.1 setup in large room?

[jlee]

I would go with SCM1 in the rear, not the 805... SCM1 will match better with the N804. My personal philosophy is higher quality 5.1 before going 7.1. For small to midsize rooms, I think 5.1 is usually better than 7.1 The more speakers you have, the more complicated the system and the harder it is to setup optimally, with all the reflections that you need to control, etc. For bigger rooms, a 6.1 or 7.1 may make more sense. 21x25 is actually fairly big... but I would start with 5.1, get it optimized, and then if you feel the need, go to 6.1 or 7.1 later.

[gostan]

Kevin:

I was in a similar situation at the beginning of August. I enjoyed the fuller sound and the more exact midrange and middle bass of the 803's over the very good sounding 804's. I made the decision to spend the extra $$ for the 803's as music is more important to me than HT (and I did not want to have buyer's remorse and have to upgrade again in a few months as it would not have gone over well with my significant other). I listen to 70% music and 30% HT. If I were 70 HT/30 music, I would have kept the extra $$ in the bank and purchased the 804's. I purchased the HTM1 at the same time, along with the ASW850. A sub is so essential for any HT applications. My cdm-nt1's ares still doing the job for the rears, but I am going to upgrade the rears to either 804's, 805's or scm1's before the end of the year. I am still not sure about the SCM1's with multichannel audio. Indecision and $$ are holding me back. Good luck - you will be very happy whichever way you decide to go.

I see that you are located in Brockton, MA. I am west of Boston. Who is your audio-video dealer??

Stan

[kevin l.]

Stan, thanks for info. There isn't a wealth of information on this kind of equipment. I use Spearit Sound in Boston. I've had great experience in my dealing with them. I posted a question regarding preamp and amp which I have Sunfire TGIII and sig amp 405watt x5. I haven't recieved any response but what do you use to drive B&Ws and are you content if there is such a thing.

[sikoniko]

I would like to offer a different opinion. While I will have to start by saying that I haven't heard the 803's in person, I have heard that the general opinion is that they are more efficient speaker though.

The reason why this would be important is if you can't always watch movies at high levels, at least you will still get the full dynamics of the speaker, whereas w/ the 804's, I notice that unless you turn them up a bit, that you will miss out in the mids.

That would be my biggest beef w/ the 804's. They arent as full and dynamic at low volumes.

[gostan]

Sikoniko is correct that the 803's are more efficient than the 804's. I listened to the Sunfire combo briefly, but I cannot really comment on them. Natural Sound in Framingham recommended them to me and had a good deal on the Sunfire combo, but I was not sure enough about Sunfire to make that purchase. I would guess that not enough listeners on this site have combined Sunfire with B&W's.

The issue with amplification is not so much how much wattage, but your class of amplifier. I am running a slightly older (although brand new) Aragon 8008 to power my fronts and a rotel-1075 for my center and rears. I will eventually be replacing the Rotel for the center channel amplification, but the Aragon powers the 803's fabulously.

Can you listen to the 803/804's at Spearit Sound with the Sunfire combo??

[JBall]

I have the 803's on order and i ordered a rotel 1080 to bi amp them for best quality sound for music. Next month i am ordering the asw800 and the HTM1, but the dealer really recommended the DS7 Tripole speaker instead of the SCM1 as i must locate them on the rear wall not the side wall due to WAF. I am just taking hes recommendation he doesnt have this combo there to listen to....

[Rags]

I would like to offer a different opinion. While I will have to start by saying that I haven't heard the 803's in person, I have heard that the general opinion is that they are more efficient speaker though.

The reason why this would be important is if you can't always watch movies at high levels, at least you will still get the full dynamics of the speaker, whereas w/ the 804's, I notice that unless you turn them up a bit, that you will miss out in the mids.

That would be my biggest beef w/ the 804's. They arent as full and dynamic at low volumes.

sikoniko - Could your issue with them be a result of partnering equipment (especially your power amp and processor) ?

I use a Halo C2 and A51 with my 804's and they sound quite full bodied and detailed even a low volumes (-25db for example).

[Rags]

I have the 803's on order and i ordered a rotel 1080 to bi amp them for best quality sound for music. Next month i am ordering the asw800 and the HTM1, but the dealer really recommended the DS7 Tripole speaker instead of the SCM1 as i must locate them on the rear wall not the side wall due to WAF. I am just taking hes recommendation he doesnt have this combo there to listen to....

JBall - seriously consider ordering an ASW850 - it offers step up performance from the ASW800 thats worth the extra $$ in my opinion.

[sikoniko]

sikoniko - Could your issue with them be a result of partnering equipment (especially your power amp and processor) ?

I use a Halo C2 and A51 with my 804's and they sound quite full bodied and detailed even a low volumes (-25db for example).

Rags,

I think the bigger issue is with my room size. I will be getting a bigger place in march which will help out substantially.

I know my amp isn't the problem, but I can't say that about my receiver. Unfortunately, this one is going to have to last me another couple of years. My goal on the receiver is to get 5 years. I bought it last year, so I have four more to go. I bought the receiver before I upgraded into the 800 series of speakers. Now that I have been upgrading my speakers, I am going to finish. I believe that speakers will have a longer life, and since I do not have my speakers to where I want them, I will finish what I started, so all of my speakers are in the same series. Whether the 803's are required is still probably quite debatable and a struggle I am trying to decide on. For example, the upgrading my rears to SCM1's will put all of my speakers in the same series. That would satisfy my need. Upgrading my 804's to 803's are a want. So the dilemma is really how bad do I want it, because it will definately sacrifice other things in my life.

Anyways, back to the biggest issue in my home theater, room size. My room is like 12x12 (told you it was small). I probably should have stuck w/ the 805's and called it a day, but I wasn't fully satisfied with them so that debate is non-negotiable.

Before I upgraded my sub, (previously had asw-6 circa 600 series 1 sub) I used to listen to my 804's anywhere between 45-60 (60 being calibrated at 70 heheheh or -15db) therefor I listened at -30 to -15, depending on the movie. DTS and DTSES tracks were always the latter. At that volume, the 804's would fully immerse me, which is my goal.

Now that I have the asw850 sub, really, the highest I can go is 50 (-25db) which is pushing it, and realistically shouldn't go above 45 (-30db) I definately notice somewhere around 47 a substantial drop-off in fullness in the speaker.

Before you go telling me to turn the sub down, it is turned down. The receiver is set at 0 and the volume at the back of the sub is barely on. w/ the 850, it is such an efficient sub that on is on and room shaking when the movie plays room shaking lowness.

So, 45 (-30db) is the cap of what I should be listening to until march when I get the new place (room size will be 15x16). of course I don't always listen at those volumes, neighbors haven't complained yet. heheh.

Now, with all that being said, will getting 803's fix the issues... probably not for my current situation, since it is my belief that the room size is the problem.

The trouble I have is that I have 2 b&w dealers locally. 1 (which is the one that has given me trade-in on my 7 year old speakers) has every 600 series speaker, a pair of 705's, a pair of 805's, a pair of 802's and a pair of signature 800's. The other dealer has 805's, 804's and 802's and doesnt offer a home demo unless you front the cash.

So unfortunately, the best I can do is this board. I do believe, from what I have read, that the 803's will be the better longterm solution, which is what I want. I plan on keeping these speakers until they quit working. My thought, when it comes to HT is that I will upgrade the pre/pro every five years, as well as DVD or whatever the next generation is, but my amp (cinnenova grande 5), speaker wires, and speakers will remain constant. I have quality. I don't know how long it takes for speakers to degrade, but as long as I take care of them, I won't have to worry about it. After march, I will be saving for a wedding, a house, furnishing the house, probably having kids, so HT will take a back seat.

My favorite quote is from John Lennon: "Life is what happens while your busy making other plans..." from beautiful boy. At this point in my life, I need to get on w/ enjoying my life instead of spending every penny I have on the HT and perpetually upgrading has to stop for me. I have my goal (803's, htm1, scm1 for speakers).. wish me luck guys in holding to that commitment. I don't mean that as in I will be leaving the boards though. hope that didnt come across.

[Rags]

Sikoniko,

You have probably heard this before but a square room is not very good for sub bass. I am willing to bet that you have a significant dip in your frequency response between 18-70Hz and maybe one or two peaks - this is a characteristic of rooms with a square shape. The dip is losing you big chunk of bass and turning up the sub is simply making it sound OTT as you hit one of those peaks.

My set up is very simialr to yours, with a HTM1, 804's and the B&W ASW850 but my room is rectangular in shape (18 X 13). I found that when I set my sub to a realistic level for low volume use it would sound great but on certain heavy bass clips at anything above -10db all hell would break lose and the bass would become overpowering or bloated. This is somewhat opposite to the situation you are experiencing. Anyway I plotted my frequncy response and found that I had a big 15-20db peak between 25-40Hz (from recollection). I then bought a BFD (about £90 so not expensive) and tamed the problem. I now experience bass which is exceptional - fast, tight, low, no overhang etc. I can turn the sub volume up to mad levels without a hint of boom.

I had a friend round yesterday and we tried scene after scene and even he thought the sub and 804's together sounded brilliant (like me hes a bit of a bass nut and hes heard quite a few good subs inc the Velo DD18 and SVS etc). There is no change in response as I shift from say 60-90Hz (my crossover is set to 70Hz). Try the sonic gun scene from Minority Report - if it doesnt blow your head off there is something wrong :E ).

You may have already done this but download a few frequencies and check your response. Try this site - http://www.snapbug.ws/bfd.htm.

I may well be wrong but I think its your room that is the problem and not your speakers/sub. Your new room at 15X16 may not make the problem go away and I dont think the 803's will either.

[sikoniko]

Rags,

looks like that might solve my issue! When i try to calibrate the sub, it is usually all over the place. Is that what this fixes? There will definately be a learning curve... Are there any other pieces I will need other than just the BFD? Also, because I can't set distance w/ my 1055, how will I compensate that setting? any ideas? should I take it to the Rotel section?

[JBall]

Rags,

dealer is strongly advising me to NOT buy the 850 as he said it would be too much, he came out to my house and siad it would result in "standing waves" and he "hates standing waves". I have to trust him since he is trying to sell me less

[Rags]

Rags,

looks like that might solve my issue! When i try to calibrate the sub, it is usually all over the place. Is that what this fixes? There will definately be a learning curve... Are there any other pieces I will need other than just the BFD? Also, because I can't set distance w/ my 1055, how will I compensate that setting? any ideas? should I take it to the Rotel section?

Sikoniko,

Thats exactly what it fixes. Rooms boundaries can enhance or negatively impact particular sub frequencies and you use the BFD to compensate for each frequency thats out of line (and believe me you will have some). Before you forkout for a BFD get yourself a analogue Radioshack SPL meter and download the frequencies from the link I have given above - cut them onto a CD. It gives all the instructions on the site and even a preprepared excel worksheet with which you can plot a graph. Note that your Radioshack SPL meter is out when it measures certain frequencies and the appropriate adjustments are already built into the worksheet. Plot the graph and see what it looks like and then decide on whether you need a BFD or not - its almost certain though imho that you will have a problem given your square room and the problems you are experiencing. To work the BFD you need the Radioshack SPL meter anyway plus two sub phono cables (terminated on the BFD side with phono for which you can buy a cheap 1/4 inch jack adaptor or an XLR). One cable goes from your processor to the BFD and the other from the BFD to your sub.

Remember you are looking to amend significant peaks and troughs only. Using a BFD takes a bit of getting used two and set up can take anything from 2-3 hours. However once your into it its really not that difficult.

My intitial response wasnt too bad - my graphs are attached below with the purple line being the post BFD one. You dont have to achieve a straight line - mine is sloping very slightly downwards as you can see - a lot of people prefer this for HC - a straight line can often sound a bit flat. Please note that you should look look to apply negative adjustments (ie cut peaks) rather than positive adjustments as they can sap subwoofer power (the ASW850 with its 1000rms amp will however handle postive adj's very well). If you have a huge dip dont simply go and boost that frequency(s) by +15db or whatever - cut your other frequencies to bring them lower and apply a smaller boost to the dip frequency. You can cut by as much as you want. Put simply the less positives you apply the better.

Also try different sub positions in your room if possible and keep the position with smoothest reponse curve - BFD at this position. If you do have a dip as I suspect look for placing your sub where the dip isnt as pronounced. Sub positioning can make a huge difference as well. Square rooms tbh are pretty crap accoustically. Worst ones are cube rooms !

Re your other queries - your 1055 surely must be able to set delay times which is the same thing. Your sub frequency response hasnt got much if anything at all to do with your Rotel.

[Rags]

Rags,

dealer is strongly advising me to NOT buy the 850 as he said it would be too much, he came out to my house and siad it would result in "standing waves" and he "hates standing waves". I have to trust him since he is trying to sell me less

Jball - its difficult for me to comment on this as I dont know your room dimensions, preference etc. Smaller subs can sound very good in smallish rooms but for really low frequency reproduction there is no real substiture for size (port tuning etc aside as the B&W subs are not ported anyway).

I have owned several B&W subs inc the ASW750 and 850 but not the 800. The 750 is a very good performer and it has the same amp and I think the same driver as used in the 800 - the only thing that is different is the cabinet. In fact the quoted frequency response of the two is identical. I know people who have demod both the 750 and the 800 and didnt think there was much in it. So why not save some more $'s and get a 750 ? There is however a massive difference between my 850 and the two 750's I used to own.

[Rags]

Sikoniko - below is a real life plot of a sub in a square room. There are a lot of variables out there in acoustic land and your plot may be very different from this but at least this will give you an idea of how variable low frequency response can be. Your looking at 20db swings here.

The second graph is of a two sub setup in the same square room - now thats a shocker and is sucking the life out of the bass reproduction !

[JBall]

Rags,
seems like the cabinet is the only difference. Problem is i ordered red charry for the fronts and i kinda like it to match. I could go all black. I just went to check the website to see the difference in price for the 850 and the site is down. This is probably a january purchase for me so i have a few months to agonize about the right choice...grrrrr

[BlazeMaster]

well it depends on what the rest of your room looks like. Why not post of a pic of your room and let the members help you out. I like my speakers to be black, although the other finishes of the B&W are really attractive. The cherry brightens up the room a little bit, red is really elegant and black I think just has a more aggressive look. The black will probably be easier to sell off also.

[jlee]

My take on the black is that most of the "common" brands of speakers are black and if you're going to pay high end prices, you might as well get a high end red cherry or cherry finish... not that the black B&W finish isn't high end, but it looks like the "crowd" I don't think you'll have a problem selling ANY of the 3 colors :wink:

[JBall]

I agree on the finish. The black would have worked fine, but i was spending alot of money on the 803's and wanted a more exclusive look. Also, with the grill, the entire front IS black, so from the front it will match my tv and other black items. I also don't intend to seel soon, last speakers i bought in 1979.

[Rags]

JBall - im glad you have seen the light . Puts you in another dilemma though doesnt it ? Sorry.

Im not much of a black finish fan and if I were you Id either order the speakers and ASW750 in the light cherry colour (assuming you can change your speaker order) or just stick your original plans and get the ASW800 in red cherry - its a lot of extra money to pay for a cabinet but the bracing may be better and the Nautilus series does have a nice furniture grade finish.

In terms of list prices - ASW750 $1,600 / ASW800 $2,200 / ASW850 $3,000.

At the end of the day however if you dont mind black then thats fine as well :T