Why No 803 Talk?

**Mark_C.** · 30 July 2004, 00:25 Friday

Well, I believe it comes down to diminishing returns. There are many people who feel the 803 is just an 804 with a little more bass and a $1,500 US price difference. The opinion expressed many times on various a/v sites is that if you're going to move up from the 804, you might as well look to the 802. The 803s certainly are terrific speakers, but they do need high-powered amps to make them sing.
I have 804s in my two-channel system coupled with a Rel Storm III sub. I can get away with powering the 804s with a 100 wpc Classe integrated amp. I couldn't do that with 803s. I'll take my 804s with the Rel over 803s alone any day.

**Aussie Geoff** · 30 July 2004, 08:18 Friday

Gostan,

I'm with you on the B&W Nautilus 803s. I know some say they are the orphans etc of the Nautilus range - but for me they are the "bargain" sweet spot. They have the same tweeter and mid-range as the 802, just with the mid range in a internally isolated enclosure rather than the external one of the 802. The 7 inch bass drivers are smaller than the 8 inch ones in the 802 and the vented box is much smaller. However they sound very very good for the price and IMO are a significant step from the 803s, just as you describe. My B&W dealer said much of the cost difference is in the cabinet of the 802... And bottom line - I can't afford the 802s and I could (just) afford the 803s (if I sell a kidney

)

I'm in the throws of comparing the 803s with the Focal Electra 936 - but I can't get them in the same room etc... At the moment I'm leaning a little towards the 803s on the basis that they are sweeter sounding (if a little less transparent) than the Focals (which I suspect are perfect for Stereo but too revealing for general home theatre including Satellite TV etc). But I need to find the time to do lots more listening - it's a big decision...

Geoff

**gostan** · 30 July 2004, 08:23 Friday

$1500.00 price difference between the 804's and the 803's is certainly significant. I generally (except for SACD listening) do not use a sub for music listening. I only use my sub for HT. That is the real reason why I am still interested in the 803's as the bass response at first listen does appear to be improved over the 804's. I intend to go back today and give them both another listen with some different music choices.

By the way, it appeared to me that the 804's were more power hungry than the 803's, but, even if I am incorrect, that is not an issue as my Aragon 8008 will handle either effortlessly.

**sikoniko** · 30 July 2004, 10:46 Friday

We welcome all reviews. As you get up into the higher end stuff, there will naturally be fewer people that have these items.

I have 804's now and have until next january to upgrade to the 803's by trading up and paying the difference. It is something I am really considering. My room is kind of small, so it would really be more for a long term solution than the here and now.

The other thing that I am thinking is that I would like to have 804's as rears one day. When I did my upgrading, I pretty much spent more than I had anticipated and was not able to do a complete upgrade on my speakers.

btw, dont bother w/ the htm2.. you need the htm1 for center on anything other than 805's.

**gostan** · 30 July 2004, 11:29 Friday

Geoff:

Is the midrange in the 803 constructed differently than the midrange in the 804? I know that the bass drivers in the 803's are slightly larger than those of the 804, but I think that the larger cabinets of the 803's make the 803 sound more dynamic, yet smoother than the 804's. I know that it may not seem like much, but the 803's are almost two inches taller, 2 inches wider and 3.5 inches deeper (the latter being the most important size difference and, thus, sound difference between the two cabinets), which probably helps account for the 803's sounding different to my ears.

I have not had the opportunity to audition any of the Focal line as none of my local dealers carry them. What are you listening to now?

Stan

**luszer** · 30 July 2004, 16:12 Friday

Gostan

When speaking with Natural Sound, you were working with someone other that Pete?

I have purchased the majority of my B&W and Rotel gear from Pete.

Based on my experience with him, he won't do you wrong.

Also, Ocean State Audio in Cranston, RI sells JM Labs, ask for Bruce (owner) or Walt. They will be biased and tell you that B&W is crap, but we all know the truth. They will let you have a listen no problem, I purchased an Arcam CD player and we made plenty of conparisions to other units.

Happy Listening

Ron

**gostan** · 30 July 2004, 18:03 Friday

Ron:

Over the years I have dealt mostly with Larry, Natural Sound's GM, and recently with Brian, who is no longer at Natural Sound. Yesterday, when I first listened, Eric was the only salesperson available. Today, I returned and spent considerable more time listening to the 803's and 804's and discussing the merits of each with Larry, who has never steered me wrong in 15+/- years. I placed an order for the 803's and the HTM1. The 803's midrange and bass are definitely superior to the 804's. Whether it be the larger bass units, larger cabinet, the cross-overs, or a combination of all, the 803's do sound better to my older ears.

I also placed an order for an ASW800 to replace my awful ASW 2000 subwoofer. My only wavering is on the B&W sub. I was also considering the Velodyne DD12, but it is far more expensive, and, again, relying upon Larry's advice, since he knows that music is more important to me than HT, I am going for the more musical B&W sub. Hopefully, the B&W sub will intertwine better with my other B&W speakers. I am giving up the equalization and slightly lower bass response of the Velodyne based on his advice. I hope that this is the right choice. Does anybody have a B&W ASW 800 in their system??

All should be delivered late next week. I have some time to reorganize, move and re-adjust some of my other equipment as my Sony SAT60 DT-Tivo unit must be relocated from the shelf below my Sony LCD-RP in order to allow the larger HTM1 to fit below the monitor. I may also flip my electronics rack to the other side of the monitor to allow more room for the larger speakers. I don't know how I am going to wait a week. But good things come to those who are patient.

Stan

**Aussie Geoff** · 30 July 2004, 21:23 Friday

Gostan,

Is the midrange in the 803 constructed differently than the midrange in the 804?

My dealer says so (but salesmen will say....). The B&W Web site says this about the 803:

This elegantly slim 3-way floorstanding system uses the same FST midrange driver with its tensioned isolation mount as the larger Nautilus 801 and 802, but housed in a separate section of the main Matrix-braced cabinet.

It doesn't say the same about the 804... But then the FST size is the same - so maybe it is just the separate midrange enclosure and better crossover...

Bottom line is I agree with you that it sounds significantly clearer / sweeter in the midrange (as well as the better bass of course

Oh, of course CONGRATULATIONS on your purchase... ;b>
I know it will make sweet music for you.

Geoff

**Rags** · 31 July 2004, 05:24 Saturday

I havent heard an ASW800 but I have owned the ASW750 and now the ASW850. Both of them are very good subwoofers. I would expect the ASW800 to be similar in nature to the 750 but maybe sound a tad better due to having a better constructed cabinet. Out of interest why didnt you go for an ASW850 - it really is a significant step up in my opinion with the 15" driver giving a lot of added bass weight. One of the best subwoofer round up reviews I have ever read was a few months back in the AVTech section of HIFI News - it really rated the ASW850 - there are snippets of this review on the B&W website. I normally tend to take reveiws with a pinch of salt but the whole review with graphs and all was really quite outstanding.

I own Nautilus 804's and a HTM1 as well - I went back and forth between the 803's and the 804's before deciding - went with the smaller model as for movie sound (which is my primary concern) with the sub on, I didnt notice any improvement with the 803's. With stereo and no sub the 803's did sound fuller than the 804's which have a slightly leaner bass response - depending on your room and your musical tastes that may not be an unwanted characteristic. Dont get me wrong I liked the 803's but I just didnt feel that they were worth the extra - both the 803's and the 804's are not a patch on the 802's frankly but the problem is that the 803's tend to sound more like the 804's than the 802's - a bit in no mans land.

**gostan** · 31 July 2004, 08:26 Saturday

Rags:

Great system you have - I am envious as mine is in the process of being finalized, purchased, shipped and set up. You know how long that takes. I am sure that I could have been very happy with 804's and I am also sure that I will love the 803's.

I ordered the asw800 and not the asw850 because my listening room is not extremely large and the 800 with a 12 incher should do the trick and to save a few bucks. I am really waffling on my sub choice. Should I change to a Velodyne DD-12 (more $$), or upgrade to the 850 as you suggest, or try a REL III as somebody else has offered.

In your opinon, having gone from a 750 (12 incher) to a 850 (15 incher) - what is the main difference - deeper bass? - does the larger woofer work more seemlessly with your 804's? What else do I gain with the 850 except for future proofing a sub for a larger listening room in the near future?

I appreciate your thoughts.

Stan

**Rags** · 31 July 2004, 08:46 Saturday

The ASW850 seems to go significantly lower with a lot more bass weight - nearly as agile but has more headroom for those truly low bass moments. Its a worthwhile upgrade in my opinion. For $700 or so more I would seriously think about changing it even though you have a smallish room. It produces seriously tight low bass with tremedous slam and not a trace of boom.

The same magazine also reviewed the REL Stadium III in the same test but the B&W came out much better. The problem is its got a 10" driver and although its ported it just doesnt go low enough. Significantly higher distortion levels than the ASW850 as well.

Whilst I havent heard a DD12, I have demod a DD18 - I preferred the bass of the ASW850. The DD series is a good solution if you have "room problems" given the EQ feature but apart from that I felt it was a bit overpriced.

**gostan** · 31 July 2004, 12:04 Saturday

Based on the recs of Geoff and Rags, I am going to change my subwooofer order from the 800 to the 850. I may as well do my final upgrades at one time. And there is a good chance that in a year or so I will be moving my stereo-ht to a large listening room.

Interestingly enough, I also visited an other hi fi dealer who I have dealt with over the years. He does not sell B&W and does sell Velodyne. His recommendation to me was to stay with the B&W subwooofer, and to not consider the Velodyne DD. His opinon was that the b&w subs are greatly improved and that the same speakers across the front, including the sub, will sound better.

**Aussie Geoff** · 31 July 2004, 21:51 Saturday

Gostan,

Thanks for trusting us (plus the other posters in the other forum

)

Let us know how you go... You will have a magnificent set-up...

I'm excited for you....

I bet you will smile very time for music with thr 803s and HT with that sub going waaaaaay down deeeep and low....

Geoff

**Rags** · 01 August 2004, 06:08 Sunday

Originally posted by gostan

Based on the recs of Geoff and Rags, I am going to change my subwooofer order from the 800 to the 850. I may as well do my final upgrades at one time. And there is a good chance that in a year or so I will be moving my stereo-ht to a large listening room.

Interestingly enough, I also visited an other hi fi dealer who I have dealt with over the years. He does not sell B&W and does sell Velodyne. His recommendation to me was to stay with the B&W subwooofer, and to not consider the Velodyne DD. His opinon was that the b&w subs are greatly improved and that the same speakers across the front, including the sub, will sound better.

I feel you have made the right choice. Honest dealer !!!

When you get your sub play around with positioning but if your still not happy try a BFD type device which are relatively inexpensive. I havent tried one as the subs tend to work well in my room but people I know who have had room problems swear by it. Effectively its a manual EQ system and can do wonders with bass peaks and troughs.

**JOY DIVISION** · 02 August 2004, 13:02 Monday

I'm using a Revel Performa B-15 and it blends pretty great with my 803's. It took me awhile to decide either I get the 850 or the Revel. And the Revel just shined. I don't know if it was a mistake but it makes beautifull music with the 803's.Yes 803's are much better all around than the 804's, try laying down the floor and put some Madonna CD in and your in for a treat not only standing in front of you, but you could hear her breath and moan, oh my!! that would be rewarding isn't it?

**gostan** · 02 August 2004, 21:07 Monday

I understand that your Revel sub is a wonderful sub. I would love to hear your two channel system. I would bet that it sounds superb.

**JOY DIVISION** · 03 August 2004, 02:33 Tuesday

I don't see alot of folks that uses Conrad-Johnson pre/amp, just wondering? People would rather go Krell, or Mark Levinson. It's a scary investment, but after a few days and a little PEP talk from C/J it was quite reassuring and evident that you have an excellent product and would be more usefull in the years to come. It's not as powerfull as Krells, but I've listen to it beyond normal listening conditions and I never saw any faults, it was just simply out there performing. Maybe I might need to upgrade the cables, then again I wouldn't know How it would turn out, but for now it's just great music.I have nothing against N804, it's just another great product from a great company. I know this dealer in LA(Soundfactor) and one of the guys that work there told me they sold more 804's than 803's, but if you did a blind test on the same gear and cables the 803's were a notch better.

**gostan** · 03 August 2004, 06:09 Tuesday

Many more 804's are sold than 803's due to cost issues. $1500.00 is a large increase in price to most of us. But, I did do a blind listening test on my second visit, and the 803's were the speaker I picked out as the superior speaker.

I think that there are many fine amplifiers out there for audiophiles to choose from. In fact, I think that very good amplifiers can be picked up very reasonably priced, if one can be patient. I started with a Rotel RMB-1075 five channel amp, and recently added an Aragon 8008ST for my fronts. The Aragon was of the older design (Aragon has been purchased by Klipsch) and was being closed out by my dealer. Fabulous amp and great price.

I assume that we can all benefit by cable upgrades, but, then again, I would love to have the opportunity to a-b my existing cables with new cables, to listen to sound differences, before purchasing.

**will1066** · 03 August 2004, 10:20 Tuesday

Congrats, Stan! I still have not gotten around to demo the 804. I would love to consider the 803 for myself, but my living room is too small/crowded. The 803 would be too dominant, and I wouldn't take advantage of its capabilities because of lack of free-space siting.

**sikoniko** · 06 August 2004, 23:21 Friday

gostan,

When you did your demo, did you demo the 803's vs. the 804's purely on music?

If not, did you feel that for movies there was still a significant difference between the 2?

**gostan** · 07 August 2004, 06:08 Saturday

Sikoniko

My in store demos were based solely on music and not ht, as music was my main concern. So, I cannot comment on whether there is a difference between the 803 or 804 with HT verus music. However, last evening, I watched my first movie on the new system. The only flick in the house that my wife and I had not seen was Harry Potter And The Sorcerer's Stone. We were both blown away by the sound integration of the 803's with the HTM1 and the 850 Sub. The HTM1 Center and the 850 sub make such a huge difference in HT, and I have to believe based upon my ears (no actual a-b comparison) that the overall dynamic integration wow factor of the 803's with them is so seamless that the HT sound with the 803's is better than it would be with the 804's. I did tilt/raise the center channel and the sound now hits my main seating area more accurately. I may now need to experiment with the 850 sub in-line with my main 803's for stereo. Although, I may need to upgrade to one of those Cat SilverDigital interconnects. I do not know if this long-winded answer does the trick, but these is my true response to your inquiry.

Stan

**JBall** · 09 October 2004, 19:01 Saturday

I have the 803's on order, my dealer came out to look at my room and is strongly recommending that i opnly go with the 800 as he said the 850 is too big, would overpower and leave "standing waves" and he hates standing waves. I have to think he isn't BSing me cause he is trying to sell me less not more.....I am also ordering the HTM1 and i think i will have a good system, at least i sure hope so

**Ray** · 17 October 2004, 11:06 Sunday

Hi,
Would a Parasound A51 be enough to drive 5 x N803?
The A51 delivers 250wpc and thats the max power for a N803 according the specs. Will I get much more out of the N803 when I go for more power?

Thanks, Ray

**sikoniko** · 17 October 2004, 12:48 Sunday

mmm. imagining 5 803's...

sorry. got side-tracked...

I'd imagine it would sound good. goes back to that whole, you will have to try it and find out.

**BlazeMaster** · 17 October 2004, 13:22 Sunday

oh my...indeed, 5 803s? Can't imagine how big of a room you got. Envious.

**Ray** · 18 October 2004, 15:26 Monday

Hi,
You don't need a large room to enjoy the N803's. You just need some free space within that room. My living room is 4m x 8m. One of the small sites is free for the fronts and the centre and enough free space around them. The other two will be each across one of the larger sites. The only problem will be that they will not have that much free space between them and the wall.

**PeterL** · 19 October 2004, 02:30 Tuesday

5 x 803's

Not quite 5 x 803's but have 1 x HTM1 and 4 x 803's and an ASW 850. Sounds fantastic and curbed the upgraditis for a while. Kind of easier to buy here as there are no taxes!

Peter

**Ray** · 19 October 2004, 14:47 Tuesday

Hi Peter,

Nice to hear!

Did you got problems positioning the rear speakers? How far are they away from the ideal listening position? And what pre/pro amps are you using?

Just curious!

Ray

**PeterL** · 21 October 2004, 05:26 Thursday

Hi Ray,

No problems with positioning at this stage. The rear 803's however, are probably not in the ideal position for multi channel music. They are to the sides and just behind the listening position at 2.3m. Ideal would, in my case, be some 3.2m distance, and further behind the listening position.

I use a Rotel RSP-1066 processor and amplification is 1 x Krell KAV-2250 and 1 x KAV-3250. No 6.1 or 7.1 at this stage however I will consider that once I return to my own home and home country.

Cheers,
Peter

Why No 803 Talk?

Why No 803 Talk?

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