How do you explain...

[BWLover]

Hello. Im just curious as to how everyone explains a few things to people not knowing a thing of the "hi end" world. Particularly 2 channel.

1. How do you explain the difference between your hi end 2 channel rig, and a regular best buy stereo?

2. How do you explain the difference between "consumer grade" electronics and our "hi end" gear/world?

3. How do you explain what an audiophile is?

Thanks guys

[ShadowZA]

1. "Come in, sit down and have a listen", is what I've said quite a few times, especially to folk who have very little knowledge regarding audio hardware equipment and terms.

2. "High quality components, power supplies, distortion minimizations, meticulous attention to detail, good quality specialized engineering, not mass produced", are some of my phrases used to describe the high end stuff.

3. "The listening to, and enjoyment of, very well recorded quality music pieces in a high quality listening environment", is how I usually describe my "audiophile" passion.

[madmac]

Ok....I'll take a crack at this !!

1. How do you explain the difference between your hi end 2 channel rig, and a regular best buy stereo?

It sounds real....like the musicians and vocalist are in the room.

2. How do you explain the difference between "consumer grade" electronics and our "hi end" gear/world?

Quality of All the Internal components inside......specifically the amp sections.

3. How do you explain what an audiophile is?

[I]An audiophile is someone who sits down in front of their stereo and critically listens to music......just like people sit down and watch tv. They constantly fiddle with there gear and speaker placements in hopes of improving that sound, regardless of what it is or how much it costs. And, like all audiophiles, we dream of one day upgrading our stuff and enjoying the improved sound!!.

[emig5m]

Well I always say when you hear a voice of someone you know over the phone you recognize who's voice it is, but you can also tell it sounds like it's coming from a phone speaker (distortion/coloration/no dynamics) and not from someone standing right next to you. A higher end rig will sound more natural and real (caveat emptor: you're still at the mercy of setup and recording quality)

Next thing is fine detail and clarity... I always say put on a set of decent headphones with a decent source (which is actually my personal reference to all sound systems) and hear all the fine detail that a lower end system just wont extract and project to your ears. (headphones + cd player is much cheaper and to get right than buy a high end system and work with room/setup problems for the noobs to readily hear the difference)

But then it begs the question, what exactly determines what high end actually is? If you where comparing Walmart systems to the 683 then the 683 would be high end? Or is it CM9 level? Is it 804D level? Or is it 802Di level? Over the years I still have yet to determine where exactly the crossover is to so-called "high end" audio gear. The guy coming from Cerwin Vega would consider 683's high end but then the guy with the 804S calls the 683 rubbish and low end for example. I buy the best I can afford and be happy with and never really cared if it was considered "high end" or not. Because honestly, to me, especially with electronics, high end means 95% placebo but with a uber high build quality, lol. (don't kill me to bad : I believe this is much less true with speakers where it matters mostly and is the hardest to get right out of all gear)


"consumer grade" electronics and our "hi end" gear/world?

Mostly quality, but A LOT of snake oil as well. Like I told my friend who wants to upgrade his all-in-one Walmart sound system that he doesn't need to spend what I spent to have true hi-fi. A midrange Yamaha receiver, some B&W 685's, and whatever sub to compliment the 685's will do and be a DRAMATIC upgrade in fidelity over what he has... In fact, I enjoy demoing my 685's more-so than my 804S to noobs just to see the shock on their faces and catch them off guard of what they're capable of! Yea you expect something the price of the 804S to be superb before you even hear it play, but you don't expect the sound that comes out of those little 685's before you hear them, hehe. :lol:


Lets see.... An Audiophile... Anyone who cares about sound quality to strive to make it perform the best they can with setup & tweaking and also upgrading gear. Someone who also listens for minute details in recordings. Someone who builds a room around a sound system. Someone very susceptible to the "placebo effect" and "snake oil". :lol: Someone who sometimes spends more on audio equipment than they actually need. ANYONE who posts on audio forums regardless how cheap their system is - they're here or at AVS or the like because they do care. Audiophiles come in all price ranges and experience levels... I like the guys who says recommend me some speakers in such and such price range, I'm not an audiophile, but want something that sounds good.... HELLO You're an Audiophile!! : :B

[emig5m]

1. How do you explain the difference between your hi end 2 channel rig, and a regular best buy stereo?

Problem with that analogy IMO is that a regular Best Buy stereo can be a very good stereo now? For example, you can buy a Yamaha A2000, or a Denon 3311 and B&W CM9's at Best Buy and have a very good system that isn't what I would call regular hence why I personally used Walmart as an example. But yea, you can also get real crappy stuff at Best Buy as well (HTIB). Or am I just spoiled with having a Magnolia section at my local Best Buy? hehe. Seriously, I still would like to know where the crossover is from low to high end gear. I'm obviously confused in where that crossover is... Because I wouldn't consider a A2000/CM9 a regular system....but a system I'd be extremely happy to own.

[wettou]

Just remember the room is 50% of the sound :T

I would rather have an average system in a great room than a hi-end system in a bad room, for example a cube with windows and hard surfaces everywhere)

[style]

1. room 40%
2. electricity line
3. preampli
4. source
5 ampli
6 cables

1 and 2 without doubt. 3-4 is too a good point.... :T
a clean line make the differente from a high end and a good system.

have a system really equilibrate in all the pieces is very important!! :W

style

[dukester]

Tough to form a general response...if it ever comes up (w/c i try to avoid), i tend to compare it to one of their obsessions such as:

Golfer- Scotty Cameron or Skitty Cameron, there is a difference

Car Guy- Recaro or Recarlo, there is a difference

Cigar Guy- Full bodied with hints of cocoa, or Swisher 'sweet', there is a difference

Watch Guy- Panerai or Eco Drive, there is a difference...

I'm sure there're a ton of these...

[Briz vegas]

Well I always say when you hear a voice of someone you know over the phone you recognize who's voice it is, but you can also tell it sounds like it's coming from a phone speaker (distortion/coloration/no dynamics) and not from someone standing right next to you. A higher end rig will sound more natural and real (caveat emptor: you're still at the mercy of setup and recording quality)

Next thing is fine detail and clarity... I always say put on a set of decent headphones with a decent source (which is actually my personal reference to all sound systems) and hear all the fine detail that a lower end system just wont extract and project to your ears. (headphones + cd player is much cheaper and to get right than buy a high end system and work with room/setup problems for the noobs to readily hear the difference)

But then it begs the question, what exactly determines what high end actually is? If you where comparing Walmart systems to the 683 then the 683 would be high end? Or is it CM9 level? Is it 804D level? Or is it 802Di level? Over the years I still have yet to determine where exactly the crossover is to so-called "high end" audio gear. The guy coming from Cerwin Vega would consider 683's high end but then the guy with the 804S calls the 683 rubbish and low end for example. I buy the best I can afford and be happy with and never really cared if it was considered "high end" or not. Because honestly, to me, especially with electronics, high end means 95% placebo but with a uber high build quality, lol. (don't kill me to bad : I believe this is much less true with speakers where it matters mostly and is the hardest to get right out of all gear)


"consumer grade" electronics and our "hi end" gear/world?

Mostly quality, but A LOT of snake oil as well. Like I told my friend who wants to upgrade his all-in-one Walmart sound system that he doesn't need to spend what I spent to have true hi-fi. A midrange Yamaha receiver, some B&W 685's, and whatever sub to compliment the 685's will do and be a DRAMATIC upgrade in fidelity over what he has... In fact, I enjoy demoing my 685's more-so than my 804S to noobs just to see the shock on their faces and catch them off guard of what they're capable of! Yea you expect something the price of the 804S to be superb before you even hear it play, but you don't expect the sound that comes out of those little 685's before you hear them, hehe. :lol:


Lets see.... An Audiophile... Anyone who cares about sound quality to strive to make it perform the best they can with setup & tweaking and also upgrading gear. Someone who also listens for minute details in recordings. Someone who builds a room around a sound system. Someone very susceptible to the "placebo effect" and "snake oil". :lol: Someone who sometimes spends more on audio equipment than they actually need. ANYONE who posts on audio forums regardless how cheap their system is - they're here or at AVS or the like because they do care. Audiophiles come in all price ranges and experience levels... I like the guys who says recommend me some speakers in such and such price range, I'm not an audiophile, but want something that sounds good.... HELLO You're an Audiophile!! : :B

What do you need for good quality audio? An ipod and a pair of aftermarket IEMs to replace the stock earbuds. Full CD quality files through this setup will stun most that like music but don't do hifi. Tell them the IEMs cost as much as the ipod and they are shocked - but they still like the sound. I have done that at work with an ipod touch and some etymotic IEMs. No further explanation is usually required, just don't try and explain it to someone that isn't into music.

Regarding "snake oil", life is too short to get into that discussion.

[Blindamood]

Honestly, for those who do not participate in the hobby, I generally don't bother to try to explain in words. The only way to explain is to sit them down in the sweet spot and let them experience it for themselves. Comments such as "wow, that's the best system I've ever heard" will soon follow.

As mentioned above, other hobbies are very much the same way. How do I explain to someone how my $3K+ Cannondale carbon fiber road bike differs from their Huffy pseudo-mountain bike...put them on it and let them take it for a spin! (Just make sure you show 'em how to unclip first...) 8)

[BWLover]

Wow guys thanks for all your input

[emig5m]

What do you need for good quality audio? An ipod and a pair of aftermarket IEMs to replace the stock earbuds. Full CD quality files through this setup will stun most that like music but don't do hifi.

That's what I'm talking about. Honestly, it was a pair of headphones and a portable CD player that turned me into a true audiophile. When I was hearing all the subtle background detail with crystal clear clarity that I never heard before I stayed up all night listening to all my CDs.

Honestly, for those who do not participate in the hobby, I generally don't bother to try to explain in words. The only way to explain is to sit them down in the sweet spot and let them experience it for themselves. Comments such as "wow, that's the best system I've ever heard" will soon follow.

Yup, exactly. My bosses exact words when I was demoing the Transformers bluray is "why does it sound so good?" Hehe. Sadly, he still watches standard DVDs on a 55" 1080p plasma and uses the built in TV speakers. 8O

[wettou]

1. room 40%
2. electricity line
3. preampli
4. source
5 ampli
6 cables

1 and 2 without doubt. 3-4 is too a good point.... :T
a clean line make the differente from a high end and a good system.

have a system really equilibrate in all the pieces is very important!! :W

style

Hum didn't you miss something here like SPEAKERS :lol:

Here is my perspective
1. Room 40%
2. Speakers 30%
3. Amplifiers 10%
4. Quality of recordings 10%
5. preampli 5%
6. source 4%
7. cables 1%

Of course clean electricity other wise all of this does not work :B

[madmac]

Here is my madmac perspective...

1. Room - Not applicable....if speakers are properly placed and set up...sound should be ok in most average rooms...unless your in a bathroom!!.
2. Speakers 50%
3. Amplifiers 20% -Rotel woke me up in regards to amp importance!.
4. Quality of recordings 10% - This is a no brainer....if it's recorded bad...it's gonna' sound bad on any system. Probably worse on a good system actually!.
6. source 19% - This is important, but less important than the above.
7. cables 1% - Seriously overrated aspect of audio...specifically Toslink/ HDMI or any digital transfer cable....I mean, it's 1's and 0's folks!! It either gets there, or it doesn't !. How can a 1 or zero be better than the other???!!.

I'm sorry but I don't buy the 'clean' electricity thing. Outta' control there!.

[wettou]

Here is my madmac perspective...

I'm sorry but I don't buy the 'clean' electricity thing. Outta' control there!.

Unless you live in places where you have electrical spikes, Florida, Hawaii... Lost a few piece of equipment

[dknightd]

1. "Come in, sit down and have a listen",

Usually that is enough - and I'd only consider my system mid-fi

[madmac]

@ Wettou....Oh yes....I'm not talking about power spikes!. I mean, it is absolutely necessary to to have a good surge protector connected to your components. It's the 'power conditioners' I have an issue with. Not sure that if blindfolded that an 'audiophile' could tell if their system was plugged into one or not.........Probably NOT !!. :-)

[Kal Rubinson]

Here is my madmac perspective...

1. Room - Not applicable....if speakers are properly placed and set up...sound should be ok in most average rooms...unless your in a bathroom!!.

Egad! Most rooms are horrible. Anyone who has compared a "typical" living room with one with a modicum of intelligent treatment will realize that. Now, let's resume the rest of your reasonable analysis......

2. Speakers 50%
3. Amplifiers 20% -Rotel woke me up in regards to amp importance!.
4. Quality of recordings 10% - This is a no brainer....if it's recorded bad...it's gonna' sound bad on any system. Probably worse on a good system actually!.
6. source 19% - This is important, but less important than the above.
7. cables 1% - Seriously overrated aspect of audio...specifically Toslink/ HDMI or any digital transfer cable....I mean, it's 1's and 0's folks!! It either gets there, or it doesn't !. How can a 1 or zero be better than the other???!!.

I'm sorry but I don't buy the 'clean' electricity thing. Outta' control there!.

[style]

Hum didn't you miss something here like SPEAKERS

Here is my perspective
1. Room 40%
2. Speakers 30%
3. Amplifiers 10%
4. Quality of recordings 10%
5. preampli 5%
6. source 4%
7. cables 1%

Of course clean electricity other wise all of this does not work

hum, sorry wettou but this is a list for importance of the "gears" or how much do you think to invest in a single parts of your system?

electricity of course is sure not only to make "work" the system but a cable into the wall outlet or a dedicate line make the difference from a high end and a music center :B

a preampli for me is very important: a super ampli with a entry level pre is very different from a great preampli connect to a ampli not with the label Classe!

..............

[cjm80]

Soundstage has always been something that puzzles me. How do some speakers create a "better" ie more 3 dimensional and with the speakers becoming transparent?

My guess would be that a higher end system has more detail and "space" between insrruments, meaning the brain is more able to spearate different parts of the recording into what it perceives as a soundstage but I'm surd there's more to it?

[baniels]

I would add that simply sitting down with the intention to actively (and only) listen to music would take a few of these percentage points. A lot of people never even think of doing that.

[mrciave]

1. When the gear and the speakers disappear and only the music remains, that's hi-fi. No matter the level or price!

2. Mmmmm, if something is polished or billet machined, is it hi-end :W ? I guess hi-end means no compromise components and build quality, which of course affect the price exponentially. Sadly, not always hi-end means hi-fi!

3. You have two categories:
- The music audiophile, who looks for the closest possible music reproduction to live events OR an interpretation of them that suits his taste -> His ultimate target is as in point 1., sit down and listen to the music forgetting there's some 2 channel rig doing it
- The gear audiophile, who actually is more interested in the gear itself than in what's actually reproduced; this guy probably never went to a live concert (being classic, rock, jazz, whatever), his favourite CD is a CD TEST, and he listens to the girl with a guitar and some bells in the background...

Needless to say, I'm a music audiophile and cannot stand gear audiophiles :T !

NOTE: OK, OK, I also have Chesky "The Ultimate Demonstration Disc" and was introduced to hi-fi through Rebecca Pidgeon. But definitely that disc comes out just as a tool, not as a source of pleasure :roll: !

[mrciave]

Soundstage has always been something that puzzles me. How do some speakers create a "better" ie more 3 dimensional and with the speakers becoming transparent?

My guess would be that a higher end system has more detail and "space" between insrruments, meaning the brain is more able to spearate different parts of the recording into what it perceives as a soundstage but I'm surd there's more to it?

Guess it's all down to the S/N ratio and the phase. Any small distortions, phase delays or increase in the noise floor, will actually confuse everything and thus soundstage gets "opaque".

Dynamics also play a big role, your system must be able to reproduce the very loud stuff, but also the very silent one. Guess what, sometimes I'm more impressed by the "silence" or "black" between the instruments, rather than by the instruments themselves.

That's because the small details and nuances can be heard by you only if the system is able to be silent. Any noise or distortion will cover these small details, leaving you with a dull music reproduction!

That's at least my understanding of things...