B&W 805's vs. B&W 683's

[steelgtr]

Hi Guys,

I currently have Nautilus 805's (not S or D) and they are nice for certain things (Dianna Krall), etc. but are lacking for HT. I always wished I had got the CDM 9NT's when I could. I love the FST™ midrange speaker and the extended low end from a tower.

I don't know much about the 683's except they are Chinese, but that in itself shouldn't be a bad thing if the components are still B&W quality?


So, would I be disappointed or would it be a step up in overall sound quality?

Powered by a Pio Elite VSX-59txi, bi-amped

thx

bob

[stuofsci02]

I haven't heard the Nautilus 805, but I still think it would be step down in overall quality, soundstage, imaging and clarity to goto a 683 from the N805.

Of course the 683 will have more impact and bass for sure, so you may prefer them for movies.

If you really are looking for something like the CDM 9NT, you might want to look at the CM8 or the CM9. These are the current B&W speakers that sit where the CDM 9NT used to. They have the FST midrange. The CM9 (which is the only one I have listened to) sounds excellent.

Also the CM7 which was discontinued a few weeks ago might still be around at local shops for a good deal. I recently picked up a pair of these for a second system, and have been impressed. These are a bit smaller however, and may not have a huge impact for movies.

Of couse as a final choice, you could add a nice sub (or two), to fill in the bass for movies. This is never a bad approach.

But at the end of the day you need to audition...

*EDIT*.. I forgot to mention, I used to have a pair of 683 (which I used for music and movies). These were my mains for 2 years.

[Pio]

Hi Guys,

I currently have Nautilus 805's (not S or D) and they are nice for certain things (Dianna Krall), etc. but are lacking for HT. I always wished I had got the CDM 9NT's when I could. I love the FST™ midrange speaker and the extended low end from a tower.

I don't know much about the 683's except they are Chinese, but that in itself shouldn't be a bad thing if the components are still B&W quality?


So, would I be disappointed or would it be a step up in overall sound quality?

Powered by a Pio Elite VSX-59txi, bi-amped

thx

bob

The B&W factory in China is world class - lots of great gear is designed in Europe or USA then built in China - Parasound does it. That shouldnt deter you, however when I was in your shoes, I just decided to buy a pair of subs and use them with my 805's in my HT set up. The 805 (even the early non-S) version are such great sounding speakers IMO - the cabinet is rock solid and they can dish out a great sound stage - match them up with a pair of Velodyne's or JL Audio and it would rock.

If you do decide to get a larger speaker, I would check out audiogon.com, they usually have killer deals on 804 / 3 D's.

Good luck!

[dukester]

i too am a previous owner of the 683's and the only thing i can imagine they're better at is bass. not to say the the 683's are bad, just that i don't think they would produce better detail/soundstage/imaging than the 805's. if HT impact is what you are looking for, maybe getting a better center channel (htm4s) and 2 quality subs is a better path...since you have a solid foundation in the 805's. Auditioning the 683's without the 805's will make it difficult to appreciate your 805's, especially if what you're looking for is bass. But again, i'd put my money on the 805's for clarity and detail...

[audioqueso]

Hi Guys,

I currently have Nautilus 805's (not S or D) and they are nice for certain things (Dianna Krall), etc. but are lacking for HT. I always wished I had got the CDM 9NT's when I could. I love the FST™ midrange speaker and the extended low end from a tower.

It's a step down. I have the N805's. I just heard all of the 600 series a few weeks ago at the local dealer with much better components than what I have. They are very nice, but the difference is still very noticeable.

What components are you using with the 805's? I felt the same as you did about the 805's characteristics back when I first received my 805's until I changed certain components.

[KRC]

If you like the CDM series, I have a pair of 703's which are the next generation in the line and I love them. They have the FST midrange, bass is low and tight and with the open tweeter, has great image and sound stage. you could find a pair on the used market (ebay and audiogon). I guess it all depends on your budget of course. I also listen to Dianna Krall/Holly Cole and they sound awesome as they both have that voice that tests the midrange. Good luck.

[steelgtr]

Step down. I have the N805's. I just heard all of the 600 series a few weeks ago at the local dealer with much better components than what I have. They are very nice, but it's the difference is still very noticeable.

What components are you using with the 805's? I felt the same as you did back when I first received my 805's until I changed certain components.

My AVR is a Pio Elite VSX-59txi.

thx for all the replies

bob

[steelgtr]

i too am a previous owner of the 683's and the only thing i can imagine they're better at is bass. not to say the the 683's are bad, just that i don't think they would produce better detail/soundstage/imaging than the 805's. if HT impact is what you are looking for, maybe getting a better center channel (htm4s) and 2 quality subs is a better path...since you have a solid foundation in the 805's. Auditioning the 683's without the 805's will make it difficult to appreciate your 805's, especially if what you're looking for is bass. But again, i'd put my money on the 805's for clarity and detail...

I do have the matching center and a nice sub.

The lure of the FSR Mid *and* the fuller,lower sound is a bonus, too.

I do find the 805's to be harsh at times, BTW.

bob

[stuofsci02]

800 series speakers are extremely revealing. This can make a poor recording sound even worse.. If I were you I would go audition some of the other speakers 683, CM9 etc. and see if you prefer these. You may also want to consider using a preamp and power amp instead of the AVR. This might be the next step for you in getting the most out of your current setup..

[htsteve]

800 series speakers are extremely revealing. This can make a poor recording sound even worse.. If I were you I would go audition some of the other speakers 683, CM9 etc. and see if you prefer these. You may also want to consider using a preamp and power amp instead of the AVR. This might be the next step for you in getting the most out of your current setup..

steelgtr,

This is my thinking as well. You have very nice gear. But 800 series speakers, even the 805's, were designed to be driven by dedicated power amps. Receivers simply have a hard time delivering to a bunch of current hungry speakers. It's the inherent issue with most receivers. It's a nice all in one chassis solution, but there are limitations as to how much can be packed into that chassis.

A good 2 channel amp on the 805's might fix things up nicely (keep your receiver as a pre-amp for now). You might even be surprised at the bass they can produced when given full power.


Hope this helps.

[Briz vegas]

800 series speakers are extremely revealing. This can make a poor recording sound even worse.. If I were you I would go audition some of the other speakers 683, CM9 etc. and see if you prefer these. You may also want to consider using a preamp and power amp instead of the AVR. This might be the next step for you in getting the most out of your current setup..

I have not found more detail to be a bad thing on "bad" recordings, quite the opposite in fact. My music collection includes alot of rock, alternative, and even some 80 year old recordings. For example, this recording (ripped from CD) sounds great on my system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8hqGu-leFc

Its warts and all but it still sounds good, not harsh

If the 805 is sounding harsh then I suggest that you have a problem elsewhere as they are a very revealing speaker.

The places I would look would be your room and your source. Vibration control on disc spinners and DACs will improve sound clarity and can reduce harshness while improving resolution. Room treatments will also help in this regard. I have successfully achieved positive results and virtually eliminated harshness by addressing these issues.

Another way to put it, you will not find 683s at Skywalker studios, you will find 800 series speakers. I'm not knocking the 683 but the 805 is a superior design.

[steelgtr]

Thanks, Guys

When I got the 59txi, I was hoping for separates quality in one chassis. I'm sure you guys know it was a $4500 rcvr and the last of the "heavy mosfet", pre-ice technology.

I'm not defending the AVR, just want to make sure everyone knows that it's not the current middle of the road junk that's out there.

I do have a B&K 1430 3x200 power amp but no room for it!

thx

bob

steelgtr,

This is my thinking as well. You have very nice gear. But 800 series speakers, even the 805's, were designed to be driven by dedicated power amps. Receivers simply have a hard time delivering to a bunch of current hungry speakers. It's the inherent issue with most receivers. It's a nice all in one chassis solution, but there are limitations as to how much can be packed into that chassis.

A good 2 channel amp on the 805's might fix things up nicely (keep your receiver as a pre-amp for now). You might even be surprised at the bass they can produced when given full power.


Hope this helps.

[htsteve]

I do have a B&K 1430 3x200 power amp but no room for it!

Bob,

Interesting. I assume you mean the B&K is too big. You might consider trading that amp in for a newer, smaller class D amp. Maybe Rotel's Class D's are a good option here. They are pretty small. I used to own a 1077. Amazing performance to size ratio.



Hope this helps.

[stuofsci02]

steelgtr,

Can you tell us about the rest of your system. What is your source? How is it connected to the AVR etc.. This info will give a better picture of what is happening.

Cheers,

Stuart

[Briz vegas]

My B&W dealer has been very pleased with NAD receivers with 805s and I drive my HTM7 centre and 705 surrounds (close cousin to the 805) with a Denon 4310 - no problems with harshness their either. I don't think you need to loose the receiver with the 805. You are more likely to have issues driving the 683 with a receiver.

Another thought. I have had poor results using some power boards in the past. What are you using to plug all your gear into the wall. Some of them can give you a thin or coloured sound. At a mates place we found that even the Thor power conditioner was a detrimental step in sound quality over a basic but well constructed power board.

[steelgtr]

Thanks for all the replies!

I have found a pair of 804's locally that might be willing to take my 805's plus cash. I have to assume the 804's are more power hungry than the 805's? I might have to question an upgrade then if my 59txi won't cut it. My room is small, 14x18, 8' ceiling.

What would be a fair cash offer for the 804's with my 805's and stands.

Would some folks actually prefer the 805's? (simplicity of a 2 way, etc)?


thx

bob

[steelgtr]

steelgtr,

Can you tell us about the rest of your system. What is your source? How is it connected to the AVR etc.. This info will give a better picture of what is happening.

Cheers,

Stuart

Pio Elite VSX-59txi, Pio 51 BD player, analog outs.

thx

bob

[stuofsci02]

steelgtr,

Assuming both pairs of speakers are in excellent shape:

The N805 will typically fetch around $1500-1800 on the used market with the stands and original packaging. The 804s will go for around $2900-3200 with original packaging.

Therefore I think $1400 - $1500 + your N805 w/ stands would be a fair deal.

[stuofsci02]

steelgtr,

Although the Pioneer BDP-51 is a higher end BD player, in general there are few BD players that can compare with even a cheap dedicated CD player or Transport + DAC. In general BD and DVD players will have a grainy/harsh sound in the higher frequncies. I find this is most evident in cymbals etc.

If after you change your speakers you still feel something isn't quite right, you may want to demo some CD players or DACs. The DAC route might make the most sense since you can use your existing BD player as a transport.

Also you mentioned maybe needing more power for the 804s. IMO you don't. In fact the 804s might even be a slightly easier speaker to drive. I looked up your AVR and in stereo with both channels driven it could output >150 watts . It is also stable into a 4ohm load so you should be good. So long as you like the sound you will have no issue.

Here is a set of 804s being driven by a 40wpc stereo amp..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLHj4KpZbUY&feature=fvsr

[Shinnosuki]

Actually I think $1500-$1700 with stands is almost a steal. I would fetch for $1800-$2000 if that was including stands. The speakers by itself is lowest I seen $1400-$1600 already. 805 stands are worth like $300-$400 in good condition, so that brings your total value to almost $2000.

But $1400-$1500 to pay extra including your 805N and stands, it's pretty fair, considering if you don't have to go through the process of selling fees and shipping.

[stuofsci02]

Shinnosuki

I think this will be a complete bargain then...

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1294245259&/B-W-Nautilus-805-spkrs-beautif

I think at the end of the day he will just have to offer the delta on the speakers. He can't ask for maximum used price for his 805 and then ask to pay min used price for the 804s.. Or can he?

[steelgtr]

steelgtr,

Assuming both pairs of speakers are in excellent shape:

The N805 will typically fetch around $1500-1800 on the used market with the stands and original packaging. The 804s will go for around $2900-3200 with original packaging.

Therefore I think $1400 - $1500 + your N805 w/ stands would be a fair deal.

I just wanted to be clear. Both my 805's and the 804's are Nautilus, not S or D.

Audiogon has a few pairs of 804's for $1850 to 2100.

I was hoping for my 805's plus $500

thx

bob

[steelgtr]

I actually bought the 51 mainly *for* CD playback. The rave reviews of the DAC's on AVS forum convinced me. People with very expensive high end CD players said the 51 was remarkable. Especially for $150.00, closeout.

thx


bob

steelgtr,

Although the Pioneer BDP-51 is a higher end BD player, in general there are few BD players that can compare with even a cheap dedicated CD player or Transport + DAC. In general BD and DVD players will have a grainy/harsh sound in the higher frequncies. I find this is most evident in cymbals etc.

If after you change your speakers you still feel something isn't quite right, you may want to demo some CD players or DACs. The DAC route might make the most sense since you can use your existing BD player as a transport.

Also you mentioned maybe needing more power for the 804s. IMO you don't. In fact the 804s might even be a slightly easier speaker to drive. I looked up your AVR and in stereo with both channels driven it could output >150 watts . It is also stable into a 4ohm load so you should be good. So long as you like the sound you will have no issue.

Here is a set of 804s being driven by a 40wpc stereo amp..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLHj4KpZbUY&feature=fvsr

[stuofsci02]

I just wanted to be clear. Both my 805's and the 804's are Nautilus, not S or D.

Audiogon has a few pairs of 804's for $1850 to 2100.

I was hoping for my 805's plus $500

thx

bob

Ok.. For N804 I think you are in the range for sure...

[steelgtr]

Is there any application which would make the 805's preferable to a 3 way tower? Small room? Simplicity of a 2 way? Just curious why anyone would be interested in trading "down".

thx

bob

[htsteve]

steelgtr,

N804's are very nice speakers. They definitely will help on the low end of things. They are full range speakers.

Having said that, the power issue will become even more pronounced with the N804's. Those bass drivers like power. And receiver power will be taxed.

I ran my N804's at one point with a Rotel RB-1080. 200 watts X 2, and good current. This was a very nice combo. Used 1080's on Audiogon are about $600 or so.


As to the appeal of an 805, the size is definitely one. Easier to place. Might have higher WAF.


Hope this helps.

[steelgtr]

I offered my speakers plus $500 and he turned it down because my stands (very nice) aren't genuine B&W!

thx

bob

[Briz vegas]

My B&W dealer would probably say "no loss" as he likes 805 over 804. I personally think the 804 need more power than a receiver can deliver but I am talking about optimising their performance. As a step along the road you can run them OK with a receiver then get a power amp next year.

I think it is worth taking a moment to work out how far you want to take this investment and what sound you are looking for. Only way to do that in my opinion is to try and listen to a number of other peoples systems within a reasonable price range (not $100k if you can avoid it).

i would even try taking you little 805s on a road trip if you can. You might be surprised at how they sound with different electronics. You might gain a better appreciation of their strengths and weakness as a component. If doing this you have to pay attention to everything in the listening rooms - everything makes a difference, cables, power, furnishings etc. By way of an example , my new 3 seater couch which replaced a 2 seater had a significant negative impact on the 3D sound stage I was getting.

I think it would be very worthwhile getting to know your speaker before you get rid of it.

[steelgtr]

Words of wisdom, for sure!


thx

bob

My B&W dealer would probably say "no loss" as he likes 805 over 804. I personally think the 804 need more power than a receiver can deliver but I am talking about optimising their performance. As a step along the road you can run them OK with a receiver then get a power amp next year.

I think it is worth taking a moment to work out how far you want to take this investment and what sound you are looking for. Only way to do that in my opinion is to try and listen to a number of other peoples systems within a reasonable price range (not $100k if you can avoid it).

i would even try taking you little 805s on a road trip if you can. You might be surprised at how they sound with different electronics. You might gain a better appreciation of their strengths and weakness as a component. If doing this you have to pay attention to everything in the listening rooms - everything makes a difference, cables, power, furnishings etc. By way of an example , my new 3 seater couch which replaced a 2 seater had a significant negative impact on the 3D sound stage I was getting.

I think it would be very worthwhile getting to know your speaker before you get rid of it.