802Di or 800Di

[Rod#S]

Those filters will not make any difference, of course, as even the Diamond tweeters don't get up into that range. :W

Whoops, my bad, thanks Kal, yeah 350kHz is quite a step up from 350Hz :B I'll edit my post :P

[wettou]

So what is it that allows the 800Di's to blow away the 802Di's? I'm just trying to figure out why that is because on paper at least the only thing the 800Di's have over the 802Di's is a lower bass response due to the 10" drivers. The mid and tweeter are identical. Please don't think I'm challenging anyone or implying any level of dishonesty in people's comments because I'm not. The tech person in me is just wondering if as an experiment 800Di's and 802Di's were set up side by side in a blind test and say one or two subs were used, crossed over at say around the 100kHz area (I know the crossover in the speakers is at 350Hz but most receivers/processors can not crossover so high) would someone be able to hear a difference do you think? Obviously comparing the 2 speakers running full range should be more noticeable.

Do the 800Di's have better electronics? That in and of itself could explain why people hear such a difference between the 2 speakers. Just curious. Rod

The best is to experience both and then you will see :B

[Rod#S]

I would really like to but I don't even have an opportunity of listening to the 802Di let alone the 800Di so I can only gain knowledge through those of you lucky enough to own them

[style]

hi,

I had more D and DI B&W speaker for my HT system: my personaly position is that a 803d/di as surround (for movie) is only wasted money.

with a set front HTm2d, 803di L&R, 803D rear (and sub) I dont "see" the sense to invest lot of money in a 804di or bigger speaker for surround.
if you go listen concert (now in bluray disc, or sacd..) Ok, I agree. for HT the rear like 805/804s are more as enough. of course all depend if you have a dedicate room, with a acoustic panel &Co..... listen in 4.0 (or event. 4.1) music
OK a good "rear" is a good choice but for a movie fan NO.

802di and 800di are very similar (the room is make the difference).
------

a setup with 802d2, htm2d2, rear 805d2 (and sub ) make you fly in a HT system.
more is "only" if you have a lot of money and the "great room" to go place all the jewels like 800 and 802 as rear!!! but a 802 as surround in a mobie is really not necessary.

like more menber write the equilibrium is the key for the success!
with speaker high level you don't can go search a cable in internet to have a good price.
at first in a high end system the "power cord" and a dedic line is the VERY first point to say is a good & great system and is a HIGH END system!
a Rgray or Isoket /hydra only for the source (? 4-6k. $$) plus 6 power cord other 5k. $$ are necessary.

xlr: I dont believe in a "voodoo" cables but with so a chain xlr muss be the high product from every brand: you fdont can go with a entry level - medium product !!
Is like buy a Porsche and go make the service the a garage near home for
car used from "normal people!"

speaker, pre, power ampli, cd player,....cables is a "visa platimun" with 500'000$$ only for the gears... and a service with expertise, they go place every piece fom the speaker to the las little panel muss be in the budget!
a little way to the succes are not availble.!
money and money!

@Canuck525: yes 802 clinical....but with a "right" cabel (NOT SILBER=more clinical sound!!!)
give you another sound. solution: or change the pre with a tube to have a "hot" sensation" ; use a COPPER cables ...


style

[style]

a really HIGH END system without $$$ compromise!

[scanido]

Style your contributionof all these awesome looking systems is most welcome. That room looks amazing! Love how they have incorporated that preamp on wheels.

I've got to agree with you that a system is only as good as at it's weakest link. One should not overlook good connections.

[wettou]

Whoa that is impressive $500,000 worth with the room

I would love to try the following configuration with Audussey DSX 11.2 having 11 speakers 5 802Di in front at 30 degree angles, and then two side surrounds at 90 and two side back at 120 with two more height in front :W

For movies it must be unbelievable I hope I ca find a dealer with a set-up like that!

I am looking forward to DTS Neo:X

http://www.electronichouse.com/article/dts_theater_packs_an_11.1-channel_surround_sound/

Unfortunately Classé SSP-80 will never provide these formats

[Kal Rubinson]

Unfortunately Classé SSP-80 will never provide these formats

Not the SSP-80(!) but perhaps the SSP-8000.

[wettou]

Right the SSP-8000 for $12,000

Well I will just buy a Marantz pre/pro at that time for $1,500 and use my Classé amplification :T

What did you rate the 800Di :E

[Kal Rubinson]

What did you rate the 800Di :E

I didn't.

[aarsoe]

PS. That is not a pre-amp but the famous Cello..

[wettou]

I didn't.

Will you rate the 800Di 8O

[Kal Rubinson]

Will you rate the 800Di 8O

When the time comes, I will.

[JürgenW]

As I wrote earlier somewhere here I own the Matrix 801 S3 and considering updating to the 802Di.
After having heard the 802Di in the shop I got them yesterday at home for the weekend.

First thing I noticed is that the 802Di is smaller than I thought (my Matrix are standing on stands and are a bit higher than the 802Di).
Next thing: What me stuck when listening is the more forward (to the listener) orientated sound and thus more spacious. It get’s me a bit more involved.

So I tried my ‘standard’ listening repertoire: Anna Netrebko, Sempre libera; Mahler 2, KCO, Jasons; Fleming: Strauss, with Thielemann; Fleming: Bel Canto; Miles Davis, Kind of Blue; Von Otter, Mahler, Zemlinsky and a classic sampler.

Let me give a general impression for now (I am a bit cautious because I know first impression can be very coloured (because of expectations and so on)).
The 802Di give a more spacious sound.
It let’s you here ‘more’ (to give one example: the basic noise of the recording of Kind of Blue is better to hear, but luckily it is not irritating).
I would say that the 802Di is ‘faster’ than the Matrix. When e.g. listening to Mahler 2 by het Concertgebouworkest (Jasons) I had the feeling that the music was played faster than before. And the sound is a bit more ‘snappy’.
At evening my wife and I listened to Leonard Cohen’s DVD ‘Live in London’. Very involving.

It may seem by now that the 802Di sounds by far better than the Matrix. But that is not true (for me). The Matrix still holds its own (and will stay in my home anyhow). In the low frequencies I am not sure which of the two speakers I like better.

Which brings me to my question. As I said the 802Di looked smaller in my room than I thought. So I could place the 800Di. I could think an improvement on the following, compared to the 802Di: more relaxation and more naturally bass.

Should I go for the 800Di? Anyone?

[Skyblue]

As I wrote earlier somewhere here I own the Matrix 801 S3 and considering updating to the 802Di.
After having heard the 802Di in the shop I got them yesterday at home for the weekend.

First thing I noticed is that the 802Di is smaller than I thought (my Matrix are standing on stands and are a bit higher than the 802Di).
Next thing: What me stuck when listening is the more forward (to the listener) orientated sound and thus more spacious. It get’s me a bit more involved.

So I tried my ‘standard’ listening repertoire: Anna Netrebko, Sempre libera; Mahler 2, KCO, Jasons; Fleming: Strauss, with Thielemann; Fleming: Bel Canto; Miles Davis, Kind of Blue; Von Otter, Mahler, Zemlinsky and a classic sampler.

Let me give a general impression for now (I am a bit cautious because I know first impression can be very coloured (because of expectations and so on)).
The 802Di give a more spacious sound.
It let’s you here ‘more’ (to give one example: the basic noise of the recording of Kind of Blue is better to hear, but luckily it is not irritating).
I would say that the 802Di is ‘faster’ than the Matrix. When e.g. listening to Mahler 2 by het Concertgebouworkest (Jasons) I had the feeling that the music was played faster than before. And the sound is a bit more ‘snappy’.
At evening my wife and I listened to Leonard Cohen’s DVD ‘Live in London’. Very involving.

It may seem by now that the 802Di sounds by far better than the Matrix. But that is not true (for me). The Matrix still holds its own (and will stay in my home anyhow). In the low frequencies I am not sure which of the two speakers I like better.

Which brings me to my question. As I said the 802Di looked smaller in my room than I thought. So I could place the 800Di. I could think an improvement on the following, compared to the 802Di: more relaxation and more naturally bass.

Should I go for the 800Di? Anyone?

I have had the 802di for 4 months now. They improve a lot during the first couple of hundred hours. And they do sing better with big amps than with small, albeit they actually sounded quite nice with my cambridge integrated 100watt amp.

As for the 800di vs. 802di, imo. the biggest difference is the midrange. The 800s kills the 802's in the midrange. As for bass, I guess it is fuller, but amps where different. I have my 802s hooked up to 600watt amps and I dont particularly miss any bass at all.

Edit: But I can remember missing it when I first got them. So perhaps its an issue of getting used to their particular sound, or, they have actually improved in the bass region as I added larger amps and let them loosen up a bit.

[JürgenW]

Thanks,

The 802Di's I have over the weekend are the ones which are used for demonstration in the shop. So I think they will not improve (much).
Luckily my amps are big enough for all the mentioned speakers.

I am a bit astonished that you say that the 800 excel in the midrange. That would mean (to me) that there are more musical, more in balance. Hhmmmm.

[Skyblue]

Thanks,

The 802Di's I have over the weekend are the ones which are used for demonstration in the shop. So I think they will not improve (much).
Luckily my amps are big enough for all the mentioned speakers.

I am a bit astonished that you say that the 800 excel in the midrange. That would mean (to me) that there are more musical, more in balance. Hhmmmm.

sorry to reiterate the usual advice, but give the 800di's a listen. I found them clearly better to the 802s in the store. However, the 802s in my home are also clearly better than the 802s in store. Why I dont know.

[JürgenW]

give the 800di's a listen. I found them clearly better to the 802s in the store. However, the 802s in my home are also clearly better than the 802s in store.

Well, I found the 802's at home better than in the store, too. :B
So I am wondering will the 800s be better at my home, too.

(At least, I can give the 800s another listening in the store.)

[Pedro]

Good comparison. I dont have many experience with M801 but with 802D or 802Di you will never get all you expect, you will sure trade advantages. The nautilus series wasnt a good option for upgrade from matrix because the difference of the sonic signature. In my opinion, there are 3 options: 800Di, 800D and 801D. With these you willl be completely satisfied and would forget your lovely M801. The 801D would become a special thing, if you find it in good conditions the price will be 2x cheap than a new 800Di. :T

[Rod#S]

So when you guys are saying that the 800Di's deliver a much better midrange performance compared to the 802Di's are you talking about the frequencies below 350Hz? The reason I ask is because if you are talking about the frequencies between 350Hz and 4kHz that would be what the Nautilus head handles and since that is to my knowledge identical between the two speakers I can't get my head around how it is better in the 800Di. If you are commenting on the frequencies below 350Hz then I could see the potential benefit of the 2 10" drivers over the 2 8" drivers. Gosh I wish I could experience the 800Di for myself.

[Rod#S]

Whoa that is impressive $500,000 worth with the room

I would love to try the following configuration with Audussey DSX 11.2 having 11 speakers 5 802Di in front at 30 degree angles, and then two side surrounds at 90 and two side back at 120 with two more height in front :W

For movies it must be unbelievable I hope I ca find a dealer with a set-up like that!

I am looking forward to DTS Neo:X

http://www.electronichouse.com/article/dts_theater_packs_an_11.1-channel_surround_sound/

Unfortunately Classé SSP-80 will never provide these formats

5 802Di's up front, that would indeed be sweet. What about the 4 surrounds, 4 more 802Di's?

Since you are a 800Di man why not 5 800Di's up front? :B

[wettou]

Gosh I wish I could experience the 800Di for myself.

What is your location?

[Rod#S]

East coast of Canada, Nova Scotia

[Canuck525]

If there is a difference in the midrange it would mainly be due to changes in the crossover itself. I would have thought the midrange would have been very similar.

[wettou]

East coast of Canada, Nova Scotia

Sorry, I am on the other side of the world for you with Palm Trees and Sun shine

[beden1]

Sorry, I am on the other side of the world for you with Palm Trees and Sun shine

How concerned are the people of Hawaii about the nuclear problems in Japan? Is it hurting your tourism?

[wettou]

How concerned are the people of Hawaii about the nuclear problems in Japan? Is it hurting your tourism?

Very concerned

[aarsoe]

If there is a difference in the midrange it would mainly be due to changes in the crossover itself. I would have thought the midrange would have been very similar.

The 800's use better caps for the midrange section (2x22uF Mundorff supreme vs a single larger cap in the regular Mcap range..) but the bass crossovers are identical - but you can change that yourself if you feel like doing it..

[PavelL]

The 800's use better caps for the midrange section (2x22uF Mundorff supreme vs a single larger cap in the regular Mcap range..) but the bass crossovers are identical - but you can change that yourself if you feel like doing it..

I feel like doing it all right yet I still think space is too tight in there Anders, may I ask that you share pictures with us? I'd love to see how you managed to cram two caps into where there is space for only one :roll: THANKS ;x(

[JürgenW]

Life ain't easy.
Yesterday I compared the 802Di and the 800Di in the shop (after I had the 802Di for a weekend at home).

I'll liked the 800Di better. It seems to me that it is a more relaxed speaker and that it has the 'easiness' I always admire in the Matrix 801 S3. The 802Di is a the more agitating speaker to me.

BUT! The big square foot of the 800Di makes the speaker much more clumsy than the 802Di with the nicely curved foot and when you position the 800Di a bit in direction to the listener the square foot goes with it, which gives it a more undesirable look.

So I don't know what to do. Go back to the 802Di after having enjoyed the 800Di more, buy the less nicely looking speaker or stick to my Matrix 801 S3.

[Rod#S]

The 800's use better caps for the midrange section (2x22uF Mundorff supreme vs a single larger cap in the regular Mcap range..) but the bass crossovers are identical - but you can change that yourself if you feel like doing it..

Thanks very much for this piece of info, this has been what I have been looking for to help quantify the differences people are hearing between the mids of the 802 vs the 800 given that they have the same speakers and cabinet design for the mids and of cource the tweeter.

[Pedro]

So I don't know what to do. Go back to the 802Di after having enjoyed the 800Di more, buy the less nicely looking speaker or stick to my Matrix 801 S3.

If you can afford the 800Di buy them. Being the audio the main reason for upgrade i wouldnt mind the look of the 800Di. Also you pointed 802Di with less bass than M801S3. With 800Di you wouldnt miss that. :T

[JürgenW]

Thanks. Of course you're right.
I don't see why B&W dit it. I know that the crossover of the 800Di is in the foot, but that didn't force them to make it square.

Well, I started by making a template, to see how it fits into our! :W room.
I'll give it a few days, before I'll make a definitive decision.

[aarsoe]

I feel like doing it all right yet I still think space is too tight in there Anders, may I ask that you share pictures with us? I'd love to see how you managed to cram two caps into where there is space for only one :roll: THANKS ;x(

Pavel

Sorry, but actually only have pictures of my "upgrade" of the other caps in the tweeter section to the newer and better gold/silver/oil versions.
Will take a photo next time when I plan to upgrade the speaker plugs to WBT nextgen versions but don't know when I will find the time, to be honest..
However I do recall having to put them off to the side using silver wire covered with Teflon tubing in order not to get a short one day.
But it can be done if you strap them together and use some silicone to attach them. Biggest issue is still that B&W uses industrial solder than requires almost 400 c of heat to melt. So one of the really cheap gas/propane solder irons are almost perfect for the job.

[aarsoe]

Thanks very much for this piece of info, this has been what I have been looking for to help quantify the differences people are hearing between the mids of the 802 vs the 800 given that they have the same speakers and cabinet design for the mids and of cource the tweeter.

Rod

You're welcome, but if you look under the spare parts posting you will find a link to B&W group repair info that also contains diagrams and component values. So easy to see for your self..

[Rod#S]

Rod

You're welcome, but if you look under the spare parts posting you will find a link to B&W group repair info that also contains diagrams and component values. So easy to see for your self..

Excellent, thanks for the additional info.

[JürgenW]

Question for Kal Rubinson

Yesterday I received the May issue of stereophile with the review of the 800Di.
While Kal Rubinson mentions several differences to other speakers, e.g. the 'old' 802D, John Atkinson concludes that he is astonished that the behavior in the test lab was similar to the 'old' 802D. And he concludes: The sonic differences KR describes lie in the details.

I am wondering if KR agrees from his listening experience with the concluding sentence by JA (based, I suppose, on the measurements), which gives me the impression that the 800Di might not be worth the extra money, if even the 'old 802D is so similar.

[Kal Rubinson]

You have read what I had to say. Note that I had the opportunity to hear them side-by-side in my room and that JA's measurements and remarks are based on his receipt of a single 800Di, not the pair that I have.

If the differences I heard are due to "details," they are significant details.

[JürgenW]

Thanks Kal,
:T

[Skyblue]

Yesterday I received the May issue of stereophile with the review of the 800Di.
While Kal Rubinson mentions several differences to other speakers, e.g. the 'old' 802D, John Atkinson concludes that he is astonished that the behavior in the test lab was similar to the 'old' 802D. And he concludes: The sonic differences KR describes lie in the details.

I am wondering if KR agrees from his listening experience with the concluding sentence by JA (based, I suppose, on the measurements), which gives me the impression that the 800Di might not be worth the extra money, if even the 'old 802D is so similar.

Whether some improvement is worth the extra money is always very subjective. I have now read Kal's review, and generally agree. The big difference between the 802di and the 800di is in the midrange where the 800di kills the 802di. I never heard the 802d but from the description the difference is the same. Imo the 800 di is a much more complete speaker and more pleasant to listen to. That is not to diminish the 802's. I have just had those for 4 months and loved them, but when my dealer gave me the chance to upgrade, I went for it. My 800di's should be here after easter.

[JürgenW]

Imo the 800 di is a much more complete speaker and more pleasant to listen to. That is not to diminish the 802's. I have just had those for 4 months and loved them, but when my dealer gave me the chance to upgrade, I went for it. My 800di's should be here after easter.

Well, I ordered the 800Di a few days before the review appeared; after having listenend to the 802Di at home and comparing the 802Di and the 800Di at the dealer's shop. I agree with your impression. I wanted a speaker which shows a clear improvement to my Matrix 801 S3 and gives the same impression of balance, authority and easiness. (I should get the 800Di over a few weeks, which is confirmed by B&W. )

About the review and the report about the measurement in stereophile.
Actually I was wondering if one could measure relatively small details, whereas for a listerener the differences a bigger. Couldn't the reason be that certain aspects which help to make the sound are not measured?

[Pedro]

Congrats Jurgen. Unfortunately i never heard the 800Di but for what i read is obvious one of the best speaker B&W did. I did listen the 800D(old) and i didnt like its midrange a bit analytic and chose 801D over it. Overall was a matter of taste i gained much more bass for my type of music. For that time it was the best B&W i ever heard.

I dont know but if B&W put back the 801Di we would be surprise again for its performance

[Skyblue]

Well, I ordered the 800Di a few days before the review appeared; after having listenend to the 802Di at home and comparing the 802Di and the 800Di at the dealer's shop. I agree with your impression. I wanted a speaker which shows a clear improvement to my Matrix 801 S3 and gives the same impression of balance, authority and easiness. (I should get the 800Di over a few weeks, which is confirmed by B&W. )

Well, there seem to be a consensus for this impression then

About the review and the report about the measurement in stereophile.
Actually I was wondering if one could measure relatively small details, whereas for a listerener the differences a bigger. Couldn't the reason be that certain aspects which help to make the sound are not measured?

If it can't be measured it doesn't matter is my motto. This seems to be something that we can so far only measure with our ears. That does not mean it can't be measured, just that we haven't found a way to measure it yet.

In that respect, I think music reproduction is only in its digital infancy. However, as we see more and more refined measurements (like jitter and more), and more and more computer aided speaker design, I'm fairly certain we will see significant leaps in sound reproduction quality. Not all steps will be an improvement, but by and large, the systems you can buy in 20 years will likely put the current ones to shame.

[beden1]

Well, there seem to be a consensus for this impression then



If it can't be measured it doesn't matter is my motto. This seems to be something that we can so far only measure with our ears. That does not mean it can't be measured, just that we haven't found a way to measure it yet.

In that respect, I think music reproduction is only in its digital infancy. However, as we see more and more refined measurements (like jitter and more), and more and more computer aided speaker design, I'm fairly certain we will see significant leaps in sound reproduction quality. Not all steps will be an improvement, but by and large, the systems you can buy in 20 years will likely put the current ones to shame.

Don't hold your breath on the revolutionary changes in speaker designs, as there have not been that many measurable changes since the 1960's, IMO.

[Skyblue]

Don't hold your breath on the revolutionary changes in speaker designs, as there have not been that many measurable changes since the 1960's, IMO.

Otoh, we still dont have any measurements that can be translated into a measure of musical enjoyment. Once you have that, I think we can start building simulated speakers, ie. they can try out thousands of designs before deciding which one to build. This is just a matter of time. IT will arrive in the audiophile world sooner or later.