From 704 which way now? 804s or 803s

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  • rado
    Junior Member
    • Apr 2007
    • 28

    From 704 which way now? 804s or 803s

    Hello guys,

    I am consider some speakers upgrade of my 704 which are very detailed and musical, but sometimes lack from more deep and distinct bass.
    They are powered in bi-amp mode from two Marantz PM-15S1. CD Player is Marantz SA-15S1. I am using Chord Odyssey 4 speaker cable and Chord Chorus 2 RCA IC. The listening position is max. 8' and my room is 20/13'. Good pressure level is reach by pushing volume knob between 12 and 1 on clock.

    So, I hesitate between 804s and 803s where is my budget.
    Is there any difference in powering them. At this moment I feel that there is control over 704. I think someone here had this system with 804s

    Thanks in advance,
  • htsteve
    Super Senior Member
    • Sep 2004
    • 1216

    #2
    rado,

    Do you have a sub? Your focus seems to be low end performance. A good sub will help there.


    If you have the budget for 803 or 804's, you might consider a sub like the JL Audio Fathom. A reference sub. Does everything extremely well. It should be less expensive than a new pair of speakers.

    It appears you are driving the 704's with an integrated amp. I like integrated amps, but for speakers like the 704, I would prefer a separate stereo amp. About 200 watts per channel. A powerful amp like that will also improve the extension and quality of the bass.

    Bi-amping with the Marantz's will still only deliver 80 watts to the bass drivers. They generally need more than this. Hence the recommendation for a dedicated stereo amp.



    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by htsteve; 10 June 2010, 13:02 Thursday.

    Comment

    • rado
      Junior Member
      • Apr 2007
      • 28

      #3
      No, I don't have sub and will never do. I am for pure stereo. HT is the last dream. I am sure in near future that some amp upgrades have to do, but let it be speakers first.
      I think Marantz will do job with 804s or 803s.
      These are reference series Marantz PM-15S1 90/140W at 8/4 Ohm.

      Thanks,

      Comment

      • pazu
        Member
        • Nov 2009
        • 77

        #4
        Hallo Rado.

        I've B&W 803S and i think 140 W/4 ohm are not enough for these loudspeakers.

        They've a minimum impedance 2.9 ohm around 300 Hz and it's important to have an amplifier with a great power.

        Comment

        • rado
          Junior Member
          • Apr 2007
          • 28

          #5
          What about MARANTZ PM-11S2

          Comment

          • htsteve
            Super Senior Member
            • Sep 2004
            • 1216

            #6
            Originally posted by rado
            No, I don't have sub and will never do. I am for pure stereo. HT is the last dream. I am sure in near future that some amp upgrades have to do, but let it be speakers first.
            I think Marantz will do job with 804s or 803s.
            These are reference series Marantz PM-15S1 90/140W at 8/4 Ohm.

            Thanks,

            rado,

            Speakers are the front line of a stereo system. So getting really good ones will help. Then getting the proper electronics will help.

            Since you do not plan to have a sub, I would say the choice between the 803 and 804 would be the 803. But as pazu noted, these require the power to deliver the very good performance, especially in the bass area.

            Also, the Marantz reference integrated does look very good. But I am still concerned about the ability to drive a speaker like the 803. I would suggest keeping the current Marantz and getting a outboard stereo amp. Like a Rotel RB-1080 (or the 15 series equivalent). I had one of those driving my N804's with very good results.


            Hope this helps.

            Comment

            • pazu
              Member
              • Nov 2009
              • 77

              #7
              Originally posted by htsteve

              Since you do not plan to have a sub, I would say the choice between the 803 and 804 would be the 803. But as pazu noted, these require the power to deliver the very good performance, especially in the bass area.



              Hope this helps.
              Yes, that's true!

              I think the best choice would be an amplifier with 200 W RMS / 8 ohm or more.

              :T

              Comment

              • Horacio
                Senior Member
                • Jan 2005
                • 142

                #8
                Originally posted by rado
                No, I don't have sub and will never do. I am for pure stereo.
                rado,

                You might be missing something here. I'm a stereo "fundamentalist". I don't care for HT, heck my preamp is such a purist 2-channel that has no remote and a volume pot for each channel. Yet I do have a sub, which is only used for stereo.

                I second what HTSteve said: you seem most concerned with bass, and a JL would be great (I have REL Storm III). Let me suggest you don't rule out a sub for stereo.

                These are the two ways I can think of of using a sub properly for stereo:
                • Have the sub input take the signal from the 704 amp. Then the sub gets exactly the same signal, which is good. This is the recommended approach for REL subs.
                • Have an outboard crossover between you preamp and amps, so you would send to the Marantz a limited signal, say from 90 Hz up. This relieves your Marantz from reproducing the energy consuming lowest end, and relieves the 704 from reproducing frequencies where it distorts some. The rest of the signa, 90 Hz and down, is sent to the sub. So you are actively biamping.


                Additionally, there are other benefits from using a sub for stereo. Neither the 803S or 804S will ever be able to reproduce frequencies below about 40 Hz well (I have 804S and can attest for it). The optimal position within a room for a sub is not the same as for the mids and tweeter (one has to do more with standing waves, while the latter respond more to ray-type reflections).

                I suggest you allow yourself to consider it.

                My two cents, of course!

                Comment

                • rado
                  Junior Member
                  • Apr 2007
                  • 28

                  #9
                  Thanks Horacio,

                  No, I don't miss too much bas and don't like it being boomy.
                  Once again, for now I have very high resolution and control specially on jazz and acoustic music.
                  I think to keep the one MArantz PM-15S1 using it as PRE and go for power amp such SM-11S1 Reference Stereo Power Amplifier (110W/8 Ohmh, 220/4 Ohm)

                  Is this will help with 804s or 803s?
                  Just want to know which of both speakers is more hard to drive.

                  Thanks,
                  Last edited by rado; 11 June 2010, 09:49 Friday.

                  Comment

                  • mrciave
                    Senior Member
                    • Apr 2010
                    • 105

                    #10
                    Hi Rado,

                    just out of my experience, I agree with you that for pure stereo listening, a sub is a no-go. I just bought a set of B&W 802D, and love the fact that with, say, classical music, the grand drum can be located on the soundstage, meaning, you feel the grand drum is placed left/right of the orchestra.

                    I expect that, with a mono sub, this will not happen.

                    So, my guess is that 803 or 804 with no sub, even if not going so deep with frequencies, will give a more realistic soundstage than smaller speakers with a sub.

                    Just out of curiosity, are you Japanese?

                    Andrea
                    2ch Setup: Esoteric SA-50, Linn Sondek LP-12 with Lingo and Ittok, Benz Ace SL, Gryphon Diablo, B&W 802D, Kubala-Sosna Emotion XLR and Speaker, Purist Audio Dominus power cords with Oyaide C/P-004/046, Finite-Elemente Pagode Master Reference, Cerapuc, Cerabase, Bybees

                    Home Theater Setup: Panasonic P50VT50T Plasma, Oppo BDP-95 BD Player with digital optical to Esoteric

                    Comment

                    • rado
                      Junior Member
                      • Apr 2007
                      • 28

                      #11
                      No, Bulgaria.

                      Comment

                      • pazu
                        Member
                        • Nov 2009
                        • 77

                        #12
                        Originally posted by rado
                        Just want to know which of both speakers is more hard to drive.

                        Thanks,
                        In my opinion, 803S!

                        Comment

                        • rado
                          Junior Member
                          • Apr 2007
                          • 28

                          #13
                          Pazu,

                          Whether Marntz SM-11S1 Reference Stereo Power Amplifier (110W/8 Ohmh, 220/4 Ohm) will make job http://us.marantz.com/Products/2258.asp, also Accuphase P-5000?
                          Is it possible Accuphase and Marantz to have phase mismatch?

                          Thanks,

                          Comment

                          • pazu
                            Member
                            • Nov 2009
                            • 77

                            #14
                            Originally posted by rado
                            Pazu,

                            Whether Marntz SM-11S1 Reference Stereo Power Amplifier (110W/8 Ohmh, 220/4 Ohm) will make job http://us.marantz.com/Products/2258.asp, also Accuphase P-5000?
                            Is it possible Accuphase and Marantz to have phase mismatch?

                            Thanks,
                            Both Marantz and Accuphase are very good amplifiers, but in my opinion they are too expensive if we consider them caracteristics.

                            For example, I drive my 803S with this italian amplifier:



                            it's a fantastic amplifier and you can read the price...

                            :T

                            P.S.: Sorry, but I don't know about Accuphase and Marantz phase mismatch...

                            Comment

                            • rado
                              Junior Member
                              • Apr 2007
                              • 28

                              #15
                              I wonder Accuphase E-560 (pure class A) whether will work fine with 804s and 803s.

                              Comment

                              • Horacio
                                Senior Member
                                • Jan 2005
                                • 142

                                #16
                                803S will be a bit harder to drive than 804S just because of the larger woofer. I drive my 804S with a McIntosh MC275 which is 2x75W, tubed, and I love the match.

                                As for the sub...frequencies under say 60 Hz are non-directional, meaning you can't locate where they are coming from anyway. The directionality from a grand drum comes from the attack in the notes which are well above that frequency. But I guess I have the advantage of talking from experience. Try and give it a listen for yourself and decide. You might come out confirming what you think today, but you will know for yourself as opposed to believing in what somebody you don't know says.

                                Then, boomy bass has a lot to do with room accoustics. Is your room treated? Do you know its frequency response? Bass trapping does wonders, for boominess and soundstaging.

                                Anyway, both the Marantz and Accuphase are great amps, from what I read.

                                One thing to check is impedance matching, though. You probably won't have an issue driving the Marantz amp from the receiver's pre out. But keep in mind the pre output impedance should be at least 10 times smaller than the amp's input impedance. Also note impedance varies with frequency, so what you really want is the worst case impedance, generally located on the bass.

                                Horacio

                                Comment

                                • rado
                                  Junior Member
                                  • Apr 2007
                                  • 28

                                  #17
                                  So, thinking of 803s, Marantz PM-11s2 (2x100, 2x200W) or new Accuphase E-450 (2x180, 2x260W) respectively at 8/4 Ohm.

                                  For Marantz I can go for both of them in bi-amp, but not for Accuphase which is 6000 Euro. Another choice is to keep one PM-15s1 for pre and add power amp.

                                  Thanks,

                                  Comment

                                  • rado
                                    Junior Member
                                    • Apr 2007
                                    • 28

                                    #18
                                    Guys, I think that forgot most important. Room size is 20'x13' (~25m2)
                                    So, 804s or 803s for non dedicated room?

                                    Comment

                                    • htsteve
                                      Super Senior Member
                                      • Sep 2004
                                      • 1216

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by rado
                                      Guys, I think that forgot most important. Room size is 20'x13' (~25m2)
                                      So, 804s or 803s for non dedicated room?

                                      I have 802D's in an 11' X 16' room, so you can definitely fit either option in a room that size.

                                      Comment

                                      • specialized
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Apr 2008
                                        • 332

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by rado
                                        Guys, I think that forgot most important. Room size is 20'x13' (~25m2)
                                        So, 804s or 803s for non dedicated room?

                                        Try to find my previous posts on this forum.. I have write a lot about diferences between 703, 804 and 803s. In this moment i have 803s and 805s as rears (im between HT, SACD and pure stereo )

                                        Im in similar room size and i prefered 803s in comparation with 804s. Also becouse u are in Bulgaria and i live in Macedonia u are welcome to listen my setup if u like..

                                        Greetings

                                        Darko

                                        p.s. When i decided which way to go i have in same time 703s, 804s, 805s, and 803s

                                        Comment

                                        • pazu
                                          Member
                                          • Nov 2009
                                          • 77

                                          #21
                                          I live in Palermo.

                                          If you want to listen to my 803S... After all, Bulgary is not so far away from here...

                                          :W

                                          Comment

                                          • rado
                                            Junior Member
                                            • Apr 2007
                                            • 28

                                            #22
                                            I think just now, I have opportunity for big deal. 802D for 5000 Eur.
                                            Is it too big for my room? The setup will be on the short wall with internally isolation of fibran.
                                            What you are thinking?

                                            Comment

                                            • Skyblue
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Jun 2009
                                              • 504

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by rado
                                              I think just now, I have opportunity for big deal. 802D for 5000 Eur.
                                              Is it too big for my room? The setup will be on the short wall with internally isolation of fibran.
                                              What you are thinking?
                                              Don't buy them on the web, but otherwise I think go for it.

                                              Oh make space for them too
                                              B&W 800 Diamond, B&W805S, B&W DB1, Classe SSP 800, DIY Icepower ASX2 600W monos, Ayre QB9, JPlay.

                                              Comment

                                              • rado
                                                Junior Member
                                                • Apr 2007
                                                • 28

                                                #24
                                                How much space around them I will need?

                                                Comment

                                                • Skyblue
                                                  Senior Member
                                                  • Jun 2009
                                                  • 504

                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by rado
                                                  How much space around them I will need?
                                                  I think ideally 3m between them, and 1/2 m to the walls on either side. And a room of at least 5m length. Though some people have gotten good results with less space.
                                                  B&W 800 Diamond, B&W805S, B&W DB1, Classe SSP 800, DIY Icepower ASX2 600W monos, Ayre QB9, JPlay.

                                                  Comment

                                                  • htsteve
                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                    • Sep 2004
                                                    • 1216

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Skyblue
                                                    I think ideally 3m between them, and 1/2 m to the walls on either side. And a room of at least 5m length. Though some people have gotten good results with less space.

                                                    rado,

                                                    802D's for 5000 Euro seems to me to be a good deal. Assuming they are working fine, I would grab them if the finances allow.

                                                    As to placement in your room, I agree with this statement. I have my 802D's on an 11 foot wall. They are about 3 meters apart. The are about a meter off the wall behind them. They form an equal triangle to my listening position, which works out very well.

                                                    The 802D's sounded excellent in my room from the start. I've since done some acoustic treatments and they are even better.



                                                    Hope this helps.

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Audio_ElF
                                                      Senior Member
                                                      • Oct 2007
                                                      • 271

                                                      #27
                                                      One thing that (I think) you need to consider is if your purchase of the 803S will be all you can spend for a few years, or will you be buying speakers now and able to upgrade (power)amps later?

                                                      If you'd 803S spend is all you have, then 804S with a better power amp may give you a better system than 803S with your current power amp. Whereas if you can spend more later, no hesitation get the 803S now and upgrade the poweramps (if needed) later.

                                                      Having said all that, at the end of the day you really need to listen with your partnering equipment (and room) before spending that kind of money.

                                                      Eloise

                                                      Comment

                                                      • Dmantis
                                                        Moderator Emeritus
                                                        • Jun 2004
                                                        • 1036

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by rado
                                                        No, I don't have sub and will never do. I am for pure stereo. HT is the last dream. I am sure in near future that some amp upgrades have to do, but let it be speakers first.
                                                        I think Marantz will do job with 804s or 803s.
                                                        These are reference series Marantz PM-15S1 90/140W at 8/4 Ohm.

                                                        Thanks,
                                                        In order to replay "pure stereo" you need to cover the full range which is 20hz to 20Khz. Without a sub my friend you will not achieve this even going with the mighty 803s.
                                                        Your "pure stereo" image will always hold your system back.

                                                        On a side note , I have Installed 400k systems for just "pure stereo" and we usually run 1 to 2 subs depending on the room.

                                                        Comment

                                                        • emig5m
                                                          Senior Member
                                                          • Aug 2008
                                                          • 646

                                                          #29
                                                          It's probably because he's never heard a system with the sub decently integrated and has been turned off by the flip-floppity sound where the sub is real noticeable from the mains and location can be pin-pointed. I had the same problem in the past with using a sub for 2-channel music..... Honestly, IMO, integrating a sub seamlessly is the hardest thing to do in a sound system... Far harder than setting up mains for a good sweet spot...

                                                          Comment

                                                          • Horacio
                                                            Senior Member
                                                            • Jan 2005
                                                            • 142

                                                            #30
                                                            +1 on the subs!!!

                                                            I also second the vote, should budget be constrained, for a smaller speaker and better amp if the 802D and lesser amp are the only other option. Of course 802D and great amp would be preferred if budget allows... :T

                                                            Regarding location: a general rule is to have the distances to the side and back walls differ in at least 30%, meaning if the distance to the back wall is 3 feet then the distance to the side wall should be at least 4 feet. Note these distances are from the front of the tweeter to each wall. This is so the cones, mainly the woofer, excites different length and width room modes. These of course aren't hard numbers, but more a guidance so you try and avoid placing the speakers at the same distance from each wall.

                                                            Comment

                                                            • eyalp
                                                              Junior Member
                                                              • Apr 2010
                                                              • 27

                                                              #31
                                                              "but sometimes lack from more deep and distinct bass. "

                                                              Well, I did not hear your amp. but I have the 704s'. Lately replaced my nad c-352 amp to the musical fidelity M6i. One of the big improvements is in the bass. Much more deep and distinct. Just very good!
                                                              That does not say that 803 are not better speakers..they sure are! But I am not sure u will get all you want to get, without changing your electronics.

                                                              Comment

                                                              • Pedro
                                                                Senior Member
                                                                • Jan 2006
                                                                • 303

                                                                #32
                                                                well well, i dont know how low the 801D could down below 20hz but i am very satisfied with them. For stereo i don´t miss bass, even playing my favorite rock and metal style. They sing in a 40m² room

                                                                Comment

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