Keep 804S or "upgrade" to 803S

[scanido]

Hello Folks,

As the thread title states, I have the opportunity to "upgrade" my 804S to 803S at my dealers. Since i will be able to get 100% of what i invested into my 804S I was curious to know what your thoughts are about this "upgrade". The price differential is about $1800 CAD to go with the 803S. Is it worth the added expense?

I cannot demo the 803S at my dealer so your observations on sound differences are very important to me.

The reason driving my decision is because I'm moving into my new house which will have a great room about 19' x 13' and will serve as a family and living room. 2/3 will be used for a home theatre. Given this room size, which speaker would be ideal? Will my 804S sing authoritatively in this room above reference levels?

Money and room size aside, which do you think is more aesthetically pleasing coupled with the HTM3s?

BTW, I'm not interested in any of the Diamonds as i would have to upgrade my center and electronics.

What are your thoughts? Which speaker would you go with?

[scanido]

26 views, no opinions? :huh:

[Cambs12]

Hi,

I have not heard the 804s,but as a CDM9nt owner(which i thought were very close to the old Nautilus 804) i have auditioned the 803s and upwards.

If the cost is reasonable to you,i would jump at the chance,the depth of bass,soundstage would be noticeable better with the 803s,as would be the jump again to 803d,though i appreciate this is a different proposition!

I thought the 803s was a great speaker,and well worth the money.

[RNKC]

I personally find that as you move up the 800 series, the differences are worth the extra $$$. Keep in mind though that the 803 are bigger and therefore have different power requirements than 804. Your Rotel will probably be adequate, but if you go with 803 you may want to eventually upgrade your amp as well.

Out of curiosity, which dealer do you go to? Feel free to PM me if you don't feel like posting publically.

[sikoniko]

Your Rotel will probably be adequate, but if you go with 803 you may want to eventually upgrade your amp as well.

I disagree here. I had the rotel 1055 with the N804, and found that after upgrading my amp, how underpowered the 804's were. Upgrading to 803s will be a good upgrade, but you will need to upgrade your amp very soon, as you will not be getting much benefit of the speakers...

[shades]

I tried both and my conclusion was to stick with the 804s. The 803s had better low end but not enough to justify the price. Now the diamond were very noticeable in all aspects but way out of my price range.

RNKC,

If your looking for a dealer try audio-one.ca the guy i dealt with is very cool and usually gives me 15% discount, with a 100% trade in as well. I did this with my 805s

[BTB]

I'd keep my current speakers... incremental "upgrades" are never really as good as you think they'll be. My question to you would be... is it your burning desire to own the 803's? I mean, would that have been your next planned upgrade anyway?

If not, this is just one of those temptations that present themselves from time to time, where you could make the deal just because it happens to be on offer.

I have a medium term plan to upgrade my speakers, but in the meantime I've made two amp upgrades since I own my (modest) little 704's in preparation for the "big" upgrade... and each time I have done so, the speakers have shown me positive performance returns, much more than I thought they were capable of. In other words... there may be a level of performance lurking in your current speakers that you are not yet exploiting.

So, in short... I wouldn't make the (costly) change just cause it's out there.

[scanido]

So, in short... I wouldn't make the (costly) change just cause it's out there.

I'm starting to lean towards this direction...

When i got into the B&W world just over a year ago I started with DM603's. Prior to this i have always wanted the 704 or better yet the 703, but could not afford either at the time. One day i told my self. Now that i look at it i have 804S's which is a huge jump for me!

I am very content with my speakers and after going to another B&W dealer and physically seeing the 803S, I may think otherwise now. Aesthetically, i think the 803S do not look proportioned well. The cabinet is huge for the tweeter and makes it look minuscule. I didn't get a chance to demo, but will shortly.

The only concern i have is whether or not the 804S will fill a large room (13' x 19'). I'm looking for great sound just above reference levels. Anyone one with experience with 804S in a similar size room care to share their experience on sound performance?

The real question is if i get a +200W amp, will the 804S fill a 13 x 19 size room or even larger authoritatively?

Thanks,
Steve

[sikoniko]

I'm starting to lean towards this direction...

When i got into the B&W world 2 years ago I started with DM603's. Prior to this i have always wanted the 704 or better yet the 703, but could not afford either at the time. One day i told my self. Now that i look at it i have 804S's which is a huge jump for me!

I am very content with my speakers and after going to another B&W dealer and physically seeing the 803S, I may think otherwise now. Aesthetically, i think the 803S do not look proportioned well. The cabinet is huge for the tweeter and makes it look minuscule. I didn't get a chance to demo, but will shortly.

The only concern i have is whether or not the 804S will fill a large room (13' x 19'). I'm looking for great sound just above reference levels. Anyone one with experience with 804S in a similar size room care to share their experience on sound performance?

The real question is if i get a +200W amp, will the 804S fill a 13 x 19 size room or even larger authoritatively?

Thanks,
Steve

My reply is based on my own journey... I will not give you my history, and will try to sum this up as brief as possible.

The way I looked at upgrades, I looked at what my money got me, and how to get where I want to be incrementally, because I could not afford to build the system all at once. With dealer trade-in, I felt that it was important to upgrade, until I got to my end-goal, which was the N802's. I enjoyed the N804's, but they just weren't full enough of a sound. They had great mids, and highs, but it seemed to be overbearing in comparison to the feel of the full spectrum. They were definately better than the N805's they replaced, but not quite satisfying still.

Once I upgraded my speakers, I began to upgrade the electronics. Keep in mind that the 803s's will be a little off-balanced looking to you, but close your eyes and listen. Thats what its all about right?

[miner]

Keep the 804s (as you have done) and add a sub. A used B&W 800 series for around $1500 will add the bass you are looking for. I cintemplated uping from the N804 to the 803S but found adding am ASW800 (new-discontinued) for $1400 did the trick for me and was much less than the upgrade differential.

[scanido]

Any thoughts surrounding this?

The only concern i have is whether or not the 804S will fill a large room (13' x 19'). I'm looking for great sound just above reference levels. Anyone one with experience with 804S in a similar size room care to share their experience on sound performance?

The real question is if i get a +200W amp, will the 804S fill a 13 x 19 size room or even larger authoritatively?

[miner]

My great room is approx. 25' X 30' with 12' ceilings. Speakers are N804 & ASW800 sub, amp = Rotel RB-1092 (500 x 2); Pre = Rotel RC-1090. I have never gone past the 12 o'clock position on my vokume knob. Sound is spectacular, not harsh or distorted even though room needs treatments.

[scanido]

Thanks Miner! It's good to know the 804S can fill a room that size. That should make it a breeze for them in my planned room then.

Any idea what SPL the 12 o'clock position would be? I usually listen at 70-80db average, but at times when i feel like cranking them I can go over 90-95db average.

[Boone38]

I had the 805s and then sold them to get the 804s. I have the htm4 center mated with a Velodyne spl1200r. As for power of the 804s I had the Rotel 1075 which was enough power to fill my room of 18x27. I never went over 73 on the Rotel 1068 volume. I sold the 1075 and just bought the Classe' 6x75. This mated with my AVM30 still fills the room very nicely. I thought about the 803s but felt the jump from 804s was not needed. I added the sub as noted above.

The added power can help but not as much as you think. I would agree with the other reply and add the sub. This will make the biggest difference in the sound and compareable to the 803s.

[sikoniko]

I guess this should have been stated a while back... add the sub if HT is your priority. upgrade the speakers if 2 ch is your priority.

[Clepto]

I would think your next upgrade would be better served by dipping into the 'D' line

[scanido]

I would think your next upgrade would be better served by dipping into the 'D' line

I agree, however i do not plan to buy speakers i cannot do justice to. If i got the 803D's, they would be run off this lolly RSX-1057 for years! :B

The line needs to be drawn at some point, and for me that line will be determined here.

Looks like a 50/50 take on the 804S and 803S.

[scanido]

I guess this should have been stated a while back... add the sub if HT is your priority. upgrade the speakers if 2 ch is your priority.

I'm about 60/40 home theater to 2CH. I actually like the sound of 2CH with a properly integrated sub.

[jayhawk75]

i would save the money i have done the side by side and unless you jump to the 803d you will find yourself not getting that immediate gratification of a noticable improvement. you are better off spending on a sub than going from 804s to 803s.

[scanido]

i would save the money i have done the side by side and unless you jump to the 803d you will find yourself not getting that immediate gratification of a noticable improvement. you are better off spending on a sub than going from 804s to 803s.

Either way, I will have a sub if i went for 804S or 803S.

If I were to integrate a sub for 2CH listening and HT and set a x-over b/w the speakers and sub to be at 60Hz, would it be correct to assume both speakers would sound almost identical?

[sikoniko]

Either way, I will have a sub if i went for 804S or 803S.

If I were to integrate a sub for 2CH listening and HT and set a x-over b/w the speakers and sub to be at 60Hz, would it be correct to assume both speakers would sound almost identical?

I dont think so. You have to account for the difference in cabinet size... it will still be a fuller, more robust sound with the 803s...

[uncle_dito]

Any thoughts surrounding this?

Hi Scanido,
Please find some discussion on a previous thread related to 804S and improvement alternatives.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=23722

I guess my conclusion is that cabinet size should make a difference, as frecuency response is quite similar across the B&W range, and subwoofer act on lower frequecies. So, when you audition the larger speakers and find more weight and body, with the same electronics, the difference should be cabinet size. Also to take into account as I was advised, position of speakers can improve also the performance.

Good luck with your decision.

[jayhawk75]

Either way, I will have a sub if i went for 804S or 803S.

If I were to integrate a sub for 2CH listening and HT and set a x-over b/w the speakers and sub to be at 60Hz, would it be correct to assume both speakers would sound almost identical?

brief history
i had yamaha ns1000 studied the b&w lines. got the 804s at very good deal,brought them home did side by side with ns1000 no improvement, so kept the ns1000 in use. did the side by side 804s to 803s at dealer found small difference still not the soundstage i was looking for. did side by side by side 803d to 802d and there is a large difference in what your ears are hearing but i found the sound more suitable to my ears with the 803d. i brought those home. currently 803d for fronts as i am more 80/20 2 channel. 804s rears for movies. see no mention of a sub. to fill system for 5.2 i am now studying subs, however if i had stayed with 804s as fronts i would have had to immediately go out and bought sub for the soundstage and forever missed the smile on my face when i listened to the 803d with no sub needed in 2 channel. the best part is feeling no upgraditous with the 803d which you would feel if you ever listened to them side by side with 804s or 803s.

[Fife]

Scanido,
I would go 803S if 2 channel were you main preference.

Since you favor HT 60/40 vs 2 channel, I would just keep your 804s.

The 803S and 804S have the same power requirements.

Quite a dilemna really. I find upgrading to bigger speakers is not always the best and you may have to factor in cost of better amps.

[chinets]

I agree with Fife, but those 803s are just worth the upgrade...so tempting, because those 803s are remarkable!! And the Sound...Blissssssssssssssssssssss!!
Cheers and Good luck!

[scanido]

Ran into a similar thread on avsforum and the responses are interesting, including POST #12 from the man himself Kal Runbinson from Stereophile.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=736201

Here's an excerpt of what he wrote:

"...One advantage of the 804S, over both 803 models, is its narrower cabinet which is better for the radiation pattern of the FST midrange. Low bass aside, I thought the 804S sounded better away from room boundaries than the 803S."

[scanido]

Hi Scanido,
Please find some discussion on a previous thread related to 804S and improvement alternatives.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=23722

I guess my conclusion is that cabinet size should make a difference, as frecuency response is quite similar across the B&W range, and subwoofer act on lower frequecies. So, when you audition the larger speakers and find more weight and body, with the same electronics, the difference should be cabinet size. Also to take into account as I was advised, position of speakers can improve also the performance.

Good luck with your decision.

THanks, so what did you end up going with?

[uncle_dito]

THanks, so what did you end up going with?

Once I realised that a sub would not give me what I wanted, I started to consider upgrading to B&W803D. So now I am waiting for some opportunity, but main problem is wife, which is happy with B&W804 looks, and terrified by 803D´s.

[scanido]

Once I realised that a sub would not give me what I wanted, I started to consider upgrading to B&W803D. So now I am waiting for some opportunity, but main problem is wife, which is happy with B&W804 looks, and terrified by 803D´s.

Oh good luck with that! My fiancee already thinks the 804S are over-bearing!!

[jayhawk75]

Once I realised that a sub would not give me what I wanted, I started to consider upgrading to B&W803D. So now I am waiting for some opportunity, but main problem is wife, which is happy with B&W804 looks, and terrified by 803D´s.

this is a easy fix take her in to do a side by side with 803d and 802d/801/800d and have sales rep work up a quote she wont realize what happened to her terror that she originally had.

[scanido]

Thanks to all who have voted and provided insight into this matter. I appreciate all your help.

Well, I have finally gotten a chance to demo the 803S and have found the soundstage to be quite large. The bass of the larger drivers also immediately caught my attention. The sound was fuller and i'm not sure if this is a good thing. With the 804S the sound i notice is more crisp and brighter sounding (in a good way). Now i was not able to do a side by side as they did not have an 804S on hand, but from being used to the 804S this is what i observed.

Now I'm still leaning towards keeping the 804S, however I'm going to twist my original question and ask what do you think would match better with the HTM3S? I know B&W says both will match well, but on a sonic level which one is better?

Since the 804S has the closer cabinet volume and same driver configuration as the HTM3S I would say the 804S are better matched.

What do you think?

Thanks again,
Steve

[sikoniko]

Most likely issues related to room and speaker placement...

Do what makes you happy. I have a feeling you'll get the same reply's we've already given.

[dmccombs]

Scanido,

I have both the 804s and the 803s. The 804s have a tight, but relatively light bass. As I have come from large full speakers, I felt the 804s bass too light for my taste. They are very accurate though.

The 803s has a fuller sound, especially in the bass range, but also in the midrange. I personally prefer this. The 803s like to be a little further form the walls, but are easier to place. In my room the 804s had to be very precisely placed to sound thier best.

But, here is the catch. If your amps power and source quality are only so-so, then the differences are subtle. If you have adaquate power, source quality and can give the 803s 3+ feet of room on each side, the 803s can sound much better than the 804s.

I hope this helps a bit and explains why some people say there is not a big difference between the 804s and 803s.

To answer your last question the HTM3 is closer to the 804s for the reasons you specify, but with all 5 channels going you will have a hard time hearing that subtle difference.

Regards,
Darrell

[CJM]

UPGRADE! I recently did the exact same thing (see recent posting)! With all due respect to some of the others, adding a sub will give you a nice explosion with HT, but you will still lack the complexity and depth with hi-fi audio. Spend your money on the better speakers! You won't regret it.

[scanido]

The beasts are in!!!

Well Folks,

I've decided to take the upgrade and now am breaking in my lovely new 803S in stunning Black Ash. All I have to say is these new speakers look and sound amazing right out of the box!!! :lol:

At first I thought the speakers were overweight 804S, but after a few days of getting used to them, aesthetically, they have certainly grown on me and am starting to think they go hand in hand moreso with the HTM3s. This was one of the driving factors in my decision. I just thought the 804s look dis-proportioned in relation to the big center. The 803S look well balanced now when from front row center! Also, my new place will be about 19' x 16' and the 803S would fit perfectly in this space which i think the 804S would look to scrawny.

Now for the sound - OPEN, bigger soundstage, fuller midrange, punchier bass, did i mention Open! After 12 straight hours of break-in, I sat down to listen to my usual recordings and the above words came straight to mind rat off the bat. I read some comments that the 804S image better during my decision making, but i can attest to this and strongly disagree. In my own opinion i can certainly say the 803S are more open and bigger sounding than the 804S! Having lived with the 804S for 10mo, the open-ness and better imaging of the 803S was actually the first attribute i noticed which caught my attention. I am actually very surprised with the sound as I was honestly just expecting lower bass like a few have said. The comments from previous 804S to 803S owners hold true, that its not just the bass where the two differ, but the critical midrange and upper bass. B&W certainly did do something special with this model!

As for LCR integration, this too has improved. Prior to my upgrade the front sound stage was very good, but when listening to 5CH music i noticed the HTM3S was slightly louder and had punchier bass - this could be because of the sealed design. Now with the 803S the integration seems more seamless and fluid for the low end. The bass now blends so well in 5CH music.

Overall, the extra money to upgrade was well worth it and i recommend that if your contemplating b/w the 804S and 803S and that you have the space, budget, you owe it to yourself to give them a listen.

Thanks to all who have provided me feedback directly and indirectly. Also, want to thank Clause and David over at Brack Electronics here in Toronto for having exemplary customer service and knowledgeable sales people. Without the first-rate customer service I received this upgrade would not have been possible. If your in the GTA i highly recommend them! :T

The Beasts... :lol: :lol:









804S running on a Yamaha HTR-5890 :rofl:

[RebelMan]

Congrats on your purchase scanido, you have done well. Here is a post I made almost two years ago. I think you will find it reafirms your decision and that there others that feel just as you do. Contrary to your comment on the other forum, I think your decision to pick the 803S was for all the RIGHT reasons. :T

[miner]

I wish my local dealer had a trade in policy. I am in need of a pair of 803D. I owuld have gladly traded up my N804 for 803D when they came out. Oh, well....

[dmccombs]

Scanido and Rebelman,

It sounds like we have the same speaker setup now (803s up front, HTM3s ceneter, and 804s rears), unless Rebelman has upgraded.

I didn't upgrade because the 804s were visually too small for the HTM3s, but I agree that soundwise, the 803s sound closer to the HTM3 than the 804s do. I know that the HTM3 drivers match the 804s, but maybe it is the cabinet configuration or speaker placement. The HTM3 just sounds fuller like the 803s. Any thoughts on this?

BTW, are you putting your 804s on any sort of stand in the rear? I need to get mine up about 18" to get over a high back couch.

Regards,
Darrell

[scanido]

Congrats on your purchase scanido, you have done well. Here is a post I made almost two years ago. I think you will find it reafirms your decision and that there others that feel just as you do. Contrary to your comment on the other forum, I think your decision to pick the 803S was for all the RIGHT reasons. :T

Definately agree Rebelman! Your post actually swayed me in the right direction!

[scanido]

Scanido and Rebelman,

It sounds like we have the same speaker setup now (803s up front, HTM3s ceneter, and 804s rears), unless Rebelman has upgraded.

I didn't upgrade because the 804s were visually too small for the HTM3s, but I agree that soundwise, the 803s sound closer to the HTM3 than the 804s do. I know that the HTM3 drivers match the 804s, but maybe it is the cabinet configuration or speaker placement. The HTM3 just sounds fuller like the 803s. Any thoughts on this?

BTW, are you putting your 804s on any sort of stand in the rear? I need to get mine up about 18" to get over a high back couch.

Regards,
Darrell

Don't have 804S anymore, but I may consider them for rears when the time comes.

I feel the same about the 803S and HTM3s combo. I tried numerous placements with the HTM3S, away from the wall, higher from the shelf, etc and the bass always felt slightly louder and tighter than the 804S. Of course i ran the calibration many times to make sure. Now that i have the 803S, the front soundstage is more seamless and the htm3S disappears with the mains.

[ninja12]

Don't do this to me. I have the 804S, and I am so on the fence to upgrade to the 803S. The wife has given me the go ahead. Man, decisions. Scandio, is there really that much of a difference in the sound between the 803S and the 804S?

[dmccombs]

Ninja,

I will throw my 2 cents in. The difference you hear will depend on your speaker placement and electronics. I wrote more in post #33 of this thread.

Regards,
Darrell

[scanido]

Ninja,

There's good ground covered in this thread to help with your decision. Suffice it to say, i found the 803S worth it!